In article . net,
Maxprop wrote:

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message

What has Kerry voted for while in office that you admire?

Just about everything if you bother to actually read about his votes.

Ah, then you must be happy that Kerry went out of his way to block The
Vietnam Human Rights Act, an amendment to HR 1950, which would provide for
improving human rights and religious freedom in Vietnam prior to that
country receiving money from, or trade status with, the US?

You mean just like McCain???

"Opponents of the bill, like Kerry and Senator John McCain of Arizona,
insist that the carrot of "engagement" will do more to nurture human
rights in Vietnam than the stick of sanctions."

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/...vietnam_today/





--
Jonathan Ganz (j gan z @ $ail no w.c=o=m)
http://www.sailnow.com
"If there's no wind, row."

In article ,
Jonathan Ganz wrote:
In article . net,
Maxprop wrote:

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message

What has Kerry voted for while in office that you admire?

Just about everything if you bother to actually read about his votes.

Ah, then you must be happy that Kerry went out of his way to block The
Vietnam Human Rights Act, an amendment to HR 1950, which would provide for
improving human rights and religious freedom in Vietnam prior to that
country receiving money from, or trade status with, the US?

You mean just like McCain???

"Opponents of the bill, like Kerry and Senator John McCain of Arizona,
insist that the carrot of "engagement" will do more to nurture human
rights in Vietnam than the stick of sanctions."

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/...vietnam_today/


Oops! I was wrong! It wasn't just Kerry and McCain! Bummer for the
facts, isn't it Max.

"Kerry said the bill was counterproductive and would only worsen human
rights. Republican colleagues who served in the war agreed, including
Sens. John McCain of Arizona -- a former POW -- and Chuck Hagel of
Nebraska."

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...04/8981994.htm



--
Jonathan Ganz (j gan z @ $ail no w.c=o=m)
http://www.sailnow.com
"If there's no wind, row."

In article ,
Dave wrote:
On 24 Sep 2004 16:01:16 -0700, (Jonathan Ganz)
said:

And ever wonder who approved them??

Perhaps someone silly enough to believe Kerry was a man of honor in writing
himself up for them?

Answer Donal's question.

Anyone silly enough? Like his commander?


--
Jonathan Ganz (j gan z @ $ail no w.c=o=m)
http://www.sailnow.com
"If there's no wind, row."

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
And ever wonder who approved them??

IIRC, they were all approved stateside, in some obscure room in the
Pentagon. As long as they appeared proper, no one here questioned them.
The Pentagon had to rely on field commanders for veracity. Kerry's first PH
was for a band-aid scratch. His commanding officer refused to sign off on a
PH application for him because of the nature of the wound, which was minor
AND self-inflicted. PHs are only awarded when the victim is injured by
enemy action. Kerry launched a grenade incorrectly and a piece of the
rebounding shrapnel hit him. Bottom line: he did an end run around his
commander to get the application sent in. And it's exactly THAT application
plus the ones for the remaining PHs and the Silver and Bronze Stars that
Kerry won't sign off on releasing. I think it's because the PH applications
are in Kerry's own handwriting. Or perhaps signed by himself.


Totally wrong! He's put our troops in harms way for no good reason and
got 1000 of them killed, not to mention getting the rest of the world
to hate us! Great job. Sure he's been consistent... consistently
wrong.

Not according to Kerry. Or was that yesterday? I can't keep up.

demonstrating this. So we must rely on his fitness to be the CiC from
his
previous military history. What bothers me most is that he maligned ALL
the
US troops in Vietnam, calling them "war criminals" while aiding and
abetting
the enemy (meeting with Madame Bihn, the titular leader of the PRG, or
Viet
Cong, in Paris) while still a member of the Naval Reserves, which is
truly a
war crime and treasonous. He is unfit for command, IMO, to quote the
title
of the book.

Yes, Kerry has demonstrated his leadership abilities both in war and
in Congress. He never maligned "ALL" of the troops in VN.

He said "most" of the troops in Vietnam were war criminals.

If you
actually listen to what he said, you'd know that. You're being quite
sloppy and fast and loose with the facts.

Most Vietnam vets would agree with me. Kerry cast a blanket accusation over
the entire US force in Vietnam by saying "most" were guilty of atrocities.

Max

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message


Dave wrote:
On 24 Sep 2004 16:01:16 -0700, (Jonathan
Ganz)
said:

And ever wonder who approved them??

Perhaps someone silly enough to believe Kerry was a man of honor in
writing
himself up for them?

Answer Donal's question.

Anyone silly enough? Like his commander?

Not his commander. He practically threw Kerry out of his office when Kerry
requested his PHs for minor, self-inflicted wounds. The suspicion is that
Kerry made the applications himself. And neither you nor I can prove
otherwise until he executes a Form 180 to release his records from the Navy.
So why won't he do so? What does he have to hide?

I believe I know.

Max

In article t,
Maxprop wrote:

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
And ever wonder who approved them??

IIRC, they were all approved stateside, in some obscure room in the
are in Kerry's own handwriting. Or perhaps signed by himself.

Where in the world do you get this crap???


Totally wrong! He's put our troops in harms way for no good reason and
got 1000 of them killed, not to mention getting the rest of the world
to hate us! Great job. Sure he's been consistent... consistently
wrong.

Not according to Kerry. Or was that yesterday? I can't keep up.

Huh? This is according to just about every non-biases source!

We know you can't keep up! :-)

He said "most" of the troops in Vietnam were war criminals.

No he didn't.

Most Vietnam vets would agree with me. Kerry cast a blanket accusation over
the entire US force in Vietnam by saying "most" were guilty of atrocities.

Doubtful. Did you take a poll?

--
Jonathan Ganz (j gan z @ $ail no w.c=o=m)
http://www.sailnow.com
"If there's no wind, row."

In article et,
Maxprop wrote:
Not his commander. He practically threw Kerry out of his office when Kerry
requested his PHs for minor, self-inflicted wounds. The suspicion is that
Kerry made the applications himself. And neither you nor I can prove
otherwise until he executes a Form 180 to release his records from the Navy.
So why won't he do so? What does he have to hide?

I believe you're delusional. You need to stop listen to O'Reilly and
company.

--
Jonathan Ganz (j gan z @ $ail no w.c=o=m)
http://www.sailnow.com
"If there's no wind, row."

On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 04:26:10 GMT, "Maxprop"
wrote this crap:



Not his commander. He practically threw Kerry out of his office when Kerry
requested his PHs for minor, self-inflicted wounds. The suspicion is that
Kerry made the applications himself. And neither you nor I can prove
otherwise until he executes a Form 180 to release his records from the Navy.
So why won't he do so? What does he have to hide?

I believe I know.


You know about his AWOL?





Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now!

On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 23:06:02 GMT, "Maxprop"
wrote this crap:


"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message

What has Kerry voted for while in office that you admire?

Just about everything if you bother to actually read about his votes.

Ah, then you must be happy that Kerry went out of his way to block The
Vietnam Human Rights Act, an amendment to HR 1950, which would provide for
improving human rights and religious freedom in Vietnam prior to that
country receiving money from, or trade status with, the US?

Max


I think Jon-boy wants the $1.50 a gallon gas tax.





Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now!

"Maxprop" wrote in message
k.net...

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
And ever wonder who approved them??

IIRC, they were all approved stateside, in some obscure room in the
Pentagon. As long as they appeared proper, no one here questioned
them.
The Pentagon had to rely on field commanders for veracity. Kerry's
first PH
was for a band-aid scratch. His commanding officer refused to sign
off on a
PH application for him because of the nature of the wound, which was
minor
AND self-inflicted. PHs are only awarded when the victim is injured
by
enemy action. Kerry launched a grenade incorrectly and a piece of
the
rebounding shrapnel hit him. Bottom line: he did an end run around
his
commander to get the application sent in. And it's exactly THAT
application
plus the ones for the remaining PHs and the Silver and Bronze Stars
that
Kerry won't sign off on releasing. I think it's because the PH
applications
are in Kerry's own handwriting. Or perhaps signed by himself.

Sounds like a typical politician to me.

SV

Actually I think there's seven or eight who have been challenged on
"inconsistancies" in their story

You said there were inconsistancies. I asked for examples. Now you say they
were challenged. What a laugh.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"Trains are a winter sport"

"Horvath" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 23:06:02 GMT, "Maxprop"
wrote this crap:


"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message

What has Kerry voted for while in office that you admire?

Just about everything if you bother to actually read about his votes.

Ah, then you must be happy that Kerry went out of his way to block The
Vietnam Human Rights Act, an amendment to HR 1950, which would provide for
improving human rights and religious freedom in Vietnam prior to that
country receiving money from, or trade status with, the US?

Max


I think Jon-boy wants the $1.50 a gallon gas tax.

Actually, I'd prefer it if it were even higher! $3.00/gallon gas tax would
be fine with me!

"Horvath" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 04:26:10 GMT, "Maxprop"
wrote this crap:



Not his commander. He practically threw Kerry out of his office when
Kerry
requested his PHs for minor, self-inflicted wounds. The suspicion is that
Kerry made the applications himself. And neither you nor I can prove
otherwise until he executes a Form 180 to release his records from the
Navy.
So why won't he do so? What does he have to hide?

I believe I know.


You know about my being GAY?

Yes, we all know.

On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 10:53:51 -0700, "Jonathan Ganz"
wrote this crap:

I think Jon-boy wants the $1.50 a gallon gas tax.

Actually, I'd prefer it if it were even higher! $3.00/gallon gas tax would
be fine with me!



That prove you're a faggot.






Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now!

"Horvath" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 10:53:51 -0700, "Jonathan Ganz"
wrote this crap:

I think Jon-boy wants the $1.50 a gallon gas tax.

Actually, I'd prefer it if it were even higher! $3.00/gallon gas tax would
be fine with me!



That prove you're a faggot.

This proves you're illiterate.

"Horvath" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 04:26:10 GMT, "Maxprop"
wrote this crap:



Not his commander. He practically threw Kerry out of his office when
Kerry
requested his PHs for minor, self-inflicted wounds. The suspicion is
that
Kerry made the applications himself. And neither you nor I can prove
otherwise until he executes a Form 180 to release his records from the
Navy.
So why won't he do so? What does he have to hide?

I believe I know.


You know about his AWOL?

Everybody knows that Bush went AWOL. Why do you ask?



Regards


Donal
--

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 23:58:37 +0100, "Donal" said:

Dave, Which is more important? ... the truth ... or the presentation?


Does it really matter if the presentation was flawed?

Not sure precisely what you're talking about here, but if the presentation
is so flawed as to allow a variety of interpretations, any of which could
be
correct, then the "truth" can't be determined from the presentation.

I don't see why you have a problem with my question.

You are placing emphasis on "presentation". I am saying that the truth is
more important.

I guess that you don't care for the truth, huh?



Regards


Donal
--

Including people in Africa???

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Donal" wrote in message
...

"Horvath" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 04:26:10 GMT, "Maxprop"
wrote this crap:



Not his commander. He practically threw Kerry out of his office when
Kerry
requested his PHs for minor, self-inflicted wounds. The suspicion is
that
Kerry made the applications himself. And neither you nor I can prove
otherwise until he executes a Form 180 to release his records from the
Navy.
So why won't he do so? What does he have to hide?

I believe I know.


You know about his AWOL?

Everybody knows that Bush went AWOL. Why do you ask?



Regards


Donal
--

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 00:13:00 +0100, "Donal"
wrote this crap:


I believe I know.


You know about his AWOL?

Everybody knows that Bush went AWOL. Why do you ask?

Despite all the screaming from the left, nobody can prove that George
W. Bush was AWOL. OTOH, the eight year gap in Kerry's records is
quite glaring. I suspect that around the end of october, it will
become apparent to the general public.






Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now!

"Horvath" wrote in message
...
Despite all the screaming from the left, nobody can prove that George
W. Bush was AWOL. OTOH, the eight year gap in Kerry's records is
quite glaring. I suspect that around the end of october, it will
become apparent to the general public.

Horass keeps forgetting to take his med... really sad.

Have you read about John O'Neill's testimony that he was with Kerry in
Camobodia, and his testimony that Kerry lied about being in Cambodia?

SAIL LOCO wrote:
I never heard or read where O'Neill said that. Never! Post a link. Your
starting to look silly here.

Looking silly to a guy who actually *believes* John O'Neill and the
Swift Boat Veterans For "Truth" are totally honest and motivated solely
by the goodness of their hearts is not a big worry for me.

DSK

Maxprop wrote:
What is being discussed is essentially fitness to be the Commander in Chief
of the US military forces. Bush has done this for four years.

Yes.

1- weakened the military and damaged national security
2- diminished veterans benefits
3- ignored the fallen, instead of honoring their sacrifice

Not to mention letting the Vice President use the military as his
personal cash cow and starting a pointless war.


... Like his
decisions or not

It's not a question of "liking" his decisions. It's fact. Ask the Pentagon.

... he's proven himself up to the job with consistency and
unflagging support for our troops.

I guess that's why he's raised taxes on military pay and cut military
benefits like health care for families and VA medical access. I guess
that's why they are talking about starting up the draft in 2005. I guess
that's why approx 47% of the military voted for Gore in 2000 and an even
higher percent expected to vote for Kerry this November.


.... What bothers me most is that he (Kerry) maligned ALL the
US troops in Vietnam, calling them "war criminals" while aiding and abetting
the enemy (meeting with Madame Bihn, the titular leader of the PRG, or Viet
Cong, in Paris) while still a member of the Naval Reserves, which is truly a
war crime and treasonous.

Baloney.


YMMV. The voters will decide.

Yes we will.

And *if* Kerry wins, I expect bogus impeachment proceedings to commence
immediately. The fascist right-wingers are determined to make this
country ungovernable.

DSK

On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 16:32:29 +0000, SAIL LOCO wrote:

Have you read about John O'Neill's testimony that he was with Kerry in
Camobodia, and his testimony that Kerry lied about being in Cambodia?


I never heard or read where O'Neill said that. Never! Post a link. Your
starting to look silly here.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"Trains are a winter sport"

Not sure about "with" Kerry, but he did claim Kerry couldn't have been in
Cambodia. Yet, O'Neill *did* claim he was in Cambodia.

http://www.washingtondispatch.com/sp...es/000553.html

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ...
"Horvath" wrote in message
...
Despite all the screaming from the left, nobody can prove that George
W. Bush was AWOL. OTOH, the eight year gap in Kerry's records is
quite glaring. I suspect that around the end of october, it will
become apparent to the general public.


Shame on Kerry eh, sounds like he got special treatment.

Let hope this info is apparent to all.. about the same time Kerrys
wife says Ossama will be captured.

Joe


Jonboy keeps forgetting to take his med... really sad.

Shame on Bush for killing 1000 of our troops. Shame on Bush for
destroying our environment. Shame on Bush for being the first
president since Hoover to have a net job loss during his term.
Shame on Bush for not doing more to prevent 9/11.

However, good for you for teaming up with Horass. You two
are perfect for each other. Real bottom boys.
--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Joe" wrote in message
om...
"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
"Horvath" wrote in message
...
Despite all the screaming from the left, nobody can prove that George
W. Bush was AWOL. OTOH, the eight year gap in Kerry's records is
quite glaring. I suspect that around the end of october, it will
become apparent to the general public.


Shame on Kerry eh, sounds like he got special treatment.

Let hope this info is apparent to all.. about the same time Kerrys
wife says Ossama will be captured.

Joe

Dave wrote:
Hmm. I notice Doug hasn't posted a reply to this either

Why bother? You certainly have no proof for any of your statements, and
so far you & Maxprop have refused to accept all evidence outside of Karl
Rove's propaganda. It's not my job to try and drag you, kicking and
screaming, into reality.

DSK

I dunno about Kerry but I did know a couple SEALS and other good guys who
assured me were NEVER in Cambodia and had some momentos to prove it. That's
their story and ....

I'm sure if Noxon were alive he'd tell you no Americans were ever in
Cambodia so we know they were not.

Right?

Dave wrote:
Strikes me that when you make a statement of fact you ought to be able to
support it.

True enough, if you care. OTOH, when one person presents logic and fact
and the other is raving about lemon-striped elephants or some such, then
there is really no point in continuing a discussion.


...the Kerry campaign is ... trying desperately to raise expectations of Bush in
the forthcoming debates, saying "George Bush is a very good debater. In
fact, he has never lost a debate in his political career."

And?



I can provide the full text of the message containing the quoted language,
including author, date and time of the message should you not believe me.

?? A straw man?

BTW you seem to want it both ways. Is Bush a good debater? Then why not
go the full three debates with Kerry? Did you think Bush won his debates
with Gore? A lot of people did.

Either Bush is intelligent enough to stand on his own two feet and
debate his positions on issues, and defend his record, in his own words
extemporaneously; in which case the Bush-Cheney campaign should proceed
with the debates. Otherwise, they shouldn't.

It sort of like how they didn't complain about how 527's should be
outlawed until after the Democrats got an advantage in 527 funding.

One of my largest objections to the Bush Administration is that his (and
most of his followers) have extremely flexible principles....



So now where's the support for your claim that O'Neill gave "testimony" that
he was with Kerry in Cambodia?

Ask O'Neill. He's sure to tell the truth on the subject, isn't he?

True enough, if you care. OTOH, when one person presents logic and fact
and the other is raving about lemon-striped elephants or some such, then
there is really no point in continuing a discussion..

SAIL LOCO wrote:
Come on Doug, nobody did that.

Tell you what... start demanding that Maxprop and Dave prove their
assertions for a couple of days... see where you get.

DSK

On 27 Sep 2004 12:52:14 -0500, Dave wrote this
crap:

Face it, the Kerry campaign is sinking like a torpedoed Swift Boat. In their
latest effort they're trying desperately to raise expectations of Bush in
the forthcoming debates, saying "George Bush is a very good debater. In
fact, he has never lost a debate in his political career."



Kerry is only 5 points ahead in California. Face it, Kerry is going
downhill fast.





Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now!

"Horvath" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 00:13:00 +0100, "Donal"
wrote this crap:


I believe I know.


You know about his AWOL?

Everybody knows that Bush went AWOL. Why do you ask?

Despite all the screaming from the left, nobody can prove that George
W. Bush was AWOL.

Your logic seems a bit confused.

Everybody can prove that Kerry served in Vietnam.

Everybody can prove that Bush evaded service in Vietnam.

Nobody can doubt Kerry's patriotism.
Nobody can doubt Bush's cowardice.


It's all on the record.

Regards

Donal
-- ]

"Horvath" wrote in message
...
On 27 Sep 2004 12:52:14 -0500, Dave wrote this
crap:

Face it, the Kerry campaign is sinking like a torpedoed Swift Boat. In
their
latest effort they're trying desperately to raise expectations of Bush in
the forthcoming debates, saying "George Bush is a very good debater. In
fact, he has never lost a debate in his political career."

We'll see.

Kerry is only 5 points ahead in California. Face it, Kerry is going
downhill fast.

Horass is an ignornant asshole. So, what else is new.

Nobody can doubt Kerry's patriotism.

LOL.............. A bunch of Vietnam vets can after he said everybody
committed atrocities.
Also if he's such a patriot why did he bail out of Nam after 4 months?
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"Trains are a winter sport"

Tell you what... start demanding that Maxprop and Dave prove their
assertions for a couple of days... see where you get.

Still no answer.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"Trains are a winter sport"

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 19:34:08 -0700, "Jonathan Ganz"
wrote this crap:


Kerry is only 5 points ahead in California. Face it, Kerry is going
downhill fast.

Horass is an ignornant asshole. So, what else is new.


You hate the truth, don't you?





Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now!

On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 00:48:51 +0100, "Donal"
wrote this crap:


Despite all the screaming from the left, nobody can prove that George
W. Bush was AWOL.

Nobody can doubt Kerry's patriotism.

It's all on the record.


What's on the record is that the French-looking John Kerry left active
duty in 1970, and doesn't show a discharge until 1978.

When leaving active duty, you get a DD-214, separation from active
duty form. John Kerrry doesn't show one from 1970. It's fairly
obvious that he got a less than honorable discharge that he is hiding.
He had this changed in 1978.

That's the facts, jack.





Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now!

In article ,
SAIL LOCO wrote:
Nobody can doubt Kerry's patriotism.

LOL.............. A bunch of Vietnam vets can after he said everybody
committed atrocities.
Also if he's such a patriot why did he bail out of Nam after 4 months?

I guess Bush and Cheney lied then, since they said he was a patriot
also.


--
Jonathan Ganz (j gan z @ $ail no w.c=o=m)
http://www.sailnow.com
"If there's no wind, row."

In article ,
Horvath wrote:
On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 00:48:51 +0100, "Donal"
wrote this crap:


Despite all the screaming from the left, nobody can prove that George
W. Bush was AWOL.

Nobody can doubt Kerry's patriotism.

It's all on the record.


What's on the record is that the French-looking John Kerry left active
duty in 1970, and doesn't show a discharge until 1978.

Horass is obsessed with Frenchmen, and that's a fact.

--
Jonathan Ganz (j gan z @ $ail no w.c=o=m)
http://www.sailnow.com
"If there's no wind, row."

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 12:52:14 -0500, Dave wrote:

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 09:57:59 -0400, thunder said:

Yet, O'Neill *did* claim he was in Cambodia.

http://www.washingtondispatch.com/sp...es/000553.html

The Kerry folks are really grasping at straws when they try to dredge that
one up.

The man said it was "impossible" for Kerry to have taken a Swift Boat into
Cambodia, yet he claimed that he had done it. Go figure.



Face it, the Kerry campaign is sinking like a torpedoed Swift Boat.

LOL, keep telling yourself that. This is a horse race. On 9/20/2000,
Gore had a larger lead over Bush, than Bush has over Kerry today. We know
who won that race.

http://www.zogby.com/features/featuredtables.dbm?ID=8

You can hang your hat on Gallup's polls, but I wouldn't. I think a 40%
Republican weighting is excessive. Zogby has Bush 3% ahead. Rasmussen has
Bush 2% ahead. The Electoral College vote shows Bush with a considerable
lead *today*, but that changes almost daily, as new polls come out.

http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=868

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/


A look at Electoral Votes:

http://www.dcpoliticalreport.com/CurrentPolls.htm

http://www.electoral-vote.com/

http://www.electionprojection.com/elections2004.html

In article ,
Horvath wrote:
On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 19:34:08 -0700, "Jonathan Ganz"
wrote this crap:


Kerry is only 5 points ahead in California. Face it, Kerry is going
downhill fast.

Horass is an ignornant asshole. So, what else is new.


You hate the truth, don't you?

No. I just dislike you, mainly because you think you're hunter is a
"good boat."

--
Jonathan Ganz (j gan z @ $ail no w.c=o=m)
http://www.sailnow.com
"If there's no wind, row."