"Capt" Rob wrote:
All production boats are built to a price point. The problem is a false
perception that a smaller builder might produce better boats.

It's not a problem at all, nor is it a false perception.

.... My 35s5 is just light
years beyond most of the boats built in the early 90s.

"Your" 35s5? I thought you'd pretty well admitted that this
was another empty troll?

.... Doug was unable
to find more than a couple of boats that combine her performance and
accomodations per foot.

Malarkey. Want me to publish the list again?


Gary wrote:
In your diatribes about boat quality you never seem to address the meat
of the matter. You go on ad infinitum about looks, speed, features and
spaciousness but poor quality boats can look good, go fast and be
spacious with lots of features. You haven't addressed the quality of
the material used in the building of the boat, used in the rig, and the
other areas where the quality boat would stand out.


I guess it depends on what you include in "quality." Is the
wiring fully compliant with ABYC and ABS specs? Is the hull
& deck construction robust enough to stand up to years of
hard sailing? Is the deck & rig constructed so that a lack
of perfect maintenance isn't going to cripple her in years
to come? For that matter, what about plumbing & engine
maintenance, is it easy to access all the necessary areas?



It is easy to build a boat that looks good and sails well for 10 or 15
years.

Nah, it's not really easy, but it's sure easier to build a
boat with "style" than to build one that really sails well
and holds up to serious usage.


... Particularly if the boat only sees 20-30 days a year of sailing
in the Caribbean. It is far more difficult to build a boat that
withstands live-aboard and cruising lifestyles. The wear and tear on
those boats is significantly greater.


IMHO long term cruising is hard on a boat, and should not be
confused with "liveaboard." Most people who live aboard
boats that I know of don't go anywhere very often, if ever.
The wear and tear on the boat is minimal, except for the galley.

Figure the average boat gets about 25 days of sailing a year and few of
them are 24 hour days. Most are 8 hour days. So what is that? 200
hours a year? The average recreational sailor's diesel gets about 100
hours a year. Even a poorly constructed boat will look good for a few
years with that kind of limited and light use.

Not only that, but it's in calm conditions. When boats have
stuff breaking in 40 knot winds, that's bad. When stuff is
breaking on boats less than 10 years old that have been used
lightly in calm conditions, that's really bad.



Now lets use one trip from Victoria to Hawaii as the typical cruiser
(although most will sail more than that in a year). The standard route
takes about 25 days of 24 hour a day sailing. So already they have
amassed 3 time the amount of wear and tear (600 hours). It is also well
known that offshore sailing with its constant motion is far harder on
gear than typical coastal cruising where the skipper picks his weather
window.

Especially chafe & UV exposure.

... Ergo the 600 hours has been harder (per hour) on the running
gear than the coastal cruising was in the other example.

The newer Benehuntalina may very well handle the challenges of offshore
sailing but their life span will not be that of a better quality boat.

And their life span is likely to be terminated by something
like the ports breaking out under a sea coming over the
deck, or the rudder shaft bending & locking up, if the
bulkhead tabbing doesn't break loose and start banging.

In order to take them offshore they typically need lots of upgrades to
ready them for the rigors. The quality boat will be better equipped as
constructed and last longer once out there sailing.


Not to mention that the design is oriented more towards life
under sail, or at least away from the marina & yacht club.
The BeneHuntaLina thrives close to the nursery but usually
doesn't fare well out in the jungle.

So in the final comparison between Benehuntalinas and the slower purpose
built cruising boats should be made on level ground. I suggest that the
reason your boat looks good is because it hasn't been sailed much and
the others that didn't were. For a realistic comparison you need to
look at boats of a similar age with the same amount of ocean miles. That
is where the Compacs, Valiants, Vancouvers, Cape Dorys, Albergs and
other heavy built boats come out way ahead.

Now I just have to say a little about the crab crusher
attitude... heavy is not necessarily better. A few years
back there was a big storm swept thru a cove in the Baja,
broke a bunch of cruisers loose and set them onto the beach.
An Olson 40 (California built ULDB) was among those that
broke loose, along with a Valiant and a Westsail. All three
hit the rocks, and the Westsail ended up piling onto the
Olson, which had cosmetic damage. The Valiant had some hull
damage from the rocks. The Westsail was totalled.

A boat that is well engineered and strongly built does not
have to be super heavy. In fact, under normal sailing
conditions the higher performance boat will be much handier,
easier to maneuver, as well as just plain faster.

"The only vehicle that benefits from additional unnecessary
weight is a steam roller." -Uffa Fox

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"The only vehicle that benefits from additional unnecessary
weight is a steam roller." -Uffa Fox

Brilliant!

"The only vehicle that benefits from additional unnecessary
weight is a steam roller." -Uffa Fox


Bob Crantz wrote:
Brilliant!


Agreed.

I wish I'd thought of it!

DSK

"Bob Crantz" wrote in message
k.net...

"The only vehicle that benefits from additional unnecessary
weight is a steam roller." -Uffa Fox


And fork trucks, cranes, excavators, bascule bridges............

to find more than a couple of boats that combine her performance and
accomodations per foot.


Malarkey. Want me to publish the list again?


Doug, you are a LIAR. You NEVER posted a list (outside of a few
examples) that can do what the 35s5 does at her size and price...not
even close. Only the C&C 34XL CB is a true contender.
But I'll give you yet ANOTHER chance. Here's the criteria...pretty
basic and easy to find these days if you're willing to spend 150K or
more....

34-36 foot boat built after 1988
PHRF below 140 (aprox)-quick boat)
AFT CABIN
SWIM PLATFORM
Draft under 6 feet
Cost under 75K

Go ahead, Doug. Your last list had one or more features missing from
EVERY boat. Even I could do better. Show us you're not a liar!!!

RB
35s5
NY

to find more than a couple of boats that combine her performance and
accomodations per foot.



Malarkey. Want me to publish the list again?


"Capt" Rob wrote:
Doug, you are a LIAR.

No, I'm not. Just Google it up.

... You NEVER posted a list (outside of a few
examples) that can do what the 35s5 does at her size and price...not
even close. Only the C&C 34XL CB is a true contender.

That's because you don't know beans about boats.

Starting with a list from my database of 475 racer/cruiser
type boats between 34' and 38', the Ben 35s5 was #191 for
speed. Going down the list we find a lot more with lower
PHRF ratings, so we end up with 268 boats comparable or
faster than the Ben-35s5.

Then we sort for draft, which important in a boat's
practical use. I like shallow draft myself. Unfortunately it
rules out some really nice boats that Boobsie never heard
of, like the Finngulf, Najad, CS-36, Grand Soleil, etc etc.
Now we're down to 171 boats, some of them custom designs.

Which of these boats have swim platforms? Any of them could
have, with about a weekend's worth of skilled labor (which
of course Boobsie can't supply). Many of them have open
transoms. Aft cabins? Most of them have something
comparable, and I have no way of guessing, other than to
remove boats which I know don't have one. Price? Shucks it'a
a buyers market. Besides, Boobsie is always bragging about
how rich he is. I did take off a few really high priced
boats like the Alerion Express 38 and the Morris 38.

BTW this turns out to be about 150 boats

AERODYNE 38
LUAU 350
SPARHAWK 35
SeaQuest 36
MIR 34
Cape Fear 38
TOUCAN 35
C&C 110
Spirit 37
Dehler DB-1
FINNGULF 335
THOMAS 35
Kirie Feeling 36
Bianca 360
Mirage 338
J-37 W
Olson 34
Bavaria 35 Exclusive
C&C 34R
SIROCCO 38
Kirie Elite 37
Ticon 34
Dufour 34
BENETEAU 361
Helena 38
Beneteau First 36s7
Sigma 36
OMEGA 36
Dehler DB-2
FEELING 364/1090
HUNTER Legend 37.5
Forna
J-34C
DUFOUR 35
BENETEAU FIRST 38s5
Alerion Express 38
FEELING 346 DI
NONSUCH 36
Van De Stadt 34
Express 34
HERITAGE 37 MK II
Jeanneau Sun Rise 33
Jeanneau Selection
FINNGULF 38
C&C 34+
Baltic 35
Hunter 37-2
CONTEST 36 S
ETAP 38
Hughes 38
Elan 36
HALLBERG-RASSY 34
Abbott 36
Hunter 35.5
FREEDOM 35
Santana 37
FREEDOM 36
Baltic 35 TM
OCEANIS 36 CC
MARINER POLARIS 36
JEANNEAU SUN 37.1
Orion 35/79
PEREGRINE 36
SCHOCK 34 PC
CABO RICO 38
WESTERLY OCEAN 33
HJB CUMULANT 38
Nightwind 35
ENDEAVOUR 37
Ericson 38-2 SD
Sabre 38 MKII
HUNTER 340
Morgan 364
Frers 33
Santana 35
EVASION 36
Tartan 37-3
VISION 36
Ericson 36
ISLAND PACKET 35
Peterson 34
Catalina 36 TM M
Seidlemann 37
JEANNEAU 36.2
HANS CHRISTIAN 38 MKII
CONTEST 38 S
GIBSEA 362
J-34
C&C 35-1
VICTORIA 38
Hunter 36-2 WK
SIROCCO 36
Tartan 33
Hunter 336
SUNSAIL HUNTER 336
Tartan 34
Schock 34PC
BAVARIA 36
APHRODITE 36
Beneteau 355
Avance 36
Waquiez Pretorian 35
Sweden 34
C&C 37
Sweden 36
WEST COR 30
Beneteau 35.5 W
S2 10.3
VIK 33
Scanmar 345
MOODY 376
Tartan 34-2
CENT 38
Galatea
CAL 36
O'DAY 37
DUFOUR 36 CLASSIC
C&C 36
Cal 35
CALIBER 35 LRC
SOUTHERLY 110
LITTLE HARBOR 38
Sweden 340
Elite 36
CS 34
JEANNEAU 33
Dehler 34
Soverel 37
MOOD 376
MOODY 38
GSOL 36
Seidlemann 37
Pearson 36
O'Day 35 SD
O'Day 34
O'Day 35
Scanmar 35 CC
Albin 35
Sabre 34 CB
CLEARWATER 35
Island Packet 370
Baltic 37
Scanmar 33
SPIRIT
Swan 371
Hunter 37
Islander 36
S2 11.0
CLEARWATER 36
Irwin 38 CB
FINN 351
Pearson 36-2
Waquiez 38

But weed out the ones that don't have:

an aft cabin
swim platform
PHRF less than 140
cruising accomodations

"DSK" wrote in message
. ..
to find more than a couple of boats that combine her performance and
accomodations per foot.



Malarkey. Want me to publish the list again?


"Capt" Rob wrote:
Doug, you are a LIAR.

No, I'm not. Just Google it up.

... You NEVER posted a list (outside of a few
examples) that can do what the 35s5 does at her size and price...not
even close. Only the C&C 34XL CB is a true contender.

That's because you don't know beans about boats.

Starting with a list from my database of 475 racer/cruiser
type boats between 34' and 38', the Ben 35s5 was #191 for
speed. Going down the list we find a lot more with lower
PHRF ratings, so we end up with 268 boats comparable or
faster than the Ben-35s5.

Then we sort for draft, which important in a boat's
practical use. I like shallow draft myself. Unfortunately it
rules out some really nice boats that Boobsie never heard
of, like the Finngulf, Najad, CS-36, Grand Soleil, etc etc.
Now we're down to 171 boats, some of them custom designs.

Which of these boats have swim platforms? Any of them could
have, with about a weekend's worth of skilled labor (which
of course Boobsie can't supply). Many of them have open
transoms. Aft cabins? Most of them have something
comparable, and I have no way of guessing, other than to
remove boats which I know don't have one. Price? Shucks it'a
a buyers market. Besides, Boobsie is always bragging about
how rich he is. I did take off a few really high priced
boats like the Alerion Express 38 and the Morris 38.

BTW this turns out to be about 150 boats

AERODYNE 38
LUAU 350
SPARHAWK 35
SeaQuest 36
MIR 34
Cape Fear 38
TOUCAN 35
C&C 110
Spirit 37
Dehler DB-1
FINNGULF 335
THOMAS 35
Kirie Feeling 36
Bianca 360
Mirage 338
J-37 W
Olson 34
Bavaria 35 Exclusive
C&C 34R
SIROCCO 38
Kirie Elite 37
Ticon 34
Dufour 34
BENETEAU 361
Helena 38
Beneteau First 36s7
Sigma 36
OMEGA 36
Dehler DB-2
FEELING 364/1090
HUNTER Legend 37.5
Forna
J-34C
DUFOUR 35
BENETEAU FIRST 38s5
Alerion Express 38
FEELING 346 DI
NONSUCH 36
Van De Stadt 34
Express 34
HERITAGE 37 MK II
Jeanneau Sun Rise 33
Jeanneau Selection
FINNGULF 38
C&C 34+
Baltic 35
Hunter 37-2
CONTEST 36 S
ETAP 38
Hughes 38
Elan 36
HALLBERG-RASSY 34
Abbott 36
Hunter 35.5
FREEDOM 35
Santana 37
FREEDOM 36
Baltic 35 TM
OCEANIS 36 CC
MARINER POLARIS 36
JEANNEAU SUN 37.1
Orion 35/79
PEREGRINE 36
SCHOCK 34 PC
CABO RICO 38
WESTERLY OCEAN 33
HJB CUMULANT 38
Nightwind 35
ENDEAVOUR 37
Ericson 38-2 SD
Sabre 38 MKII
HUNTER 340
Morgan 364
Frers 33
Santana 35
EVASION 36
Tartan 37-3
VISION 36
Ericson 36
ISLAND PACKET 35
Peterson 34
Catalina 36 TM M
Seidlemann 37
JEANNEAU 36.2
HANS CHRISTIAN 38 MKII
CONTEST 38 S
GIBSEA 362
J-34
C&C 35-1
VICTORIA 38
Hunter 36-2 WK
SIROCCO 36
Tartan 33
Hunter 336
SUNSAIL HUNTER 336
Tartan 34
Schock 34PC
BAVARIA 36
APHRODITE 36
Beneteau 355
Avance 36
Waquiez Pretorian 35
Sweden 34
C&C 37
Sweden 36
WEST COR 30
Beneteau 35.5 W
S2 10.3
VIK 33
Scanmar 345
MOODY 376
Tartan 34-2
CENT 38
Galatea
CAL 36
O'DAY 37
DUFOUR 36 CLASSIC
C&C 36
Cal 35
CALIBER 35 LRC
SOUTHERLY 110
LITTLE HARBOR 38
Sweden 340
Elite 36
CS 34
JEANNEAU 33
Dehler 34
Soverel 37
MOOD 376
MOODY 38
GSOL 36
Seidlemann 37
Pearson 36
O'Day 35 SD
O'Day 34
O'Day 35
Scanmar 35 CC
Albin 35
Sabre 34 CB
CLEARWATER 35
Island Packet 370
Baltic 37
Scanmar 33
SPIRIT
Swan 371
Hunter 37
Islander 36
S2 11.0
CLEARWATER 36
Irwin 38 CB
FINN 351
Pearson 36-2
Waquiez 38

Bob Crantz wrote:

But weed out the ones that don't have:

an aft cabin

How should I know? But they are all roomy enough boats to
have comparable accomodation. And many do have have aft
cabins, for that matter there are some center cockpit boats
on the list!

swim platform

Most do, or have an open transom.

PHRF less than 140

All

cruising accomodations

All

If you keep the speedsters with no accomodation on the list,
for example the 1D35 which is a rocket, the list would be
over 200.

DSK

And many do have have aft
cabins, for that matter there are some center cockpit boats
on the list!


Prove it. Post 10 boats with aft cabins and swim platforms that fit the
criteria I posted. So far you've posted boats that you call
"comparable." That's just not the case. An aft cabin is an aft cabin.
Telling us we can build a swim platform doesn't cut it either, Doug.
You struck out.

RB
35s5
NY

Capt. Rob wrote:
And many do have have aft
cabins, for that matter there are some center cockpit boats
on the list!


Prove it. Post 10 boats with aft cabins and swim platforms that fit the
criteria I posted. So far you've posted boats that you call
"comparable." That's just not the case. An aft cabin is an aft cabin.
Telling us we can build a swim platform doesn't cut it either, Doug.
You struck out.

RB
35s5
NY

Bavaria 36, 35h, 34 (most models)
Beneteau Oceanus 370, Mooring 352, First 35s5 (most models)
Catalina 34
CS 34
Dehler 36 (draft 6.5'
Gib'Sea 36
Hunter 36 Vision, 35.5, 35 (Most models)
Jeanneau Sundance 36, Sunrise 35 etc
Northwind 35
Olson 34
Pearson 34-2

In fact it seems that all the boats in that price range and that vintage
were very similar in design.

Pretty much the same stuff over and over again. I guess that is what
the weekend sailors want, floating motorhomes.

Gaz