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OT - If you watched Ben Barnes last night on 60 Minutes II....
'60 Minutes' Documents on Bush Might Be Fake
By Robert B. Bluey CNSNews.com Staff Writer September 09, 2004 (CNSNews.com) - The 32-year-old documents produced Wednesday by the CBS News program "60 Minutes," shedding a negative light on President Bush's service in the Texas Air National Guard, may have been forged using a current word processing program, according to typography experts. Three independent typography experts told CNSNews.com they were suspicious of the documents from 1972 and 1973 because they were typed using a proportional font, not common at that time, and they used a superscript font feature found in today's Microsoft Word program. The "60 Minutes" segment included an interview with former Texas lieutenant governor Ben Barnes, who criticized Bush's service. The news program also produced a series of memos that claim Bush refused to follow an order to undertake a medical examination. The documents came from the "personal office file" of Bush's former squadron commander Jerry B. Killian, according to Kelli Edwards, a spokeswoman for "60 Minutes," who was quoted in Thursday's Washington Post. Edwards declined to tell the Post how the news program obtained the documents. But the experts interviewed by CNSNews.com homed in on several aspects of a May 4, 1972, memo, which was part of the "60 Minutes" segment and was posted on the CBS News website Thursday. "It was highly out of the ordinary for an organization, even the Air Force, to have proportional-spaced fonts for someone to work with," said Allan Haley, director of words and letters at Agfa Monotype in Wilmington, Mass. "I'm suspect in that I did work for the U.S. Army as late as the late 1980s and early 1990s and the Army was still using [fixed-pitch typeface] Courier." The typography experts couldn't pinpoint the exact font used in the documents. They also couldn't definitively conclude that the documents were either forged using a current computer program or were the work of a high- end typewriter or word processor in the early 1970s. But the use of the superscript "th" in one document - "111th F.I.S" - gave each expert pause. They said that is an automatic feature found in current versions of Microsoft Word, and it's not something that was even possible more than 30 years ago. "That would not be possible on a typewriter or even a word processor at that time," said John Collins, vice president and chief technology officer at Bitstream Inc., the parent of MyFonts.com. "It is a very surprising thing to see a letter with that date [May 4, 1972] on it," and featuring such typography, Collins added. "There's no question that that is surprising. Does that force you to conclude that it's a fake? No. But it certainly raises the eyebrows." Fred Showker, who teaches typography and introduction to digital graphics at James Madison University in Harrisonburg, Va., questioned the documents' letterhead. "Let's assume for a minute that it's authentic," Showker said. "But would they not have used some form of letterhead? Or has this letterhead been intentionally cut off? Notice how close to the top of the page it is." He also pointed to the signature of Killian, the purported author of the May 4, 1972, memo ordering Bush, who was at the time a first lieutenant in the Texas Air National Guard, to obtain a physical exam. "Do you think he would have stopped that 'K' nice and cleanly, right there before it ran into the typewriter 'Jerry," Showker asked. "You can't stop a ballpoint pen with a nice square ending like that ... The end of that 'K' should be round ... it looks like you took a pair of snips and cut it off so you could see the 'Jerry.'" The experts also raised questions about the military's typewriter technology three decades ago. Collins said word processors that could produce proportional-sized fonts cost upwards of $20,000 at the time. "I'm not real sure that you would have that kind of sophistication in the office of a flight inspector in the United States government," Showker said. "The only thing it could be, possibly, is an IBM golf ball typewriter, which came out around the early to middle 1970s," Haley said. "Those did have proportional fonts on them. But they weren't widely used." But Haley added that the use of the superscript "th" cast doubt on the use of any typewriter. "There weren't any typewriters that did that," Haley said. "That looks like it might be a function of something like Microsoft Word, which does that automatically." According to an article on the CBS News website, the news program "consulted a handwriting analyst and document expert who believes the material is authentic." http://www.cnsnews.com//ViewPolitics...archive\200409 \POL20040909d.html ---------------------------------------------- Are the CBS National Guard Documents Fake? INDC Exclusive Based on Powerline's suspicions of forgery over the documents put forth regarding George W. Bush's National Guard service, I decided to do some legwork and track down the opinions of forensic document examiners that may have an expertise in old typefaces. After contacting several experts, a rather notable Forensic Document Examiner named Dr. Philip Bouffard took the time to examine a pdf of the documents and perform an initial visual analysis of their authenticity. Dr. Bouffard has a PhD in Chemistry from the University of Michigan, but got involved in forensic examination of typefaces after working in "graphics" with NCR until 1973 and taking a two-year Certification Program in Document Examination at Georgetown University. After completing the program, he became specifically interested in typewriter classification and went to work for a prosecutor's crime lab in Lake County, Ohio. Using something called the Haas Atlas, the definitive collection of various typefaces, Mr. Bouffard (and other forensic document examiners) examined the veracity of various documents for over 30 years. Beginning in 1988, Mr. Bouffard hired a programmer to write a computer database program that catalogues the nearly 4,000 typefaces that appear in the Haas Atlas. This computer program is now a forensic standard that is sold as a companion to the Haas Atlas by American Society of Questioned Document Examiners (ASQDE). Though semi-retired, Dr. Bouffard is one of the top two experts in forensic document examination (regarding typefaces) in the country. UPDATE: The name of the program that Dr. Bouffard developed is called "The Typewriter Typestyle Classification Program" (C:\TYPE). What did Dr. Bouffard think of the documents? First, the necessary caveats: - The pdf document is of poor quality. It seems to have been copied and recopied several times, blurring letter characteristics. - Also, certain types of analysis can only be done on the original documents, which don't seem to be available, even to CBS. So Dr. Bouffard is very clear that his analysis is not 100% positive. That being said … "It's just possible that this might be a Times Roman font, which means that it would have been created on a computer. It's very possible that someone decided to create this document on a computer... I've run across this situation before … my gut is this could just well be a fabrication." The reasons why? - Right off the bat, Dr. Bouffard noted what others in the blogosphere have been talking about - something called "proportional spacing," which means that each letter does not take up the same amount of width on the page. On old typewriters that do not have proportional spacing, the letter "i" would be as wide as the letter "m." Except for professional typesetting, proportional spacing was only available on a very few models (an IBM model, "Executive" and perhaps one or two other models Mini-Update: Dr. Bouffard e-mails to correct me that it was seven or eight possible models, not one or two - Ed) that were not widely available in 1972-73; the vast majority of typewriters did not have proportional spacing. Because of this, Dr. Bouffard's computer program immediately eliminated "over 90%" of the possible fonts from typewriters that could create such a document, narrowing it down to perhaps 15 fonts used by a very few models. - Next, Dr. Bouffard began entering individual characters in an attempt to match them to the remaining fonts that were available on proportional spacing typewriters of that era, focusing on numbers. Thus far, one character stood out, the number "4." In the document provided by CBS News, the number 4 does not "have a foot" and has a "closed top," which is indicative of Times New Roman, a font exclusive to more modern computer word processing programs. other characters matched the old proportional spacing fonts (available on only a small few typewriters of the era), but this number did not (please note that this is only an initial analysis with numerical characters). Dr. Bouffard ran this number and could not find a match in his entire database of over 4,000 typewriter fonts that have been maintained and collected into his computer database since 1988. Otherwise, the font is very indicative of Times New Roman, the font that is only available on computer word processing programs. The final word? Once again, let's not forget the qualifications: it's a bad copy of a copy and we have no original document for review, but, based on the initial analysis of the documents by an industry expert with over 30 years of experience in typesetting and forensic document examination, the documents "could just well be a fabrication." In light of this information, I think that it would be highly appropriate for CBS News and the Boston Globe to attempt to obtain a copy of the original document for more thorough vetting, and run a correction/addendum to the story. I still have two other forensic document examiners that are examining the pdf file, and I will update if/when they get back to me. I also plan to ask Dr. Bouffard more detail about the nature of the "th" on the end of dates, though in our first conversation he indicated that some typewriters had the capability to do something in that format. UPDATE: Dr. Bouffard called me again, and after further analysis, he says that he's pretty certain that it's a fake. Here's why * He looked through old papers he's written, and noted that he's come up against the inconsistency of the "4" several previous times with forgeries that attempt to duplicate old proportional spaced documents with a computer word processing program. * Regarding the small "th" after the date, Dr. Bouffard told me that it was possible to order specialty keys that would duplicate the automatic miniaturization completed by word processors after a numerical date, but it was certainly not standard, and wouldn't make a lot of sense in a military setting. "That by itself, while suspicious, is not impossible, but in conjunction with the (font irregularity of the) number four, it is really significant," he said. * Dr. Bouffard said that signature analysis isn't that relevant because the signature could have easily been copied and pasted onto one of the photocopied forgeries from another document. * He said that he didn't know who CBS contacted to verify the document's authenticity, but that there is really only one other man that may be more qualified to determine authentic typefaces than himself. I think that the burden of proof may be on CBS to reveal this information. I asked him to put a percentage on the chances that this was a fake, and he said that was "hard to put a number on it." I then suggested "90%?" Again he said it's "hard to put an exact number, but I'd say it's at least that high, sure. I pretty much agree that that font is Times New Roman." I hesitate to render verdicts, but based on an initial visual analysis by one of the country's foremost forensic document analysts that specializes in old typefaces, it looks like CBS was duped. UPDATE: Apologies for the hasty error on Dr. Bouffard's first name - it's Philip. http://www.indcjournal.com/archives/000838.php |
In article bHV0ZWZpc2s=.826f81b94141a5f1e6c0063cc30abd99@109 4768452.nulluser.com,
John Deere wrote: '60 Minutes' Documents on Bush Might Be Fake By Robert B. Bluey CNSNews.com Staff Writer September 09, 2004 (CNSNews.com) - The 32-year-old documents produced Wednesday by the CBS News program "60 Minutes," shedding a negative light on President Bush's service in the Texas Air National Guard, may have been forged using a current word processing program, according to typography experts. stupid, long for no reason post deleted Interesting! I suppose you think this means that it was ok for Bush to not show up for his physical. We're still waiting for him to tell us why. -- Jonathan Ganz (j gan z @ $ail no w.c=o=m) http://www.sailnow.com "If there's no wind, row." |
Funny, the Bush camp isn't denying their authenticity.
"John Deere" wrote in message news:bHV0ZWZpc2s=.826f81b94141a5f1e6c0063cc30abd99 @1094768452.nulluser.com... '60 Minutes' Documents on Bush Might Be Fake By Robert B. Bluey CNSNews.com Staff Writer September 09, 2004 (CNSNews.com) - The 32-year-old documents produced Wednesday by the CBS News program "60 Minutes," shedding a negative light on President Bush's service in the Texas Air National Guard, may have been forged using a current word processing program, according to typography experts. Three independent typography experts told CNSNews.com they were suspicious of the documents from 1972 and 1973 because they were typed using a proportional font, not common at that time, and they used a superscript font feature found in today's Microsoft Word program. The "60 Minutes" segment included an interview with former Texas lieutenant governor Ben Barnes, who criticized Bush's service. The news program also produced a series of memos that claim Bush refused to follow an order to undertake a medical examination. The documents came from the "personal office file" of Bush's former squadron commander Jerry B. Killian, according to Kelli Edwards, a spokeswoman for "60 Minutes," who was quoted in Thursday's Washington Post. Edwards declined to tell the Post how the news program obtained the documents. But the experts interviewed by CNSNews.com homed in on several aspects of a May 4, 1972, memo, which was part of the "60 Minutes" segment and was posted on the CBS News website Thursday. "It was highly out of the ordinary for an organization, even the Air Force, to have proportional-spaced fonts for someone to work with," said Allan Haley, director of words and letters at Agfa Monotype in Wilmington, Mass. "I'm suspect in that I did work for the U.S. Army as late as the late 1980s and early 1990s and the Army was still using [fixed-pitch typeface] Courier." The typography experts couldn't pinpoint the exact font used in the documents. They also couldn't definitively conclude that the documents were either forged using a current computer program or were the work of a high- end typewriter or word processor in the early 1970s. But the use of the superscript "th" in one document - "111th F.I.S" - gave each expert pause. They said that is an automatic feature found in current versions of Microsoft Word, and it's not something that was even possible more than 30 years ago. "That would not be possible on a typewriter or even a word processor at that time," said John Collins, vice president and chief technology officer at Bitstream Inc., the parent of MyFonts.com. "It is a very surprising thing to see a letter with that date [May 4, 1972] on it," and featuring such typography, Collins added. "There's no question that that is surprising. Does that force you to conclude that it's a fake? No. But it certainly raises the eyebrows." Fred Showker, who teaches typography and introduction to digital graphics at James Madison University in Harrisonburg, Va., questioned the documents' letterhead. "Let's assume for a minute that it's authentic," Showker said. "But would they not have used some form of letterhead? Or has this letterhead been intentionally cut off? Notice how close to the top of the page it is." He also pointed to the signature of Killian, the purported author of the May 4, 1972, memo ordering Bush, who was at the time a first lieutenant in the Texas Air National Guard, to obtain a physical exam. "Do you think he would have stopped that 'K' nice and cleanly, right there before it ran into the typewriter 'Jerry," Showker asked. "You can't stop a ballpoint pen with a nice square ending like that ... The end of that 'K' should be round ... it looks like you took a pair of snips and cut it off so you could see the 'Jerry.'" The experts also raised questions about the military's typewriter technology three decades ago. Collins said word processors that could produce proportional-sized fonts cost upwards of $20,000 at the time. "I'm not real sure that you would have that kind of sophistication in the office of a flight inspector in the United States government," Showker said. "The only thing it could be, possibly, is an IBM golf ball typewriter, which came out around the early to middle 1970s," Haley said. "Those did have proportional fonts on them. But they weren't widely used." But Haley added that the use of the superscript "th" cast doubt on the use of any typewriter. "There weren't any typewriters that did that," Haley said. "That looks like it might be a function of something like Microsoft Word, which does that automatically." According to an article on the CBS News website, the news program "consulted a handwriting analyst and document expert who believes the material is authentic." http://www.cnsnews.com//ViewPolitics...archive\200409 \POL20040909d.html ---------------------------------------------- Are the CBS National Guard Documents Fake? INDC Exclusive Based on Powerline's suspicions of forgery over the documents put forth regarding George W. Bush's National Guard service, I decided to do some legwork and track down the opinions of forensic document examiners that may have an expertise in old typefaces. After contacting several experts, a rather notable Forensic Document Examiner named Dr. Philip Bouffard took the time to examine a pdf of the documents and perform an initial visual analysis of their authenticity. Dr. Bouffard has a PhD in Chemistry from the University of Michigan, but got involved in forensic examination of typefaces after working in "graphics" with NCR until 1973 and taking a two-year Certification Program in Document Examination at Georgetown University. After completing the program, he became specifically interested in typewriter classification and went to work for a prosecutor's crime lab in Lake County, Ohio. Using something called the Haas Atlas, the definitive collection of various typefaces, Mr. Bouffard (and other forensic document examiners) examined the veracity of various documents for over 30 years. Beginning in 1988, Mr. Bouffard hired a programmer to write a computer database program that catalogues the nearly 4,000 typefaces that appear in the Haas Atlas. This computer program is now a forensic standard that is sold as a companion to the Haas Atlas by American Society of Questioned Document Examiners (ASQDE). Though semi-retired, Dr. Bouffard is one of the top two experts in forensic document examination (regarding typefaces) in the country. UPDATE: The name of the program that Dr. Bouffard developed is called "The Typewriter Typestyle Classification Program" (C:\TYPE). What did Dr. Bouffard think of the documents? First, the necessary caveats: - The pdf document is of poor quality. It seems to have been copied and recopied several times, blurring letter characteristics. - Also, certain types of analysis can only be done on the original documents, which don't seem to be available, even to CBS. So Dr. Bouffard is very clear that his analysis is not 100% positive. That being said . "It's just possible that this might be a Times Roman font, which means that it would have been created on a computer. It's very possible that someone decided to create this document on a computer... I've run across this situation before . my gut is this could just well be a fabrication." The reasons why? - Right off the bat, Dr. Bouffard noted what others in the blogosphere have been talking about - something called "proportional spacing," which means that each letter does not take up the same amount of width on the page. On old typewriters that do not have proportional spacing, the letter "i" would be as wide as the letter "m." Except for professional typesetting, proportional spacing was only available on a very few models (an IBM model, "Executive" and perhaps one or two other models Mini-Update: Dr. Bouffard e-mails to correct me that it was seven or eight possible models, not one or two - Ed) that were not widely available in 1972-73; the vast majority of typewriters did not have proportional spacing. Because of this, Dr. Bouffard's computer program immediately eliminated "over 90%" of the possible fonts from typewriters that could create such a document, narrowing it down to perhaps 15 fonts used by a very few models. - Next, Dr. Bouffard began entering individual characters in an attempt to match them to the remaining fonts that were available on proportional spacing typewriters of that era, focusing on numbers. Thus far, one character stood out, the number "4." In the document provided by CBS News, the number 4 does not "have a foot" and has a "closed top," which is indicative of Times New Roman, a font exclusive to more modern computer word processing programs. other characters matched the old proportional spacing fonts (available on only a small few typewriters of the era), but this number did not (please note that this is only an initial analysis with numerical characters). Dr. Bouffard ran this number and could not find a match in his entire database of over 4,000 typewriter fonts that have been maintained and collected into his computer database since 1988. Otherwise, the font is very indicative of Times New Roman, the font that is only available on computer word processing programs. The final word? Once again, let's not forget the qualifications: it's a bad copy of a copy and we have no original document for review, but, based on the initial analysis of the documents by an industry expert with over 30 years of experience in typesetting and forensic document examination, the documents "could just well be a fabrication." In light of this information, I think that it would be highly appropriate for CBS News and the Boston Globe to attempt to obtain a copy of the original document for more thorough vetting, and run a correction/addendum to the story. I still have two other forensic document examiners that are examining the pdf file, and I will update if/when they get back to me. I also plan to ask Dr. Bouffard more detail about the nature of the "th" on the end of dates, though in our first conversation he indicated that some typewriters had the capability to do something in that format. UPDATE: Dr. Bouffard called me again, and after further analysis, he says that he's pretty certain that it's a fake. Here's why * He looked through old papers he's written, and noted that he's come up against the inconsistency of the "4" several previous times with forgeries that attempt to duplicate old proportional spaced documents with a computer word processing program. * Regarding the small "th" after the date, Dr. Bouffard told me that it was possible to order specialty keys that would duplicate the automatic miniaturization completed by word processors after a numerical date, but it was certainly not standard, and wouldn't make a lot of sense in a military setting. "That by itself, while suspicious, is not impossible, but in conjunction with the (font irregularity of the) number four, it is really significant," he said. * Dr. Bouffard said that signature analysis isn't that relevant because the signature could have easily been copied and pasted onto one of the photocopied forgeries from another document. * He said that he didn't know who CBS contacted to verify the document's authenticity, but that there is really only one other man that may be more qualified to determine authentic typefaces than himself. I think that the burden of proof may be on CBS to reveal this information. I asked him to put a percentage on the chances that this was a fake, and he said that was "hard to put a number on it." I then suggested "90%?" Again he said it's "hard to put an exact number, but I'd say it's at least that high, sure. I pretty much agree that that font is Times New Roman." I hesitate to render verdicts, but based on an initial visual analysis by one of the country's foremost forensic document analysts that specializes in old typefaces, it looks like CBS was duped. UPDATE: Apologies for the hasty error on Dr. Bouffard's first name - it's Philip. http://www.indcjournal.com/archives/000838.php |
Since the White House only got copies of the documents this week, from CBS,
for comment on the story, they maybe didn't have time to consult multiple experts on document authenticity and get the reports back. The blogs beat them to it. I suspect that if you asked GW if any of his dad's friends put in a good word for him to get him into the Air Guard, he would say, "I assume they did, yes. Why not?" I don't think there were many doctor's sons who passed the draft physical, if they wanted to flunk it. Definitely not heroic, but not uncommon either. Bush would have been an officer (like Kerry) in any case, and officers had more choices even when they ended up in Vietnam. Philip Carroll wrote: Funny, the Bush camp isn't denying their authenticity. "John Deere" wrote in message news:bHV0ZWZpc2s=.826f81b94141a5f1e6c0063cc30abd99 @1094768452.nulluser.com.. .. '60 Minutes' Documents on Bush Might Be Fake By Robert B. Bluey CNSNews.com Staff Writer September 09, 2004 |
On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 01:14:50 -0000 (GMT), "John Deere"
wrote: Since the White House only got copies of the documents this week, from CBS, for comment on the story, they maybe didn't have time to consult multiple experts on document authenticity and get the reports back. The blogs beat them to it. I suspect that if you asked GW if any of his dad's friends put in a good word for him to get him into the Air Guard, he would say, "I assume they did, yes. Why not?" I don't think there were many doctor's sons who passed the draft physical, if they wanted to flunk it. Definitely not heroic, but not uncommon either. Bush would have been an officer (like Kerry) in any case, and officers had more choices even when they ended up in Vietnam. Philip Carroll wrote: Well, Bush wouldn't have been an officer "like Kerry", as Bush received a direct appointment, bypassing any required officer training. The only case of that happening for a pilot, as far as I have been able to determine. Kerry actually had to go to officer's training. I suppose it was that 25 percentile that Bush scored that qualified him to skip all that unnecessary officer training. Perhaps that is why Bush was under the impression that the order to take his annual physical was optional, as well. Funny, the Bush camp isn't denying their authenticity. "John Deere" wrote in message news:bHV0ZWZpc2s=.826f81b94141a5f1e6c0063cc30abd9 .. . '60 Minutes' Documents on Bush Might Be Fake By Robert B. Bluey CNSNews.com Staff Writer September 09, 2004 |
John Deere wrote:
ridiculous paranoid freetard crap snipped You'll believe *anything*, won't you? Wanna buy a sailboat from Granada? Only a teesy-weensy bit of storm danmage. -- // Walt // // There is no Volkl Conspiracy |
felton wrote:
On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 01:14:50 -0000 (GMT), "John Deere" wrote: Since the White House only got copies of the documents this week, from CBS, for comment on the story, they maybe didn't have time to consult multiple experts on document authenticity and get the reports back. The blogs beat them to it. I suspect that if you asked GW if any of his dad's friends put in a good word for him to get him into the Air Guard, he would say, "I assume they did, yes. Why not?" I don't think there were many doctor's sons who passed the draft physical, if they wanted to flunk it. Definitely not heroic, but not uncommon either. Bush would have been an officer (like Kerry) in any case, and officers had more choices even when they ended up in Vietnam. Philip Carroll wrote: Well, Bush wouldn't have been an officer "like Kerry", as Bush received a direct appointment, bypassing any required officer training. The only case of that happening for a pilot, as far as I have been able to determine. Kerry actually had to go to officer's training. I suppose it was that 25 percentile that Bush scored that qualified him to skip all that unnecessary officer training. Don't bet your boat on that 25th percentile figure. I know where it comes from and it's not from a news source. It's originally from a Bush-hater's online list of all the grievous sins of GW Bush, most of which are complete fabrications or the deliberate misreading of a military document. But if you do bet on it, bet with another raving liberal that cares nothing for the truth. Then you may have a chance. |
In article bHV0ZWZpc2s=.b006ca2047413a79e91d30c92f02c074@109 4778890.nulluser.com,
John Deere wrote: Since the White House only got copies of the documents this week, from CBS, for comment on the story, they maybe didn't have time to consult multiple experts on document authenticity and get the reports back. The blogs beat them to it. I suspect that if you asked GW if any of his dad's friends put in a good word for him to get him into the Air Guard, he would say, "I assume they did, yes. Why not?" I don't think there were many doctor's sons who passed the draft physical, if they wanted to flunk it. Definitely not heroic, but not uncommon either. Bush would have been an officer (like Kerry) in any case, and officers had more choices even when they ended up in Vietnam. My understanding is that Kerry actually showed up for all his physicals. -- Jonathan Ganz (j gan z @ $ail no w.c=o=m) http://www.sailnow.com "If there's no wind, row." |
On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 04:43:22 -0000 (GMT), "John Deere"
wrote: felton wrote: On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 01:14:50 -0000 (GMT), "John Deere" wrote: Since the White House only got copies of the documents this week, from CBS, for comment on the story, they maybe didn't have time to consult multiple experts on document authenticity and get the reports back. The blogs beat them to it. I suspect that if you asked GW if any of his dad's friends put in a good word for him to get him into the Air Guard, he would say, "I assume they did, yes. Why not?" I don't think there were many doctor's sons who passed the draft physical, if they wanted to flunk it. Definitely not heroic, but not uncommon either. Bush would have been an officer (like Kerry) in any case, and officers had more choices even when they ended up in Vietnam. Philip Carroll wrote: Well, Bush wouldn't have been an officer "like Kerry", as Bush received a direct appointment, bypassing any required officer training. The only case of that happening for a pilot, as far as I have been able to determine. Kerry actually had to go to officer's training. I suppose it was that 25 percentile that Bush scored that qualified him to skip all that unnecessary officer training. Don't bet your boat on that 25th percentile figure. I know where it comes from and it's not from a news source. It's originally from a Bush-hater's online list of all the grievous sins of GW Bush, most of which are complete fabrications or the deliberate misreading of a military document. But if you do bet on it, bet with another raving liberal that cares nothing for the truth. Then you may have a chance. Not from a news source? FACT: Bush Scored in 25th Percentile on Pilot Aptitude Test. When Bush applied for the Guard, his score on the Air Force pilot aptitude section, one of five on the test, was in the 25th percentile, the lowest allowed for would-be fliers. [Dallas Morning News, 7/4/99] There are dozens of sources for this, and unless you include MSNBC as a "Bush-haters online list", you are full of crap. Feel free to find ONE source that disputes the 25 Percentile score, other than your own opinion, and we can go from there. |
We know he wasn't a shining star, otherwise we would all have his GPA on the
tube every 10 miniutes. "John Deere" wrote in message news:bHV0ZWZpc2s=.81129a92e9ec1e636a4db3b550309663 @1094791402.nulluser.com... felton wrote: On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 01:14:50 -0000 (GMT), "John Deere" wrote: Since the White House only got copies of the documents this week, from CBS, for comment on the story, they maybe didn't have time to consult multiple experts on document authenticity and get the reports back. The blogs beat them to it. I suspect that if you asked GW if any of his dad's friends put in a good word for him to get him into the Air Guard, he would say, "I assume they did, yes. Why not?" I don't think there were many doctor's sons who passed the draft physical, if they wanted to flunk it. Definitely not heroic, but not uncommon either. Bush would have been an officer (like Kerry) in any case, and officers had more choices even when they ended up in Vietnam. Philip Carroll wrote: Well, Bush wouldn't have been an officer "like Kerry", as Bush received a direct appointment, bypassing any required officer training. The only case of that happening for a pilot, as far as I have been able to determine. Kerry actually had to go to officer's training. I suppose it was that 25 percentile that Bush scored that qualified him to skip all that unnecessary officer training. Don't bet your boat on that 25th percentile figure. I know where it comes from and it's not from a news source. It's originally from a Bush-hater's online list of all the grievous sins of GW Bush, most of which are complete fabrications or the deliberate misreading of a military document. But if you do bet on it, bet with another raving liberal that cares nothing for the truth. Then you may have a chance. |
The issue isn't whether Bush and his people have questioned the documents. The
most telling point is that they haven't disputed most of what the documents SAID. RB |
Barnes in a 1999 article said he called Guard on Bush's behalf - no
debunking by daughter then? Barnes says he called Guard on Bush's behalf By Michael Holmes Associated Press Writer Story last updated at 12:10 p.m. on Tuesday, September 28, 1999 AUSTIN, Texas -- The former speaker of the Texas House of Representatives acknowledged Monday that he called the head of the Texas Air National Guard in 1968 to recommend George W. Bush for a pilot slot during the Vietnam War. But Ben Barnes, who later was lieutenant governor, said the request for his help came from a Bush family friend -- not Bush or his father, who then was a congressman. The Texas governor and Republican presidential front-runner, meanwhile, insisted again that neither he nor his father sought such assistance when he joined the Guard. ''I can tell you what happened. Nothing happened. My Guard unit was looking for pilots and I flew for the Guard,'' Bush said at a campaign appearance south of Houston. ''I'm proud of my service and any allegation that my dad asked for special favors is simply not true. ... I didn't ask anybody to help get me to the Guard either,'' Bush said. Barnes, a Democrat, has been at the center of questions about Bush's Vietnam-era service for several weeks. His name surfaced in a lawsuit filed in federal court in Dallas by the former executive director of the Texas Lottery. Lawrence Littwin has sued GTECH Corp., the lottery operator, alleging that the company is to blame for his firing in 1997, after four months on the job. According to court records, Littwin's lawyers wanted to question Barnes, who used to lobby for GTECH, about whether GTECH was allowed to keep its lucrative state contract in exchange for Barnes' silence about the Guard matter. That theory has been dismissed as unfounded by GTECH, Barnes and Bush. Barnes testified for several hours Monday in a deposition in the case. Afterwards, his lawyer issued a written statement saying Barnes had been contacted by the now-deceased Sidney Adger, a Houston oilman and friend of the elder Bush. ''Mr. Barnes was contacted by Sid Adger and asked to recommend George W. Bush for a pilot position with the Air National Guard. Barnes called Gen. (James) Rose (Texas Air Guard commander) and did so,'' the statement said. ''Neither Congressman Bush nor any other member of the Bush family asked Barnes' help. Barnes has no knowledge that Governor Bush or President Bush knew of Barnes' recommendation,'' the statement said. Barnes also said he met in September 1998 with Donald L. Evans, a longtime friend and chief fund-raiser for Governor Bush. Barnes told Evans about Adger's request, and ''Governor Bush wrote Barnes a note thanking him for his candor in acknowledging that Barnes received no call from any member of the Bush family.'' In an interview with The Associated Press, Evans said he met with Barnes on his own initiative, without informing the governor in advance. At the time, he was Bush's gubernatorial campaign chairman and was concerned only about that contest, Evans said. Bush joined the National Guard in 1968, at the height of the Vietnam War, serving until late 1973. The Republican governor has said for several years that he received no special treatment. Both he and his father, the former president, have said they didn't ask for help in finding the Guard opening. ''I don't know if Ben Barnes did or not -- but he was not asked by me or my dad,'' Bush said Monday. ''People are relying on whether a man who is deceased (Adger) tried to help. I can just tell you, from my perspective, I never asked for, I don't believe I received any special treatment,'' Bush said. Bush indicated that he wasn't concerned about Barnes' deposition. ''I think everybody ought to tell the truth when they're being deposed. I'm confident he will,'' Bush said. ''I'm not sure what Ben Barnes is going to say. But I know what the facts are.'' Asked if he considered questions about his National Guard service a personal attack, Bush replied, ''I think it's just politics.'' http://www.ardmoreite.com/stories/09...w_barnes.shtml OBVIOUSLY, SINCE THIS ARTICLE WAS WRITTEN IN 1999, IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH JOHN KERRY'S CAMPAIGN. Walt wrote in message ... John Deere wrote: ridiculous paranoid freetard crap snipped You'll believe *anything*, won't you? Wanna buy a sailboat from Granada? Only a teesy-weensy bit of storm danmage. |
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On 10 Sep 2004 10:07:05 -0500, Dave wrote:
On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 14:02:48 GMT, felton said: That is one thing, but to be excused from meeting his minimal obligations to the Guard is another, particularly when the alternative would have been to actually serve in Vietnam. That makes a nice sophomoric argument, but has very little to do with reality. I got out about the same time as Bush, and remember the times well. Fact is that with the war winding down the military had more junior officers than they needed by quite a margin, and really had very little interest in making sure those who had finished their active duty obligations kept up their reserve training. Certainly not in calling up anybody who didn't go to reserve meetings. Except that GWB got his "get out of Vietnam free" card in 1968. I don't necessarily disagree that the chances of him having to go in 1972 were all that great, which is probably why he stopped bothering to "serve his country" at that time. I got a 4 months early out without even requesting it, and most of the non-career officers serving at the time had the same experience. I recall calling up the local reserve unit after I got out and being told that yea, if I wanted to earn retirement credit I could come to meetings, but they weren't really very interested one way or the other. In short, that whole line of argument is a desperate effort to make hay out of a straw man. Well, we already know how objective and impartial your views on the subjects of Vietnam service are. I will agree that this probably won't have all that much traction as most folks who support GWB don't seem to hold him to very high standards, then or now, and the rest of us are already voting against him for what he has done the past 4 years, not for what he did in the 60s. |
I'd like to take this oppurtunity to say that in 1944 during WW2 , in
Pearl Harbor while serving in the US Navy our office used IBM proportional-spaced font electric typewriters. Not thirty years ago, 60 YEARS AGO. Nice try RNC but I'm not impressed by your experts. Ole Thom |
On 10 Sep 2004 11:00:45 -0500, Dave wrote:
On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 15:26:20 GMT, felton said: Except that GWB got his "get out of Vietnam free" card in 1968. I don't necessarily disagree that the chances of him having to go in 1972 were all that great, which is probably why he stopped bothering to "serve his country" at that time. I agree that his getting into the guard in 1968 is highly suspect, and probably deserving of criticism. Those slots were hard to come by. My OCS class had a helluva lot of lawyers in it, many from schools like Duke and the Ivys, who would rather have been in JAG if they had to serve, but couldn't get in, and so ended up as line officers on tin cans. It all depends on who you know:) "The 147th, Col. Staudt’s Texas unit, was infamous as a way out of Vietnam combat for the politically well connected and celebrity draft avoiders: Both of Sid Adger’s sons, Democratic Senator Lloyd Bentsen’s son, Republican Senator John Tower’s son, and at least seven players for the Dallas Cowboys had been signed into the unit." The waiting list in Texas was a year and a half. It took GWB one day, and he jumped to the head of the line ahead of 500 others in Texas, alone. It is no great secret that there were double standards in those days. It is just insulting to claim that GWB got no special treatment, when clearly he got nothing but special treatment. |
But Kerry certainly deserves criticism for being a decorated war hero.
Of course, McCain and Cleland do also. Talk about hypocracy! -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Dave" wrote in message ... On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 15:26:20 GMT, felton said: Except that GWB got his "get out of Vietnam free" card in 1968. I don't necessarily disagree that the chances of him having to go in 1972 were all that great, which is probably why he stopped bothering to "serve his country" at that time. I agree that his getting into the guard in 1968 is highly suspect, and probably deserving of criticism. Those slots were hard to come by. My OCS class had a helluva lot of lawyers in it, many from schools like Duke and the Ivys, who would rather have been in JAG if they had to serve, but couldn't get in, and so ended up as line officers on tin cans. |
On 10 Sep 2004 11:47:13 -0500, Dave wrote:
On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 08:45:50 -0700, (Thom Stewart) said: I'd like to take this oppurtunity to say that in 1944 during WW2 , in Pearl Harbor while serving in the US Navy our office used IBM proportional-spaced font electric typewriters. Nice try, but the IBM Model A Executive typewriter, first produced in the early 1940s, was not proportional spaced, but did have had four different spacings for letters. I don't believe it produced superscripts. Fact is that proportional spacing was uncommon until after the 1970s. I am not the typewriter expert that you claim to be, but my link to the IBM site seems to contradict you http://www-1.ibm.com/ibm/history/history/year_1941.html "IBM announces the Electromatic Model 04 electric typewriter, featuring the revolutionary concept of proportional spacing. By assigning varied rather than uniform spacing to different sized characters, the Type 4 recreated the appearance of a printed page, an effect that was further enhanced by a typewriter ribbon innovation that produced clearer, sharper words on the page. The proportional spacing feature became a staple of the IBM Executive series typewriters." That was in 1941. |
In article ,
Dave wrote: On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 09:57:40 -0700, "Jonathan Ganz" said: But Kerry certainly deserves criticism for being a decorated war hero. Of course he's not being criticized for getting medals. He's being criticized for perhaps being a bit economical with the truth in getting some of them and then using them to get out of the combat zone. As opposed to Bush who gets a free pass for telling a few whoppers... a flip flopping whopper. Hahahahhaa -- Jonathan Ganz (j gan z @ $ail no w.c=o=m) http://www.sailnow.com "If there's no wind, row." |
Better take a big breath Dave... cause you're drowning fast!
CM "Dave" wrote in message ... | On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 17:02:10 GMT, felton said: | | "IBM announces the Electromatic Model 04 electric typewriter, | featuring the revolutionary concept of proportional spacing. By | assigning varied rather than uniform spacing to different sized | characters, the Type 4 recreated the appearance of a printed page, an | effect that was further enhanced by a typewriter ribbon innovation | that produced clearer, sharper words on the page. The proportional | spacing feature became a staple of the IBM Executive series | typewriters." | | That was in 1941. | | I'm not surprised that IBM would call this proportional spacing even if it's | not the same as current proportional spacing. The real questions, of course, | are (i) whether this type was available to the guy who purportedly produced | the memo, (ii) whether, if so, the copy produced by this type can be | distinguished by experts looking at a degraded copy from the proportional | spacing of current word processors, and (iii) whether this type produced | superscript. I don't know the answers to those questions. | | The thing I do find persuasive is that apparently a number of people have | typed the same text using MS Word, and the soft line breaks of every line | come out exactly the same as the line breaks in the questioned documents. | Dunno whether you remember using the old electrics, but I recall that you | had to insert line breaks as you typed. What are the chances of exactly | reproducing those same line breaks automatically on several documents using | Word? | |
On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 20:25:44 -0400, Philip Carroll wrote:
Funny, the Bush camp isn't denying their authenticity. Perhaps, because they could be authentic. In all the smoke, mud, and mirrors, it's difficult to say with any certainty what the "truth" is this election year, but . . . This document (for all I know, it could have been doctored) purportedly released by Bush, has a superscript. Note the second line. Also note, further down that 111th is not superscripted. http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/superscrptth.jpg |
OK, The Bush camp is not denying the information contained within. As to the
authenticity, a copy of an earlier made document could have been done with a scanner with OCR software and the print would be what ever, I'm not going there as to fake documents or not, only that the Bush camp has not denyed the information contained within. "Dave" wrote in message ... On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 18:42:26 -0400, thunder said: This document (for all I know, it could have been doctored) purportedly released by Bush, has a superscript. You need to get your facts straight here. Although the documents may have been "released" by the WH, they got them from CBS, who refuses to tell where they got them. I think we can assume that any "doctoring" would have occurred before the WH got them, since CBS would have a more original copy and could do a comparison. |
So you call into question the process for awarding the medals to Kerry?
"Dave" wrote in message ... On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 09:57:40 -0700, "Jonathan Ganz" said: But Kerry certainly deserves criticism for being a decorated war hero. Of course he's not being criticized for getting medals. He's being criticized for perhaps being a bit economical with the truth in getting some of them and then using them to get out of the combat zone. Dave S/V Good Fortune CS27 "No matter how hot a blowtorch burns, it doesn't shed much light"--NPR's Scott Simon |
On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 18:48:08 -0500, Dave wrote:
On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 18:42:26 -0400, thunder said: This document (for all I know, it could have been doctored) purportedly released by Bush, has a superscript. You need to get your facts straight here. Although the documents may have been "released" by the WH, they got them from CBS, who refuses to tell where they got them. I think we can assume that any "doctoring" would have occurred before the WH got them, since CBS would have a more original copy and could do a comparison. Uh, the link I gave wasn't to one of the memos now in question. It was a link to a document previously released by the White House to show Bush's Texas ANG service. While the font isn't proportional, it does show a superscript. |
If you do, you question each and every medal given under said process. So
you also call into question the names and sacrifices of those names on the wall and in all past wars and conflicts. You have questioned , by proxy, such awards as Sgt, Yorks medal of honor, Gary Brenemens Purple heart, and so on. Not a very patriotic thing to do in my book. "Dave" wrote in message ... I don't think that's what I said but feel free to try to demonstrate otherwise. On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 20:08:30 -0400, "Philip Carroll" said: So you call into question the process for awarding the medals to Kerry? "Dave" wrote in message ... On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 09:57:40 -0700, "Jonathan Ganz" said: But Kerry certainly deserves criticism for being a decorated war hero. Of course he's not being criticized for getting medals. He's being criticized for perhaps being a bit economical with the truth in getting some of them and then using them to get out of the combat zone. |
Philip, what can you expect from a grown up poodle.
-- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Philip Carroll" wrote in message ... If you do, you question each and every medal given under said process. So you also call into question the names and sacrifices of those names on the wall and in all past wars and conflicts. You have questioned , by proxy, such awards as Sgt, Yorks medal of honor, Gary Brenemens Purple heart, and so on. Not a very patriotic thing to do in my book. "Dave" wrote in message ... I don't think that's what I said but feel free to try to demonstrate otherwise. On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 20:08:30 -0400, "Philip Carroll" said: So you call into question the process for awarding the medals to Kerry? "Dave" wrote in message ... On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 09:57:40 -0700, "Jonathan Ganz" said: But Kerry certainly deserves criticism for being a decorated war hero. Of course he's not being criticized for getting medals. He's being criticized for perhaps being a bit economical with the truth in getting some of them and then using them to get out of the combat zone. |
In article ,
Dave wrote: Not responsive to the question. Mr. Poodle, we don't care about your pseudo-legal comments. -- Jonathan Ganz (j gan z @ $ail no w.c=o=m) http://www.sailnow.com "If there's no wind, row." |
I missed few physicals when I was in the Air Force. Why
don't you ask me why I missed them? I can't remember. Lets ask John Kerry why he committed attrocities in Vietnam. Lets ask John Kerry why he does feel he needs to attend Congress or committee meetings. Lets ask to see his wife's tax return with her big investments in Haliburton and Enron. Lets ask who stands to benefit from these forged documents. Could it be the DNC? Could it be the Clintons? Could it be John Kerry? (Jonathan Ganz) wrote John Deere wrote: '60 Minutes' Documents on Bush Might Be Fake By Robert B. Bluey CNSNews.com Staff Writer September 09, 2004 (CNSNews.com) - The 32-year-old documents produced Wednesday by the CBS News program "60 Minutes," shedding a negative light on President Bush's service in the Texas Air National Guard, may have been forged using a current word processing program, according to typography experts. stupid, long for no reason post deleted Interesting! I suppose you think this means that it was ok for Bush to not show up for his physical. We're still waiting for him to tell us why. |
Few people believe these are real documents. Even
the experts have disengaged from that view. 60 minutes avoided interviewing anyone with views contrary to their own viewpoint. It was not good journalism. Even if you believe only the evidence that supports this, and don't believe any of the other evidence against it. It still is such a tiny issue that I have to laugh that anyone takes in seriously. Kerry's campaign is dying. He has no issues. His Vietnam record shows that he ducked out as fast as he could. He lied about Cambodia. He defected to the other side. He is a spineless two faced hypocrit. He won't release his wife's tax returns. He is hiding everything he can about himself, because if you knew more about him, you'd have less confidence in him. Kerry has no position. His campaign is based on smear, and it's only serving to alienate many Democrats. Finally, I think the Clintons are working to undermine Kerry. If this is all Kerry has to throw against President Bush, he is doomed. Kerry doesn't know how to run a campaign. GWB is a man who stand for something and has a position and morals. I predict a huge victory of GWB. Kerry doesn't have a chance. Bart Senior (Thom Stewart) wrote I'd like to take this oppurtunity to say that in 1944 during WW2 , in Pearl Harbor while serving in the US Navy our office used IBM proportional-spaced font electric typewriters. Not thirty years ago, 60 YEARS AGO. Nice try RNC but I'm not impressed by your experts. Ole Thom |
"N1EE" wrote
Few people believe these are real documents. .... .... or that chevy gas tanks spontaniously explode or that guns cause crime or much else promulgated by the national media. Kerry's campaign is dying. He has no issues. You're right. If it wasn't for Bush Kerry wouldn't stand a chance. Bush orchistrated the worst deficits ever, forbid stem cell research that'd save 1000s from miserable deaths, failed to catch Bin Ladin, mired us in a quagmire worse than Vietnam and put our best students on Ritilan. Had he done otherwise Kerry wouldn't stand a chance! Who knows what idiocy he'll come up with next! Kerry could win yet, given Bush's record of disasters. |
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:59:56 -0400, "Vito" wrote:
"N1EE" wrote Few people believe these are real documents. .... ... or that chevy gas tanks spontaniously explode or that guns cause crime or much else promulgated by the national media. Kerry's campaign is dying. He has no issues. You're right. If it wasn't for Bush Kerry wouldn't stand a chance. Bush orchistrated the worst deficits ever, forbid stem cell research that'd save 1000s from miserable deaths, failed to catch Bin Ladin, mired us in a quagmire worse than Vietnam and put our best students on Ritilan. Had he done otherwise Kerry wouldn't stand a chance! Who knows what idiocy he'll come up with next! Kerry could win yet, given Bush's record of disasters. Kind of pitiful, isn't it? I have always said that I will be voting for gridlock. When one party controls everything, there seems to be no compromise and, quite frankly, no good judgment. As I heard someone say the other day on one of the programs, "with a two party system, you are only one party away from totalitarianism." How true, and, in effect, that is what we have when one party is completely in charge...either party. |
In article ,
N1EE wrote: I missed few physicals when I was in the Air Force. Why don't you ask me why I missed them? I can't remember. Did you have to resign your commission because of it? Lets ask John Kerry why he committed attrocities in Vietnam. Seems like a reasonable question. Lets ask John Kerry why he does feel he needs to attend Congress or committee meetings. I think because he's a senator. Lets ask to see his wife's tax return with her big investments in Haliburton and Enron. Fine. Let's ask Cheney too! Lets ask who stands to benefit from these forged documents. Good question, assuming they're forgeries. Either way, good question! Could it be the DNC? Doubtful. Could it be the Clintons? How's that? To sell more of their books? Could it be John Kerry? So he could be totally discredited if it came out? Hardly. -- Jonathan Ganz (j gan z @ $ail no w.c=o=m) http://www.sailnow.com "If there's no wind, row." |
In article ,
N1EE wrote: Few people believe these are real documents. Even the experts have disengaged from that view. 60 minutes avoided interviewing anyone with views contrary to their own viewpoint. It was not good journalism. Few people believe you're a man, but we don't hold that against you. Even if you believe only the evidence that supports this, and don't believe any of the other evidence against it. It still is such a tiny issue that I have to laugh that anyone takes in seriously. Just like what Kerry did or didn't do 35 years ago? Kerry's campaign is dying. He has no issues. His In fact, his issues about the economy, the war, etc. need to be talked about. Finally, I think the Clintons are working to undermine Kerry. Hahaha... talk about conspiracy theories! GWB is a man who stand for something and has a position and morals. He stand for corruption and illegitimacy. -- Jonathan Ganz (j gan z @ $ail no w.c=o=m) http://www.sailnow.com "If there's no wind, row." |
I haven't watched 60 minutes since they intentionally lied about life in the
old Panama Canal Zone back 25 years ago. We knew they had been provided factual information so it wasn't unintentional distortion but intentional lies. Since then every time they have bashed something or someone I have always thought, "if 60 minutes is against them . .they can't be ALL bad." This isn't anything new . .. . .but this time we have other sources of information and sources of 'journalism' rather than distorted propaganda. Wonder what the former major media are going to do now? The unemployment line is thataway!!!! M. Now for the whiny litany of "I suppose you listen to . . . .and the standard knee jerk regurgiatated laundry list of whomevers." Thankfully you will never get it. You gotta have a mind before you can waste it. "N1EE" wrote in message om... I missed few physicals when I was in the Air Force. Why don't you ask me why I missed them? I can't remember. Lets ask John Kerry why he committed attrocities in Vietnam. Lets ask John Kerry why he does feel he needs to attend Congress or committee meetings. Lets ask to see his wife's tax return with her big investments in Haliburton and Enron. Lets ask who stands to benefit from these forged documents. Could it be the DNC? Could it be the Clintons? Could it be John Kerry? (Jonathan Ganz) wrote John Deere wrote: '60 Minutes' Documents on Bush Might Be Fake By Robert B. Bluey CNSNews.com Staff Writer September 09, 2004 (CNSNews.com) - The 32-year-old documents produced Wednesday by the CBS News program "60 Minutes," shedding a negative light on President Bush's service in the Texas Air National Guard, may have been forged using a current word processing program, according to typography experts. stupid, long for no reason post deleted Interesting! I suppose you think this means that it was ok for Bush to not show up for his physical. We're still waiting for him to tell us why. |
In article ,
Michael wrote: I haven't watched 60 minutes since they intentionally lied about life in the old Panama Canal Zone back 25 years ago. We knew they had been provided factual information so it wasn't unintentional distortion but intentional lies. Since then every time they have bashed something or someone I have always thought, "if 60 minutes is against them . .they can't be ALL bad." This isn't anything new . .. . .but this time we have other sources of information and sources of 'journalism' rather than distorted propaganda. Wonder what the former major media are going to do now? The unemployment line is thataway!!!! Unfortunately, you're right about the unemployment line... but it's getting so long that there's not much point in getting in it. Now for the whiny litany of "I suppose you listen to . . . .and the standard knee jerk regurgiatated laundry list of whomevers." Thankfully you will never get it. You gotta have a mind before you can waste it. Sounds like you've got something to work on... -- Jonathan Ganz (j gan z @ $ail no w.c=o=m) http://www.sailnow.com "If there's no wind, row." |
Michael wrote:
.... Thankfully you will never get it. You gotta have a mind before you can waste it. you mean like, somebody who has been repeatedly given easily verifiable facts about economic conditions during the Great Depression, and still keeps spouting the same line of malarkey? DSK |
In article ,
DSK wrote: Michael wrote: .... Thankfully you will never get it. You gotta have a mind before you can waste it. you mean like, somebody who has been repeatedly given easily verifiable facts about economic conditions during the Great Depression, and still keeps spouting the same line of malarkey? Doug, you're not talking about Bush being the only president since Herbert Hoover to have a net loss of jobs during his administration are you? -- Jonathan Ganz (j gan z @ $ail no w.c=o=m) http://www.sailnow.com "If there's no wind, row." |
"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message Unfortunately, you're right about the unemployment line... but it's getting so long that there's not much point in getting in it. The current unemployment rate just dropped from 5.5% to 5.4%. The avg. unemployment rate during the Clinton administration was 5.8%. Doesn't wash. People are beginning to tune Kerry out when he talks about the horrendous unemployment rate. They don't believe him any more. Max |
In article . net,
Maxprop wrote: "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message Unfortunately, you're right about the unemployment line... but it's getting so long that there's not much point in getting in it. The current unemployment rate just dropped from 5.5% to 5.4%. The avg. unemployment rate during the Clinton administration was 5.8%. Doesn't wash. People are beginning to tune Kerry out when he talks about the horrendous unemployment rate. They don't believe him any more. It's easy to cite facts but not the truth. Yes, the UER just dropped 0.1%. However, it was completely due to people dropping off the employment rolls not due to job growth. 144K people found jobs. But the economy needs about 150-200K to break even on job loss/job creation. -- Jonathan Ganz (j gan z @ $ail no w.c=o=m) http://www.sailnow.com "If there's no wind, row." |
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