Teaching the Group about Boats
 

As I'm soon to be a published authority on boats and boat buying, I
think I'll do the group a service and teach you all a bit about boats
and "quality." 99% of what you know is wrong, based on hearsay and
rarely relevant to actual sailing.

Catalina vs. Tartan
About the same quality. This is NOT to say that the Tartan doesn't have
an edge in fit and finish or that the plumbing specs are a bit higher.
They are. But in the REAL WORLD of how almost all of us use our boats,
the Catalina does everything the Tartan does. In fact, for just about
ANYONE, the Catalina will offer a more comfortable boat for the family.
The sad fact is that Tartan needs some serious marketing to push their
pretty hulls. They need to create an illusion of quality when their
boats are truly matched or even outmatched by lower cost high volume
builders. Stepping aboard a Tartan 34 a few months ago, I found it to
be edging on awful for living space. Fit and finish, in spite of the
rep was no better than my old C&C 32. It was a whole lot less fun to
sail than the 35s5. So why buy it? So you can tell your friends you own
a Tartan?

Beneteau 35s5 vs. Swan 36
Yep. That's right. I dare! The Swan 36 is a beautiful boat. Stepping
aboard a rather tired example I could see why people love them.
Beautiful, fast and a sweet interior. Sadly, the interior had no place
for a tall person to sleep. The head was tiny. Designed as a family
boat, there was still a lack of innovation in her living spaces. Did
you know that Swan built the 36 hull in the same manner as the 35s5 and
even the deck/hull joint is the same? Both the Swan and 35s5 are quick
boats. For the coastal cruiser the Swan 36 offered nothing but less
comfort underway compared to the 35s5, unless name dropping is more
important to you.

Nordica 30 vs. Island Packet 35
Yup...I dare again. If any of you actually looked into the Nordica,
you'd know that she's strictly a low end boat, costing much less than
her competition. As noted by a certain owner, her interior is not well
fit. Still, for many thousands less than the IP 35 you'll have a boat
pretty much capable of the same cruising.

Now...what most of the numbnuts here don't realize is that my 35s5 was
more expensive than the Tartan and Sabres of her day. She was built and
designed to be UP-market of them. And certainly well up-market of
Catalina and Pearson. Does that make her a "better" boat? Hell no.
She's only better if she fits your needs. If you're over 6 feet tall, a
Swan 36 isn't better than a Hunter 37 for cruising, no way no how
(Though I'd pick neither). If you can't see that, then you're just
caught up in the name game. Pay for differences that MATTER or you're
just another victim of marketing.
Folks like Doug and Sloco can read all the magazines they want, but
when you've interviewed more than 20 surveyors you start to get a sense
that most issues of production boat quality are based on marketing and
word of mouth that may not fairly represent the facts. Case in point:
Virtually EVERY surveyor scoffed at the idea of a Island Packet being
"better" built than a Catalina. "Better for what?" Came the inevitable
response. The Catalina can go anywhere, just like the IP, and might get
you there in better shape too.

RB
35s5
NY

Teaching the Group about Boats
 

Five star troll!

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message
oups.com...

As I'm soon to be a published authority on boats and boat buying, I
think I'll do the group a service and teach you all a bit about boats
and "quality." 99% of what you know is wrong, based on hearsay and
rarely relevant to actual sailing.

Catalina vs. Tartan
About the same quality. This is NOT to say that the Tartan doesn't have
an edge in fit and finish or that the plumbing specs are a bit higher.
They are. But in the REAL WORLD of how almost all of us use our boats,
the Catalina does everything the Tartan does. In fact, for just about
ANYONE, the Catalina will offer a more comfortable boat for the family.
The sad fact is that Tartan needs some serious marketing to push their
pretty hulls. They need to create an illusion of quality when their
boats are truly matched or even outmatched by lower cost high volume
builders. Stepping aboard a Tartan 34 a few months ago, I found it to
be edging on awful for living space. Fit and finish, in spite of the
rep was no better than my old C&C 32. It was a whole lot less fun to
sail than the 35s5. So why buy it? So you can tell your friends you own
a Tartan?

Beneteau 35s5 vs. Swan 36
Yep. That's right. I dare! The Swan 36 is a beautiful boat. Stepping
aboard a rather tired example I could see why people love them.
Beautiful, fast and a sweet interior. Sadly, the interior had no place
for a tall person to sleep. The head was tiny. Designed as a family
boat, there was still a lack of innovation in her living spaces. Did
you know that Swan built the 36 hull in the same manner as the 35s5 and
even the deck/hull joint is the same? Both the Swan and 35s5 are quick
boats. For the coastal cruiser the Swan 36 offered nothing but less
comfort underway compared to the 35s5, unless name dropping is more
important to you.

Nordica 30 vs. Island Packet 35
Yup...I dare again. If any of you actually looked into the Nordica,
you'd know that she's strictly a low end boat, costing much less than
her competition. As noted by a certain owner, her interior is not well
fit. Still, for many thousands less than the IP 35 you'll have a boat
pretty much capable of the same cruising.

Now...what most of the numbnuts here don't realize is that my 35s5 was
more expensive than the Tartan and Sabres of her day. She was built and
designed to be UP-market of them. And certainly well up-market of
Catalina and Pearson. Does that make her a "better" boat? Hell no.
She's only better if she fits your needs. If you're over 6 feet tall, a
Swan 36 isn't better than a Hunter 37 for cruising, no way no how
(Though I'd pick neither). If you can't see that, then you're just
caught up in the name game. Pay for differences that MATTER or you're
just another victim of marketing.
Folks like Doug and Sloco can read all the magazines they want, but
when you've interviewed more than 20 surveyors you start to get a sense
that most issues of production boat quality are based on marketing and
word of mouth that may not fairly represent the facts. Case in point:
Virtually EVERY surveyor scoffed at the idea of a Island Packet being
"better" built than a Catalina. "Better for what?" Came the inevitable
response. The Catalina can go anywhere, just like the IP, and might get
you there in better shape too.

RB
35s5
NY

Teaching the Group about Boats
 

Five star troll!


Even more so since a Hunter 37 can cruise around the world just fine.
Depending on the weather, it can also do it faster and in greater
comfort. All production boats are very close in quality.
Period.


RB
35s5
NY

Teaching the Group about Boats
 

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message
ups.com...
Five star troll!


Even more so since a Hunter 37 can cruise around the world just fine.
Depending on the weather, it can also do it faster and in greater
comfort. All production boats are very close in quality.
Period.

This is what is amazing. What you said is true. All you do is emphasize how
the 35s5 fits your needs very well and they go ballistic!

Perhaps the difference is is that you bought your boat to fullfill a
functional purpose, whereas others buy them to fullfill an image or some
other bizarre need.

Form follows function.

It's your objective practicality that drives them nuts.

Amen!

Carry on!

Glory!

Teaching the Group about Boats
 

whereas others buy them to fullfill an image or some
other bizarre need.

Bizarre is right!
On idiot claims he doesn't cruise, then buys a Express 30 telling
everyone how nice the cabin is. Still no nice pics of the Express 30
interior to be found. This guy certainly had better boats to suit his
type of sailing.

Another idiot takes a small, but tidy sum and buys a TRAWLER, fer
cripes sake!

Another fool, claiming to be a sailor, runs out and spends on a
Catalina 28. That has to be among the dullest boats ever designed.

Yet another clown admits his PDQ 36 is now overkill (and still claiming
he wished for the bigger one!). He also says he motors when doing less
than 5 knots and sails small boats when he wants "sailing fun!" Holy
jumping jelly beans, Batman!

RB
35s5
NY

Teaching the Group about Boats
 

Capt. Rob wrote:
Five star troll!


Even more so since a Hunter 37 can cruise around the world just fine.
Depending on the weather, it can also do it faster and in greater
comfort. All production boats are very close in quality.
Period.

Low quality, built to a price point.


RB
35s5
NY

Teaching the Group about Boats
 

Low quality, built to a price point.


All production boats are built to a price point. The problem is a false
perception that a smaller builder might produce better boats. The
smaller builder will usually pay more for everything used to construct
a boat. Their best course of action for sales is to proclaim there boat
is "better." But how are they better? My 35s5 looks as good or better
than most Tartans. J-Boats and C&Cs we saw. If there was one standout
it was the Cape Dory yachts which seemed to have weathered the years
better than most other boats.
Big builders can afford to push the envelope. My 35s5 is just light
years beyond most of the boats built in the early 90s. Doug was unable
to find more than a couple of boats that combine her performance and
accomodations per foot. All he could do was post pics of boats that had
half the features.
Do features make a good boat? They do if they're important to
you...like an aft cabin and swim platform. Like a good turn of speed
and a spacious cockpit. Like a beautiful interior and head sized for
adults over 6 feet. Like shallow draft and a clear deck.

RB
35s5
NY

Teaching the Group about Boats
 

"Capt" Rob wrote:
Five star troll!


And you're interest is in trolling, because you can't sail?


Even more so since a Hunter 37 can cruise around the world just fine.

Sure, if it was packed in a nice safe & secure shipping
container.

Hunters aren't built for long term hard sailing. Stuff
starts coming apart.

.... All production boats are very close in quality.
Period.


Gary wrote:
Low quality, built to a price point.


There are some pretty good production boats, and some poor
ones; but most of the really top ones are built on order
only. Boats take a LOT of hand labor, the cheaper ones use
cheaper less skilled labor & less of it.

DSK

Teaching the Group about Boats
 

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message
oups.com...
Low quality, built to a price point.


All production boats are built to a price point. The problem is a false
perception that a smaller builder might produce better boats. The
smaller builder will usually pay more for everything used to construct
a boat.

Great point. Therefore, one should pay more for a boat from a smaller
builder to get the same quality. Or buy direct from the smaller builder. The
smaller builder usually has lower overhead costs.

Glory!

Teaching the Group about Boats
 

Hunters aren't built for long term hard sailing. Stuff
starts coming apart.



Utter nonsense....the kind of crap you hear from old dock farts. I
don't care for Hunters one bit, but we've had plenty come through our
yard as transients. Quite a few had been sailed long distances and were
just fine along with their happy owners. In fact I'm selling a Hunter
43 now that has cruised the entire coast and also made a crossing in
the late 90's. She's in A-1 shape. We have a Beneteau 38 here that has
done several crossings and a little Catalina 34 that just came back
from St. Pete's.
MOST production boats can go anywhere with a little prep and the owners
will come apart long before the boat will. Note that Doug is a
powerboater now. Nuff said.

RB
35s5
NY

Teaching the Group about Boats
 

Great point. Therefore, one should pay more for a boat from a smaller
builder to get the same quality.

Until you move up well beyond Sabres and Tartans and Island Packets,
you're certainly not getting the premium boat you might think. Don't
believe me? Go ask some insurance surveyors who've seen many of these
boats totalled out. Ask THEM how much better a Tartan is than a Hunter.
Tartan owners sure won't like the answer.

RB
35s5
NY

Teaching the Group about Boats
 

Hey Nutsy,

Who's going to Publish you?



http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage

Teaching the Group about Boats
 

Yea Beneteaus are better built. That's why they had the biggest
blister problem of any builder during the eighties and early nineties.
Thats why for years they used rivets to secure the hull to deck joint
until they started failing by the hundreds and reviewers embarassed
them into switching to bolts.

35s5 always bringing up the rear.

Teaching the Group about Boats
 

Capt. Rob wrote:
Low quality, built to a price point.


All production boats are built to a price point. The problem is a false
perception that a smaller builder might produce better boats. The
smaller builder will usually pay more for everything used to construct
a boat. Their best course of action for sales is to proclaim there boat
is "better." But how are they better? My 35s5 looks as good or better
than most Tartans. J-Boats and C&Cs we saw. If there was one standout
it was the Cape Dory yachts which seemed to have weathered the years
better than most other boats.
Big builders can afford to push the envelope. My 35s5 is just light
years beyond most of the boats built in the early 90s. Doug was unable
to find more than a couple of boats that combine her performance and
accomodations per foot. All he could do was post pics of boats that had
half the features.
Do features make a good boat? They do if they're important to
you...like an aft cabin and swim platform. Like a good turn of speed
and a spacious cockpit. Like a beautiful interior and head sized for
adults over 6 feet. Like shallow draft and a clear deck.

RB
35s5
NY

In your diatribes about boat quality you never seem to address the meat
of the matter. You go on ad infinitum about looks, speed, features and
spaciousness but poor quality boats can look good, go fast and be
spacious with lots of features. You haven't addressed the quality of
the material used in the building of the boat, used in the rig, and the
other areas where the quality boat would stand out.

It is easy to build a boat that looks good and sails well for 10 or 15
years. Particularly if the boat only sees 20-30 days a year of sailing
in the Caribbean. It is far more difficult to build a boat that
withstands live-aboard and cruising lifestyles. The wear and tear on
those boats is significantly greater.

Figure the average boat gets about 25 days of sailing a year and few of
them are 24 hour days. Most are 8 hour days. So what is that? 200
hours a year? The average recreational sailor's diesel gets about 100
hours a year. Even a poorly constructed boat will look good for a few
years with that kind of limited and light use.

Now lets use one trip from Victoria to Hawaii as the typical cruiser
(although most will sail more than that in a year). The standard route
takes about 25 days of 24 hour a day sailing. So already they have
amassed 3 time the amount of wear and tear (600 hours). It is also well
known that offshore sailing with its constant motion is far harder on
gear than typical coastal cruising where the skipper picks his weather
window. Ergo the 600 hours has been harder (per hour) on the running
gear than the coastal cruising was in the other example.

The newer Benehuntalina may very well handle the challenges of offshore
sailing but their life span will not be that of a better quality boat.
In order to take them offshore they typically need lots of upgrades to
ready them for the rigors. The quality boat will be better equipped as
constructed and last longer once out there sailing.

So in the final comparison between Benehuntalinas and the slower purpose
built cruising boats should be made on level ground. I suggest that the
reason your boat looks good is because it hasn't been sailed much and
the others that didn't were. For a realistic comparison you need to
look at boats of a similar age with the same amount of ocean miles.
That is where the Compacs, Valiants, Vancouvers, Cape Dorys, Albergs and
other heavy built boats come out way ahead.

Gaz

Teaching the Group about Boats
 

"Gary" wrote in message
news:9ogqf.157589$ki.23303@pd7tw2no...
Capt. Rob wrote:
Low quality, built to a price point.


All production boats are built to a price point. The problem is a false
perception that a smaller builder might produce better boats. The
smaller builder will usually pay more for everything used to construct
a boat. Their best course of action for sales is to proclaim there boat
is "better." But how are they better? My 35s5 looks as good or better
than most Tartans. J-Boats and C&Cs we saw. If there was one standout
it was the Cape Dory yachts which seemed to have weathered the years
better than most other boats.
Big builders can afford to push the envelope. My 35s5 is just light
years beyond most of the boats built in the early 90s. Doug was unable
to find more than a couple of boats that combine her performance and
accomodations per foot. All he could do was post pics of boats that had
half the features.
Do features make a good boat? They do if they're important to
you...like an aft cabin and swim platform. Like a good turn of speed
and a spacious cockpit. Like a beautiful interior and head sized for
adults over 6 feet. Like shallow draft and a clear deck.

RB
35s5
NY

In your diatribes about boat quality you never seem to address the meat
of the matter. You go on ad infinitum about looks, speed, features and
spaciousness but poor quality boats can look good, go fast and be
spacious with lots of features. You haven't addressed the quality of
the material used in the building of the boat, used in the rig, and the
other areas where the quality boat would stand out.

It is easy to build a boat that looks good and sails well for 10 or 15
years. Particularly if the boat only sees 20-30 days a year of sailing
in the Caribbean. It is far more difficult to build a boat that
withstands live-aboard and cruising lifestyles. The wear and tear on
those boats is significantly greater.

Figure the average boat gets about 25 days of sailing a year and few of
them are 24 hour days. Most are 8 hour days. So what is that? 200
hours a year? The average recreational sailor's diesel gets about 100
hours a year. Even a poorly constructed boat will look good for a few
years with that kind of limited and light use.

Now lets use one trip from Victoria to Hawaii as the typical cruiser
(although most will sail more than that in a year). The standard route
takes about 25 days of 24 hour a day sailing. So already they have
amassed 3 time the amount of wear and tear (600 hours). It is also well
known that offshore sailing with its constant motion is far harder on
gear than typical coastal cruising where the skipper picks his weather
window. Ergo the 600 hours has been harder (per hour) on the running
gear than the coastal cruising was in the other example.

The newer Benehuntalina may very well handle the challenges of offshore
sailing but their life span will not be that of a better quality boat.
In order to take them offshore they typically need lots of upgrades to
ready them for the rigors. The quality boat will be better equipped as
constructed and last longer once out there sailing.

So in the final comparison between Benehuntalinas and the slower purpose
built cruising boats should be made on level ground. I suggest that the
reason your boat looks good is because it hasn't been sailed much and
the others that didn't were. For a realistic comparison you need to
look at boats of a similar age with the same amount of ocean miles.
That is where the Compacs, Valiants, Vancouvers, Cape Dorys, Albergs and
other heavy built boats come out way ahead.

Gaz

Do ANY of those boats have a swim platform?

An aft cabin?

PHRF of less than 130?

hmmmm?

Teaching the Group about Boats
 

Hunters aren't built for long term hard sailing. Stuff
starts coming apart.



Capt. Rob wrote:
Utter nonsense....the kind of crap you hear from old dock farts.

Really? I guess the several bent rudder posts & detached
bulkheads that I've seen were put there on purpose? I guess
the OEM sails of underweight material with only one reef
point are perfectly suitable?

DSK

Teaching the Group about Boats
 

"Capt" Rob wrote:
All production boats are built to a price point. The problem is a false
perception that a smaller builder might produce better boats.

It's not a problem at all, nor is it a false perception.

.... My 35s5 is just light
years beyond most of the boats built in the early 90s.

"Your" 35s5? I thought you'd pretty well admitted that this
was another empty troll?

.... Doug was unable
to find more than a couple of boats that combine her performance and
accomodations per foot.

Malarkey. Want me to publish the list again?


Gary wrote:
In your diatribes about boat quality you never seem to address the meat
of the matter. You go on ad infinitum about looks, speed, features and
spaciousness but poor quality boats can look good, go fast and be
spacious with lots of features. You haven't addressed the quality of
the material used in the building of the boat, used in the rig, and the
other areas where the quality boat would stand out.


I guess it depends on what you include in "quality." Is the
wiring fully compliant with ABYC and ABS specs? Is the hull
& deck construction robust enough to stand up to years of
hard sailing? Is the deck & rig constructed so that a lack
of perfect maintenance isn't going to cripple her in years
to come? For that matter, what about plumbing & engine
maintenance, is it easy to access all the necessary areas?



It is easy to build a boat that looks good and sails well for 10 or 15
years.

Nah, it's not really easy, but it's sure easier to build a
boat with "style" than to build one that really sails well
and holds up to serious usage.


... Particularly if the boat only sees 20-30 days a year of sailing
in the Caribbean. It is far more difficult to build a boat that
withstands live-aboard and cruising lifestyles. The wear and tear on
those boats is significantly greater.


IMHO long term cruising is hard on a boat, and should not be
confused with "liveaboard." Most people who live aboard
boats that I know of don't go anywhere very often, if ever.
The wear and tear on the boat is minimal, except for the galley.

Figure the average boat gets about 25 days of sailing a year and few of
them are 24 hour days. Most are 8 hour days. So what is that? 200
hours a year? The average recreational sailor's diesel gets about 100
hours a year. Even a poorly constructed boat will look good for a few
years with that kind of limited and light use.

Not only that, but it's in calm conditions. When boats have
stuff breaking in 40 knot winds, that's bad. When stuff is
breaking on boats less than 10 years old that have been used
lightly in calm conditions, that's really bad.



Now lets use one trip from Victoria to Hawaii as the typical cruiser
(although most will sail more than that in a year). The standard route
takes about 25 days of 24 hour a day sailing. So already they have
amassed 3 time the amount of wear and tear (600 hours). It is also well
known that offshore sailing with its constant motion is far harder on
gear than typical coastal cruising where the skipper picks his weather
window.

Especially chafe & UV exposure.

... Ergo the 600 hours has been harder (per hour) on the running
gear than the coastal cruising was in the other example.

The newer Benehuntalina may very well handle the challenges of offshore
sailing but their life span will not be that of a better quality boat.

And their life span is likely to be terminated by something
like the ports breaking out under a sea coming over the
deck, or the rudder shaft bending & locking up, if the
bulkhead tabbing doesn't break loose and start banging.

In order to take them offshore they typically need lots of upgrades to
ready them for the rigors. The quality boat will be better equipped as
constructed and last longer once out there sailing.


Not to mention that the design is oriented more towards life
under sail, or at least away from the marina & yacht club.
The BeneHuntaLina thrives close to the nursery but usually
doesn't fare well out in the jungle.

So in the final comparison between Benehuntalinas and the slower purpose
built cruising boats should be made on level ground. I suggest that the
reason your boat looks good is because it hasn't been sailed much and
the others that didn't were. For a realistic comparison you need to
look at boats of a similar age with the same amount of ocean miles. That
is where the Compacs, Valiants, Vancouvers, Cape Dorys, Albergs and
other heavy built boats come out way ahead.

Now I just have to say a little about the crab crusher
attitude... heavy is not necessarily better. A few years
back there was a big storm swept thru a cove in the Baja,
broke a bunch of cruisers loose and set them onto the beach.
An Olson 40 (California built ULDB) was among those that
broke loose, along with a Valiant and a Westsail. All three
hit the rocks, and the Westsail ended up piling onto the
Olson, which had cosmetic damage. The Valiant had some hull
damage from the rocks. The Westsail was totalled.

A boat that is well engineered and strongly built does not
have to be super heavy. In fact, under normal sailing
conditions the higher performance boat will be much handier,
easier to maneuver, as well as just plain faster.

"The only vehicle that benefits from additional unnecessary
weight is a steam roller." -Uffa Fox

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Teaching the Group about Boats
 

"The only vehicle that benefits from additional unnecessary
weight is a steam roller." -Uffa Fox

Brilliant!

Teaching the Group about Boats
 

So in the final comparison between Benehuntalinas and the slower
purpose
built cruising boats should be made on level ground. I suggest that
the
reason your boat looks good is because it hasn't been sailed much and
the others that didn't were.


All good points, Gary, but we did our homework carefuly. ALL of the
35s5's we looked at had held up as well or better than most others of
the same age. Even the heavily raced 35s5's were solid. Their interiors
and cushions had taken a beating. Expensive to replace as you well
know. There are zero cases of blister problems with the 35s5, or any
other serious problems for that matter. It's known to be a stout boat
built to a higher standard than the Oceanus series. Would the 35s5 be
my first pick for offshore sailing? No, nor would ANY of the boats in
this group.
For the sailing that most of the folks here do, a 35s5 is a better
choice and more fun to sail than their current picks.

RB
35s5
NY

Teaching the Group about Boats
 

to find more than a couple of boats that combine her performance and
accomodations per foot.


Malarkey. Want me to publish the list again?


Doug, you are a LIAR. You NEVER posted a list (outside of a few
examples) that can do what the 35s5 does at her size and price...not
even close. Only the C&C 34XL CB is a true contender.
But I'll give you yet ANOTHER chance. Here's the criteria...pretty
basic and easy to find these days if you're willing to spend 150K or
more....

34-36 foot boat built after 1988
PHRF below 140 (aprox)-quick boat)
AFT CABIN
SWIM PLATFORM
Draft under 6 feet
Cost under 75K

Go ahead, Doug. Your last list had one or more features missing from
EVERY boat. Even I could do better. Show us you're not a liar!!!

RB
35s5
NY

Teaching the Group about Boats
 

A boat that is well engineered and strongly built does not
have to be super heavy. In fact, under normal sailing
conditions the higher performance boat will be much handier,
easier to maneuver, as well as just plain faster.

Thanks, Doug. And now why don't you admit that you know NOTHING of the
35s5 First series Beneteau's. If you did, you'd know that they have no
history of problems in quite a bit of offshore sailing. No port
failures, no bulhead tabbing failures and no blisters. The discontinous
rod rigging and spars are proven after 17 years of hard sailing on
plenty of the 400 hulls, quite a few of which stood up to charter use
better than the other Beneteau's, Catalinas and Hunters. According to
several French forums, the 35s5 was essentially bulletproof in charter
and quite a few are still in business.
The 35s5 is the best sailboat here. Period.

RB
35s5
NY

Teaching the Group about Boats
 

That is where the Compacs, Valiants, Vancouvers, Cape Dorys, Albergs
and
other heavy built boats come out way ahead.


Not if you want a fun, fast ride and a shorter distance family boat.
Thats how MOST people sail and the cases where the Valiants and Cape
Dorys come out way ahead are rare at best. In most cases a 35s5 will do
everything better than the boats listed above.


RB
35s5
NY

Teaching the Group... list, enjoy
 

to find more than a couple of boats that combine her performance and
accomodations per foot.



Malarkey. Want me to publish the list again?


"Capt" Rob wrote:
Doug, you are a LIAR.

No, I'm not. Just Google it up.

... You NEVER posted a list (outside of a few
examples) that can do what the 35s5 does at her size and price...not
even close. Only the C&C 34XL CB is a true contender.

That's because you don't know beans about boats.

Starting with a list from my database of 475 racer/cruiser
type boats between 34' and 38', the Ben 35s5 was #191 for
speed. Going down the list we find a lot more with lower
PHRF ratings, so we end up with 268 boats comparable or
faster than the Ben-35s5.

Then we sort for draft, which important in a boat's
practical use. I like shallow draft myself. Unfortunately it
rules out some really nice boats that Boobsie never heard
of, like the Finngulf, Najad, CS-36, Grand Soleil, etc etc.
Now we're down to 171 boats, some of them custom designs.

Which of these boats have swim platforms? Any of them could
have, with about a weekend's worth of skilled labor (which
of course Boobsie can't supply). Many of them have open
transoms. Aft cabins? Most of them have something
comparable, and I have no way of guessing, other than to
remove boats which I know don't have one. Price? Shucks it'a
a buyers market. Besides, Boobsie is always bragging about
how rich he is. I did take off a few really high priced
boats like the Alerion Express 38 and the Morris 38.

BTW this turns out to be about 150 boats

AERODYNE 38
LUAU 350
SPARHAWK 35
SeaQuest 36
MIR 34
Cape Fear 38
TOUCAN 35
C&C 110
Spirit 37
Dehler DB-1
FINNGULF 335
THOMAS 35
Kirie Feeling 36
Bianca 360
Mirage 338
J-37 W
Olson 34
Bavaria 35 Exclusive
C&C 34R
SIROCCO 38
Kirie Elite 37
Ticon 34
Dufour 34
BENETEAU 361
Helena 38
Beneteau First 36s7
Sigma 36
OMEGA 36
Dehler DB-2
FEELING 364/1090
HUNTER Legend 37.5
Forna
J-34C
DUFOUR 35
BENETEAU FIRST 38s5
Alerion Express 38
FEELING 346 DI
NONSUCH 36
Van De Stadt 34
Express 34
HERITAGE 37 MK II
Jeanneau Sun Rise 33
Jeanneau Selection
FINNGULF 38
C&C 34+
Baltic 35
Hunter 37-2
CONTEST 36 S
ETAP 38
Hughes 38
Elan 36
HALLBERG-RASSY 34
Abbott 36
Hunter 35.5
FREEDOM 35
Santana 37
FREEDOM 36
Baltic 35 TM
OCEANIS 36 CC
MARINER POLARIS 36
JEANNEAU SUN 37.1
Orion 35/79
PEREGRINE 36
SCHOCK 34 PC
CABO RICO 38
WESTERLY OCEAN 33
HJB CUMULANT 38
Nightwind 35
ENDEAVOUR 37
Ericson 38-2 SD
Sabre 38 MKII
HUNTER 340
Morgan 364
Frers 33
Santana 35
EVASION 36
Tartan 37-3
VISION 36
Ericson 36
ISLAND PACKET 35
Peterson 34
Catalina 36 TM M
Seidlemann 37
JEANNEAU 36.2
HANS CHRISTIAN 38 MKII
CONTEST 38 S
GIBSEA 362
J-34
C&C 35-1
VICTORIA 38
Hunter 36-2 WK
SIROCCO 36
Tartan 33
Hunter 336
SUNSAIL HUNTER 336
Tartan 34
Schock 34PC
BAVARIA 36
APHRODITE 36
Beneteau 355
Avance 36
Waquiez Pretorian 35
Sweden 34
C&C 37
Sweden 36
WEST COR 30
Beneteau 35.5 W
S2 10.3
VIK 33
Scanmar 345
MOODY 376
Tartan 34-2
CENT 38
Galatea
CAL 36
O'DAY 37
DUFOUR 36 CLASSIC
C&C 36
Cal 35
CALIBER 35 LRC
SOUTHERLY 110
LITTLE HARBOR 38
Sweden 340
Elite 36
CS 34
JEANNEAU 33
Dehler 34
Soverel 37
MOOD 376
MOODY 38
GSOL 36
Seidlemann 37
Pearson 36
O'Day 35 SD
O'Day 34
O'Day 35
Scanmar 35 CC
Albin 35
Sabre 34 CB
CLEARWATER 35
Island Packet 370
Baltic 37
Scanmar 33
SPIRIT
Swan 371
Hunter 37
Islander 36
S2 11.0
CLEARWATER 36
Irwin 38 CB
FINN 351
Pearson 36-2
Waquiez 38

Teaching the Group about Boats
 

"The only vehicle that benefits from additional unnecessary
weight is a steam roller." -Uffa Fox


Bob Crantz wrote:
Brilliant!


Agreed.

I wish I'd thought of it!

DSK

Teaching the Group about Boats
 

Capt. Rob wrote:
to find more than a couple of boats that combine her performance and
accomodations per foot.



Malarkey. Want me to publish the list again?


Doug, you are a LIAR. You NEVER posted a list (outside of a few
examples) that can do what the 35s5 does at her size and price...not
even close. Only the C&C 34XL CB is a true contender.
But I'll give you yet ANOTHER chance. Here's the criteria...pretty
basic and easy to find these days if you're willing to spend 150K or
more....

34-36 foot boat built after 1988
PHRF below 140 (aprox)-quick boat)
AFT CABIN
SWIM PLATFORM
Draft under 6 feet
Cost under 75K

Go ahead, Doug. Your last list had one or more features missing from
EVERY boat. Even I could do better. Show us you're not a liar!!!

RB
35s5
NY

I just typed those parameters into Yachtworld and got 249 boats (No
PHRF) but certainly lots of boats. Even a bunch of 35s5.

Big selection of Benehuntalinas in that price range. All pretty much
the same.

Gaz

Teaching the Group about Boats
 

According to several French
forums............................................ ..

Well there you go. That settles it.

Teaching the Group... list, enjoy
 

But weed out the ones that don't have:

an aft cabin
swim platform
PHRF less than 140
cruising accomodations

"DSK" wrote in message
. ..
to find more than a couple of boats that combine her performance and
accomodations per foot.



Malarkey. Want me to publish the list again?


"Capt" Rob wrote:
Doug, you are a LIAR.

No, I'm not. Just Google it up.

... You NEVER posted a list (outside of a few
examples) that can do what the 35s5 does at her size and price...not
even close. Only the C&C 34XL CB is a true contender.

That's because you don't know beans about boats.

Starting with a list from my database of 475 racer/cruiser
type boats between 34' and 38', the Ben 35s5 was #191 for
speed. Going down the list we find a lot more with lower
PHRF ratings, so we end up with 268 boats comparable or
faster than the Ben-35s5.

Then we sort for draft, which important in a boat's
practical use. I like shallow draft myself. Unfortunately it
rules out some really nice boats that Boobsie never heard
of, like the Finngulf, Najad, CS-36, Grand Soleil, etc etc.
Now we're down to 171 boats, some of them custom designs.

Which of these boats have swim platforms? Any of them could
have, with about a weekend's worth of skilled labor (which
of course Boobsie can't supply). Many of them have open
transoms. Aft cabins? Most of them have something
comparable, and I have no way of guessing, other than to
remove boats which I know don't have one. Price? Shucks it'a
a buyers market. Besides, Boobsie is always bragging about
how rich he is. I did take off a few really high priced
boats like the Alerion Express 38 and the Morris 38.

BTW this turns out to be about 150 boats

AERODYNE 38
LUAU 350
SPARHAWK 35
SeaQuest 36
MIR 34
Cape Fear 38
TOUCAN 35
C&C 110
Spirit 37
Dehler DB-1
FINNGULF 335
THOMAS 35
Kirie Feeling 36
Bianca 360
Mirage 338
J-37 W
Olson 34
Bavaria 35 Exclusive
C&C 34R
SIROCCO 38
Kirie Elite 37
Ticon 34
Dufour 34
BENETEAU 361
Helena 38
Beneteau First 36s7
Sigma 36
OMEGA 36
Dehler DB-2
FEELING 364/1090
HUNTER Legend 37.5
Forna
J-34C
DUFOUR 35
BENETEAU FIRST 38s5
Alerion Express 38
FEELING 346 DI
NONSUCH 36
Van De Stadt 34
Express 34
HERITAGE 37 MK II
Jeanneau Sun Rise 33
Jeanneau Selection
FINNGULF 38
C&C 34+
Baltic 35
Hunter 37-2
CONTEST 36 S
ETAP 38
Hughes 38
Elan 36
HALLBERG-RASSY 34
Abbott 36
Hunter 35.5
FREEDOM 35
Santana 37
FREEDOM 36
Baltic 35 TM
OCEANIS 36 CC
MARINER POLARIS 36
JEANNEAU SUN 37.1
Orion 35/79
PEREGRINE 36
SCHOCK 34 PC
CABO RICO 38
WESTERLY OCEAN 33
HJB CUMULANT 38
Nightwind 35
ENDEAVOUR 37
Ericson 38-2 SD
Sabre 38 MKII
HUNTER 340
Morgan 364
Frers 33
Santana 35
EVASION 36
Tartan 37-3
VISION 36
Ericson 36
ISLAND PACKET 35
Peterson 34
Catalina 36 TM M
Seidlemann 37
JEANNEAU 36.2
HANS CHRISTIAN 38 MKII
CONTEST 38 S
GIBSEA 362
J-34
C&C 35-1
VICTORIA 38
Hunter 36-2 WK
SIROCCO 36
Tartan 33
Hunter 336
SUNSAIL HUNTER 336
Tartan 34
Schock 34PC
BAVARIA 36
APHRODITE 36
Beneteau 355
Avance 36
Waquiez Pretorian 35
Sweden 34
C&C 37
Sweden 36
WEST COR 30
Beneteau 35.5 W
S2 10.3
VIK 33
Scanmar 345
MOODY 376
Tartan 34-2
CENT 38
Galatea
CAL 36
O'DAY 37
DUFOUR 36 CLASSIC
C&C 36
Cal 35
CALIBER 35 LRC
SOUTHERLY 110
LITTLE HARBOR 38
Sweden 340
Elite 36
CS 34
JEANNEAU 33
Dehler 34
Soverel 37
MOOD 376
MOODY 38
GSOL 36
Seidlemann 37
Pearson 36
O'Day 35 SD
O'Day 34
O'Day 35
Scanmar 35 CC
Albin 35
Sabre 34 CB
CLEARWATER 35
Island Packet 370
Baltic 37
Scanmar 33
SPIRIT
Swan 371
Hunter 37
Islander 36
S2 11.0
CLEARWATER 36
Irwin 38 CB
FINN 351
Pearson 36-2
Waquiez 38

Teaching the Group about Boats
 

According to several French
forums............................................ ..


Well there you go. That settles it.

You're right. Now we know that you're more than an asshole. You're a
prejudice one as well.

RB
35s5
NY

Teaching the Group... list, enjoy
 

BTW this turns out to be about 150 boats

I told you! Doug put up the same list of boats that don't fit the basic
specs I listed. And in today's market an aft cabin and swim platform
are COMMON. But not in 1990. Hell no.
Now weed out the boats that are without an aft cabin. Most of them are
gone. Spare us the BS about building one. Also weed out the boats with
draft over 6 feet and with no aft cabin. Now remove the boats that are
slower than the 35s5 or are appreciably older. You have NO list Doug.
All you did was post a list of boats that don't match the 35s5 for the
BASIC feature set I listed.
The sad fact is that you're not willing to admit that in 1990 not a
whole lot of 35 footers with good speed had cabins like the 35s5. Fewer
still had swim platforms. They're just rare, especially in the
US...more common in Europe.
Thanks again, Doug. You struck out.

RB
35s5
NY

Teaching the Group... list, enjoy
 

Capt. Rob wrote:
I told you! Doug put up the same list of boats that don't fit the basic
specs I listed.

Yes, they all do, except that a number of them may or may
not have aft cabins (but even so would have comparable
accomodation).

DSK

Teaching the Group... list, enjoy
 

Bob Crantz wrote:

But weed out the ones that don't have:

an aft cabin

How should I know? But they are all roomy enough boats to
have comparable accomodation. And many do have have aft
cabins, for that matter there are some center cockpit boats
on the list!

swim platform

Most do, or have an open transom.

PHRF less than 140

All

cruising accomodations

All

If you keep the speedsters with no accomodation on the list,
for example the 1D35 which is a rocket, the list would be
over 200.

DSK

Teaching the Group about Boats
 

"Bob Crantz" wrote in message
k.net...
Five star troll!

I guess that you couldn't be bothered to read it! Neither could I.


Regards


Donal
--

Teaching the Group... list, enjoy
 

"Commodore Joe Redcloud" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 22:44:19 GMT, "Bob Crantz"
wrote:

But weed out the ones that don't have:

an aft cabin
swim platform
PHRF less than 140
cruising accomodations


Careful, Crantz. If you corner Doug, he'll quickly shift to personal
attacks and
other distractions. That's his well established M.O.

I get along just fine with Doug. I was not out to corner him. I was just
being sarcastic.

Amen!

Teaching the Group... list, enjoy
 

Doug,

Then you have to weed out the boat whose manufacturer's name doesn't start
with "B"

Then the ones who don't end in "u"

Then the ones that don't have two "e"'s in their name.

And so on....

Amen!

"DSK" wrote in message
. ..

Capt. Rob wrote:
I told you! Doug put up the same list of boats that don't fit the basic
specs I listed.

Yes, they all do, except that a number of them may or may
not have aft cabins (but even so would have comparable
accomodation).

DSK

Teaching the Group about Boats
 

"Donal" wrote in message

I guess that you couldn't be bothered to read it! Neither could I.

Bwaahahahaahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!

Five star quip!

Amen!

Teaching the Group... list, enjoy
 

Commodore Joe Redcloud wrote:
On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 22:44:19 GMT, "Bob Crantz" wrote:


But weed out the ones that don't have:

an aft cabin
swim platform
PHRF less than 140
cruising accomodations



Careful, Crantz. If you corner Doug, he'll quickly shift to personal attacks and
other distractions. That's his well established M.O.


Commodore Joe Redcloud
Pot calling the kettle black.

Teaching the Group... list, enjoy
 

DSK wrote:

Capt. Rob wrote:

I told you! Doug put up the same list of boats that don't fit the basic
specs I listed.


Yes, they all do, except that a number of them may or may not have aft
cabins (but even so would have comparable accomodation).

DSK

When you rant about the after cabin, are you talking about those ones
you can't stand up in and have the wierd shaped deckhead because of the
cockpit or a real cabin?

The ones I am familiar with call it an after cabin but they are really
just bunked in lazzarettes with a door. Kind of built for the charter
market with 6 folks on a 35 footer.

Teaching the Group... list, enjoy
 

I told you! Doug put up the same list of boats that don't fit the basic
specs I listed.


Yes, they all do, except that a number of them may or may not have aft
cabins (but even so would have comparable accomodation).


Gary wrote:
When you rant about the after cabin, are you talking about those ones
you can't stand up in and have the wierd shaped deckhead because of the
cockpit or a real cabin?


Sorry, didn't realize I was ranting.

The so-called "aft cabin" in aft-cockpit boats vary a lot.
Some are at least as good as the V-berth cabin.

The ones I am familiar with call it an after cabin but they are really
just bunked in lazzarettes with a door. Kind of built for the charter
market with 6 folks on a 35 footer.

Yep, that's a good descriptor for many: bunked-in lazarette.
They're not all like that though, some have at least a small
area of standing headroom and real stowage lockers.

Some of the better designed ones have the batteries, shaft &
pcking gland, or even the engine, set up for great access
and you can sit on the edge of the bunk while you work on
them. Now that's what I call thinking ahead!

But it's true that every inch of cubic put in the "aft
cabin" has to be taken out of the lazarette stowage. TANSTAAFL.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Teaching the Group... list, enjoy
 

Yes, they all do, except that a number of them may or may
not have aft cabins (but even so would have comparable
accomodation).

No, Doub. An aft cabin is quite different. It generally has a door for
one. It also usually has a larger bunk than a boat with a simple open
quarterberth.
Most of the boats you listed have no swim platform, too much draft and
so on. Why not just list 10 boats that are comparable. You can't even
do that.

RB
35s5
NY

Teaching the Group... list, enjoy
 

And many do have have aft
cabins, for that matter there are some center cockpit boats
on the list!


Prove it. Post 10 boats with aft cabins and swim platforms that fit the
criteria I posted. So far you've posted boats that you call
"comparable." That's just not the case. An aft cabin is an aft cabin.
Telling us we can build a swim platform doesn't cut it either, Doug.
You struck out.

RB
35s5
NY