Nope. We might have another child

Can't you make up your mind?

Nope. Why should I?

RB

Why would I want to make up my mind when owning several more boats
will be a lot of fun?

Because having the right boat is more fun.


Sorry, Joe. Your way is just to dull for us. We plan to move soon and probably
will end up moving again after that. I expect a lot of fun changes in my life
and see no reason to seek a "perfect boat" when many boats provide many
different types of fun. Tie yourself down if that makes you feel safe. We're
planning to do more than that.

RB

I think that you're falling too much into the Boobsprit way of
thinking... that an Express 30 must be POS because... umm, because...
oh, I know: because you hear so much bad talk about it on the internet!


Why does Doug lie? I rarely heard anything negative online about the Express 30
and I doubt he has either.

RB

Personally, it seems unlikely to me that the CR 38 would beat an Express
30 under any circumstances unless you really stacked the deck to favor
it.


Shockingly wrong info from Doug. The CR 38 will make a long ocean passage
faster. It has the WL and momentum to maintain higher speeds and do so in worse
weather.

RB

Bobsprit wrote:
Shockingly wrong info from Doug. The CR 38 will make a long ocean passage
faster. It has the WL and momentum to maintain higher speeds and do so in worse
weather.

You know this from personal experience, right? You've made a lot of
"long ocean passages" on Long Island Sound within 10 miles of your slip,
right?

DSK

Shockingly wrong info from Doug. The CR 38 will make a long ocean passage
faster. It has the WL and momentum to maintain higher speeds and do so in
worse
weather.

You know this from personal experience, right? You've made a lot of
"long ocean passages" on Long Island Sound within 10 miles of your slip,
right?


Sorry, Doug, but you're wrong. It's just than simple and if I never sailed a
day in my life you'd STILL be wrong.
In addition to the data already mentioned, the Express 30 does best on her
feet, while the CR38 will hold speed in a variety of poor conditions. She's a
sea boat by design and excells over long distance. Until Mooron gave you the
numbers you assumed she was just another super-heavy cruiser.

RB

"DSK" wrote in message
| Well, you did say you're not much of a "numbers" kind of guy.

The numbers are generally in my favour Doug... why concern myself with them.

| I think that you're falling too much into the Boobsprit way of
| thinking... that an Express 30 must be POS because... umm, because...
| oh, I know: because you hear so much bad talk about it on the internet!
| Actually it's very nice boat, hardly a lightweight around-the-bouys
| racer, with probably more cabin space than your boat.

No Doug... you're completely off the mark. I could care less about the
Express because it's a fin keeler... and I don't really like fin keelers
between 20 to 35 feet.... compound that with the fact I think Loco is a
complete Idiot... you expect what.... I'm going to compliment his boat???!!!
There is no way in hell he has more cabin space Doug... just look at the
designs and see how far, fore & Aft, my vessel carries her beam. Better yet
look at the SailCalc numbers and pay close attention to the Pounds/Inch
Ratio. Overproof is by far and away ten times the vessel of that low end
buoy nag!


|
| Personally, it seems unlikely to me that the CR 38 would beat an Express
| 30 under any circumstances unless you really stacked the deck to favor
| it. OTOH it's a lot roomier and probably noticably more comfortable in a
| chop.

Well Doug... like you always say.. you can't argue with the numbers and the
numbers show the Cabo to be quicker. What do you want me to say.... ??

CM

No. You yourself have admitted that your memory on the subject may be
suspect.
Shannon 38
Island Packet 38
Hinckley 38
Little Harbor 38
Alberg 37 Yawl
Bristol 35.5
Columbia 38
Could go on, but the thing is, none of these boats will do 11kts.either.
Lists are available at any number of phrf websites. The CR 38 may be a great
boat, but speed isn't one of it's qualities.
John Cairns

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
...

"John Cairns" wrote in message

| And, since there are any number of blue water cruisers of similar length
| that are considerably faster than a CR 38, I would be more likely to
| characterize the CR 38 as "slow". Claiming that a CR 38 will do 11 knots
is
| a bit of a stretch, don't you think?
| John Cairns

Well now John... since you've failed to provide a list of 38 foot vessels
that are faster... and I'm certain there are quite a few.... your point
seems contentious rather than clarifying.

I'm not certain what to make of the last part.... are you in effect
accusing me of fabrication or that the vessel is incapable of such speeds?

CM

Well, I would drop the "considerably" faster and use another adjective,
though none come to mind. Speed is relative, the average sailboat isn't very
fast. Since I started racing I am a more attuned to the numbers, in any
event I still wouldn't consider the CR a "fast" offshore cruiser.
John Cairns
"DSK" wrote in message
.. .


"John Cairns" wrote

| And, since there are any number of blue water cruisers of similar
length
| that are considerably faster than a CR 38, I would be more likely to
| characterize the CR 38 as "slow". Claiming that a CR 38 will do 11
knots
is
| a bit of a stretch, don't you think?
| John Cairns


Capt. Mooron wrote:
Well now John... since you've failed to provide a list of 38 foot
vessels
that are faster... and I'm certain there are quite a few.... your point
seems contentious rather than clarifying.

Yeah, John, what are you tryin' to do... start an arument?!?


I'm not certain what to make of the last part.... are you in effect
accusing me of fabrication or that the vessel is incapable of such
speeds?

Well, you did say you're not much of a "numbers" kind of guy.

I think that you're falling too much into the Boobsprit way of
thinking... that an Express 30 must be POS because... umm, because...
oh, I know: because you hear so much bad talk about it on the internet!
Actually it's very nice boat, hardly a lightweight around-the-bouys
racer, with probably more cabin space than your boat.

Personally, it seems unlikely to me that the CR 38 would beat an Express
30 under any circumstances unless you really stacked the deck to favor
it. OTOH it's a lot roomier and probably noticably more comfortable in a
chop.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Well John... I'm certain of the speed since I conferred with my brother
who was on the trip with me. He's in agreement with my recollection. I can
remember it as clearly as the panicked feeling of doing that speed in waters
that shallowed to 6 feet for long stretches. The Cabo draws 5 feet.

Now I suppose I could do a search to substantiate my claims... since I've
read articles posted regarding the vessels speed .... and I might... but not
tonight. I have a report to complete prior to tomorrow and am posting here
on breaks between typing.

I have not sailed any of the vessels listed so I cannot contest your claims
as to their speed.
I assure you the Cabo38 did 11 knots sustained.

CM

"John Cairns" wrote in message
.. .
| No. You yourself have admitted that your memory on the subject may be
| suspect.
| Shannon 38
| Island Packet 38
| Hinckley 38
| Little Harbor 38
| Alberg 37 Yawl
| Bristol 35.5
| Columbia 38
| Could go on, but the thing is, none of these boats will do 11kts.either.
| Lists are available at any number of phrf websites. The CR 38 may be a
great
| boat, but speed isn't one of it's qualities.
| John Cairns

"John Cairns" wrote in message
.. .
| Well, I would drop the "considerably" faster and use another adjective,
| though none come to mind. Speed is relative, the average sailboat isn't
very
| fast. Since I started racing I am a more attuned to the numbers, in any
| event I still wouldn't consider the CR a "fast" offshore cruiser.

I don't dispute your contention that racing regularly attunes you to
numbers..... but your position that the Cabo 38 isn't a fast offshore
crusier is remarkably uninformed. Since you are formulating these
conjectures without practical experience on the vessel... I'm left to
question not only your reasoning but your objectives as well.

To date you have failed to supply hard data to disprove my claim.

I'll stand by what I said.

CM

No, I didn't supply the hard data, you did. Surely you haven't forgotten
your calculator? You reminded me that you supplied the link.
Your calculator doesn't claim a CR 38 can do 11 kts. As far as being attuned
to the numbers goes, all that it means is that I've been in the habit of
looking at phrf #'s for some time now, and am generally aware of how fast
different boats can go.You aren't claiming a CR 38 can plane, are you? Maybe
you have a different definition of "fast". In any event, I spent a fair
amount of time crossing the Atlantic, sailing from Bermuda, and to the
Bahamas on a boat that is correctly labeled as a "fast" offshore cruiser,
phrf rating of 54, and even we couldn't average 11kts. in 15 knots of wind
on a beam reach in pretty flat seas. Now explain to me how a CR 38 with a
rating of 177 can do 11 kts. TO WEATHER? You know, I don't have any
practical experience driving a Yugo, but I can tell you with a fair amount
of certainty that it will not go 150 mph. Fast offshore cruisers are capable
of closing in on 200 mile days, I'd be surprised if the CR 38 can do much
north of 150, which, by most accounts, is "average."

John Cairns

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
...

"John Cairns" wrote in message
.. .
| Well, I would drop the "considerably" faster and use another adjective,
| though none come to mind. Speed is relative, the average sailboat isn't
very
| fast. Since I started racing I am a more attuned to the numbers, in any
| event I still wouldn't consider the CR a "fast" offshore cruiser.

I don't dispute your contention that racing regularly attunes you to
numbers..... but your position that the Cabo 38 isn't a fast offshore
crusier is remarkably uninformed. Since you are formulating these
conjectures without practical experience on the vessel... I'm left to
question not only your reasoning but your objectives as well.

To date you have failed to supply hard data to disprove my claim.

I'll stand by what I said.

CM

John.. the boat did 11 knots crossing Yellowbank.. thats a fact.

CM

"John Cairns" wrote in message
m...
| No, I didn't supply the hard data, you did. Surely you haven't forgotten
| your calculator? You reminded me that you supplied the link.
| Your calculator doesn't claim a CR 38 can do 11 kts. As far as being
attuned
| to the numbers goes, all that it means is that I've been in the habit of
| looking at phrf #'s for some time now, and am generally aware of how fast
| different boats can go.You aren't claiming a CR 38 can plane, are you?
Maybe
| you have a different definition of "fast". In any event, I spent a fair
| amount of time crossing the Atlantic, sailing from Bermuda, and to the
| Bahamas on a boat that is correctly labeled as a "fast" offshore cruiser,
| phrf rating of 54, and even we couldn't average 11kts. in 15 knots of wind
| on a beam reach in pretty flat seas. Now explain to me how a CR 38 with a
| rating of 177 can do 11 kts. TO WEATHER? You know, I don't have any
| practical experience driving a Yugo, but I can tell you with a fair amount
| of certainty that it will not go 150 mph. Fast offshore cruisers are
capable
| of closing in on 200 mile days, I'd be surprised if the CR 38 can do much
| north of 150, which, by most accounts, is "average."
|
| John Cairns
|
| "Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
| ...
|
| "John Cairns" wrote in message
| .. .
| | Well, I would drop the "considerably" faster and use another
adjective,
| | though none come to mind. Speed is relative, the average sailboat
isn't
| very
| | fast. Since I started racing I am a more attuned to the numbers, in
any
| | event I still wouldn't consider the CR a "fast" offshore cruiser.
|
| I don't dispute your contention that racing regularly attunes you to
| numbers..... but your position that the Cabo 38 isn't a fast offshore
| crusier is remarkably uninformed. Since you are formulating these
| conjectures without practical experience on the vessel... I'm left to
| question not only your reasoning but your objectives as well.
|
| To date you have failed to supply hard data to disprove my claim.
|
| I'll stand by what I said.
|
| CM
|
|
|
|
|
|

John.. the boat did 11 knots crossing Yellowbank.. thats a fact.


WAS THERE A CURRENT INVOLVED???


RB

Capt. Mooron wrote:
I don't dispute your contention that racing regularly attunes you to
numbers..... but your position that the Cabo 38 isn't a fast offshore
crusier is remarkably uninformed.

Of course... you *have* to say that!

... Since you are formulating these
conjectures without practical experience on the vessel... I'm left to
question not only your reasoning but your objectives as well.

To date you have failed to supply hard data to disprove my claim.

I'll stand by what I said.

Well, it hinges a on a couple of things... what do you mean by "fast"
and what do you mean by "offshore cruiser"? For example, the Saga 43 and
her sisters are often touted as "fast offshore cruisers." Nobody in
their right mind would doubt that a Saga 43 would sail rings around a CR
38 in most conditions, but it's a bigger boat & a newer design... plus
it's got a (gasp) fin keel.

I took the liberty of firing up my huge database of boat specs, and did
some sorting. From a list of a couple hundred boats that were close to
the Cabo Rico 38 in displacement & LOD (a more honest measure of size
than LOA) I sorted through to get 50 that most would agree are fit for
offshore sailing, then sorted them by calculated speed (Vmax not hull
speed). Few of these boats have PHRF ratings BTW.

The Cabo Rico 38 came out 34th on the list, well under halfway down.
Conclusion- below average in speed potential.

Some faster boats from the list:
Bayfield 40, Island Packet 37, Corbin 39, Pacific Seacraft 40, Morgan
41, Robinhood 40 (the old Little Harbor 38), Shannon 37, Wright 40, Swan
38....

Slower boats: Hallberg-Rassy 36, Tartan 37 (?!?), Allied Mistress, Alden
38, Nor'Sea 37, Baba 35, Nauticat 38... the amazing thing is that some
boats were calculated as slower than the Nauticat, which is a very heavy
high-sided motorsailer.

Sorry, Mooron... I'm not trying to pass judgement on a boat I have no
experience with, but it's hard to justify calling it fast unless there
is something more to the story here... maybe the one you were sailing
was a secret experimental version?

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Yeah Okay... I've been out on site for the last while here..... Cape Breton
Highlands.

I emailed my friend Beth and she contacted Alex who has the logs for the
trip. He won't be back until the 15th.of this month [Holman Island on
Geotechnical} ... just when I start my project.

At any rate once I get a copy of the logs dealing with that portion of the
trip I'll post them to webshots. Beth was on the trip and concurs on a fast
passage but does not remember the exact speeds. My brother concurs on the
speed but does not remember the exact point of sail.
So I'm still relying on my recollections which I remember as just high of a
beam reach.. and to weather. [ Not close hauled]

Basically until I front up some evidence I'll have to take it on the chin
around here.

No Doug it wasn't experimental and I doubt a Corbin 39 could match a Cabo
38.. I have sailed both vessels. The Bayfield 40 would be left well behind
both the Corbin39 and the Cabo38. I haven't sailed the Bayfield 40 but I
have sailed the Bayfield 32... it's a slug! So are all the Bayfields...
exceptionally slow vessels. You'd better adjust your "numbers" .

CM


"DSK" wrote in message
.. .
| Capt. Mooron wrote:
| I don't dispute your contention that racing regularly attunes you to
| numbers..... but your position that the Cabo 38 isn't a fast offshore
| crusier is remarkably uninformed.
|
| Of course... you *have* to say that!
|
| ... Since you are formulating these
| conjectures without practical experience on the vessel... I'm left to
| question not only your reasoning but your objectives as well.
|
| To date you have failed to supply hard data to disprove my claim.
|
| I'll stand by what I said.
|
| Well, it hinges a on a couple of things... what do you mean by "fast"
| and what do you mean by "offshore cruiser"? For example, the Saga 43 and
| her sisters are often touted as "fast offshore cruisers." Nobody in
| their right mind would doubt that a Saga 43 would sail rings around a CR
| 38 in most conditions, but it's a bigger boat & a newer design... plus
| it's got a (gasp) fin keel.
|
| I took the liberty of firing up my huge database of boat specs, and did
| some sorting. From a list of a couple hundred boats that were close to
| the Cabo Rico 38 in displacement & LOD (a more honest measure of size
| than LOA) I sorted through to get 50 that most would agree are fit for
| offshore sailing, then sorted them by calculated speed (Vmax not hull
| speed). Few of these boats have PHRF ratings BTW.
|
| The Cabo Rico 38 came out 34th on the list, well under halfway down.
| Conclusion- below average in speed potential.
|
| Some faster boats from the list:
| Bayfield 40, Island Packet 37, Corbin 39, Pacific Seacraft 40, Morgan
| 41, Robinhood 40 (the old Little Harbor 38), Shannon 37, Wright 40, Swan
| 38....
|
| Slower boats: Hallberg-Rassy 36, Tartan 37 (?!?), Allied Mistress, Alden
| 38, Nor'Sea 37, Baba 35, Nauticat 38... the amazing thing is that some
| boats were calculated as slower than the Nauticat, which is a very heavy
| high-sided motorsailer.
|
| Sorry, Mooron... I'm not trying to pass judgement on a boat I have no
| experience with, but it's hard to justify calling it fast unless there
| is something more to the story here... maybe the one you were sailing
| was a secret experimental version?
|
| Fresh Breezes- Doug King
|

"Bobsprit" wrote in message

| WAS THERE A CURRENT INVOLVED???

DUH!!!... Bahamas!!! Of course there was!

Now you are sounding like John Cairns.... the Lake Racer and Global Traveler
who has only managed to claim 2 items from his many adventures, a photo
album and an erection whenever he hears the words "Heh Sailor...Jiggy Jiggy
Five dollars?"

CM

| WAS THERE A CURRENT INVOLVED???

DUH!!!... Bahamas!!! Of course there was!


So what was the CR 38's speed through water, Mooron. You were doing 11 knots
sustained over land via GPS, but not through water.

RB

Capt. Mooron wrote:
No Doug it wasn't experimental and I doubt a Corbin 39 could match a Cabo
38.. I have sailed both vessels.

I wonder what was wrong with the Corbin 39 you sailed. I've sailed one
too. For a tank it's pretty good.

...The Bayfield 40 would be left well behind
both the Corbin39 and the Cabo38. I haven't sailed the Bayfield 40 but I
have sailed the Bayfield 32... it's a slug! So are all the Bayfields...
exceptionally slow vessels. You'd better adjust your "numbers" .

Yeah, I was surprised when that one showed up. I think the "sail area"
numbers published by Bayfield include the genoa, not just the
foretriangle. I have not sailed a Bayfield 40 but have some of their
smaller boats, and yeah, they're slugs.

So we can agree that among slugs & tanks, the Cabo Rico 38 is fast?

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
| | WAS THERE A CURRENT INVOLVED???
|
| DUH!!!... Bahamas!!! Of course there was!
|
|
| So what was the CR 38's speed through water, Mooron. You were doing 11
knots
| sustained over land via GPS, but not through water.

Cripes Bob... you were there?? Where the heck were you hiding?

The log ...... bets on sustained higest speeds on the crossing..... across
Yellowbanks to the first Island on the Exuma Chain. Average crossing speed
was well below that.

Wait till I get the log sent to me will ya.... that will clarify
matters.... and then I'll either gloat or bloat on crow.

CM

Ad hominen attacks are no substitute for cogent arguments, but you have to
work with what you have, I suppose.
John Cairns
"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
...

"Bobsprit" wrote in message

| WAS THERE A CURRENT INVOLVED???

DUH!!!... Bahamas!!! Of course there was!

Now you are sounding like John Cairns.... the Lake Racer and Global
Traveler
who has only managed to claim 2 items from his many adventures, a photo
album and an erection whenever he hears the words "Heh Sailor...Jiggy
Jiggy
Five dollars?"

CM

Don't get your hackles in a knot John.... I have to bide my time till the
documentation arrives... until then buddy.. it's just good natured ribbing.

Unless of course you lost your sense of humour along with your baggage... if
so then you'd better get a sedative prescription... because it ain't gonna
get all warm and fuzzy all of a sudden.

Cripes these whiners... feel free to call me a liar then cry a river
accusing me with a quivering finger and sobbin' that I'm doin' de "Ad
Homium"!!

Here fer Gawd's sake... have a tissue!

CM





"John Cairns" wrote in message
om...
| Ad hominen attacks are no substitute for cogent arguments, but you have to
| work with what you have, I suppose.
| John Cairns
| "Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
| ...
|
| "Bobsprit" wrote in message
|
| | WAS THERE A CURRENT INVOLVED???
|
| DUH!!!... Bahamas!!! Of course there was!
|
| Now you are sounding like John Cairns.... the Lake Racer and Global
| Traveler
| who has only managed to claim 2 items from his many adventures, a photo
| album and an erection whenever he hears the words "Heh Sailor...Jiggy
| Jiggy
| Five dollars?"
|
| CM
|
|
|
|

Sail Area Cabo Rico 38 969
Sail Area to Displacement Cabo Rico 38 20.05

I'd like to see the spec sheet to see if Cabo Rico uses something over a 100%
jib to get these numbers like most cruising manufactures do.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"Trains are a winter sport"

Claiming that a CR 38 will do 11 knots is
a bit of a stretch, don't you think?

Well you should remember that the Boobster told us he did 13kts in 8kts of wind
with his 70s era tub.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"Trains are a winter sport"

Don't remember that one, but I was surprised by Mooron's statement, so
surprised that I let it pass for a while. When I first saw the statement
"11kts in 6 ft of water" my initial reaction is that he was loaded and got
the numbers backwards. Then he insisted it was correct, and offered to post
proof in the form of log entries that he was going to post to his webshots
album. In any event, got some info from folks on the Cabo Rico list, at
least one of whom indicated that the CR38 is slower than I imagined, even
got an offer to take a tour of a boat in Port Clinton, Ohio, hope to do that
before the season ends.

"If you are going to windward, a 150 mile day is going to be hard to do. On
a
reach or downwind with the right sails it is easy to do. The CR38 has a 29
ft
waterline so it does about 7kts if the wind and sails are right, and
because
it has a full keel (lots of wetted surface) the bottom needs to be kept
clean"

Quote from an owner, which were my thoughts about hull speed, too much
wetted surface, too short a LWL. Still a great blue water boat, just not a
fast one.

John Cairns

"SAIL LOCO" wrote in message
...
Claiming that a CR 38 will do 11 knots is
a bit of a stretch, don't you think?

Well you should remember that the Boobster told us he did 13kts in 8kts of
wind
with his 70s era tub.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"Trains are a winter sport"

The true sail area (with 100% foretriangle) for the CR38 is 763, not 969. The
SA/Disp is actually 15.79, not 20. And the Hull Speed is 7.33, making a
sustained 11 knot through the water rather unlikely. And I noticed someone
attributed it to Ellis (who designed the NE38, renamed NE400, as well as the
Nonsuch's) but it actually came from the board of Bill Crealock.



"SAIL LOCO" wrote in message
...

Sail Area Cabo Rico 38 969
Sail Area to Displacement Cabo Rico 38 20.05

I'd like to see the spec sheet to see if Cabo Rico uses something over a 100%
jib to get these numbers like most cruising manufactures do.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"Trains are a winter sport"

John you can be as surprised as you like.... I'm certain of the figures but
won't have the documentation to offer until well into the middle of next
month.

Insofar as the owner's response..... there is a Nordica 30 owner right
here with a sister ship to mine that claims he has never gotten beyond 6
knots of speed from the vessel. I understood that statement when I first
sailed along side him in my boat. His vessel will not do over 6 knots... but
it has nothing to do with the vessel's abilities and all to do with it's
set-up and handling.

Now you'll tell me that a speed of over 9 knots sustained is impossible on
Overproof I suppose!

CM

"John Cairns" wrote in message
om...
| Don't remember that one, but I was surprised by Mooron's statement, so
| surprised that I let it pass for a while. When I first saw the statement
| "11kts in 6 ft of water" my initial reaction is that he was loaded and got
| the numbers backwards. Then he insisted it was correct, and offered to
post
| proof in the form of log entries that he was going to post to his webshots
| album. In any event, got some info from folks on the Cabo Rico list, at
| least one of whom indicated that the CR38 is slower than I imagined, even
| got an offer to take a tour of a boat in Port Clinton, Ohio, hope to do
that
| before the season ends.
|
| "If you are going to windward, a 150 mile day is going to be hard to do.
On
| a
| reach or downwind with the right sails it is easy to do. The CR38 has a 29
| ft
| waterline so it does about 7kts if the wind and sails are right, and
| because
| it has a full keel (lots of wetted surface) the bottom needs to be kept
| clean"
|
| Quote from an owner, which were my thoughts about hull speed, too much
| wetted surface, too short a LWL. Still a great blue water boat, just not a
| fast one.
|
| John Cairns
|
| "SAIL LOCO" wrote in message
| ...
| Claiming that a CR 38 will do 11 knots is
| a bit of a stretch, don't you think?
|
| Well you should remember that the Boobster told us he did 13kts in 8kts
of
| wind
| with his 70s era tub.
| S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
| "Trains are a winter sport"
|
|

You are aware it's a cutter?

Hull speed is a general indication of expected speeds... not an upper limit
of vessel ability.

Overproof has exceeded her calculated hull speed on many occasions... for
extended periods.

CM


Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
| The true sail area (with 100% foretriangle) for the CR38 is 763, not 969.
The
| SA/Disp is actually 15.79, not 20. And the Hull Speed is 7.33, making a
| sustained 11 knot through the water rather unlikely. And I noticed
someone
| attributed it to Ellis (who designed the NE38, renamed NE400, as well as
the
| Nonsuch's) but it actually came from the board of Bill Crealock.
|
|
|
| "SAIL LOCO" wrote in message
| ...
|
| Sail Area Cabo Rico 38 969
| Sail Area to Displacement Cabo Rico 38 20.05
|
| I'd like to see the spec sheet to see if Cabo Rico uses something over a
100%
| jib to get these numbers like most cruising manufactures do.
| S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
| "Trains are a winter sport"
|
|

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
...
John you can be as surprised as you like.... I'm certain of the figures
but
won't have the documentation to offer until well into the middle of next
month.

Insofar as the owner's response..... there is a Nordica 30 owner right
here with a sister ship to mine that claims he has never gotten beyond 6
knots of speed from the vessel. I understood that statement when I first
sailed along side him in my boat. His vessel will not do over 6 knots...
but
it has nothing to do with the vessel's abilities and all to do with it's
set-up and handling.

Now you'll tell me that a speed of over 9 knots sustained is impossible on
Overproof I suppose!


You are getting as bad as Bob.

A sustained speed of 9kts (through the water) is impossible in Overproof.


In fact, I've never managed much more than 8kts over two hours. Setanta is
designed to surf!!



Regards


Donal
--

Doug, they were really doing 1.1 kt, Mooron was drunk (what's new)
and couldn't see the decimal point with his fuzzy eyes.

Scotty

"DSK" wrote in message
.. .
Capt. Mooron wrote:
I don't dispute your contention that racing regularly attunes you
to
numbers..... but your position that the Cabo 38 isn't a fast
offshore
crusier is remarkably uninformed.

Of course... you *have* to say that!

... Since you are formulating these
conjectures without practical experience on the vessel... I'm left
to
question not only your reasoning but your objectives as well.

To date you have failed to supply hard data to disprove my claim.

I'll stand by what I said.

Well, it hinges a on a couple of things... what do you mean by
"fast"
and what do you mean by "offshore cruiser"? For example, the Saga 43
and
her sisters are often touted as "fast offshore cruisers." Nobody in
their right mind would doubt that a Saga 43 would sail rings around
a CR
38 in most conditions, but it's a bigger boat & a newer design...
plus
it's got a (gasp) fin keel.

I took the liberty of firing up my huge database of boat specs, and
did
some sorting. From a list of a couple hundred boats that were close
to
the Cabo Rico 38 in displacement & LOD (a more honest measure of
size
than LOA) I sorted through to get 50 that most would agree are fit
for
offshore sailing, then sorted them by calculated speed (Vmax not
hull
speed). Few of these boats have PHRF ratings BTW.

The Cabo Rico 38 came out 34th on the list, well under halfway down.
Conclusion- below average in speed potential.

Some faster boats from the list:
Bayfield 40, Island Packet 37, Corbin 39, Pacific Seacraft 40,
Morgan
41, Robinhood 40 (the old Little Harbor 38), Shannon 37, Wright 40,
Swan
38....

Slower boats: Hallberg-Rassy 36, Tartan 37 (?!?), Allied Mistress,
Alden
38, Nor'Sea 37, Baba 35, Nauticat 38... the amazing thing is that
some
boats were calculated as slower than the Nauticat, which is a very
heavy
high-sided motorsailer.

Sorry, Mooron... I'm not trying to pass judgement on a boat I have
no
experience with, but it's hard to justify calling it fast unless
there
is something more to the story here... maybe the one you were
sailing
was a secret experimental version?

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

The true sail area (with 100% foretriangle) for the CR38 is 763, not
969.

That's what I figured. Most 38' cruising tanks don't have 900 sq. ft. + of
sail area. As usual the 2 biggest mouths on here prove once again they know
nothing about boats. They do keep me laughing though.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"Trains are a winter sport"

,,Overproof has exceeded her calculated hull speed on many occasions... for
extended periods.

And the group is always in awe of you and the Boob's stories.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"Trains are a winter sport"

Well you should remember that the Boobster told us he did 13kts in 8kts of wind
with his 70s era tub.


I'd sure like to see Loco-the-loser find THAT post!!!!

RB

Have no idea how fast a Nordica 30 is, don't recall seeing phrf #'s. Never
attempted to do any reverse calculations, ie., how fast is a particular boat
based on it's phrf #, but I feel it is a useful tool when comparing boats of
similar length. BTW, more than one responder on the CR list told me they
didn't consider their CR38 to be a fast boat, no one, including the lake
sailors, claimed their boat would do 11 kts.

SPEED/LENGTH RATIO (V/ L.5): This is the speed in knots divided by the
square root of the LWL. For example, a 25 foot waterline sailboat moving at
5.5 knots would be at a V/ L.5 of 1.1. while a 400 foot LWL destroyer
travelling at 22 knots also has a V/ L.5 of 1.1. Both vessels would develop
about the same resistance per ton of displacement as they are both running
at the same V/ L.5.
The limiting speed for a pure displacement hull is a V/ L.5 of 1.34. Above
this speed the stern wave moves aft so that the stern loses bouyancy, the
hull squats, and great additional power is necessary for a small gain in
speed. In truth, the typical cruising sailboat probably averages a V/ L.5 of
about .9 - 1.0 and only gets close to 1.3 when reaching in a stiff breeze.
Tender boats may never get above 1.2 as the crew has to ease sheets when the
rail buries!

The modern beamy, super light ocean racer can have a stern wide enough to
resist squatting and the stability to stand up to a breeze so often achieves
speeds well above 1.4, but that is semi-planing and the boat is getting lift
aft due to its speed. My BOC 60 design exceeded 20 knots at times, a V/ L.5
ratio of over 2.6, but those are very specialised yachts.

Ted Brewer " Understanding Boat Design 4th. Edition"

http://www.tedbrewer.com/yachtdesign.html

John Cairns



"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
...

John you can be as surprised as you like.... I'm certain of the figures
but
won't have the documentation to offer until well into the middle of next
month.

Insofar as the owner's response..... there is a Nordica 30 owner right
here with a sister ship to mine that claims he has never gotten beyond 6
knots of speed from the vessel. I understood that statement when I first
sailed along side him in my boat. His vessel will not do over 6 knots...
but
it has nothing to do with the vessel's abilities and all to do with it's
set-up and handling.

Now you'll tell me that a speed of over 9 knots sustained is impossible on
Overproof I suppose!

CM

"John Cairns" wrote in message
om...
| Don't remember that one, but I was surprised by Mooron's statement, so
| surprised that I let it pass for a while. When I first saw the statement
| "11kts in 6 ft of water" my initial reaction is that he was loaded and
got
| the numbers backwards. Then he insisted it was correct, and offered to
post
| proof in the form of log entries that he was going to post to his
webshots
| album. In any event, got some info from folks on the Cabo Rico list, at
| least one of whom indicated that the CR38 is slower than I imagined,
even
| got an offer to take a tour of a boat in Port Clinton, Ohio, hope to do
that
| before the season ends.
|
| "If you are going to windward, a 150 mile day is going to be hard to do.
On
| a
| reach or downwind with the right sails it is easy to do. The CR38 has a
29
| ft
| waterline so it does about 7kts if the wind and sails are right, and
| because
| it has a full keel (lots of wetted surface) the bottom needs to be kept
| clean"
|
| Quote from an owner, which were my thoughts about hull speed, too much
| wetted surface, too short a LWL. Still a great blue water boat, just not
a
| fast one.
|
| John Cairns
|
| "SAIL LOCO" wrote in message
| ...
| Claiming that a CR 38 will do 11 knots is
| a bit of a stretch, don't you think?
|
| Well you should remember that the Boobster told us he did 13kts in
8kts
of
| wind
| with his 70s era tub.
| S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
| "Trains are a winter sport"
|
|

"SAIL LOCO" wrote in message
...
| ,,Overproof has exceeded her calculated hull speed on many occasions...
for
| extended periods.
|
| And the group is always in awe of you and the Boob's stories.

So... that puts you in the realm of those who believe a boat cannot surpass
her theoretical hull speed??

Do tell.....

Loco it's obvious you think that your opinion matters..... but frankly
speaking you are an intellectual midget and any thoughts you feel obligated
to impart are held suspect as to logic or rational.

Now.... Run along and have a crabcake.

CM

"SAIL LOCO" wrote in message
...
| The true sail area (with 100% foretriangle) for the CR38 is 763, not
| 969.
|
| That's what I figured. Most 38' cruising tanks don't have 900 sq. ft. +
of
| sail area. As usual the 2 biggest mouths on here prove once again they
know
| nothing about boats. They do keep me laughing though.

Is that what you fiqured out is it???
Wow Loco..... now why don't you tell us what else you've "fiqured out"??
Tell us again what news item or interview assisted you in making this
assumption?
Tell me again how a 20 minute interview makes you an expert on anything.

I doubt it takes more than a windchime to keep you giggling and amused for
hours Loco!

You are an Idiot.... Really!
I mean that in the nicest way.

CM

So... that puts you in the realm of those who believe a boat cannot surpass
her theoretical hull speed??

No, I know better ............... ULDBs can get up on a plane under certain
conditions and ULDBs and mid displacement boats can surf also under certain
conditions but one fact remains. Heavy displacement full keelers can't do
either. So that lets you out.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"Trains are a winter sport"

there is a Nordica 30 owner right
here with a sister ship to mine that claims he has never gotten beyond 6
knots of speed from the vessel..

Some people are honest.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"Trains are a winter sport"

Loco,

I really didn't want to get into this but the TransPac fleets, once they
get into the "Trades" flying their Spinnakers have been known to peg out
their Speedometers for hours on the Hawaii Run while surfing.

I've been on full keelers that have been designed for racing with cut
away bottoms that will surf and track in double figure speeds. I've done
it going down the New Jersey Coast.

These are special cases so I know the tales can be true. I also know
that the stories of fast passages, above hull speed, are subject to
questions.

So be it, if it makes a good story.

Ole Thom

Jeff Morris wrote:
The true sail area (with 100% foretriangle) for the CR38 is 763, not 969. The
SA/Disp is actually 15.79, not 20. And the Hull Speed is 7.33, making a
sustained 11 knot through the water rather unlikely. And I noticed someone
attributed it to Ellis (who designed the NE38, renamed NE400, as well as the
Nonsuch's) but it actually came from the board of Bill Crealock.

My bad. You're right, it is a Crealock design. I don't know where I got
the mistaken idea it was from Mark Ellis.

Like many production boats, it's also much modified over the production
run. The hull shape is as he designed it, but I'm not sure how much else it.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King