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night sailing - too close for comfort.
out for a late night sail last week, which i do a lot of.
western edge of long island sound, ny on a port tack heading southwest towards the throgs neck bridge. slack tide. particulary dark night. full main and jib set 15 knots wind keeping a vigilant eye out for ships, i spot a black form against the lights of the city in front of me and realize it is a tug and barge and i also realize (in the absence of visible nav lights) his small profile means he is headed right at me and steaming. i decide to tack the boat around 180 degrees and give him some room........assuming (correctly) his course has 2 possiblities--he is going to continue eastbound in the sound or he is going to turn north towards eastchester bay to anchor his barge (partial mistake no.1?). he turns northeast towards the barge anchorage, paralleling my course and i am east of him and the barge anchorage- out of his way. towards the east i spot another ship (freighter) steaming westbound for the gate. he is north of the lane that most of the commerical ships take for the bridge. and a quick visual calculation tells me i can cross his bow without problem and also because he needs to turn behind my stern to set his course for the bridge (and soon!) (partial mistake no.2?) they are both aware that i am here-- million candle power lights illuminating sails had a way of doing that. (my light) 1: the freighter, westbound, is not turning although i have crossed his bow--only slightly and he'll end up passing beyond me, far too close and moving fast. 2: the tug/barge decides to steer a circle around the barge anchorage and end up eastbound again --off my port beam and close enough that i can see the pilot. he has slowed down significantly at this point as i am now between both vessels. (on a starboard tack) 3: they both passed "safely" at my stern, to the south of me the freigher first, the tug next. this was really too close for comfort, and i had my hands full sailing. not to negate my responsiblity, i think constrained by draft here is a relative term, if it even applies. they each had a mile of room to the south (behind me) to manuveur and cannot understand why they would choose to approach so closely, as my actions were clear, my course was appropriate and consistent and meant to give each a wide berth and for whatever it may be worth, i think everyone took the correct actions i believe i was the stand on vessel the freighter was 2nd in pecking order the tug/barge gave way what would you have done differently? gf. |
gonefishiing wrote:
what would you have done differently? Hailed them on the radio to reduce/remove doubt regarding their intentions? -- Wally www.artbywally.com www.wally.myby.co.uk |
Not knowing the area, I have a couple of comments.
I'm not sure you were stand on, given that if there is any doubt about draft constraint. Also, a tug and a barge have status in most cases, but again, I don't know the area. Also, why not hail them and ask their intentions? Finally, while sailing does give you stand on status in many circumstances, it also limits your ability to take evasive action. Perhaps it would have been prudent to start the engine? -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "gonefishiing" wrote in message ... out for a late night sail last week, which i do a lot of. western edge of long island sound, ny on a port tack heading southwest towards the throgs neck bridge. slack tide. particulary dark night. full main and jib set 15 knots wind keeping a vigilant eye out for ships, i spot a black form against the lights of the city in front of me and realize it is a tug and barge and i also realize (in the absence of visible nav lights) his small profile means he is headed right at me and steaming. i decide to tack the boat around 180 degrees and give him some room........assuming (correctly) his course has 2 possiblities--he is going to continue eastbound in the sound or he is going to turn north towards eastchester bay to anchor his barge (partial mistake no.1?). he turns northeast towards the barge anchorage, paralleling my course and i am east of him and the barge anchorage- out of his way. towards the east i spot another ship (freighter) steaming westbound for the gate. he is north of the lane that most of the commerical ships take for the bridge. and a quick visual calculation tells me i can cross his bow without problem and also because he needs to turn behind my stern to set his course for the bridge (and soon!) (partial mistake no.2?) they are both aware that i am here-- million candle power lights illuminating sails had a way of doing that. (my light) 1: the freighter, westbound, is not turning although i have crossed his bow--only slightly and he'll end up passing beyond me, far too close and moving fast. 2: the tug/barge decides to steer a circle around the barge anchorage and end up eastbound again --off my port beam and close enough that i can see the pilot. he has slowed down significantly at this point as i am now between both vessels. (on a starboard tack) 3: they both passed "safely" at my stern, to the south of me the freigher first, the tug next. this was really too close for comfort, and i had my hands full sailing. not to negate my responsiblity, i think constrained by draft here is a relative term, if it even applies. they each had a mile of room to the south (behind me) to manuveur and cannot understand why they would choose to approach so closely, as my actions were clear, my course was appropriate and consistent and meant to give each a wide berth and for whatever it may be worth, i think everyone took the correct actions i believe i was the stand on vessel the freighter was 2nd in pecking order the tug/barge gave way what would you have done differently? gf. |
gf, that is a crock of squat.
a.) no barge coming out from under the Throgs Neck is heading *east* at least until it nears City Island a couple miles to the northeast, and b.) there is no ships traffic on western LIS except for veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery occasionally, and c.) commercial traffic on that part of the Sound is limited to about 7 knots. *if* you missed seeing an approaching barge you were asleep for quite some time. don't give up your day job. fiction writing is not likely to make you any money for the foreable future. From: "gonefishiing" Date: 8/15/2004 4:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: out for a late night sail last week, which i do a lot of. western edge of long island sound, ny on a port tack heading southwest towards the throgs neck bridge. slack tide. particulary dark night. full main and jib set 15 knots wind keeping a vigilant eye out for ships, i spot a black form against the lights of the city in front of me and realize it is a tug and barge and i also realize (in the absence of visible nav lights) his small profile means he is headed right at me and steaming. i decide to tack the boat around 180 degrees and give him some room........assuming (correctly) his course has 2 possiblities--he is going to continue eastbound in the sound or he is going to turn north towards eastchester bay to anchor his barge (partial mistake no.1?). he turns northeast towards the barge anchorage, paralleling my course and i am east of him and the barge anchorage- out of his way. towards the east i spot another ship (freighter) steaming westbound for the gate. he is north of the lane that most of the commerical ships take for the bridge. and a quick visual calculation tells me i can cross his bow without problem and also because he needs to turn behind my stern to set his course for the bridge (and soon!) (partial mistake no.2?) they are both aware that i am here-- million candle power lights illuminating sails had a way of doing that. (my light) 1: the freighter, westbound, is not turning although i have crossed his bow--only slightly and he'll end up passing beyond me, far too close and moving fast. 2: the tug/barge decides to steer a circle around the barge anchorage and end up eastbound again --off my port beam and close enough that i can see the pilot. he has slowed down significantly at this point as i am now between both vessels. (on a starboard tack) 3: they both passed "safely" at my stern, to the south of me the freigher first, the tug next. this was really too close for comfort, and i had my hands full sailing. not to negate my responsiblity, i think constrained by draft here is a relative term, if it even applies. they each had a mile of room to the south (behind me) to manuveur and cannot understand why they would choose to approach so closely, as my actions were clear, my course was appropriate and consistent and meant to give each a wide berth and for whatever it may be worth, i think everyone took the correct actions i believe i was the stand on vessel the freighter was 2nd in pecking order the tug/barge gave way what would you have done differently? gf. |
agreed: for the sake of safety, i always stay away from bigger vessels and
did so on this sail as well, until the tug/barge (TUB) changed course for the final time. i was certain i was ok with both vessels until the barge circled around and was pointing at me again leaving me no evasive action to take. neither vessel produced any indication of warning that i was in the way (lights / horn) agreed again: i realize i should have hailed them on the radio and asked for they're intentions long before events became close. definitely mistake no.1. Sometimes i do this, sometimes i don't. it has always been a simple assesment of whether i believe i will be out of the way. and i did believe this. monitoring channel 13 for security calls is also something that i usually do at night. this night i did not. the engine was started and idling by in case i needed it. in regards to avoiding a collision, given the speed differentials of the vessels, i don't believe the engine would have made any difference in this situation. in regards to the regs: it would have converted me to a vessel under power and i think (?) changed my status to some extent in relation to the 2 other vessels. not that my decision was based on that or that it really does not matter once fiberglass contacts steel. the point being i was making good speed in good wind. given that the tug/barge changed course twice: was he obligated to give way? or is this a "fluid" problem that needs to be constantly reassessed?--which means always stay out of his way no matter what courses he chooses? felt like a cat and mouse sort of thing. as a technical point: their seems to be a difference between an inablitiy to maneuver because of draft, in a particular direction--versus the general maneuverablity of a vessel because of length/speed/wieght. i am not sure these 2 issues are connected by the regs. as i understand it, constrained by draft is designed to prevent a vessel from running aground. in this regard there was no danger to the freighter who had plenty of room to the south, which was his general route. the tub could not turn towards the north to cross in front of me because of draft and speed issues, and he could not turn south because of the freighter, which left him pointed at me. my guess is not i or the freighter anticipated a circling tub. "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... Not knowing the area, I have a couple of comments. I'm not sure you were stand on, given that if there is any doubt about draft constraint. Also, a tug and a barge have status in most cases, but again, I don't know the area. Also, why not hail them and ask their intentions? Finally, while sailing does give you stand on status in many circumstances, it also limits your ability to take evasive action. Perhaps it would have been prudent to start the engine? -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "gonefishiing" wrote in message ... out for a late night sail last week, which i do a lot of. western edge of long island sound, ny on a port tack heading southwest towards the throgs neck bridge. slack tide. particulary dark night. full main and jib set 15 knots wind keeping a vigilant eye out for ships, i spot a black form against the lights of the city in front of me and realize it is a tug and barge and i also realize (in the absence of visible nav lights) his small profile means he is headed right at me and steaming. i decide to tack the boat around 180 degrees and give him some room........assuming (correctly) his course has 2 possiblities--he is going to continue eastbound in the sound or he is going to turn north towards eastchester bay to anchor his barge (partial mistake no.1?). he turns northeast towards the barge anchorage, paralleling my course and i am east of him and the barge anchorage- out of his way. towards the east i spot another ship (freighter) steaming westbound for the gate. he is north of the lane that most of the commerical ships take for the bridge. and a quick visual calculation tells me i can cross his bow without problem and also because he needs to turn behind my stern to set his course for the bridge (and soon!) (partial mistake no.2?) they are both aware that i am here-- million candle power lights illuminating sails had a way of doing that. (my light) 1: the freighter, westbound, is not turning although i have crossed his bow--only slightly and he'll end up passing beyond me, far too close and moving fast. 2: the tug/barge decides to steer a circle around the barge anchorage and end up eastbound again --off my port beam and close enough that i can see the pilot. he has slowed down significantly at this point as i am now between both vessels. (on a starboard tack) 3: they both passed "safely" at my stern, to the south of me the freigher first, the tug next. this was really too close for comfort, and i had my hands full sailing. not to negate my responsiblity, i think constrained by draft here is a relative term, if it even applies. they each had a mile of room to the south (behind me) to manuveur and cannot understand why they would choose to approach so closely, as my actions were clear, my course was appropriate and consistent and meant to give each a wide berth and for whatever it may be worth, i think everyone took the correct actions i believe i was the stand on vessel the freighter was 2nd in pecking order the tug/barge gave way what would you have done differently? gf. |
What to do differently? Hail them on the radio - that's what its for. You
should at least have been monitoring 13 - they were probably talking about you. As for who had "right of way" (not that anyone actually has ROW), you were the "standon" vessel, but that status is overridden by your responsibility under Rule 9, Narrow Channels: "(b) A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel that can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway." The meaning of "shall not impede" is vague - technically it means you have to allow them a clear path to get around, but in the dark, and given that you can't really anticipate their needs, you should consider the other vessels effectively standon and stay well clear. The phrase "constrained by draft" does not appear in the Inland Rules and has no bearing here. And unless I missed something, why would you claim the freighter was ahead of the tow on a pecking order? They are both power vessels, meeting more of less head on. Or did they end up in a crossing situation? Probably they negociated this on VHF 13. "gonefishiing" wrote in message ... out for a late night sail last week, which i do a lot of. western edge of long island sound, ny on a port tack heading southwest towards the throgs neck bridge. slack tide. particulary dark night. full main and jib set 15 knots wind keeping a vigilant eye out for ships, i spot a black form against the lights of the city in front of me and realize it is a tug and barge and i also realize (in the absence of visible nav lights) his small profile means he is headed right at me and steaming. i decide to tack the boat around 180 degrees and give him some room........assuming (correctly) his course has 2 possiblities--he is going to continue eastbound in the sound or he is going to turn north towards eastchester bay to anchor his barge (partial mistake no.1?). he turns northeast towards the barge anchorage, paralleling my course and i am east of him and the barge anchorage- out of his way. towards the east i spot another ship (freighter) steaming westbound for the gate. he is north of the lane that most of the commerical ships take for the bridge. and a quick visual calculation tells me i can cross his bow without problem and also because he needs to turn behind my stern to set his course for the bridge (and soon!) (partial mistake no.2?) they are both aware that i am here-- million candle power lights illuminating sails had a way of doing that. (my light) 1: the freighter, westbound, is not turning although i have crossed his bow--only slightly and he'll end up passing beyond me, far too close and moving fast. 2: the tug/barge decides to steer a circle around the barge anchorage and end up eastbound again --off my port beam and close enough that i can see the pilot. he has slowed down significantly at this point as i am now between both vessels. (on a starboard tack) 3: they both passed "safely" at my stern, to the south of me the freigher first, the tug next. this was really too close for comfort, and i had my hands full sailing. not to negate my responsiblity, i think constrained by draft here is a relative term, if it even applies. they each had a mile of room to the south (behind me) to manuveur and cannot understand why they would choose to approach so closely, as my actions were clear, my course was appropriate and consistent and meant to give each a wide berth and for whatever it may be worth, i think everyone took the correct actions i believe i was the stand on vessel the freighter was 2nd in pecking order the tug/barge gave way what would you have done differently? gf. |
Good idea, in our neck of the woods we have a fair amount of large
commercial vessels, mainly freighters, they usually have the ROW, I always assume that they can't see me or aren't looking, especially at night. One definite advantage we have here is that they usually stay in their channels, so having them do something unexpected isn't an issue. I've only heard a freighter sound their horn on one occasion, a Wednesday night race(still daylight) at the time we were surprised, it wasn't as if we couldn't see him! BTW, there was a thread posted here a while back about a near miss involving a freighter and sailboat in Chesapeake Bay, the freighter did actually go aground to avoid a collision, which they are obliged to do under the COLREGS, but that isn't something I would ever depend on, regardless of the size of the vessel. Again, to some extent "stand on" and "give way" are somewhat meaningless as all vessels are charged with avoiding collisions, I would say that the only other thing you might have done is attempt to hail them on the radio and ask their intentions. John Cairns "gonefishiing" wrote in message ... agreed: for the sake of safety, i always stay away from bigger vessels and did so on this sail as well, until the tug/barge (TUB) changed course for the final time. i was certain i was ok with both vessels until the barge circled around and was pointing at me again leaving me no evasive action to take. neither vessel produced any indication of warning that i was in the way (lights / horn) agreed again: i realize i should have hailed them on the radio and asked for they're intentions long before events became close. definitely mistake no.1. Sometimes i do this, sometimes i don't. it has always been a simple assesment of whether i believe i will be out of the way. and i did believe this. monitoring channel 13 for security calls is also something that i usually do at night. this night i did not. the engine was started and idling by in case i needed it. in regards to avoiding a collision, given the speed differentials of the vessels, i don't believe the engine would have made any difference in this situation. in regards to the regs: it would have converted me to a vessel under power and i think (?) changed my status to some extent in relation to the 2 other vessels. not that my decision was based on that or that it really does not matter once fiberglass contacts steel. the point being i was making good speed in good wind. given that the tug/barge changed course twice: was he obligated to give way? or is this a "fluid" problem that needs to be constantly reassessed?--which means always stay out of his way no matter what courses he chooses? felt like a cat and mouse sort of thing. as a technical point: their seems to be a difference between an inablitiy to maneuver because of draft, in a particular direction--versus the general maneuverablity of a vessel because of length/speed/wieght. i am not sure these 2 issues are connected by the regs. as i understand it, constrained by draft is designed to prevent a vessel from running aground. in this regard there was no danger to the freighter who had plenty of room to the south, which was his general route. the tub could not turn towards the north to cross in front of me because of draft and speed issues, and he could not turn south because of the freighter, which left him pointed at me. my guess is not i or the freighter anticipated a circling tub. "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... Not knowing the area, I have a couple of comments. I'm not sure you were stand on, given that if there is any doubt about draft constraint. Also, a tug and a barge have status in most cases, but again, I don't know the area. Also, why not hail them and ask their intentions? Finally, while sailing does give you stand on status in many circumstances, it also limits your ability to take evasive action. Perhaps it would have been prudent to start the engine? -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "gonefishiing" wrote in message ... out for a late night sail last week, which i do a lot of. western edge of long island sound, ny on a port tack heading southwest towards the throgs neck bridge. slack tide. particulary dark night. full main and jib set 15 knots wind keeping a vigilant eye out for ships, i spot a black form against the lights of the city in front of me and realize it is a tug and barge and i also realize (in the absence of visible nav lights) his small profile means he is headed right at me and steaming. i decide to tack the boat around 180 degrees and give him some room........assuming (correctly) his course has 2 possiblities--he is going to continue eastbound in the sound or he is going to turn north towards eastchester bay to anchor his barge (partial mistake no.1?). he turns northeast towards the barge anchorage, paralleling my course and i am east of him and the barge anchorage- out of his way. towards the east i spot another ship (freighter) steaming westbound for the gate. he is north of the lane that most of the commerical ships take for the bridge. and a quick visual calculation tells me i can cross his bow without problem and also because he needs to turn behind my stern to set his course for the bridge (and soon!) (partial mistake no.2?) they are both aware that i am here-- million candle power lights illuminating sails had a way of doing that. (my light) 1: the freighter, westbound, is not turning although i have crossed his bow--only slightly and he'll end up passing beyond me, far too close and moving fast. 2: the tug/barge decides to steer a circle around the barge anchorage and end up eastbound again --off my port beam and close enough that i can see the pilot. he has slowed down significantly at this point as i am now between both vessels. (on a starboard tack) 3: they both passed "safely" at my stern, to the south of me the freigher first, the tug next. this was really too close for comfort, and i had my hands full sailing. not to negate my responsiblity, i think constrained by draft here is a relative term, if it even applies. they each had a mile of room to the south (behind me) to manuveur and cannot understand why they would choose to approach so closely, as my actions were clear, my course was appropriate and consistent and meant to give each a wide berth and for whatever it may be worth, i think everyone took the correct actions i believe i was the stand on vessel the freighter was 2nd in pecking order the tug/barge gave way what would you have done differently? gf. |
"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
... Not knowing the area, I have a couple of comments. I'm not sure you were stand on, given that if there is any doubt about draft constraint. Also, a tug and a barge have status in most cases, but again, I don't know the area. The tow has no special status unless it declares itself a RAM (Restricted Ability to Maneuver) and displays the appropraite lights in addition to the tow lights.. |
On Sun, 15 Aug 2004, "gonefishiing" wrote:
[i] [In an near commercial shipping lanes on the L.I.S.] out for a late night sail last week, which i do a lot . . . . i spot a . . . tug and barge and . . . realize . . . he is headed right at me and steaming. * * * [Soon thereafter] i spot another ship (freighter) steaming [more or less parallel to me] and a quick visual calculation tells me i can cross his bow without problem and also because [if he is going where i speculate] he needs to turn behind my stern . . . . [ SNIPPED: ruminations about having "assum[ed]" might do depending on "possibilities" about the poster further speculates the freighter would "need" to do, if his guess about the possibilites he made was correct. ] [As it turned out] they passed "safely" at my stern, . . . . [but] really too close for comfort . . . . not to negate my responsiblity, i think constrained by draft here is a relative term, if it even applies. they each had a mile of room . . . behind me . . . to manuveur and cannot understand why they would choose to approach so closely, as my actions were clear, my course was appropriate and consistent and meant to give each a wide berth . . . . and for whatever it may be worth, i think everyone took the correct actions i believe i was the stand on vessel the freighter was 2nd in pecking order the tug/barge gave way what would you have done differently? This is essentially the classic "no brainer" with the better and anyway more important question is what ought you have done differently: Especially for folks who sail "a lot" (whether day or night) in the area to which you refer -- unless, based on very careful and very well experienced supported observation, it is _very_ clear that the smaller sailboat will certainly be able to avoid collision assuming _not_ what you did but, instead, that the tug/barge and freigher are and will turn onto and (despite shinging a bright flash-light on one's sails) will remain on a direct/collision course -- your attempt to "assume" what the other vessels will do based on what you believed to be "possibilities" in light of what you legalistically argue to be a "relative" rule is, to put it politely, nuts. To the contrary, _regardless_ what the printed rule may appear to say, it is plain from the above that, though you escaped disaster, you certainly do here attempt to "negate [your] responsibility" because there is a much simpler "rule" (albeit of real-life - and, sometimes, of [otherwise avoidable] death, even if not clearly published by the USCG or in "Sailing for Idiots" and it is simply this: Except for the above-noted qualificationk sailboats ought take action (and also: responsiblity) to stay out of the way of on-coming tugs/barges and freighters, especially when (as you say occurred for you) they appear to be within two miles away, EVEN IF they do not clearly appear to be on-coming. I.e., PRESUME that they are out to kill you, then take the appropriate evasive action. Its pretty simple. Andeven (and, perhaps especially) on "dark nights" pretty clear. And simple. Granted, in the L.I.S. area to which you refer, some sailers behave otherwise and, apparently especially on Wed. or Thurs. racing nights, occasonally challenges the tug/barge or freigher (with resulting whistle-blowing and frustrated commercial captains screaming on the VHF). But for those who want to continue to sail "a lot" at night (and, for that matter, during the day) in that area, the better "assumption" for you would have been your answer to the question: If both other boats do not see me (even if I believe they do see me) and if both also alter their course so that they will be headed directly for me if I don't alter my course, where in light of what I do see ought I go to avoid a collision? |
That's not true on the SF bay. Tugs with barges have stand on.
-- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Jeff Morris" wrote in message ... "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... Not knowing the area, I have a couple of comments. I'm not sure you were stand on, given that if there is any doubt about draft constraint. Also, a tug and a barge have status in most cases, but again, I don't know the area. The tow has no special status unless it declares itself a RAM (Restricted Ability to Maneuver) and displays the appropraite lights in addition to the tow lights.. |
Its pretty clear the jax has never sailed in these waters ...
"JAXAshby" wrote in message ... gf, that is a crock of squat. a.) no barge coming out from under the Throgs Neck is heading *east* at least until it nears City Island a couple miles to the northeast, and The Throgs Neck Bridge is almost exactly North/South, and the channel is almost exactly East/West. The tow may have begun to turn North, but is essentially heading East as it passes under the bridge. And regardless of the exact heading, vessels in the area would be described as "eastbound" or "westbound." b.) there is no ships traffic on western LIS except for veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery occasionally, and I've been through there a half dozen times in the last few years and have encountered traffic each time. I was at King's Point last weekend and saw commercial traffic go by. c.) commercial traffic on that part of the Sound is limited to about 7 knots. *if* you missed seeing an approaching barge you were asleep for quite some time. Unless, of course, it was hidden by Throgs Neck. Of course, at 7 knots a mile goes by in less than 9 minutes. don't give up your day job. fiction writing is not likely to make you any money for the foreable future. Hey jaxie, are you still claiming you sail nearby? Very doubtful, jaxie. From: "gonefishiing" Date: 8/15/2004 4:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: out for a late night sail last week, which i do a lot of. western edge of long island sound, ny on a port tack heading southwest towards the throgs neck bridge. slack tide. particulary dark night. full main and jib set 15 knots wind keeping a vigilant eye out for ships, i spot a black form against the lights of the city in front of me and realize it is a tug and barge and i also realize (in the absence of visible nav lights) his small profile means he is headed right at me and steaming. i decide to tack the boat around 180 degrees and give him some room........assuming (correctly) his course has 2 possiblities--he is going to continue eastbound in the sound or he is going to turn north towards eastchester bay to anchor his barge (partial mistake no.1?). he turns northeast towards the barge anchorage, paralleling my course and i am east of him and the barge anchorage- out of his way. towards the east i spot another ship (freighter) steaming westbound for the gate. he is north of the lane that most of the commerical ships take for the bridge. and a quick visual calculation tells me i can cross his bow without problem and also because he needs to turn behind my stern to set his course for the bridge (and soon!) (partial mistake no.2?) they are both aware that i am here-- million candle power lights illuminating sails had a way of doing that. (my light) 1: the freighter, westbound, is not turning although i have crossed his bow--only slightly and he'll end up passing beyond me, far too close and moving fast. 2: the tug/barge decides to steer a circle around the barge anchorage and end up eastbound again --off my port beam and close enough that i can see the pilot. he has slowed down significantly at this point as i am now between both vessels. (on a starboard tack) 3: they both passed "safely" at my stern, to the south of me the freigher first, the tug next. this was really too close for comfort, and i had my hands full sailing. not to negate my responsiblity, i think constrained by draft here is a relative term, if it even applies. they each had a mile of room to the south (behind me) to manuveur and cannot understand why they would choose to approach so closely, as my actions were clear, my course was appropriate and consistent and meant to give each a wide berth and for whatever it may be worth, i think everyone took the correct actions i believe i was the stand on vessel the freighter was 2nd in pecking order the tug/barge gave way what would you have done differently? gf. |
gf, knock it off. you ain't NEVER gonna make it as a fiction writer.
From: "gonefishiing" Date: 8/15/2004 6:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: agreed: for the sake of safety, i always stay away from bigger vessels and did so on this sail as well, until the tug/barge (TUB) changed course for the final time. i was certain i was ok with both vessels until the barge circled around and was pointing at me again leaving me no evasive action to take. neither vessel produced any indication of warning that i was in the way (lights / horn) agreed again: i realize i should have hailed them on the radio and asked for they're intentions long before events became close. definitely mistake no.1. Sometimes i do this, sometimes i don't. it has always been a simple assesment of whether i believe i will be out of the way. and i did believe this. monitoring channel 13 for security calls is also something that i usually do at night. this night i did not. the engine was started and idling by in case i needed it. in regards to avoiding a collision, given the speed differentials of the vessels, i don't believe the engine would have made any difference in this situation. in regards to the regs: it would have converted me to a vessel under power and i think (?) changed my status to some extent in relation to the 2 other vessels. not that my decision was based on that or that it really does not matter once fiberglass contacts steel. the point being i was making good speed in good wind. given that the tug/barge changed course twice: was he obligated to give way? or is this a "fluid" problem that needs to be constantly reassessed?--which means always stay out of his way no matter what courses he chooses? felt like a cat and mouse sort of thing. as a technical point: their seems to be a difference between an inablitiy to maneuver because of draft, in a particular direction--versus the general maneuverablity of a vessel because of length/speed/wieght. i am not sure these 2 issues are connected by the regs. as i understand it, constrained by draft is designed to prevent a vessel from running aground. in this regard there was no danger to the freighter who had plenty of room to the south, which was his general route. the tub could not turn towards the north to cross in front of me because of draft and speed issues, and he could not turn south because of the freighter, which left him pointed at me. my guess is not i or the freighter anticipated a circling tub. "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... Not knowing the area, I have a couple of comments. I'm not sure you were stand on, given that if there is any doubt about draft constraint. Also, a tug and a barge have status in most cases, but again, I don't know the area. Also, why not hail them and ask their intentions? Finally, while sailing does give you stand on status in many circumstances, it also limits your ability to take evasive action. Perhaps it would have been prudent to start the engine? -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "gonefishiing" wrote in message ... out for a late night sail last week, which i do a lot of. western edge of long island sound, ny on a port tack heading southwest towards the throgs neck bridge. slack tide. particulary dark night. full main and jib set 15 knots wind keeping a vigilant eye out for ships, i spot a black form against the lights of the city in front of me and realize it is a tug and barge and i also realize (in the absence of visible nav lights) his small profile means he is headed right at me and steaming. i decide to tack the boat around 180 degrees and give him some room........assuming (correctly) his course has 2 possiblities--he is going to continue eastbound in the sound or he is going to turn north towards eastchester bay to anchor his barge (partial mistake no.1?). he turns northeast towards the barge anchorage, paralleling my course and i am east of him and the barge anchorage- out of his way. towards the east i spot another ship (freighter) steaming westbound for the gate. he is north of the lane that most of the commerical ships take for the bridge. and a quick visual calculation tells me i can cross his bow without problem and also because he needs to turn behind my stern to set his course for the bridge (and soon!) (partial mistake no.2?) they are both aware that i am here-- million candle power lights illuminating sails had a way of doing that. (my light) 1: the freighter, westbound, is not turning although i have crossed his bow--only slightly and he'll end up passing beyond me, far too close and moving fast. 2: the tug/barge decides to steer a circle around the barge anchorage and end up eastbound again --off my port beam and close enough that i can see the pilot. he has slowed down significantly at this point as i am now between both vessels. (on a starboard tack) 3: they both passed "safely" at my stern, to the south of me the freigher first, the tug next. this was really too close for comfort, and i had my hands full sailing. not to negate my responsiblity, i think constrained by draft here is a relative term, if it even applies. they each had a mile of room to the south (behind me) to manuveur and cannot understand why they would choose to approach so closely, as my actions were clear, my course was appropriate and consistent and meant to give each a wide berth and for whatever it may be worth, i think everyone took the correct actions i believe i was the stand on vessel the freighter was 2nd in pecking order the tug/barge gave way what would you have done differently? gf. |
in our neck of the woods we have a fair amount of large
commercial vessels, mainly freighters, but your neck of the woods isn't western LIS. "large commercial vessels" and freighters are uncommon, moving slowing when they are there, are well lit, are not the least bit shy in sounding their horns, travel in highly predictable paths, freighter NEVER go into the area where the two barge buoys are, etc. etc. etc. gf was fictionalizing. |
I don't suppose you have a reference for that. I know SF has a large restricted
area, but I've never seen anything that gives tows status above freighters except the RAM rule. "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... That's not true on the SF bay. Tugs with barges have stand on. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Jeff Morris" wrote in message ... "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... Not knowing the area, I have a couple of comments. I'm not sure you were stand on, given that if there is any doubt about draft constraint. Also, a tug and a barge have status in most cases, but again, I don't know the area. The tow has no special status unless it declares itself a RAM (Restricted Ability to Maneuver) and displays the appropraite lights in addition to the tow lights.. |
The tow has no special status unless it declares itself a RAM (Restricted
Ability to Maneuver) and displays the appropraite lights in addition to the tow lights.. tugs with tow on LIS display the correct running lights at night. There are enough CG boats around to ensure that. |
That's not true on the SF bay. Tugs with barges have stand on.
they do on LIS as well. |
jeffies, it is my sailing waters for the last 12 years.
Its pretty clear the jax has never sailed in these waters ... "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... gf, that is a crock of squat. a.) no barge coming out from under the Throgs Neck is heading *east* at least until it nears City Island a couple miles to the northeast, and The Throgs Neck Bridge is almost exactly North/South, and the channel is almost exactly East/West. The tow may have begun to turn North, but is essentially heading East as it passes under the bridge. And regardless of the exact heading, vessels in the area would be described as "eastbound" or "westbound." b.) there is no ships traffic on western LIS except for veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery occasionally, and I've been through there a half dozen times in the last few years and have encountered traffic each time. I was at King's Point last weekend and saw commercial traffic go by. c.) commercial traffic on that part of the Sound is limited to about 7 knots. *if* you missed seeing an approaching barge you were asleep for quite some time. Unless, of course, it was hidden by Throgs Neck. Of course, at 7 knots a mile goes by in less than 9 minutes. don't give up your day job. fiction writing is not likely to make you any money for the foreable future. Hey jaxie, are you still claiming you sail nearby? Very doubtful, jaxie. From: "gonefishiing" Date: 8/15/2004 4:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: out for a late night sail last week, which i do a lot of. western edge of long island sound, ny on a port tack heading southwest towards the throgs neck bridge. slack tide. particulary dark night. full main and jib set 15 knots wind keeping a vigilant eye out for ships, i spot a black form against the lights of the city in front of me and realize it is a tug and barge and i also realize (in the absence of visible nav lights) his small profile means he is headed right at me and steaming. i decide to tack the boat around 180 degrees and give him some room........assuming (correctly) his course has 2 possiblities--he is going to continue eastbound in the sound or he is going to turn north towards eastchester bay to anchor his barge (partial mistake no.1?). he turns northeast towards the barge anchorage, paralleling my course and i am east of him and the barge anchorage- out of his way. towards the east i spot another ship (freighter) steaming westbound for the gate. he is north of the lane that most of the commerical ships take for the bridge. and a quick visual calculation tells me i can cross his bow without problem and also because he needs to turn behind my stern to set his course for the bridge (and soon!) (partial mistake no.2?) they are both aware that i am here-- million candle power lights illuminating sails had a way of doing that. (my light) 1: the freighter, westbound, is not turning although i have crossed his bow--only slightly and he'll end up passing beyond me, far too close and moving fast. 2: the tug/barge decides to steer a circle around the barge anchorage and end up eastbound again --off my port beam and close enough that i can see the pilot. he has slowed down significantly at this point as i am now between both vessels. (on a starboard tack) 3: they both passed "safely" at my stern, to the south of me the freigher first, the tug next. this was really too close for comfort, and i had my hands full sailing. not to negate my responsiblity, i think constrained by draft here is a relative term, if it even applies. they each had a mile of room to the south (behind me) to manuveur and cannot understand why they would choose to approach so closely, as my actions were clear, my course was appropriate and consistent and meant to give each a wide berth and for whatever it may be worth, i think everyone took the correct actions i believe i was the stand on vessel the freighter was 2nd in pecking order the tug/barge gave way what would you have done differently? gf. |
"JAXAshby" wrote in message
... jeffies, it is my sailing waters for the last 12 years. You claim that but then prove yourself a liar by not knowing which way the TN bridge goes. Admit it, jaxie, you've never actually been on a boat, have you? |
"JAXAshby" wrote in message
... "(b) A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel that can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway." there is NO narrow channel anywhere between eastern LIS and the Throgs Neck Bridge at the western end. There IS a marked channel (wide) in several places, and there IS a marker buoy in deep water just about the TN Bridge, but that is it. Its a good thing you don't actually sail, jaxie, you'd be a hazard to everyone! The approach to the TN Bridge is most certainly a "Narrow Channel" for some vessels. Its a bit over 600 yards, which means that the "lane" in each direction is about 200 yards. Are you claiming that all vessels that pass through there can easily maneuver around any small boat traffic? Can you tell which vessels can't in the dark? Forcing a tow to make a serious alteration of speed or course would certainly be considered "impeding" if anything went wrong. |
cannot understand why they would choose to approach so closely.. Same reason why a dog licks its' butt...because they can.... -- katysails s/v Chanteuse Kirie Elite 32 http://katysails.tripod.com "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.726 / Virus Database: 481 - Release Date: 7/22/2004 |
hey i thought the dog thing was a different thread?
speaking of dogs: my daughter lives with me 1/2 time and is hell bent on getting a dog (13 yo) found/ keep finding post-its with words related to dogs on them in the cupboards, on the windows, in the refrig. etc. you seem to have some knowledge of dogs so here goes: any idea what kind of dog i can get that can feed itself, go for a walk, and be left in charge of the office for say a week at a time? one that is protective of place and can do something about it would help keep in mind, it needs to be an urban kind of dog (whatever that means) space ain't an issue--i live/work in a loft--figure it can get its exercise by running the length of this place if it likes the water and goes sailing all the better. how about a dog rental program for a month at a time? any ideas? gf. "katysails" wrote in message ... cannot understand why they would choose to approach so closely.. Same reason why a dog licks its' butt...because they can.... -- katysails s/v Chanteuse Kirie Elite 32 http://katysails.tripod.com "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.726 / Virus Database: 481 - Release Date: 7/22/2004 |
Don't get a dog if you can't take proper care of it.
Stop spoiling your kid. Running around an apartment is not proper exersize. SV "gonefishiing" wrote in message ... hey i thought the dog thing was a different thread? speaking of dogs: my daughter lives with me 1/2 time and is hell bent on getting a dog (13 yo) found/ keep finding post-its with words related to dogs on them in the cupboards, on the windows, in the refrig. etc. you seem to have some knowledge of dogs so here goes: any idea what kind of dog i can get that can feed itself, go for a walk, and be left in charge of the office for say a week at a time? one that is protective of place and can do something about it would help keep in mind, it needs to be an urban kind of dog (whatever that means) space ain't an issue--i live/work in a loft--figure it can get its exercise by running the length of this place if it likes the water and goes sailing all the better. how about a dog rental program for a month at a time? any ideas? gf. "katysails" wrote in message ... cannot understand why they would choose to approach so closely.. Same reason why a dog licks its' butt...because they can.... -- katysails s/v Chanteuse Kirie Elite 32 http://katysails.tripod.com "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.726 / Virus Database: 481 - Release Date: 7/22/2004 |
Rule of Tonnage.
SV rambled on incessantly... Granted, in the L.I.S. area to which you refer, some sailers behave otherwise and, apparently especially on Wed. or Thurs. racing nights, occasonally challenges the tug/barge or freigher (with resulting whistle-blowing and frustrated commercial captains screaming on the VHF). But for those who want to continue to sail "a lot" at night (and, for that matter, during the day) in that area, the better "assumption" for you would have been your answer to the question: If both other boats do not see me (even if I believe they do see me) and if both also alter their course so that they will be headed directly for me if I don't alter my course, where in light of what I do see ought I go to avoid a collision? |
"gonefishiing" wrote in message
... hey i thought the dog thing was a different thread? speaking of dogs: my daughter lives with me 1/2 time and is hell bent on getting a dog (13 yo) found/ keep finding post-its with words related to dogs on them in the cupboards, on the windows, in the refrig. etc. you seem to have some knowledge of dogs so here goes: any idea what kind of dog i can get that can feed itself, go for a walk, and be left in charge of the office for say a week at a time? A cat. A week is a long time - we leave our cats for 3-4 days. Longer than that we have a friend or neighbor drop by just to make sure they didn't lock themselves in a closet. If we go sailing for more than about 4 days they come with us. The dog, however, can't be left unattended for more than 8 hours, and even that's a stretch. one that is protective of place and can do something about it would help keep in mind, it needs to be an urban kind of dog (whatever that means) space ain't an issue--i live/work in a loft--figure it can get its exercise by running the length of this place if it likes the water and goes sailing all the better. how about a dog rental program for a month at a time? Find a neighbor with a dog that travels and needs a dog-sitter. |
Oh, sorry, not above freighters... I was talking above just about
everything else. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Jeff Morris" wrote in message ... I don't suppose you have a reference for that. I know SF has a large restricted area, but I've never seen anything that gives tows status above freighters except the RAM rule. "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... That's not true on the SF bay. Tugs with barges have stand on. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Jeff Morris" wrote in message ... "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... Not knowing the area, I have a couple of comments. I'm not sure you were stand on, given that if there is any doubt about draft constraint. Also, a tug and a barge have status in most cases, but again, I don't know the area. The tow has no special status unless it declares itself a RAM (Restricted Ability to Maneuver) and displays the appropraite lights in addition to the tow lights.. |
Hey, umm... if the engine was started then you're a motorboat.
You have no status at that point, certainly not above a tug/tow. I hope you were running your steaming light. Otherwise, you could be cited. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "gonefishiing" wrote in message ... agreed: for the sake of safety, i always stay away from bigger vessels and did so on this sail as well, until the tug/barge (TUB) changed course for the final time. i was certain i was ok with both vessels until the barge circled around and was pointing at me again leaving me no evasive action to take. neither vessel produced any indication of warning that i was in the way (lights / horn) agreed again: i realize i should have hailed them on the radio and asked for they're intentions long before events became close. definitely mistake no.1. Sometimes i do this, sometimes i don't. it has always been a simple assesment of whether i believe i will be out of the way. and i did believe this. monitoring channel 13 for security calls is also something that i usually do at night. this night i did not. the engine was started and idling by in case i needed it. in regards to avoiding a collision, given the speed differentials of the vessels, i don't believe the engine would have made any difference in this situation. in regards to the regs: it would have converted me to a vessel under power and i think (?) changed my status to some extent in relation to the 2 other vessels. not that my decision was based on that or that it really does not matter once fiberglass contacts steel. the point being i was making good speed in good wind. given that the tug/barge changed course twice: was he obligated to give way? or is this a "fluid" problem that needs to be constantly reassessed?--which means always stay out of his way no matter what courses he chooses? felt like a cat and mouse sort of thing. as a technical point: their seems to be a difference between an inablitiy to maneuver because of draft, in a particular direction--versus the general maneuverablity of a vessel because of length/speed/wieght. i am not sure these 2 issues are connected by the regs. as i understand it, constrained by draft is designed to prevent a vessel from running aground. in this regard there was no danger to the freighter who had plenty of room to the south, which was his general route. the tub could not turn towards the north to cross in front of me because of draft and speed issues, and he could not turn south because of the freighter, which left him pointed at me. my guess is not i or the freighter anticipated a circling tub. "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... Not knowing the area, I have a couple of comments. I'm not sure you were stand on, given that if there is any doubt about draft constraint. Also, a tug and a barge have status in most cases, but again, I don't know the area. Also, why not hail them and ask their intentions? Finally, while sailing does give you stand on status in many circumstances, it also limits your ability to take evasive action. Perhaps it would have been prudent to start the engine? -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "gonefishiing" wrote in message ... out for a late night sail last week, which i do a lot of. western edge of long island sound, ny on a port tack heading southwest towards the throgs neck bridge. slack tide. particulary dark night. full main and jib set 15 knots wind keeping a vigilant eye out for ships, i spot a black form against the lights of the city in front of me and realize it is a tug and barge and i also realize (in the absence of visible nav lights) his small profile means he is headed right at me and steaming. i decide to tack the boat around 180 degrees and give him some room........assuming (correctly) his course has 2 possiblities--he is going to continue eastbound in the sound or he is going to turn north towards eastchester bay to anchor his barge (partial mistake no.1?). he turns northeast towards the barge anchorage, paralleling my course and i am east of him and the barge anchorage- out of his way. towards the east i spot another ship (freighter) steaming westbound for the gate. he is north of the lane that most of the commerical ships take for the bridge. and a quick visual calculation tells me i can cross his bow without problem and also because he needs to turn behind my stern to set his course for the bridge (and soon!) (partial mistake no.2?) they are both aware that i am here-- million candle power lights illuminating sails had a way of doing that. (my light) 1: the freighter, westbound, is not turning although i have crossed his bow--only slightly and he'll end up passing beyond me, far too close and moving fast. 2: the tug/barge decides to steer a circle around the barge anchorage and end up eastbound again --off my port beam and close enough that i can see the pilot. he has slowed down significantly at this point as i am now between both vessels. (on a starboard tack) 3: they both passed "safely" at my stern, to the south of me the freigher first, the tug next. this was really too close for comfort, and i had my hands full sailing. not to negate my responsiblity, i think constrained by draft here is a relative term, if it even applies. they each had a mile of room to the south (behind me) to manuveur and cannot understand why they would choose to approach so closely, as my actions were clear, my course was appropriate and consistent and meant to give each a wide berth and for whatever it may be worth, i think everyone took the correct actions i believe i was the stand on vessel the freighter was 2nd in pecking order the tug/barge gave way what would you have done differently? gf. |
"gonefishiing" wrote in message
... hey i thought the dog thing was a different thread? speaking of dogs: my daughter lives with me 1/2 time Ummm... and is hell bent on getting a dog (13 yo) OIC |
have had dogs before so i understand what it takes to be responsible
nothing to do with "spoiling my kid"--have not decided one way or the other it's up for consideration yeah i know dogs need fresh air, grass, and trees how about bus exhaust, concrete, and fire hydrants gf. "Scott Vernon" wrote in message ... Don't get a dog if you can't take proper care of it. Stop spoiling your kid. Running around an apartment is not proper exersize. SV "gonefishiing" wrote in message ... hey i thought the dog thing was a different thread? speaking of dogs: my daughter lives with me 1/2 time and is hell bent on getting a dog (13 yo) found/ keep finding post-its with words related to dogs on them in the cupboards, on the windows, in the refrig. etc. you seem to have some knowledge of dogs so here goes: any idea what kind of dog i can get that can feed itself, go for a walk, and be left in charge of the office for say a week at a time? one that is protective of place and can do something about it would help keep in mind, it needs to be an urban kind of dog (whatever that means) space ain't an issue--i live/work in a loft--figure it can get its exercise by running the length of this place if it likes the water and goes sailing all the better. how about a dog rental program for a month at a time? any ideas? gf. "katysails" wrote in message ... cannot understand why they would choose to approach so closely.. Same reason why a dog licks its' butt...because they can.... -- katysails s/v Chanteuse Kirie Elite 32 http://katysails.tripod.com "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.726 / Virus Database: 481 - Release Date: 7/22/2004 |
Nope. The engine has to be in gear; what if it was just be run to charge
batteries, or if it was started but not warmed up? Of course, if you had an engine but didn't use it to avoid a collision, you'd have 'splaing to do. And if you were powering you can't slip it into neutral and suddenly claim rights as a sailboat. This is one of those grey areas where you'll never get an answer from the CG. "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... Hey, umm... if the engine was started then you're a motorboat. You have no status at that point, certainly not above a tug/tow. I hope you were running your steaming light. Otherwise, you could be cited. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "gonefishiing" wrote in message ... agreed: for the sake of safety, i always stay away from bigger vessels and did so on this sail as well, until the tug/barge (TUB) changed course for the final time. i was certain i was ok with both vessels until the barge circled around and was pointing at me again leaving me no evasive action to take. neither vessel produced any indication of warning that i was in the way (lights / horn) agreed again: i realize i should have hailed them on the radio and asked for they're intentions long before events became close. definitely mistake no.1. Sometimes i do this, sometimes i don't. it has always been a simple assesment of whether i believe i will be out of the way. and i did believe this. monitoring channel 13 for security calls is also something that i usually do at night. this night i did not. the engine was started and idling by in case i needed it. in regards to avoiding a collision, given the speed differentials of the vessels, i don't believe the engine would have made any difference in this situation. in regards to the regs: it would have converted me to a vessel under power and i think (?) changed my status to some extent in relation to the 2 other vessels. not that my decision was based on that or that it really does not matter once fiberglass contacts steel. the point being i was making good speed in good wind. given that the tug/barge changed course twice: was he obligated to give way? or is this a "fluid" problem that needs to be constantly reassessed?--which means always stay out of his way no matter what courses he chooses? felt like a cat and mouse sort of thing. as a technical point: their seems to be a difference between an inablitiy to maneuver because of draft, in a particular direction--versus the general maneuverablity of a vessel because of length/speed/wieght. i am not sure these 2 issues are connected by the regs. as i understand it, constrained by draft is designed to prevent a vessel from running aground. in this regard there was no danger to the freighter who had plenty of room to the south, which was his general route. the tub could not turn towards the north to cross in front of me because of draft and speed issues, and he could not turn south because of the freighter, which left him pointed at me. my guess is not i or the freighter anticipated a circling tub. "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... Not knowing the area, I have a couple of comments. I'm not sure you were stand on, given that if there is any doubt about draft constraint. Also, a tug and a barge have status in most cases, but again, I don't know the area. Also, why not hail them and ask their intentions? Finally, while sailing does give you stand on status in many circumstances, it also limits your ability to take evasive action. Perhaps it would have been prudent to start the engine? -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "gonefishiing" wrote in message ... out for a late night sail last week, which i do a lot of. western edge of long island sound, ny on a port tack heading southwest towards the throgs neck bridge. slack tide. particulary dark night. full main and jib set 15 knots wind keeping a vigilant eye out for ships, i spot a black form against the lights of the city in front of me and realize it is a tug and barge and i also realize (in the absence of visible nav lights) his small profile means he is headed right at me and steaming. i decide to tack the boat around 180 degrees and give him some room........assuming (correctly) his course has 2 possiblities--he is going to continue eastbound in the sound or he is going to turn north towards eastchester bay to anchor his barge (partial mistake no.1?). he turns northeast towards the barge anchorage, paralleling my course and i am east of him and the barge anchorage- out of his way. towards the east i spot another ship (freighter) steaming westbound for the gate. he is north of the lane that most of the commerical ships take for the bridge. and a quick visual calculation tells me i can cross his bow without problem and also because he needs to turn behind my stern to set his course for the bridge (and soon!) (partial mistake no.2?) they are both aware that i am here-- million candle power lights illuminating sails had a way of doing that. (my light) 1: the freighter, westbound, is not turning although i have crossed his bow--only slightly and he'll end up passing beyond me, far too close and moving fast. 2: the tug/barge decides to steer a circle around the barge anchorage and end up eastbound again --off my port beam and close enough that i can see the pilot. he has slowed down significantly at this point as i am now between both vessels. (on a starboard tack) 3: they both passed "safely" at my stern, to the south of me the freigher first, the tug next. this was really too close for comfort, and i had my hands full sailing. not to negate my responsiblity, i think constrained by draft here is a relative term, if it even applies. they each had a mile of room to the south (behind me) to manuveur and cannot understand why they would choose to approach so closely, as my actions were clear, my course was appropriate and consistent and meant to give each a wide berth and for whatever it may be worth, i think everyone took the correct actions i believe i was the stand on vessel the freighter was 2nd in pecking order the tug/barge gave way what would you have done differently? gf. |
ganz, the whole posting was bogus. a piece of fiction.
From: "Jonathan Ganz" Date: 8/15/2004 9:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: Hey, umm... if the engine was started then you're a motorboat. You have no status at that point, certainly not above a tug/tow. I hope you were running your steaming light. Otherwise, you could be cited. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "gonefishiing" wrote in message ... agreed: for the sake of safety, i always stay away from bigger vessels and did so on this sail as well, until the tug/barge (TUB) changed course for the final time. i was certain i was ok with both vessels until the barge circled around and was pointing at me again leaving me no evasive action to take. neither vessel produced any indication of warning that i was in the way (lights / horn) agreed again: i realize i should have hailed them on the radio and asked for they're intentions long before events became close. definitely mistake no.1. Sometimes i do this, sometimes i don't. it has always been a simple assesment of whether i believe i will be out of the way. and i did believe this. monitoring channel 13 for security calls is also something that i usually do at night. this night i did not. the engine was started and idling by in case i needed it. in regards to avoiding a collision, given the speed differentials of the vessels, i don't believe the engine would have made any difference in this situation. in regards to the regs: it would have converted me to a vessel under power and i think (?) changed my status to some extent in relation to the 2 other vessels. not that my decision was based on that or that it really does not matter once fiberglass contacts steel. the point being i was making good speed in good wind. given that the tug/barge changed course twice: was he obligated to give way? or is this a "fluid" problem that needs to be constantly reassessed?--which means always stay out of his way no matter what courses he chooses? felt like a cat and mouse sort of thing. as a technical point: their seems to be a difference between an inablitiy to maneuver because of draft, in a particular direction--versus the general maneuverablity of a vessel because of length/speed/wieght. i am not sure these 2 issues are connected by the regs. as i understand it, constrained by draft is designed to prevent a vessel from running aground. in this regard there was no danger to the freighter who had plenty of room to the south, which was his general route. the tub could not turn towards the north to cross in front of me because of draft and speed issues, and he could not turn south because of the freighter, which left him pointed at me. my guess is not i or the freighter anticipated a circling tub. "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... Not knowing the area, I have a couple of comments. I'm not sure you were stand on, given that if there is any doubt about draft constraint. Also, a tug and a barge have status in most cases, but again, I don't know the area. Also, why not hail them and ask their intentions? Finally, while sailing does give you stand on status in many circumstances, it also limits your ability to take evasive action. Perhaps it would have been prudent to start the engine? -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "gonefishiing" wrote in message ... out for a late night sail last week, which i do a lot of. western edge of long island sound, ny on a port tack heading southwest towards the throgs neck bridge. slack tide. particulary dark night. full main and jib set 15 knots wind keeping a vigilant eye out for ships, i spot a black form against the lights of the city in front of me and realize it is a tug and barge and i also realize (in the absence of visible nav lights) his small profile means he is headed right at me and steaming. i decide to tack the boat around 180 degrees and give him some room........assuming (correctly) his course has 2 possiblities--he is going to continue eastbound in the sound or he is going to turn north towards eastchester bay to anchor his barge (partial mistake no.1?). he turns northeast towards the barge anchorage, paralleling my course and i am east of him and the barge anchorage- out of his way. towards the east i spot another ship (freighter) steaming westbound for the gate. he is north of the lane that most of the commerical ships take for the bridge. and a quick visual calculation tells me i can cross his bow without problem and also because he needs to turn behind my stern to set his course for the bridge (and soon!) (partial mistake no.2?) they are both aware that i am here-- million candle power lights illuminating sails had a way of doing that. (my light) 1: the freighter, westbound, is not turning although i have crossed his bow--only slightly and he'll end up passing beyond me, far too close and moving |
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cannot understand why they would choose to
approach so closely.. Same reason why a dog licks its' butt...because they can.... -- katysails KATY!!!!!!!!??? we don't understand?? are you getting a little unruly tonite????????? poor hubby. feeling ravished tonite. Will he respect himself in the morning??????? |
Running around an apartment is not proper exersize.
SV Scotty, STOP THAT. gf will feel out of sorts. |
the engine was idle and not in gear.
no steaming light required. gf. "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... Hey, umm... if the engine was started then you're a motorboat. You have no status at that point, certainly not above a tug/tow. I hope you were running your steaming light. Otherwise, you could be cited. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "gonefishiing" wrote in message ... agreed: for the sake of safety, i always stay away from bigger vessels and did so on this sail as well, until the tug/barge (TUB) changed course for the final time. i was certain i was ok with both vessels until the barge circled around and was pointing at me again leaving me no evasive action to take. neither vessel produced any indication of warning that i was in the way (lights / horn) agreed again: i realize i should have hailed them on the radio and asked for they're intentions long before events became close. definitely mistake no.1. Sometimes i do this, sometimes i don't. it has always been a simple assesment of whether i believe i will be out of the way. and i did believe this. monitoring channel 13 for security calls is also something that i usually do at night. this night i did not. the engine was started and idling by in case i needed it. in regards to avoiding a collision, given the speed differentials of the vessels, i don't believe the engine would have made any difference in this situation. in regards to the regs: it would have converted me to a vessel under power and i think (?) changed my status to some extent in relation to the 2 other vessels. not that my decision was based on that or that it really does not matter once fiberglass contacts steel. the point being i was making good speed in good wind. given that the tug/barge changed course twice: was he obligated to give way? or is this a "fluid" problem that needs to be constantly reassessed?--which means always stay out of his way no matter what courses he chooses? felt like a cat and mouse sort of thing. as a technical point: their seems to be a difference between an inablitiy to maneuver because of draft, in a particular direction--versus the general maneuverablity of a vessel because of length/speed/wieght. i am not sure these 2 issues are connected by the regs. as i understand it, constrained by draft is designed to prevent a vessel from running aground. in this regard there was no danger to the freighter who had plenty of room to the south, which was his general route. the tub could not turn towards the north to cross in front of me because of draft and speed issues, and he could not turn south because of the freighter, which left him pointed at me. my guess is not i or the freighter anticipated a circling tub. "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... Not knowing the area, I have a couple of comments. I'm not sure you were stand on, given that if there is any doubt about draft constraint. Also, a tug and a barge have status in most cases, but again, I don't know the area. Also, why not hail them and ask their intentions? Finally, while sailing does give you stand on status in many circumstances, it also limits your ability to take evasive action. Perhaps it would have been prudent to start the engine? -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "gonefishiing" wrote in message ... out for a late night sail last week, which i do a lot of. western edge of long island sound, ny on a port tack heading southwest towards the throgs neck bridge. slack tide. particulary dark night. full main and jib set 15 knots wind keeping a vigilant eye out for ships, i spot a black form against the lights of the city in front of me and realize it is a tug and barge and i also realize (in the absence of visible nav lights) his small profile means he is headed right at me and steaming. i decide to tack the boat around 180 degrees and give him some room........assuming (correctly) his course has 2 possiblities--he is going to continue eastbound in the sound or he is going to turn north towards eastchester bay to anchor his barge (partial mistake no.1?). he turns northeast towards the barge anchorage, paralleling my course and i am east of him and the barge anchorage- out of his way. towards the east i spot another ship (freighter) steaming westbound for the gate. he is north of the lane that most of the commerical ships take for the bridge. and a quick visual calculation tells me i can cross his bow without problem and also because he needs to turn behind my stern to set his course for the bridge (and soon!) (partial mistake no.2?) they are both aware that i am here-- million candle power lights illuminating sails had a way of doing that. (my light) 1: the freighter, westbound, is not turning although i have crossed his bow--only slightly and he'll end up passing beyond me, far too close and moving fast. 2: the tug/barge decides to steer a circle around the barge anchorage and end up eastbound again --off my port beam and close enough that i can see the pilot. he has slowed down significantly at this point as i am now between both vessels. (on a starboard tack) 3: they both passed "safely" at my stern, to the south of me the freigher first, the tug next. this was really too close for comfort, and i had my hands full sailing. not to negate my responsiblity, i think constrained by draft here is a relative term, if it even applies. they each had a mile of room to the south (behind me) to manuveur and cannot understand why they would choose to approach so closely, as my actions were clear, my course was appropriate and consistent and meant to give each a wide berth and for whatever it may be worth, i think everyone took the correct actions i believe i was the stand on vessel the freighter was 2nd in pecking order the tug/barge gave way what would you have done differently? gf. |
This is one of those grey areas where
you'll never get an answer from the CG. ain't no "grey area" at all. your engine is running you are a powerboat, neutral or not. |
"gonefishiing" wrote in message ...
what would you have done differently? Talked to them on the VHF and made passing agreements. Cussed out the tug for not displaying proper light. Joe gf. |
the engine was idle and not in gear.
no steaming light required. gf. bull****. your engine is running, you are poerboat. period. |
You don't even have to go there, just look at a chart.
I have been there. so many times I don't even have to guess where the "Cuban Ledge" is. |
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