DSK wrote:

Well, if it's that simple, why don't you do it yourself?



Vito wrote:

Same reason I can't duplicate my VHF rig on a work bench - lack of
equipment
and skill. But that doesn't mean the equipment and skill doesn't
exist, as
witness Dolly.


In case you hadn't noticed, rats & sheep are different from people.


While rats and sheep are not human, some humans are rats and sheep.

Cheers

"DSK" wrote

In case you hadn't noticed, rats & sheep are different from people.

Not much at that level, but we're not proposing cloning just taking the
first few steps thereof, which have been done before as witness Dolly. The
same equipment and skills are applicable.

In any event, you're crying for the moon and getting mad at Daddy for
not fetching it for you.

No, I am angry at GW Bush for preventing science from fetching it ....

It's not entirely his fault because 1- he is a puppet and 2- it is still
years away from even experimental protocols on human patients.

1. Agreed. 2. years away beats hell out of 'never' and that's what the
fundementalists who pull his strings demand.

None to diabetes. Quite a bit more than that to ....

Good on you, blighter!


That's a laugh. I know a lot of MDs who make less than your 125K$/yr.

That' odd. My brother, a mere Chiropractor, nets over $500,000/yr working a
40 hour week. Do these MDs practise in the USA or ?

In any event, if there is no profit .......

I never even suggested NO profit, but when companies offer South Africa AIDS
medicines for $6/day and make a profit (else as you point out they wouldn't
do it) then it is obscene to charge US patients $100s/day to stay alive.

Nor do I suggest government controls. Just the opposite! I want the
existing controls that facilitate this kind of thing abolished. Then let a
truly free market establish price and profit. Y'know, the American way (c:


Meanwhile, you are making a number of unwise assumptions. Why should
drugs be cheap, other than that you want it that way? Some even demand
free drugs and health care... why should it be free any more than
gasoline or electricity or video games should be free?

Nor did I say drugs should be free or even cheap. I said that prices should
be set by the FREE MARKET unencumbered by government sponsored monopoly.
Drug companies are already competing over the efficacy of Vaigra vs its
clones. If they'd also compete on price AND if one didn't have to pay an MD
for permision to buy it I'd be satisfied - in that case. Apply that across
the board and I'd be happy.

Back to the subject - is Bush implementing this? NO! He's fighting it tooth
and nail! Kerry? Just a tad.

But politics is not the answer to everything.

No, not the answer it is the problem - when politics is interfering with
free markets, as it is in the US medical system, then politicians are the
problem.

That's a laugh. I know a lot of MDs who make less than your 125K$/yr.


Vito wrote:
That' odd. My brother, a mere Chiropractor, nets over $500,000/yr working a
40 hour week. Do these MDs practise in the USA or ?

Yes. They work at state university medical centers or in rural counties.

BTW I don't know of a single MD who works 40 hour weeks. Most work 60+
hours a week, many work 90 hour weeks. Since the requirements for
resident work hours was chopped, somebody has to take up the slack. And
if one has research projects on the bench, then usually they work about
twice as many hours per week as their own residents.

Then there's the situation with nurses....

Medical care in this country is headed for a train wreck, and it's being
speeded up by people who insist it's the fault of those damn rich
doctors. If you think doctors are the problem, next time you're sick
just cut out the middleman... go straight to a lawyer.



In any event, if there is no profit .......


I never even suggested NO profit, but when companies offer South Africa AIDS
medicines for $6/day and make a profit (else as you point out they wouldn't
do it) then it is obscene to charge US patients $100s/day to stay alive.

Not really. If you need cheap AIDS medication then I guess the answer is
to move to Africa.

Basically, this is a market system. They sell at a price people will buy
at. Price goes up, numbers of people who buy goes down... and vice
versa. The problem here is that people continue to buy drugs they "can't
afford" and then complain. If you don't put your money where your mouth
is, the market system will whipsaw you 8 days a week.


Nor do I suggest government controls. Just the opposite! I want the
existing controls that facilitate this kind of thing abolished. Then let a
truly free market establish price and profit. Y'know, the American way (c:

I suspect you wouldn't like the result at all.

Look back in history and see if you can find a time period when medical
care and drugs were cheap.


Nor did I say drugs should be free or even cheap. I said that prices should
be set by the FREE MARKET unencumbered by government sponsored monopoly.
Drug companies are already competing over the efficacy of Vaigra vs its
clones. If they'd also compete on price AND if one didn't have to pay an MD
for permision to buy it I'd be satisfied - in that case. Apply that across
the board and I'd be happy.

No you wouldn't. You'd (and 99% of everybody else) would do to the drug
companies the same thing that everybody has done to the airlines...
demand the cheapest & shoddiest possible service at the lowest possible
price, with the result that half the drugs on the market would be
placebos. The pharmaceutical industry would be Wal-Mart-ized... do you
think that's a *good* idea??!?

Next subject... bank deregulation... let's get the dadgum gov't
busybodies out of the way so that WE THE PEOPLE can enjoy the best
possible security & financial service from our banks!

Regards
Doug King

Dave wrote:

On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 10:16:29 -0400, "Vito" said:


Nor did I say drugs should be free or even cheap. I said that prices should
be set by the FREE MARKET unencumbered by government sponsored monopoly.


So patents should be abolished?


Should patents remain in effect in perpetuity?

Cheers
Marty

Dave wrote:
.... I probably come down
on the side of regulation on this one. I don't see Granny being able to
resist those high rates an uninsured institution would offer, and I'm not
sure I want Granny left destitute when one of them fails.

That's Granny's problem, isn't it? The big problem with you Bush-Cheney
cheerleaders... you think you're conservative but you don't have any
courage in your convictions.

Frankly I'm not enthusiastic about bank deregulation either, with the
exception of a few provisions I'd like to see dropped. I like the Fed,
too. We pay the price for stability & safety by having steady background
inflation, but that's preferable IMHO to the cyclic booms & busts of
earlier times... and the possibility of your money evaporating suddenly...

Regards
Doug "Shinplasters? No Thanks" King

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 10:16:29 -0400, "Vito" said:

Nor did I say drugs should be free or even cheap. I said that prices
should
be set by the FREE MARKET unencumbered by government sponsored monopoly.

So patents should be abolished?

(patiently) No David. Patents are guaranteed in the Constitution. Currently,
the term of a patent is IIRC 20 years from application, 17 from patent
grant, or in case of medicines, at least 14 years after FDA approval. That's
fine. The problem comes from laws that require consumers to buy from only
one of many suppliers licensed by the patent holder and from laws requiring
one to obtain an MDs approval to buy a given drug. This creates a situation
in which we are not allowed to choose which of several similar medicines to
buy to treat a given illness - our MD makes that choice based on
advertisements in his trade journals AND commissions paid him for
prescribing certain brands. Thus, where you and I might price shop, the MD
is likely to prescribe the brand that pays the greater commission.
Compounding this are laws preventing us from buying even these prescribed
medicines overseas.

I've been taking x grams of Amaryl/day for years, monitoring my blood sugar
to assure the efficacy of that dose. I do the same with Glucophage, but use
a generic. Quarterly, I miss an afternoon of work to spend an hour in an
MDs office of which I see the MD for less than 5 minutes while he does a
cursory exam, all to get a prescription for two drug nobody abuses. Then I
carry the prescriptions to a pharmacy where I pay more "copay" than I could
buy the same drugs for in Canada or Mexico and my HMO pays even more. It
doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that I could save myself and
my HMO mucho money by simply looking at the spam I get every day, picking
the cheapest prices, and buying these drugs myself. But No! The law prevents
that.

"DSK" wrote
Vito wrote:
That' odd. My brother, a mere Chiropractor, nets over $500,000/yr
working a
40 hour week. Do these MDs practise in the USA or ?

Yes. They work at state university medical centers or in rural counties.

That's comparing apples and oranges - top paid PhDs with bottom paid MDs. An
assistant prof in a rural college makes alot less than $125K/year too.

But even then the numbers don't compute. You correctly note that few MDs
work 40 hour weeks. The local *rural* MD charges $100 for a routine visit
lasting *maybe* 5 minutes. At twice that (10 min) per patient that's
$1,248,000/yr gross. Out of that he pays a nurse and a receptionist perhaps
the $48K and another $25K rent so even if he pays $150,000 for his
malpractiing peers misadventures he still nets $million/yr *IF* he actually
works just 40 hours a week.


BTW I don't know of a single MD who works 40 hour weeks. Most work 60+
hours a week, many work 90 hour weeks. Since the requirements for
resident work hours was chopped, somebody has to take up the slack. And
if one has research projects on the bench, then usually they work about
twice as many hours per week as their own residents.

That's a whole different problem demonstrating another flaw in a union
controlled system. We've all heard of unions that bankrupt employers or
drove them overseas with impossible demands. Well that is exactly what the
MDs' union (AMA) is doing to MDs - killing the golden goose by artificially
limiting the number of MDs.

BTW, would anybody here choose to see an MD who gets only 4-5 hours sleep a
night? Maybe that's why malpractice rates are high.

Medical care in this country is headed for a train wreck, and it's being
speeded up by people who insist it's the fault of those damn rich
doctors. If you think doctors are the problem, next time you're sick
just cut out the middleman... go straight to a lawyer.

You're right! It isn't the MDs per se. It is their union - the AMA - and
prescription drug laws. Get rid of them and the problem largely goes away.
All it takes is 3 calls from the Oval Office. 1. Hello AG? I want the AMA
investigated and prosecuted with the same vigor as Martha Stewart. 2. Hello
Mr Speaker, let get rid of those laws prohibiting Americans from buying
medicines overseas. 3. Hi Mr Secretary - I want you to have FDA remove all
*Non-narcotic* drugs from the prescription drug list. No, regulate them for
purity and all just let them be sold without prescription. Thanks. And
BINGO.

Not really. If you need cheap AIDS medication then I guess the answer is
to move to Africa.

No (Duh-uh) the answer is to buy your drugs from Africa without moving there
(You have heard of mail haven't you?) but GWB won't allow that so only very
rich US victims get to survive.

..... Price goes up, numbers of people who buy goes down...

YES! Because people who can't afford the higher price DIE. We're not
talking about frozen pork bellies, remember.

..... The problem here is that people continue to buy drugs they "can't
afford" and then complain. If you don't put your money where your mouth
is, the market system will whipsaw you 8 days a week.

Time for your medicine again old boy, you've beome incoherent.

Look back in history and see if you can find a time period when medical
care and drugs were cheap.

Easily - before there was an AMA.

....... You'd (and 99% of everybody else) would do to the drug
companies the same thing that everybody has done to the airlines...
demand the cheapest & shoddiest possible service at the lowest possible
price, with the result that half the drugs on the market would be
placebos. The pharmaceutical industry would be Wal-Mart-ized... do you
think that's a *good* idea??!?

Has anybody even vaguely mentioned disestablishing FDA? No! Then whatever
are you having this hissy fit about? Quick! Your Ritilan! (Gawd, I'd heard
about the bad LSD floating around 'nam but never thot it's still be causing
dilusions).

Next subject... bank deregulation...

Naw, Republicans deregulated the S&Ls back when Reagan was in remember,
allowing the anti-smut darlings or the religious right to steal peoples'
retirement savings. Even Hillary got in on it! Cost every man woman and
child in the USA over $5000 apiece. Not even Bush is that stupid .... err
.... is he?????

Vito wrote:
But even then the numbers don't compute. You correctly note that few MDs
work 40 hour weeks. The local *rural* MD charges $100 for a routine visit
lasting *maybe* 5 minutes.

Baloney. If you go to a doctor who sees you for "only five minutes" then
you need to go to another doctor. Most capitation rates are in the 10 ~
15 minute range and that's for those docs under the corporate thumb
demanding high turnover.




... At twice that (10 min) per patient that's
$1,248,000/yr gross. Out of that he pays a nurse and a receptionist perhaps
the $48K and another $25K rent so even if he pays $150,000 for his
malpractiing peers misadventures he still nets $million/yr *IF* he actually
works just 40 hours a week.

Meanwhile, he is also paying an accountant and a lawyer and a collection
agency because the HMOs and insurance companies have written in their
business plan to avoid paying, or delay... add the time & effort spent
on Medicare and Medicaid collections, which is an obnoxious PITA and the
payment rate is so low that it doesn't even cover overhead... Let's not
forget that cool 1/4 mill in medical school debt he's trying to pay
off... and the price of an office full of fancy equipment.. then factor
in the number of people who can't pay and don't have insurance and get
free treatment...

Vito, you seem convinced that doctors have such a cushy life... why
don't you go to med school and try it for yourself?



.... And
if one has research projects on the bench, then usually they work about
twice as many hours per week as their own residents.


That's a whole different problem demonstrating another flaw in a union
controlled system. We've all heard of unions that bankrupt employers or
drove them overseas with impossible demands. Well that is exactly what the
MDs' union (AMA) is doing to MDs - killing the golden goose by artificially
limiting the number of MDs.

???

Where do you get this malarkey? The number of MDs per capita has been
going up for the last two decades...


BTW, would anybody here choose to see an MD who gets only 4-5 hours sleep a
night? Maybe that's why malpractice rates are high.

Maybe you get crappy service from you doctor(s) because you've got a
crappy attitude. Have you threatened to sue your doctor to his face?


(repeat) If you think doctors are the problem, next time you're sick
just cut out the middleman... go straight to a lawyer.


Not really. If you need cheap AIDS medication then I guess the answer is
to move to Africa.


No (Duh-uh) the answer is to buy your drugs from Africa without moving there
(You have heard of mail haven't you?) but GWB won't allow that so only very
rich US victims get to survive.

So let's assume that this law is removed... poof, buy your AIDs drugs
(or any other drugs) from Africa... now you've got some real drugs, some
faked drugs, and some African vendors who simply take your money and
laugh... result... average cost per actual dose goes *up* and
effectiveness goes down.

Next idea, Mr Doctor-Hating Genius?

DSK

I wouldn't mind if the doctor only saw me for 5 minutes. It's the hour wait
after my appointment time that gets to me.
By the way I get sick of doctors bitching about malpractice insurance. I
haven't noticed any of them having to give up their Mercedes or 10,000 sq. ft.
house or 45' boat kept in Annapolis where slip fees are 5 times normal.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"Trains are a winter sport"

SAIL LOCO wrote:
I wouldn't mind if the doctor only saw me for 5 minutes. It's the hour wait
after my appointment time that gets to me.
By the way I get sick of doctors bitching about malpractice insurance. I
haven't noticed any of them having to give up their Mercedes or 10,000 sq. ft.
house or 45' boat kept in Annapolis where slip fees are 5 times normal.

Hey Loco... next time you're in that neighborhood, count the lawyer's
boats & Mercedes.

DSK