"DSK" wrote in message
.. .
Jeff Morris wrote:
... And I noticed someone
attributed it to Ellis (who designed the NE38, renamed NE400, as well as the
Nonsuch's) but it actually came from the board of Bill Crealock.

My bad. You're right, it is a Crealock design. I don't know where I got
the mistaken idea it was from Mark Ellis.

I assume you were confused because Cabo Rico is the builder of the Ellis
designed NorthEast 400 (orginally the NE38). It is a very different design.
http://www.caborico.com/ne/index.html
http://www.caborico.com/caborico/caborico38.html

Curiously, in 1994 my wife and I were at the Newport Boat Show to check out
various boats to see what would replace out Nonsuch 30. On the "short list" at
the time were a Nonsuch 36, a Freedom 45, and we wanted to see the new NE38.
However, also at the show were three Prout catamarans, and our thinking was
dramatically altered.

One might think the NE38 is about as far was you can get from a catamaran, but a
cruising cat can be thought of as a high performance motor sailor.

"John Cairns" wrote in message
m...
| Have no idea how fast a Nordica 30 is, don't recall seeing phrf #'s. Never
| attempted to do any reverse calculations, ie., how fast is a particular
boat
| based on it's phrf #, but I feel it is a useful tool when comparing boats
of
| similar length. BTW, more than one responder on the CR list told me they
| didn't consider their CR38 to be a fast boat, no one, including the lake
| sailors, claimed their boat would do 11 kts.

It's not supposed to be fast.... look at the stats on SailCalc. Never the
less I often have the boat exceeding her theoretical hull speed. I have
raced boats that are supossedly faster according to both phrf and hull speed
calcs.... unfortunately the realities of extraneous inputs on the vessel
can throw a spanner into the works and those supposedly faster boats are not
performing to their stated potential..

Now seriously... are you claiming that a 38 foot cutter with a full keel and
cut-away forefoot cannot achieve 11 knots of speed because her theoretical
hull speed is rated at 7.3?

The thing about the numbers is that they are general benches for estimation.
To state flat out that a vessel can not exceed her calculated hull speed is
erroneous. My 30 footer has attained speeds well in excess of her
theoretical hull speed.... 10+ knots over a nautical mile... mind you we
were flying all the laundry and the wind was dead astern at 36 kts gusting
to 42 kts. You've seen her hull shape John... surfing isn't an option
here.... she was pushing water hard with the bow biting down.!

CM

"SAIL LOCO" wrote in message
...
| So... that puts you in the realm of those who believe a boat cannot
surpass
| her theoretical hull speed??
|
| No, I know better ............... ULDBs can get up on a plane under
certain
| conditions and ULDBs and mid displacement boats can surf also under
certain
| conditions but one fact remains. Heavy displacement full keelers can't do
| either. So that lets you out.

What's glaringly obvious is your lack of experience and knowledge base...
unless of course you insist we entertain your many television interviews and
articles read on assorted subjects.

Care to illustrate how much less you know on the subject of sailing beyond
the harbour buoys?

CM

The "theoretical" nature of the calculator relates to hull shape/wetted
surface, which it doesn't account for, and waterline length, which changes.
It doesn't consider if a boat can plane, which is an entirely different
ballgame. It does offer a pretty close estimate of how fast a displacement
boat can travel, power or sail. If the calculator wasn't fairly accurate, it
would be pointless, wouldn't it? Are you saying a CR38 can plane upwind? I
would find that extremely hard to believe, considering hull shape and
displacement. Now I have seen the calculator with the addendum that it
applied to boats with D/L ratios of over 150, but again the author was
referring to the ability to plane. The CR38 has a ratio of 359, which makes
it well over 150. I think if you quiz any NA they'll agree. Not my ideas,
just passing them along. Will a CR38 exceed it's theoretical hull speed?
Sure. Will it exceed it's theoretical hull speed by 50%. I don't think so.

" The slowest the CR is, is into the wind in heavy chop, 4 to 8 ft seas
close together. The boat does not ride up and down them, it kind of goes
through
them, EACH WAVE SLOWING THE BOAT DOWN. I find it best to fall off some and
power up the sails, it gives a nicer ride but slows your vmg to 3 kts or
so.
Remember gentleman never sail upwind."

My caps for emphasis.

And another personal response:

"No we don't normally need to reduce sail until the gets around 25kts. I
recently left Lemmington in Canada in 25 gusts to 35. We had one reef in the
main and staysail. We averaged 6.8 kts for 6 hours to Huron,OH and were very
comfortable."

Now I don't know what direction the wind was coming from, but even if the
wind was on his nose, he wasn't doing 11 kts. Could he have done 11 kts. in
a planing hull? Probably, but I don't think he would have been very
comfortable, either. And considering the probable sea state-by the time he
reached the half-way point the lake would have been fairly choppy regardless
of the wind direction-6.8 kts. is a pretty good speed.

John Cairns


"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
...

"John Cairns" wrote in message
m...
| Have no idea how fast a Nordica 30 is, don't recall seeing phrf #'s.
Never
| attempted to do any reverse calculations, ie., how fast is a particular
boat
| based on it's phrf #, but I feel it is a useful tool when comparing
boats
of
| similar length. BTW, more than one responder on the CR list told me they
| didn't consider their CR38 to be a fast boat, no one, including the lake
| sailors, claimed their boat would do 11 kts.

It's not supposed to be fast.... look at the stats on SailCalc. Never the
less I often have the boat exceeding her theoretical hull speed. I have
raced boats that are supossedly faster according to both phrf and hull
speed
calcs.... unfortunately the realities of extraneous inputs on the vessel
can throw a spanner into the works and those supposedly faster boats are
not
performing to their stated potential..

Now seriously... are you claiming that a 38 foot cutter with a full keel
and
cut-away forefoot cannot achieve 11 knots of speed because her theoretical
hull speed is rated at 7.3?

The thing about the numbers is that they are general benches for
estimation.
To state flat out that a vessel can not exceed her calculated hull speed
is
erroneous. My 30 footer has attained speeds well in excess of her
theoretical hull speed.... 10+ knots over a nautical mile... mind you we
were flying all the laundry and the wind was dead astern at 36 kts gusting
to 42 kts. You've seen her hull shape John... surfing isn't an option
here.... she was pushing water hard with the bow biting down.!

CM

"John Cairns" wrote in message
m...
| The "theoretical" nature of the calculator relates to hull shape/wetted
| surface, which it doesn't account for, and waterline length, which
changes.
| It doesn't consider if a boat can plane, which is an entirely different
| ballgame. It does offer a pretty close estimate of how fast a displacement
| boat can travel, power or sail. If the calculator wasn't fairly accurate,
it
| would be pointless, wouldn't it? Are you saying a CR38 can plane upwind? I
| would find that extremely hard to believe, considering hull shape and
| displacement. Now I have seen the calculator with the addendum that it
| applied to boats with D/L ratios of over 150, but again the author was
| referring to the ability to plane. The CR38 has a ratio of 359, which
makes
| it well over 150. I think if you quiz any NA they'll agree. Not my ideas,
| just passing them along. Will a CR38 exceed it's theoretical hull speed?
| Sure. Will it exceed it's theoretical hull speed by 50%. I don't think so.

John ... at 11 kts it's only 3.7 kts above it's hull speed. I said it was
upwind but never said it was a close reach. Really John... you've been on
the ocean. I get a 42 mile passage in 5 hours from dock to dock on my 30
footer in seas that crest at 12 feet plus swells, gale force at 34 kts wind
and gusting..... big deal. That's not a big stretch!


|
| " The slowest the CR is, is into the wind in heavy chop, 4 to 8 ft seas
| close together. The boat does not ride up and down them, it kind of goes
| through
| them, EACH WAVE SLOWING THE BOAT DOWN. I find it best to fall off some
and
| power up the sails, it gives a nicer ride but slows your vmg to 3 kts or
| so.

Okay.. but I was describing a crossing of Yellowbanks... which has no such
chop. I think we all know the effects of chop and confused seastates.

|
| "No we don't normally need to reduce sail until the gets around 25kts. I
| recently left Lemmington in Canada in 25 gusts to 35. We had one reef in
the
| main and staysail. We averaged 6.8 kts for 6 hours to Huron,OH and were
very
| comfortable."

I can claim likewise performance for my 30 footer.

|
| Now I don't know what direction the wind was coming from, but even if the
| wind was on his nose, he wasn't doing 11 kts. Could he have done 11 kts.
in
| a planing hull? Probably, but I don't think he would have been very
| comfortable, either. And considering the probable sea state-by the time he
| reached the half-way point the lake would have been fairly choppy
regardless
| of the wind direction-6.8 kts. is a pretty good speed.

Fine John... you described a passage with minimal input. Of course he wasn't
doing eleven knots .... he stated 6.8... which is rather slow considering
that would equate to my average speeds in good air.
In 25 gusting to 35 that boat will sustain 6.8 easily even with a good chop
to weather.

Look John... these boats carry amazing momentum.... enough to reduce chop
to insignificant equations.

CM

Yeah, I have been on the ocean, sailing up the stream, in a 47 footer with a
LWL of over 40', AND a phrf rating of 54, by all accounts a fast blue-water
passage maker and we couldn't average 11 kts. Sure, we could log 12 kts.
surfing down waves, but we couldn't average 11 kts. Let me clarify that. In
our first 24 hour run, we may have had periods where we logged 11 kts.over
several hours but at the end of the 1st day we hadn't averaged 11 kts., it
was more like just north of 9, WITH a push from the stream. For comparison
purposes, if we were racing a CR38 in a 140 nm. race like the Trans-Erie we
would owe them over 4 3/4 HOURS at the finish line. The best unaided average
we made was 8.5 kts over 2 hours, absolutely optimal conditions, relatively
flat seas, 15 kts.on the beam. Like I said, I couldn't consider the CR38 a
fast boat, for it's design, it's average at best, and none of the owners
that answered my post would make that claim either. What they did emphasize
was that there boats were VERY well built, VERY well finished, and VERY well
mannered. And they all indicated that it was a 150 mile-day boat with enough
wind, which is a pretty good standard, by most accounts. But again, by most
accounts also, VERY average for blue-water boats of this size. And lastly,
3.7 knots is a huge difference, the difference between right there and over
the horizon.

John Cairns


"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
...

"John Cairns" wrote in message
m...
| The "theoretical" nature of the calculator relates to hull shape/wetted
| surface, which it doesn't account for, and waterline length, which
changes.
| It doesn't consider if a boat can plane, which is an entirely different
| ballgame. It does offer a pretty close estimate of how fast a
displacement
| boat can travel, power or sail. If the calculator wasn't fairly
accurate,
it
| would be pointless, wouldn't it? Are you saying a CR38 can plane upwind?
I
| would find that extremely hard to believe, considering hull shape and
| displacement. Now I have seen the calculator with the addendum that it
| applied to boats with D/L ratios of over 150, but again the author was
| referring to the ability to plane. The CR38 has a ratio of 359, which
makes
| it well over 150. I think if you quiz any NA they'll agree. Not my
ideas,
| just passing them along. Will a CR38 exceed it's theoretical hull speed?
| Sure. Will it exceed it's theoretical hull speed by 50%. I don't think
so.

John ... at 11 kts it's only 3.7 kts above it's hull speed. I said it was
upwind but never said it was a close reach. Really John... you've been on
the ocean. I get a 42 mile passage in 5 hours from dock to dock on my 30
footer in seas that crest at 12 feet plus swells, gale force at 34 kts
wind
and gusting..... big deal. That's not a big stretch!


|
| " The slowest the CR is, is into the wind in heavy chop, 4 to 8 ft
seas
| close together. The boat does not ride up and down them, it kind of
goes
| through
| them, EACH WAVE SLOWING THE BOAT DOWN. I find it best to fall off some
and
| power up the sails, it gives a nicer ride but slows your vmg to 3 kts
or
| so.

Okay.. but I was describing a crossing of Yellowbanks... which has no such
chop. I think we all know the effects of chop and confused seastates.

|
| "No we don't normally need to reduce sail until the gets around 25kts. I
| recently left Lemmington in Canada in 25 gusts to 35. We had one reef in
the
| main and staysail. We averaged 6.8 kts for 6 hours to Huron,OH and were
very
| comfortable."

I can claim likewise performance for my 30 footer.

|
| Now I don't know what direction the wind was coming from, but even if
the
| wind was on his nose, he wasn't doing 11 kts. Could he have done 11 kts.
in
| a planing hull? Probably, but I don't think he would have been very
| comfortable, either. And considering the probable sea state-by the time
he
| reached the half-way point the lake would have been fairly choppy
regardless
| of the wind direction-6.8 kts. is a pretty good speed.

Fine John... you described a passage with minimal input. Of course he
wasn't
doing eleven knots .... he stated 6.8... which is rather slow considering
that would equate to my average speeds in good air.
In 25 gusting to 35 that boat will sustain 6.8 easily even with a good
chop
to weather.

Look John... these boats carry amazing momentum.... enough to reduce chop
to insignificant equations.

CM

"John Cairns" wrote in message
...
| Yeah, I have been on the ocean, sailing up the stream, in a 47 footer with
a
| LWL of over 40', AND a phrf rating of 54, by all accounts a fast
blue-water
| passage maker and we couldn't average 11 kts. Sure, we could log 12 kts.
| surfing down waves, but we couldn't average 11 kts. Let me clarify that.
In
| our first 24 hour run, we may have had periods where we logged 11 kts.over
| several hours but at the end of the 1st day we hadn't averaged 11
ktsSNIP

Yeah John... I never claimed to average that speed over the entire
passage... I claimed sustained for a duration... which was by the clock to
win a bet.

How about reading for comprehension.... look back on the posts.

CM