Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
|
#1
![]() |
|||
|
|||
![]() "Capt. Rob" wrote in message Hmmmm....seems few others agree with this. Even Loco and Steve have said the higher pointing boat has the advantage. Only if the skipper has the knowledge and experience to utilize that advantage. The art of pointing involves a lot more than simply sailing as closely to the wind as possible. VMG across the widest possible range is what determines perfomance. This is the essense of sailing performance in fact. VMG has more to do with the skipper than the boat. Paul Elvstrom proved that for decades, sailing inferior boats against superior ones with inferior skippers, and beating them easily. Wish I'd written that! What a lofty goal, to be able to coin a phrase suggesting something blatantly obvious. For a boat to be considered high performance it must have excellent windward ability, be fast off the wind and be stable downwind. A PDQ 36 is only fast off the wind and not in light air. It MIGHT win a race...so long as the conditions were pretty specific to it's advantages. My C&C 32 clobbered a well sailed Gemini even though it was faster downwind. It is conceivable that some Geminis are owned and sailed by incompetent people. Upwind it was a dead duck, just like Jeff's boat would be. He already wrote that tacking is tedious! Get a clue...even a PDQ owner says you're wrong. The PDQ and other cats like her are fantastic cruising boats for some folks, but sailing enthusiasts still prefer First series boats, J-Boats, Swans, Swedens Interesting that you include your boat with such a distinquished list of yachts. Reminds me of a guy who used to boast that his Cosworth Vega was in the same league as a Ferrari 248GTSi. and the rest who comprise the cruiser/racer-racer/cruiser section of the market. They're just more fun to sail, tack fast and can go upwind. And your 35s5, compared with similarly-sized cruising boats, is cramped, lightly constructed, uncomfortable in a seaway, and must be reefed early and often, not to mention worth a fraction of the value of the cruising boats at resale time. Everything's relative, Bubbles. Max |
#2
![]() |
|||
|
|||
![]()
Max, what do you believe is important when attempting to point? I think this
is a discussion worth having. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Maxprop" wrote in message nk.net... "Capt. Rob" wrote in message Hmmmm....seems few others agree with this. Even Loco and Steve have said the higher pointing boat has the advantage. Only if the skipper has the knowledge and experience to utilize that advantage. The art of pointing involves a lot more than simply sailing as closely to the wind as possible. VMG across the widest possible range is what determines perfomance. This is the essense of sailing performance in fact. VMG has more to do with the skipper than the boat. Paul Elvstrom proved that for decades, sailing inferior boats against superior ones with inferior skippers, and beating them easily. Wish I'd written that! What a lofty goal, to be able to coin a phrase suggesting something blatantly obvious. For a boat to be considered high performance it must have excellent windward ability, be fast off the wind and be stable downwind. A PDQ 36 is only fast off the wind and not in light air. It MIGHT win a race...so long as the conditions were pretty specific to it's advantages. My C&C 32 clobbered a well sailed Gemini even though it was faster downwind. It is conceivable that some Geminis are owned and sailed by incompetent people. Upwind it was a dead duck, just like Jeff's boat would be. He already wrote that tacking is tedious! Get a clue...even a PDQ owner says you're wrong. The PDQ and other cats like her are fantastic cruising boats for some folks, but sailing enthusiasts still prefer First series boats, J-Boats, Swans, Swedens Interesting that you include your boat with such a distinquished list of yachts. Reminds me of a guy who used to boast that his Cosworth Vega was in the same league as a Ferrari 248GTSi. and the rest who comprise the cruiser/racer-racer/cruiser section of the market. They're just more fun to sail, tack fast and can go upwind. And your 35s5, compared with similarly-sized cruising boats, is cramped, lightly constructed, uncomfortable in a seaway, and must be reefed early and often, not to mention worth a fraction of the value of the cruising boats at resale time. Everything's relative, Bubbles. Max |
#3
![]() |
|||
|
|||
![]() "Capt. JG" wrote in message Max, what do you believe is important when attempting to point? I think this is a discussion worth having. The fine art of pointing encompasses more than just having a boat that sails closely to the wind. When racing, the weather course made good will depend upon a number of factors. An adroit skipper can sail a higher CMG with a boat that doesn't sail as closely to the wind than a poorer skipper will with a boat that theoretically points higher. Keeping the boat on its feet (upright) is one factor. Another is maintaining sufficient speed to be able to periodically feather into the wind without slowing appreciably. This is where skill really shines. Sailing a high CMG often requires footing off periodically, especially in light air, to maintain boat speed to allow feathering and to prevent leeward slippage. Puffs can enable a boat to point higher as well, provided boat speed is maintained. Inexperienced skippers tend to pinch when following faster boats--the perception is that those boats are "pointing" higher than he, so he pinches in attempt to equal their pointing ability, effectively slowing himself down and losing ground to leeward. The direction in which the boat is aimed often has little to do with how well the boat is "pointing." There's more to it, but that's a good start. Max |
#4
![]() |
|||
|
|||
![]()
Keeping a boat on it's feet vs. excessive heeling... that's what you're
saying right? Because zero heel may indicate pinching too much. I'm not sure what you mean by feathering with respect to light air. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Maxprop" wrote in message ink.net... "Capt. JG" wrote in message Max, what do you believe is important when attempting to point? I think this is a discussion worth having. The fine art of pointing encompasses more than just having a boat that sails closely to the wind. When racing, the weather course made good will depend upon a number of factors. An adroit skipper can sail a higher CMG with a boat that doesn't sail as closely to the wind than a poorer skipper will with a boat that theoretically points higher. Keeping the boat on its feet (upright) is one factor. Another is maintaining sufficient speed to be able to periodically feather into the wind without slowing appreciably. This is where skill really shines. Sailing a high CMG often requires footing off periodically, especially in light air, to maintain boat speed to allow feathering and to prevent leeward slippage. Puffs can enable a boat to point higher as well, provided boat speed is maintained. Inexperienced skippers tend to pinch when following faster boats--the perception is that those boats are "pointing" higher than he, so he pinches in attempt to equal their pointing ability, effectively slowing himself down and losing ground to leeward. The direction in which the boat is aimed often has little to do with how well the boat is "pointing." There's more to it, but that's a good start. Max |
#5
![]() |
|||
|
|||
![]() "Capt. JG" wrote in message ... Keeping a boat on it's feet vs. excessive heeling... that's what you're saying right? Because zero heel may indicate pinching too much. No. There is no such thing as zero heel--a boat will always heel when beating to windward unless it's a small dinghy with a 300lb. skipper and similarly-sized crew. But limiting the heel to a practical minimum will generally allow better helm control and less leeway slippage. It also keeps the sailplan presented to the wind more optimally. I'm not sure what you mean by feathering with respect to light air. Feathering is the act of turning the boat into the wind (somewhat) during puffs and when moving well, but it is done only briefly, with a feel for the inevitable loss of speed that accompanies such a maneuver. At the first sign of the boat beginning to slow, the boat is pulled back to its original course. Learning to feather a boat to windward can make a big difference, especially when attempting to make a mark that is just above the rhumb line. Essentially it is the act of trading speed and momentum for pointing ability. Feathering is difficult in light air, and ill advised in drifter conditions. Max |
#6
![]() |
|||
|
|||
![]()
Hmm... well, I think there is a spot when there's zero heel, but it may not
be sustainable upwind. Assuming no current and light wind, it seems like you would want some heel. I've always used the term heading up or pinching up. I guess you did say something about falling off before attempting to heading up. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Maxprop" wrote in message ink.net... "Capt. JG" wrote in message ... Keeping a boat on it's feet vs. excessive heeling... that's what you're saying right? Because zero heel may indicate pinching too much. No. There is no such thing as zero heel--a boat will always heel when beating to windward unless it's a small dinghy with a 300lb. skipper and similarly-sized crew. But limiting the heel to a practical minimum will generally allow better helm control and less leeway slippage. It also keeps the sailplan presented to the wind more optimally. I'm not sure what you mean by feathering with respect to light air. Feathering is the act of turning the boat into the wind (somewhat) during puffs and when moving well, but it is done only briefly, with a feel for the inevitable loss of speed that accompanies such a maneuver. At the first sign of the boat beginning to slow, the boat is pulled back to its original course. Learning to feather a boat to windward can make a big difference, especially when attempting to make a mark that is just above the rhumb line. Essentially it is the act of trading speed and momentum for pointing ability. Feathering is difficult in light air, and ill advised in drifter conditions. Max |
#7
![]() |
|||
|
|||
![]() "Capt. JG" wrote in message ... Hmm... well, I think there is a spot when there's zero heel, I'm open to learning under what conditions this may be true. I can't conceive of it, however. If the boat is hard on the wind and there IS wind, a boat will heel, unless it's one of those redundant-hull thingys that Oz sails. but it may not be sustainable upwind. Assuming no current and light wind, it seems like you would want some heel. You'll always have *some* heel, but minimizing it is advantageous for a number of reasons. If this weren't true, why all the railmeat on maxi boats? Dinghies are generally best sailed, in all but very light winds, with a minimum of heel. Big boats are no different, unless they are classics with long overhangs which increase effective waterline when heeled. I've always used the term heading up or pinching up. I guess you did say something about falling off before attempting to heading up. I've always interpreted "pinching" as simply sailing too close to the wind. An example would be a boat with the ability to sail at, say, 30 degrees to the relative wind. Pinching would be to sail it along at 27 degrees, and footing would be at 35 degrees, plus or minus. Feathering is, according to Snipe guru Ted Wells, alternating between footing and pinching, but maintaining speed by spending only that amount of time pinching that won't denigrate boat speed significantly. It's an active process, with the skipper moving the helm quite a bit. There are some experienced skippers who prefer to find that sweet spot when hard on the wind, holding the helm very still. I can generally outpoint them, but they do seem to win their share of races. It's just another school of thought. Max |
#8
![]() |
|||
|
|||
![]()
enthusiasts still prefer First series boats, J-Boats, Swans, Swedens
Interesting that you include your boat with such a distinquished list of yachts. I've sailed the Sweden 39, J34c, J30 and J35. I have NOT sailed a Swan yet. The cost of the swan not withstanding, the 35s5 is in the same league for performance. In fact it was a hell of a lot nicer than the nice J34c. The Sweden had better components, but tiny bunks...amazingly small. A useless boat even for weekending if you're over 6 feet tall. The J35 was fast and fun...if only it had a nicer cabin. The 35s5 was simply one of the few boats that sailed like a raceboat while maintaining a good interior for occasional cruising. Saying it's not ideal for a 1000 mile voyage is rather silly since we didn't buy it for that. It's also a poor boat to fly over the Grand Canyon as well. I had a talk with Mark P. of Doyle sails this morning when I brought a sail in for an insurance estimate. He owned a 36.7 for a while and is a fan of the 35s5. We laughed at how we were once Beneteau bashers. He said, "Yeah, that was me until I sailed a 35s5 and then a 36.7." As luck would have it he built the sails on my boat and raced with her owned many years ago aboard a S33. Max, if you think the First 35s5 is lightly built, you should talk to some surveyors who've worked the boat. It's built with many weight saving featires, yet it's structural integrity is a match for most any production cruiser. Rather than just denying this off the cuff I suggest you look into it. Your impression on "lightly built" was also mine. Then I learned a bit about the 345, 32s5 and 35s5 and why they were standouts among the First series boats. RB 35s5 NY |
#9
![]() |
|||
|
|||
![]() "Capt. Rob" wrote in message enthusiasts still prefer First series boats, J-Boats, Swans, Swedens Interesting that you include your boat with such a distinquished list of yachts. I've sailed the Sweden 39, J34c, J30 and J35. I have NOT sailed a Swan yet. The cost of the swan not withstanding, the 35s5 is in the same league for performance. *Performance* encompasses a lot more than just going fast. I'll take the Swan any day. It will be heavier, but do far better than your Bendy Toy over the broad range of conditions. You seem to be under the mistaken impression that flat water and 15kts. is the standard by which "performance" is judged. In fact it was a hell of a lot nicer than the nice J34c. The Sweden had better components, but tiny bunks...amazingly small. A useless boat even for weekending if you're over 6 feet tall. The J35 was fast and fun...if only it had a nicer cabin. The 35s5 was simply one of the few boats that sailed like a raceboat while maintaining a good interior for occasional cruising. Saying it's not ideal for a 1000 mile voyage is rather silly since we didn't buy it for that. It's also a poor boat to fly over the Grand Canyon as well. I had a talk with Mark P. of Doyle sails this morning when I brought a sail in for an insurance estimate. He owned a 36.7 for a while and is a fan of the 35s5. We laughed at how we were once Beneteau bashers. He said, "Yeah, that was me until I sailed a 35s5 and then a 36.7." As luck would have it he built the sails on my boat and raced with her owned many years ago aboard a S33. Max, if you think the First 35s5 is lightly built, you should talk to some surveyors who've worked the boat. It's built with many weight saving featires, yet it's structural integrity is a match for most any production cruiser. You've been reading the Beneteau brochures, haven't ya. And believing them. Rather than just denying this off the cuff I suggest you look into it. Your impression on "lightly built" was also mine. Then I learned a bit about the 345, 32s5 and 35s5 and why they were standouts among the First series boats. I've spent more time on Beneteaus than you, Bubbles. But that's not necessarily significant--I state it only to explain that I'm far from ignorant w/r/t Beneteaus. A good friend used to sell them in Chicago. So I got the *Beneteau story*, and the *true story*. Fact is, they are really very good boats--better, I think, than Hunters and Catalinas in most respects. But Chantiers Beneteau's claim that they are great offshore passagemakers is more advertising hype than reality. Sure, they bond their bulkheads 360 degrees to the hull *liner* and deck *liner*, but that's not quite the same as bonding them to the hull and deck. Beneteau's hull liners have been known to separate from the hull, requiring extensive repair costs often without effecting a valid repair. AND their bulkheads, fairly lightly constructed, have been known to buckle and fail when pushed to extremes that would probably not damage a stout cruiser, such as a Hallberg Rassey or a Cabo Rico, for example. However I think the most significant thing you've stated is that you used to bash Beneteaus. I recall that very well--you were without mercy. Now that you own one, there are few boats that can compare with your 35s5. Sounds like owner prejudice, plain and simple, to me. Max |
#10
![]() |
|||
|
|||
![]()
*Performance* encompasses a lot more than just going fast. I'll take
the Swan any day. Wow...you really went out on a limb there! Next you'll tell us that you'd take Pam Anderson over Judy Dench. But Chantiers Beneteau's claim that they are great offshore passagemakers is more advertising hype than reality. Honestly, we won't take Thomas into dangerous conditions offshore in any boat. Now that you own one, there are few boats that can compare with your 35s5. Sounds like owner prejudice, plain and simple, to me. That IS a VERY valid point. In this case it came down to education about some of the Beneteau line. I don't have a high opinion of the latest Beneteau boats, especially the Oceanus series. Did you know that brokers are currently fighting with BeneteauUSA to make fit and finish improvements because quality has fallen badly? Go look at a new one...even a First series. Mark at Doyle loved the way his 36.7 sailed, but said the interior is crap compared to my boat. Of course we observed this ourselves. He himself laughed that he was a Beneteau basher...and then he sailed a first series boat. The combo of performance and cruisability for these waters is essentially unmatched anywhere near the price. Go ahead...try to match it. Doug couldn't. That's not to say the 35s5 is ideal for everyone. It's a handful at times and requires more work to sail than say a Catalina 40 or Island Packet 35. But that's what we wanted! All I can add is that we took Windward First out in some pretty heavy wind and chop and it was simply a blast! Reefed under main alone, she still sailed like a quick dinghy and aside from the howling wind, it was very relaxed and composed. This is a great boat for the LIS area. RB 35s5 NY |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
|
![]() |
||||
Thread | Forum | |||
Well, Jeff? | ASA | |||
Multi Hulls Capsize in Yacht Race | ASA | |||
A Ship of Fools | ASA | |||
A Recreational Boating Message | General | |||
A Recreational Boating Message | General |