Max, what do you believe is important when attempting to point? I think this
is a discussion worth having.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Maxprop" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message

Hmmmm....seems few others agree with this. Even Loco and Steve have
said the higher pointing boat has the advantage.

Only if the skipper has the knowledge and experience to utilize that
advantage. The art of pointing involves a lot more than simply sailing as
closely to the wind as possible.

VMG across the widest
possible range is what determines perfomance. This is the essense of
sailing performance in fact.

VMG has more to do with the skipper than the boat. Paul Elvstrom proved
that for decades, sailing inferior boats against superior ones with
inferior skippers, and beating them easily.

Wish I'd written that!

What a lofty goal, to be able to coin a phrase suggesting something
blatantly obvious.

For a boat to be
considered high performance it must have excellent windward ability, be
fast off the wind and be stable downwind. A PDQ 36 is only fast off the
wind and not in light air. It MIGHT win a race...so long as the
conditions were pretty specific to it's advantages. My C&C 32 clobbered
a well sailed Gemini even though it was faster downwind.

It is conceivable that some Geminis are owned and sailed by incompetent
people.

Upwind it was
a dead duck, just like Jeff's boat would be. He already wrote that
tacking is tedious!
Get a clue...even a PDQ owner says you're wrong. The PDQ and other cats
like her are fantastic cruising boats for some folks, but sailing
enthusiasts still prefer First series boats, J-Boats, Swans, Swedens

Interesting that you include your boat with such a distinquished list of
yachts. Reminds me of a guy who used to boast that his Cosworth Vega was
in the same league as a Ferrari 248GTSi.

and the rest who comprise the cruiser/racer-racer/cruiser section of
the market. They're just more fun to sail, tack fast and can go upwind.

And your 35s5, compared with similarly-sized cruising boats, is cramped,
lightly constructed, uncomfortable in a seaway, and must be reefed early
and often, not to mention worth a fraction of the value of the cruising
boats at resale time. Everything's relative, Bubbles.

Max

"Capt. JG" wrote in message

Max, what do you believe is important when attempting to point? I think
this is a discussion worth having.

The fine art of pointing encompasses more than just having a boat that sails
closely to the wind. When racing, the weather course made good will depend
upon a number of factors. An adroit skipper can sail a higher CMG with a
boat that doesn't sail as closely to the wind than a poorer skipper will
with a boat that theoretically points higher. Keeping the boat on its feet
(upright) is one factor. Another is maintaining sufficient speed to be able
to periodically feather into the wind without slowing appreciably. This is
where skill really shines. Sailing a high CMG often requires footing off
periodically, especially in light air, to maintain boat speed to allow
feathering and to prevent leeward slippage. Puffs can enable a boat to
point higher as well, provided boat speed is maintained. Inexperienced
skippers tend to pinch when following faster boats--the perception is that
those boats are "pointing" higher than he, so he pinches in attempt to equal
their pointing ability, effectively slowing himself down and losing ground
to leeward. The direction in which the boat is aimed often has little to do
with how well the boat is "pointing."

There's more to it, but that's a good start.

Max

Keeping a boat on it's feet vs. excessive heeling... that's what you're
saying right? Because zero heel may indicate pinching too much.

I'm not sure what you mean by feathering with respect to light air.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Maxprop" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message

Max, what do you believe is important when attempting to point? I think
this is a discussion worth having.

The fine art of pointing encompasses more than just having a boat that
sails closely to the wind. When racing, the weather course made good will
depend upon a number of factors. An adroit skipper can sail a higher CMG
with a boat that doesn't sail as closely to the wind than a poorer skipper
will with a boat that theoretically points higher. Keeping the boat on
its feet (upright) is one factor. Another is maintaining sufficient speed
to be able to periodically feather into the wind without slowing
appreciably. This is where skill really shines. Sailing a high CMG often
requires footing off periodically, especially in light air, to maintain
boat speed to allow feathering and to prevent leeward slippage. Puffs can
enable a boat to point higher as well, provided boat speed is maintained.
Inexperienced skippers tend to pinch when following faster boats--the
perception is that those boats are "pointing" higher than he, so he
pinches in attempt to equal their pointing ability, effectively slowing
himself down and losing ground to leeward. The direction in which the
boat is aimed often has little to do with how well the boat is "pointing."

There's more to it, but that's a good start.

Max

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
Keeping a boat on it's feet vs. excessive heeling... that's what you're
saying right? Because zero heel may indicate pinching too much.

No. There is no such thing as zero heel--a boat will always heel when
beating to windward unless it's a small dinghy with a 300lb. skipper and
similarly-sized crew. But limiting the heel to a practical minimum will
generally allow better helm control and less leeway slippage. It also keeps
the sailplan presented to the wind more optimally.

I'm not sure what you mean by feathering with respect to light air.

Feathering is the act of turning the boat into the wind (somewhat) during
puffs and when moving well, but it is done only briefly, with a feel for the
inevitable loss of speed that accompanies such a maneuver. At the first
sign of the boat beginning to slow, the boat is pulled back to its original
course. Learning to feather a boat to windward can make a big difference,
especially when attempting to make a mark that is just above the rhumb line.
Essentially it is the act of trading speed and momentum for pointing
ability. Feathering is difficult in light air, and ill advised in drifter
conditions.

Max

Hmm... well, I think there is a spot when there's zero heel, but it may not
be sustainable upwind. Assuming no current and light wind, it seems like you
would want some heel.

I've always used the term heading up or pinching up. I guess you did say
something about falling off before attempting to heading up.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Maxprop" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
Keeping a boat on it's feet vs. excessive heeling... that's what you're
saying right? Because zero heel may indicate pinching too much.

No. There is no such thing as zero heel--a boat will always heel when
beating to windward unless it's a small dinghy with a 300lb. skipper and
similarly-sized crew. But limiting the heel to a practical minimum will
generally allow better helm control and less leeway slippage. It also
keeps the sailplan presented to the wind more optimally.

I'm not sure what you mean by feathering with respect to light air.

Feathering is the act of turning the boat into the wind (somewhat) during
puffs and when moving well, but it is done only briefly, with a feel for
the inevitable loss of speed that accompanies such a maneuver. At the
first sign of the boat beginning to slow, the boat is pulled back to its
original course. Learning to feather a boat to windward can make a big
difference, especially when attempting to make a mark that is just above
the rhumb line. Essentially it is the act of trading speed and momentum
for pointing ability. Feathering is difficult in light air, and ill
advised in drifter conditions.

Max

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...

Hmm... well, I think there is a spot when there's zero heel,

I'm open to learning under what conditions this may be true. I can't
conceive of it, however. If the boat is hard on the wind and there IS wind,
a boat will heel, unless it's one of those redundant-hull thingys that Oz
sails.

but it may not be sustainable upwind. Assuming no current and light wind,
it seems like you would want some heel.

You'll always have *some* heel, but minimizing it is advantageous for a
number of reasons. If this weren't true, why all the railmeat on maxi
boats? Dinghies are generally best sailed, in all but very light winds,
with a minimum of heel. Big boats are no different, unless they are
classics with long overhangs which increase effective waterline when heeled.


I've always used the term heading up or pinching up. I guess you did say
something about falling off before attempting to heading up.

I've always interpreted "pinching" as simply sailing too close to the wind.
An example would be a boat with the ability to sail at, say, 30 degrees to
the relative wind. Pinching would be to sail it along at 27 degrees, and
footing would be at 35 degrees, plus or minus. Feathering is, according to
Snipe guru Ted Wells, alternating between footing and pinching, but
maintaining speed by spending only that amount of time pinching that won't
denigrate boat speed significantly. It's an active process, with the
skipper moving the helm quite a bit.

There are some experienced skippers who prefer to find that sweet spot when
hard on the wind, holding the helm very still. I can generally outpoint
them, but they do seem to win their share of races. It's just another
school of thought.

Max

"Maxprop" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...

Hmm... well, I think there is a spot when there's zero heel,

I'm open to learning under what conditions this may be true. I can't
conceive of it, however. If the boat is hard on the wind and there IS
wind, a boat will heel, unless it's one of those redundant-hull thingys
that Oz sails.

Well, I thought you said that yourself... upwind, very light wind. I would
think that when there's a lull in light wind, the heel would go to zero, if
it wasn't nearly there already. I'm not sure how one would judge that, since
I don't have nor have I seen a tilt meter that accurate.

but it may not be sustainable upwind. Assuming no current and light wind,
it seems like you would want some heel.

You'll always have *some* heel, but minimizing it is advantageous for a
number of reasons. If this weren't true, why all the railmeat on maxi
boats? Dinghies are generally best sailed, in all but very light winds,
with a minimum of heel. Big boats are no different, unless they are
classics with long overhangs which increase effective waterline when
heeled.

I've always used the term heading up or pinching up. I guess you did say
something about falling off before attempting to heading up.

I've always interpreted "pinching" as simply sailing too close to the
wind. An example would be a boat with the ability to sail at, say, 30
degrees to the relative wind. Pinching would be to sail it along at 27
degrees, and footing would be at 35 degrees, plus or minus. Feathering
is, according to Snipe guru Ted Wells, alternating between footing and
pinching, but maintaining speed by spending only that amount of time
pinching that won't denigrate boat speed significantly. It's an active
process, with the skipper moving the helm quite a bit.

Ok... so feathering is zigzagging.

There are some experienced skippers who prefer to find that sweet spot
when hard on the wind, holding the helm very still. I can generally
outpoint them, but they do seem to win their share of races. It's just
another school of thought.

Yup... straight line sailing is faster.. turn = slowing.