"DSK" wrote in message
.. .

Maxprop wrote:
Wooden boat fanatics are just that: fanatics. They love wood & boats,
and when combined . . .


For many, it does have aspects of a cult.


That said, there is no way in hell that a boat with a wood hull and/or
deck will require no more maintenance than a similar glass boat. He
probably had an older wooden boat he wanted to sell. :-)


If you're talking about a wooden boat that is sound, and maintained
efficiently in decent working shape, and don't include long-term things
like ripping the seams & refastening, then it is no more work than to
maintain a fiberglass boat of similar size & style in high-gloss yachtie
condition.

It takes about two or three hours to buff the gelcoated topsides of a 36'
fiberglass boat. It takes no time at all if the boat is Awlgripped. The
same process of a wooden boat with topside paint (not linear polyurethane,
which is rare on wooden boats) is generally not necessary annually, but such
boats will typically need repainting about every 4 or 5 years to keep them
looking bristol. A sanding and painting, if properly done, will take well
over 20 hours or preparation and another 4-6 hours of masking and painting.
Glass (4-5 years): up to 15 hours maximum, Wood (same period): 24 hours
minimum.

Brightwork: most recent glass boats have none. Most wooden boats have
acres.
Bottom: glass: reapplying antifouling annually, or not if well coated with
Teflon paint or ablative, wood: sanding and painting annually, and an
occasional need to repair small areas of defective caulking, if the boat is
carvel planked. If the boat is cold-molded, it may take no more time than
glass.

Deck and house: glass: virtually no work required, beyond a bath, wood:
similar, except when the Dynel or canvas needs to be replaced, which is a
multi-week job encompassing many hours. Then painting is necessary. If the
deck is wood (common with wooden boats, rare with fiberglass) a certain
minimum amount of maintenance is necessary annually.


I generally say that maintaining a wooden boat is 10% more work than
fiberglass, and having owned several of each, feel confident this can
backed with figures. The difference is that the wooden boat will have
certain labor & skill intensive things done to it every ten years or so,
by which time you will probably have sold it to somebody else.

You can't simply dismiss those maintenance items. Amortized over a number
of years, the labor time is greatly skewed against the wooden boat.


The biggest difference between fiberglass and wood is the consequence of
neglect. If you neglect a fiberglass boat, you have a mess to clean up. If
you neglect a wooden boat, you have mulch.

I agree with your last sentence. Most wooden boats are neglected, the
owners believing someone else will bring them back somewhere down the road.
Then the labor and costs are astronomical.

Max

If you're talking about a wooden boat that is sound, and maintained
efficiently in decent working shape, and don't include long-term things
like ripping the seams & refastening, then it is no more work than to
maintain a fiberglass boat of similar size & style in high-gloss yachtie
condition.


Maxprop wrote:
It takes about two or three hours to buff the gelcoated topsides of a 36'
fiberglass boat. It takes no time at all if the boat is Awlgripped. The
same process of a wooden boat with topside paint (not linear polyurethane,
which is rare on wooden boats)

That's because it's unwise to put on an expensive finish
with higher hardness than the underlying surface.

..... is generally not necessary annually, but such
boats will typically need repainting about every 4 or 5 years to keep them
looking bristol.

Depends on the environment, how it's cleaned, etc etc.

... A sanding and painting, if properly done, will take well
over 20 hours or preparation and another 4-6 hours of masking and painting.
Glass (4-5 years): up to 15 hours maximum, Wood (same period): 24 hours
minimum.


I disagree that wood will need repainting every 4 ~ 5 years.

Brightwork: most recent glass boats have none. Most wooden boats have
acres.

"Most"?? There is no need for a wooden boat to have any
varnish. It's optional. For a fair comparison, why not try a
fiberglass boat like a Tayana with a wooden boat like a
skipjack? Or, since wooden production boats averaged much
smaller, why not compare a 40+ foot fiberglass production
boat (average size) with a 26 ~ 30 foot wooden boat?

Bottom: glass: reapplying antifouling annually, or not if well coated with
Teflon paint or ablative, wood: sanding and painting annually, and an
occasional need to repair small areas of defective caulking, if the boat is
carvel planked. If the boat is cold-molded, it may take no more time than
glass.


You're right that seams often need attention, but a wooden
boat bottom does not need to be sanded every year unless
you're a fanatic. And I stated at the outset that fanatacism
should be excluded from this comparison.


Deck and house: glass: virtually no work required, beyond a bath,

Really? No recaulking of ports & hatches? No rebedding of
deck fittings? No gel coat touch-up? No replacing crazed Lexan?

wood:
similar, except when the Dynel or canvas needs to be replaced, which is a
multi-week job encompassing many hours. Then painting is necessary. If the
deck is wood (common with wooden boats, rare with fiberglass) a certain
minimum amount of maintenance is necessary annually.


I dunno, we own a fiberglass boat that had a teak deck until
quite recently. Right now I'm hopefully about 3/5 thru
replacing it with fiberglass, including rebuilding a few
sections with rotten core. How's that for your comparison?



I generally say that maintaining a wooden boat is 10% more work than
fiberglass, and having owned several of each, feel confident this can
backed with figures. The difference is that the wooden boat will have
certain labor & skill intensive things done to it every ten years or so,
by which time you will probably have sold it to somebody else.


You can't simply dismiss those maintenance items.

I wasn't intending to dismiss them, just point out that the
scary things about wood boat ownership are not monthly
occurences.

.... Amortized over a number
of years, the labor time is greatly skewed against the wooden boat.


I'd agree that it's skewed, but if the fiberglass boat is
kept truly Bristol, then I'd say it's not "greatly" skewed
at all.

The biggest difference is that you can defer maintenance on
the fiberglass boat, and schedule tasks at a convenient
time... very important, almost sacrosanct, in this culture.
A wooden boat sets it's own schedule, and if you don't do
the jobs that need to be done before they really need it,
then you've increased your work tremendously.

This is a foreign concept for modern Americans.


... Most wooden boats are neglected

Most boats are neglected, period.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"DSK" wrote in message
. ..
If you're talking about a wooden boat that is sound, and maintained
efficiently in decent working shape, and don't include long-term things
like ripping the seams & refastening, then it is no more work than to
maintain a fiberglass boat of similar size & style in high-gloss yachtie
condition.


Maxprop wrote:
It takes about two or three hours to buff the gelcoated topsides of a 36'
fiberglass boat. It takes no time at all if the boat is Awlgripped. The
same process of a wooden boat with topside paint (not linear
polyurethane, which is rare on wooden boats)

That's because it's unwise to put on an expensive finish with higher
hardness than the underlying surface.

Right, but it's done more often these days than one would expect.

..... is generally not necessary annually, but such boats will typically
need repainting about every 4 or 5 years to keep them looking bristol.

Depends on the environment, how it's cleaned, etc etc.

Up here in the GLs it probably isn't required as frequently as in the south,
but topside paint will dull or chalk with no care, and it will become very
thin if buffed annually. It also tends to crack or craze when applied over
wood.

... A sanding and painting, if properly done, will take well over 20
hours or preparation and another 4-6 hours of masking and painting. Glass
(4-5 years): up to 15 hours maximum, Wood (same period): 24 hours
minimum.


I disagree that wood will need repainting every 4 ~ 5 years.

It all depends upon how bristol you want your wooden boat to appear. If you
don't repaint at least twice every decade you don't stand a chance of having
topsides as glossy or smooth as those of a well-buffed glass boat.

Brightwork: most recent glass boats have none. Most wooden boats have
acres.

"Most"?? There is no need for a wooden boat to have any varnish. It's
optional. For a fair comparison, why not try a fiberglass boat like a
Tayana with a wooden boat like a skipjack?

I think we were talking about *average* boats. Certainly a skipjack is not
typical (unless you live on or near the Chesapeake), nor is a Tayana or Hans
Christian. More like wooden Cheoy Lee vs. Catalina.

Or, since wooden production boats averaged much smaller, why not compare a
40+ foot fiberglass production boat (average size) with a 26 ~ 30 foot
wooden boat?

Huh? Who said we were talking about wooden production boats? Most were
custom or semi-custom, especially in the medium to larger size ranges. And
before the mid-60s there were lots of them produced. Many aren't around any
more, but that doesn't disqualify them from the comparison, especially since
Joe was considering a larger boat than 30'.

Bottom: glass: reapplying antifouling annually, or not if well coated
with Teflon paint or ablative, wood: sanding and painting annually, and
an occasional need to repair small areas of defective caulking, if the
boat is carvel planked. If the boat is cold-molded, it may take no more
time than glass.


You're right that seams often need attention, but a wooden boat bottom
does not need to be sanded every year unless you're a fanatic. And I
stated at the outset that fanatacism should be excluded from this
comparison.

Hmm. I guess your definition of *fanatic* and mine differ. Both my wooden
boats required annual sanding to be relative smooth and free of fairly
severe paint irregularities. I will concede that many wooden boat owners
just slop on another coat of whatever paint happens to be sitting around in
cans in the garage. But those boats looked neglected topside as well, for
the most part. I guess I never thought I was fanatical about my boats. I
just wanted them to look good, if not perfect.



Deck and house: glass: virtually no work required, beyond a bath,

Really? No recaulking of ports & hatches? No rebedding of deck fittings?
No gel coat touch-up? No replacing crazed Lexan?

That falls under the heading of repairs, not routine maintenance. And those
same repairs occur with equal or increased frequency in wooden boats.


wood: similar, except when the Dynel or canvas needs to be replaced,
which is a multi-week job encompassing many hours. Then painting is
necessary. If the deck is wood (common with wooden boats, rare with
fiberglass) a certain minimum amount of maintenance is necessary
annually.


I dunno, we own a fiberglass boat that had a teak deck until quite
recently. Right now I'm hopefully about 3/5 thru replacing it with
fiberglass, including rebuilding a few sections with rotten core. How's
that for your comparison?

The point was that wood decks are fairly rare in glass boats, but ubiquitous
on wooden boats. Once again, the glass boats in this comparison are
generally high production boats, such as Catalinas, Hunters, Beneteaus,
Jenneaus, Pearsons, Ericsons, etc. Not a whole lot of wood decks among
those.



I generally say that maintaining a wooden boat is 10% more work than
fiberglass, and having owned several of each, feel confident this can
backed with figures. The difference is that the wooden boat will have
certain labor & skill intensive things done to it every ten years or so,
by which time you will probably have sold it to somebody else.


You can't simply dismiss those maintenance items.

I wasn't intending to dismiss them, just point out that the scary things
about wood boat ownership are not monthly occurences.

But when they do occur they can be very scary. At least the yard bills can
induce coronaries.

.... Amortized over a number of years, the labor time is greatly skewed
against the wooden boat.


I'd agree that it's skewed, but if the fiberglass boat is kept truly
Bristol, then I'd say it's not "greatly" skewed at all.

The biggest difference is that you can defer maintenance on the fiberglass
boat, and schedule tasks at a convenient time... very important, almost
sacrosanct, in this culture. A wooden boat sets it's own schedule, and if
you don't do the jobs that need to be done before they really need it,
then you've increased your work tremendously.

This is a foreign concept for modern Americans.

Which supports my original point. Pay me now, or pay me later is the mantra
of wooden boat ownership. A neglected fiberglass boat can be brought back
to a fairly clean and attractive level of condition with some buffing,
cleaning, and minimal repairs. A neglected wooden boat will require
immensely more time and money to accomplish the same task. Replacing a
rotting ply cabin sole in a Catalina is a far less arduous task than
replacing numerous floors, frames, and planks in a wooden boat.



... Most wooden boats are neglected

Most boats are neglected, period.

To some degree, perhaps, but most owners do the minimally-required
maintenance at least. The engines get their oil changed and their filters
replaced, the boats generally get bathed annually, if not weekly, leaks get
fixed, and broken or worn-out parts and electronics get replaced as needed.
More boats get some basic level of cosmetic maintenance than those that
don't, at least around here.

The annual Wooden Boat Show, sponsored by Wooden Boat magazine, was at South
Haven, MI, a few years back. I attended two seminars at that show--one
about dinghy building, and the other about wooden boat maintenance. The
instructor in the second one summed it up best when he opened his talk with,
"If you dislike working on boats, buy something made of plastic."

Max

..... is generally not necessary annually, but such boats will typically
need repainting about every 4 or 5 years to keep them looking bristol.

Depends on the environment, how it's cleaned, etc etc.

Maxprop wrote:
Up here in the GLs it probably isn't required as frequently as in the south,
but topside paint will dull or chalk with no care, and it will become very
thin if buffed annually. It also tends to crack or craze when applied over
wood.


Right, and I think that's because of heat expansion/contraction.


... A sanding and painting, if properly done, will take well over 20
hours or preparation and another 4-6 hours of masking and painting. Glass
(4-5 years): up to 15 hours maximum, Wood (same period): 24 hours
minimum.


I disagree that wood will need repainting every 4 ~ 5 years.


It all depends upon how bristol you want your wooden boat to appear. If you
don't repaint at least twice every decade you don't stand a chance of having
topsides as glossy or smooth as those of a well-buffed glass boat.


Well, it would take a full-time staff to keep even a medium
size wooden boat to look totally gold-plated & spit-shined.
At some point, you have to be a realist even with fiberglass
boats.




Brightwork: most recent glass boats have none. Most wooden boats have
acres.

"Most"?? There is no need for a wooden boat to have any varnish. It's
optional. For a fair comparison, why not try a fiberglass boat like a
Tayana with a wooden boat like a skipjack?


I think we were talking about *average* boats. Certainly a skipjack is not
typical (unless you live on or near the Chesapeake), nor is a Tayana or Hans
Christian. More like wooden Cheoy Lee vs. Catalina.


And that's a matter of marketing, but isn't inherent in a
wooden boat. Lots of old Herrshoffs & Hinckleys have
relatively little brightwork.


Or, since wooden production boats averaged much smaller, why not compare a
40+ foot fiberglass production boat (average size) with a 26 ~ 30 foot
wooden boat?


Huh? Who said we were talking about wooden production boats? Most were
custom or semi-custom, especially in the medium to larger size ranges.

Not really. Herreshoff & Nevins had fairly modern production
lines, not to mention Beetle & Concordia. They couldn't pump
them out in the mass numbers, nor would there have been a
market to accept that many. But they were just as much a
mass-produced commodity as Hunters & Beneteaus.

Many fewer survived, which is in the nature of wooden boats,
so those still around are rare classics.





You're right that seams often need attention, but a wooden boat bottom
does not need to be sanded every year unless you're a fanatic. And I
stated at the outset that fanatacism should be excluded from this
comparison.


Hmm. I guess your definition of *fanatic* and mine differ. Both my wooden
boats required annual sanding to be relative smooth and free of fairly
severe paint irregularities.

???

Are you talking about taking them down to wood? Or just
taking off overcoating? Sounds like you might have had some
problem I'm not familiar with.


.... I will concede that many wooden boat owners
just slop on another coat of whatever paint happens to be sitting around in
cans in the garage. But those boats looked neglected topside as well, for
the most part. I guess I never thought I was fanatical about my boats. I
just wanted them to look good, if not perfect.


It's a boat, it's never perfect. And since I have raced
almost every boat I've ever owned, the bottom & the rig
always get lots of attention. But a wooden boat doesn't take
that much more care of the bottom, or shouldn't IMHO.


Deck and house: glass: virtually no work required, beyond a bath,

Really? No recaulking of ports & hatches? No rebedding of deck fittings?
No gel coat touch-up? No replacing crazed Lexan?


That falls under the heading of repairs, not routine maintenance.

And I thought part of your point was that wooden boats need
regular repairs & fiberglass boats don't?



wood: similar, except when the Dynel or canvas needs to be replaced,
which is a multi-week job encompassing many hours. Then painting is
necessary. If the deck is wood (common with wooden boats, rare with
fiberglass) a certain minimum amount of maintenance is necessary
annually.


I dunno, we own a fiberglass boat that had a teak deck until quite
recently. Right now I'm hopefully about 3/5 thru replacing it with
fiberglass, including rebuilding a few sections with rotten core. How's
that for your comparison?


The point was that wood decks are fairly rare in glass boats, but ubiquitous
on wooden boats. Once again, the glass boats in this comparison are
generally high production boats, such as Catalinas, Hunters, Beneteaus,
Jenneaus, Pearsons, Ericsons, etc. Not a whole lot of wood decks among
those.


Many Jeanneaus have teak decks. In fact I think it's a more
expensive option to get the fake plastic teak...

Anyway repair of deck core is a common issue for fiberglass
boats, so there's one more item to level the playing field.
And I have personally put plywood/fiberglass decks on boats
that to my knowledge have lasted 15 years with no trouble.
Not an uncommon scenario, unless you're a fanatic that has
to have either laid planks or canvas duck with *just* the
right amount of paint in it.




You can't simply dismiss those maintenance items.

I wasn't intending to dismiss them, just point out that the scary things
about wood boat ownership are not monthly occurences.


But when they do occur they can be very scary. At least the yard bills can
induce coronaries.


Agreed, if you can't do it yourself.

However I don't think that a person who can't do (or is
willing to learn) most of the work himself should not have a
boat, wood or fiberglass. Unless you don't mind pouring out
money like water so as to have a nice toy.


.... Pay me now, or pay me later is the mantra
of wooden boat ownership. A neglected fiberglass boat can be brought back
to a fairly clean and attractive level of condition with some buffing,
cleaning, and minimal repairs. A neglected wooden boat will require
immensely more time and money to accomplish the same task.

If it can be done at all.

At some point, the only thing that can be done is get a team
of marine archeologists to build a new boat piece by piece
in the place of the old one, and pretend it's the same
boat... or take out in the back yard and use as a
self-mulching planter.


... Most wooden boats are neglected

Most boats are neglected, period.


To some degree, perhaps, but most owners do the minimally-required
maintenance at least.

Right, and that's what skews the *perception* against wooden
boats.

To repeat- to keep a wooden boat in good working order is
not much more work than to keep a fiberglass boat of similar
size & equipage in Bristol shape.

You keep trying to bring up major repairs, which fiberglass
boats need too (and I'd one HECK of a lot rather saw wood
than grind fiberglass), or say that fiberglass can be neglected.



The annual Wooden Boat Show, sponsored by Wooden Boat magazine, was at South
Haven, MI, a few years back. I attended two seminars at that show--one
about dinghy building, and the other about wooden boat maintenance. The
instructor in the second one summed it up best when he opened his talk with,
"If you dislike working on boats, buy something made of plastic."


Like a Corvette?

One thing I wanted to say- you mentioned the sounds of
sailing a wooden boat: it's very different from any other,
and it's awesome. My boats didn't creak very much, but the
sound of water rushing by the hull was very different, and
there was a sort of purring as the rig & hull transferred
stresses back & forth. A lovely addition to the sailing
experience.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"DSK" wrote in message
t...

Hmm. I guess your definition of *fanatic* and mine differ. Both my
wooden boats required annual sanding to be relative smooth and free of
fairly severe paint irregularities.

???

Are you talking about taking them down to wood? Or just taking off
overcoating? Sounds like you might have had some problem I'm not familiar
with.

Unlike fiberglass hulls, wood ones (not cold-molded, however) soak up quite
a bit of water each season. You, of course, are aware of this. I'm sure
you've seen wooden hulls below the waterline after hauling that have lost
paint from the planks in areas where the wood soaked up water at the
interfaced between the wood and paint. Many owners just slop on more paint
next spring, but I sanded the wood and paint each spring before repainting.
My boats generally had about 85% adhering paint and 15% paint loss leaving
bare wood.


.... I will concede that many wooden boat owners just slop on another
coat of whatever paint happens to be sitting around in cans in the
garage. But those boats looked neglected topside as well, for the most
part. I guess I never thought I was fanatical about my boats. I just
wanted them to look good, if not perfect.


It's a boat, it's never perfect. And since I have raced almost every boat
I've ever owned, the bottom & the rig always get lots of attention. But a
wooden boat doesn't take that much more care of the bottom, or shouldn't
IMHO.


Deck and house: glass: virtually no work required, beyond a bath,

Really? No recaulking of ports & hatches? No rebedding of deck fittings?
No gel coat touch-up? No replacing crazed Lexan?


That falls under the heading of repairs, not routine maintenance.

And I thought part of your point was that wooden boats need regular
repairs & fiberglass boats don't?

My point was that wooden boats will require far more repairs and more
extensive types of repairs than fiberglass boats. Ultimately the amount and
frequency of routine and semi-routine maintenance performed on a wooden boat
will determine how extensive such repairs are. For example, if you don't
bother to paint the canvas or Dynel cover on the coach house every third
season or so, you'll wind up replacing the covering material more
frequently, or at least have to put up with leaks and cracked/crazed
covering plus the subsequent underlying rot of the wood. It's pay me now or
pay me later. I'm unaware of any fiberglass boats that need the coach roof
painted periodically.



wood: similar, except when the Dynel or canvas needs to be replaced,
which is a multi-week job encompassing many hours. Then painting is
necessary. If the deck is wood (common with wooden boats, rare with
fiberglass) a certain minimum amount of maintenance is necessary
annually.


I dunno, we own a fiberglass boat that had a teak deck until quite
recently. Right now I'm hopefully about 3/5 thru replacing it with
fiberglass, including rebuilding a few sections with rotten core. How's
that for your comparison?


The point was that wood decks are fairly rare in glass boats, but
ubiquitous on wooden boats. Once again, the glass boats in this
comparison are generally high production boats, such as Catalinas,
Hunters, Beneteaus, Jenneaus, Pearsons, Ericsons, etc. Not a whole lot
of wood decks among those.


Many Jeanneaus have teak decks. In fact I think it's a more expensive
option to get the fake plastic teak...

Anyway repair of deck core is a common issue for fiberglass boats, so
there's one more item to level the playing field.

To some degree. My boat has Airex foam coring, thus no moisture between the
laminates at all. I'm surprised that so many builders still use end-grain
balsa and plywood core material.

And I have personally put plywood/fiberglass decks on boats that to my
knowledge have lasted 15 years with no trouble. Not an uncommon scenario,
unless you're a fanatic that has to have either laid planks or canvas duck
with *just* the right amount of paint in it.




You can't simply dismiss those maintenance items.

I wasn't intending to dismiss them, just point out that the scary things
about wood boat ownership are not monthly occurences.


But when they do occur they can be very scary. At least the yard bills
can induce coronaries.


Agreed, if you can't do it yourself.

However I don't think that a person who can't do (or is willing to learn)
most of the work himself should not have a boat, wood or fiberglass.
Unless you don't mind pouring out money like water so as to have a nice
toy.


.... Pay me now, or pay me later is the mantra of wooden boat ownership.
A neglected fiberglass boat can be brought back to a fairly clean and
attractive level of condition with some buffing, cleaning, and minimal
repairs. A neglected wooden boat will require immensely more time and
money to accomplish the same task.

If it can be done at all.

At some point, the only thing that can be done is get a team of marine
archeologists to build a new boat piece by piece in the place of the old
one, and pretend it's the same boat... or take out in the back yard and
use as a self-mulching planter.


... Most wooden boats are neglected

Most boats are neglected, period.


To some degree, perhaps, but most owners do the minimally-required
maintenance at least.

Right, and that's what skews the *perception* against wooden boats.

To repeat- to keep a wooden boat in good working order is not much more
work than to keep a fiberglass boat of similar size & equipage in Bristol
shape.

You keep trying to bring up major repairs, which fiberglass boats need too
(and I'd one HECK of a lot rather saw wood than grind fiberglass), or say
that fiberglass can be neglected.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this point.




The annual Wooden Boat Show, sponsored by Wooden Boat magazine, was at
South Haven, MI, a few years back. I attended two seminars at that
show--one about dinghy building, and the other about wooden boat
maintenance. The instructor in the second one summed it up best when he
opened his talk with, "If you dislike working on boats, buy something
made of plastic."


Like a Corvette?

One thing I wanted to say- you mentioned the sounds of sailing a wooden
boat: it's very different from any other, and it's awesome. My boats
didn't creak very much, but the sound of water rushing by the hull was
very different, and there was a sort of purring as the rig & hull
transferred stresses back & forth. A lovely addition to the sailing
experience.

My current boat is largely silent through the water. It does create a
modest bow wave, but it's too far forward to be heard well. I really miss
the sounds from the wooden boats. Once, on a trip back from Beaver Island
on our last wooden ketch, I went below to take a nap while my wife took the
helm. I found I couldn't sleep, even though I was exhausted, primarily
because I was so entranced with the creaking and groaning of the hull as it
moved along in 18kts. of wind. I'll never forget that experience.

Go ahead and take the last response. I think we've flogged this dead horse
sufficiently.

Max

Wow what a small world, I used to call Ghost... Beaver island. Did I
ever tell you about Margo the Russian car dealer? She used to squish my
face so hard into her vagina I thought my tounge was going to poke out
her ass. Was she hot. After 42 sessions with her I was creeking and
groaning like your ol wood boat Max.

She gave me the herpies see:
http://members.aol.com/bobsprit/images/meme.jpg

Just under my lushious puffy russian pleasin lips you can see my scar
of conquest.

RB
35s5 A Beavers Nest
NY