?????
you know you may have some cracks somewhere letting cerebral fluids leak out
i'd get it checked out if i were you

too bad jon, you were doing ok there for a whole 5 minutes.

whats's OIC?
or should i ask?

gf.

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
"gonefishiing" wrote in message
...
hey i thought the dog thing was a different thread?

speaking of dogs: my daughter lives with me 1/2 time

Ummm...

and is hell bent on
getting a dog (13 yo)

OIC

Try again, jaxie, the rules are pretty clear that you have to be using the
engine for propulsion.

From Rule 3, Definitions:
(b) The term “power-driven vessel” means any vessel propelled by machinery;
(c) The term “sailing vessel” means any vessel under sail provided that
propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used;



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
This is one of those grey areas where
you'll never get an answer from the CG.



ain't no "grey area" at all. your engine is running you are a powerboat,
neutral or not.

the cat just died a couple of months ago.
i suspect from boredom reading all the poltical posts:
hence "a dog"


"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
"gonefishiing" wrote in message
...

A cat. A week is a long time - we leave our cats for 3-4 days. Longer
than
that we have a friend or neighbor drop by just to make sure they didn't
lock
themselves in a closet.

If we go sailing for more than about 4 days they come with us.

The dog, however, can't be left unattended for more than 8 hours, and even
that's a stretch.


one that is protective of place and can do something about it would help
keep in mind, it needs to be an urban kind of dog (whatever that means)
space ain't an issue--i live/work in a loft--figure it can get its
exercise
by running the length of this place
if it likes the water and goes sailing all the better.

how about a dog rental program for a month at a time?


Find a neighbor with a dog that travels and needs a dog-sitter.

What? You're naming a local feature (that appears on any chart) to try to
convince us you've been there??? Only someone who has never been there would
bother doing something as silly as that!



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
You don't even have to go there, just look at a chart.

I have been there.

so many times I don't even have to guess where the "Cuban Ledge" is.

actually, jeffies, the engine is NOT the determining factor.

people show ply the waters of the Sound know that. It is, after all, on the
charts.


Try again, jaxie, the rules are pretty clear that you have to be using the
engine for propulsion.

From Rule 3, Definitions:
(b) The term “power-driven vessel� means any vessel propelled by
machinery;
(c) The term “sailing vessel� means any vessel under sail provided that
propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used;



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
This is one of those grey areas where
you'll never get an answer from the CG.



ain't no "grey area" at all. your engine is running you are a powerboat,
neutral or not.

kriste, jeffies, even a clown like you would remember I sail from City Island.

From: "Jeff Morris"
Date: 8/15/2004 10:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

What? You're naming a local feature (that appears on any chart) to try to
convince us you've been there??? Only someone who has never been there would
bother doing something as silly as that!



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
You don't even have to go there, just look at a chart.

I have been there.

so many times I don't even have to guess where the "Cuban Ledge" is.

have you hit it that often?
gf.


"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
You don't even have to go there, just look at a chart.

I have been there.

so many times I don't even have to guess where the "Cuban Ledge" is.

you kidding? the size of that thing makes it impossible not to notice.

Even more so than a tug with a barge in tow all lit up at night.

From: "gonefishiing"
Date: 8/15/2004 10:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

have you hit it that often?
gf.


"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
You don't even have to go there, just look at a chart.

I have been there.

so many times I don't even have to guess where the "Cuban Ledge" is.

my memory tells me cuban ledge is only visible at low water
right or wrong?

big tom is rarely visible except at extreme low water


gf.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
you kidding? the size of that thing makes it impossible not to notice.

Even more so than a tug with a barge in tow all lit up at night.

From: "gonefishiing"
Date: 8/15/2004 10:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

have you hit it that often?
gf.


"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
You don't even have to go there, just look at a chart.

I have been there.

so many times I don't even have to guess where the "Cuban Ledge" is.

your memory is horse hockey. each is well marked.

From: "gonefishiing"
Date: 8/15/2004 10:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

my memory tells me cuban ledge is only visible at low water
right or wrong?

big tom is rarely visible except at extreme low water


gf.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
you kidding? the size of that thing makes it impossible not to notice.

Even more so than a tug with a barge in tow all lit up at night.

From: "gonefishiing"
Date: 8/15/2004 10:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

have you hit it that often?
gf.


"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
You don't even have to go there, just look at a chart.

I have been there.

so many times I don't even have to guess where the "Cuban Ledge" is.

Why didn't you call him (them) on the radio and discuss it the situation?

"gonefishiing" wrote

out for a late night sail last week, which i do a lot of.
western edge of long island sound, ny
on a port tack heading southwest towards the throgs neck bridge.
slack tide.
particulary dark night.
full main and jib set
15 knots wind

keeping a vigilant eye out for ships, i spot a black form against the
lights
of the city in front of me and realize it is a tug and barge and i also
realize (in the absence of visible nav lights) his small profile means he
is
headed right at me and steaming.

i decide to tack the boat around 180 degrees and give him some
room........assuming (correctly) his course has 2 possiblities--he is
going
to continue eastbound in the sound or he is going to turn north towards
eastchester bay to anchor his barge (partial mistake no.1?). he turns
northeast towards the barge anchorage, paralleling my course and i am east
of him and the barge anchorage- out of his way.

towards the east i spot another ship (freighter) steaming westbound for
the
gate. he is north of the lane that most of the commerical ships take for
the
bridge. and a quick visual calculation tells me i can cross his bow
without
problem and also because he needs to turn behind my stern to set his
course
for the bridge (and soon!) (partial mistake no.2?)

they are both aware that i am here-- million candle power lights
illuminating sails had a way of doing that. (my light)

1: the freighter, westbound, is not turning although i have crossed his
bow--only slightly and he'll end up passing beyond me, far too close and
moving fast.
2: the tug/barge decides to steer a circle around the barge anchorage and
end up eastbound again --off my port beam and close enough that i can see
the pilot. he has slowed down significantly at this point as i am now
between both vessels. (on a starboard tack)

3: they both passed "safely" at my stern, to the south of me the freigher
first, the tug next.

this was really too close for comfort, and i had my hands full sailing.
not to negate my responsiblity, i think constrained by draft here is a
relative term, if it even applies. they each had a mile of room to the
south
(behind me) to manuveur and cannot understand why they would choose to
approach so closely, as my actions were clear, my course was appropriate
and
consistent and meant to give each a wide berth

and for whatever it may be worth, i think everyone took the correct
actions
i believe i was the stand on vessel
the freighter was 2nd in pecking order
the tug/barge gave way

what would you have done differently?

gf.

did not ask if they are marked
i know they are marked

is cuban ledge visible?
gf.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
your memory is horse hockey. each is well marked.

From: "gonefishiing"
Date: 8/15/2004 10:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

my memory tells me cuban ledge is only visible at low water
right or wrong?

big tom is rarely visible except at extreme low water


gf.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
you kidding? the size of that thing makes it impossible not to notice.

Even more so than a tug with a barge in tow all lit up at night.

From: "gonefishiing"
Date: 8/15/2004 10:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

have you hit it that often?
gf.


"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
You don't even have to go there, just look at a chart.

I have been there.

so many times I don't even have to guess where the "Cuban Ledge" is.

Or sailed at night.

"Jeff Morris" wrote

Its pretty clear the jax has never sailed in these waters ...

"JAXAshby" wrote

gf, that is a crock of squat.

gonefishiing wrote:
out for a late night sail last week, which i do a lot of.
western edge of long island sound, ny
on a port tack heading southwest towards the throgs neck bridge.
slack tide.
particulary dark night.
full main and jib set
15 knots wind

keeping a vigilant eye out for ships, i spot a black form against the lights
of the city in front of me and realize it is a tug and barge and i also
realize (in the absence of visible nav lights) his small profile means he is
headed right at me and steaming.

Picking out tug/barge and ship lights against city lights can be a
problem. It is also a problem that many small boaters are not looking
high enough, to see them (they are looking at the horizon or perceived
horizon, whereas the lights of a closer large vessel are above that.)

i decide to tack the boat around 180 degrees and give him some
room........assuming (correctly) his course has 2 possiblities--he is going
to continue eastbound in the sound or he is going to turn north towards
eastchester bay to anchor his barge (partial mistake no.1?). he turns
northeast towards the barge anchorage, paralleling my course and i am east
of him and the barge anchorage- out of his way.

towards the east i spot another ship (freighter) steaming westbound for the
gate. he is north of the lane that most of the commerical ships take for the
bridge. and a quick visual calculation tells me i can cross his bow without
problem and also because he needs to turn behind my stern to set his course
for the bridge (and soon!) (partial mistake no.2?)

they are both aware that i am here-- million candle power lights
illuminating sails had a way of doing that. (my light)

1: the freighter, westbound, is not turning although i have crossed his
bow--only slightly and he'll end up passing beyond me, far too close and
moving fast.
2: the tug/barge decides to steer a circle around the barge anchorage and
end up eastbound again --off my port beam and close enough that i can see
the pilot. he has slowed down significantly at this point as i am now
between both vessels. (on a starboard tack)

3: they both passed "safely" at my stern, to the south of me the freigher
first, the tug next.

this was really too close for comfort, and i had my hands full sailing.
not to negate my responsiblity, i think constrained by draft here is a
relative term, if it even applies. they each had a mile of room to the south
(behind me) to manuveur and cannot understand why they would choose to
approach so closely, as my actions were clear, my course was appropriate and
consistent and meant to give each a wide berth

A "mile of room" is not really all that much room when talking about a
ship or tug/barge combo. Not having a chart of the area and knowing
exactly what and where the ship and tug were going and thinking, it's
hard to second guess what was happening.
I can really fault you on only one item ..... not contacting and
monitoring via VHF.
You will probably work this over in your mind a number of times and come
up with numerous possible solutions. However, what is most important is
that your actions, plus those of the others ended in a safe (if somewhat
close) passing situation.

and for whatever it may be worth, i think everyone took the correct actions
i believe i was the stand on vessel
the freighter was 2nd in pecking order
the tug/barge gave way

G Again, not knowing the area (well, I know it, but it's been awhile
and I'd need to see some charts), you may have been stand on, but the
others may have considered you to be "shall not impede", i.e. one mans
narrow channel, is another mans open sound.

what would you have done differently?

gf.

Other than the radio, hard to say. I especially like the fact you lit
your sails.

otn

Jonathan Ganz wrote:
That's not true on the SF bay. Tugs with barges have stand on.


I would want to read the nav regs for SF bay before I agreed fully with
that.
I believe the bay has a number of "traffic separation schemes" which
fall under SF traffic and thus "shall not impede" becomes important.
However, this is not a clear "stand-on" condition although many treat it
as such and justifiably so.

otn

(c) The term “sailing vessel” means any vessel under sail provided that
propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used;

Seems to me that if it was turned on, you're using it.
--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein



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we don't understand?? are you getting a little unruly tonite?????????

No...it's my general personality....I find the whole argument specious...My
first inclination, upon realizing that there were big things out there
trying to get me, would be to reduce sail, turn on the engine for
maneuverability, and to get out of dodge, not to play some kind of "who's on
first" game with freighters and barges....and hubby is immune...after being
married as long as we have been, that's just a yawn....

--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein



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JAXAshby wrote:
gf, that is a crock of squat.

a.) no barge coming out from under the Throgs Neck is heading *east* at least
until it nears City Island a couple miles to the northeast, and

b.) there is no ships traffic on western LIS except for
veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery occasionally, and

G Considering your only occasional underway time and fact that you
spend most in the galley, it's not surprising you rarely see commercial
traffic there, Doodles

c.) commercial traffic on that part of the Sound is limited to about 7 knots.

Says who?

*if* you missed seeing an approaching barge you were asleep for quite some
time.

BG don't get out on the water too much at night, do you Doodles


otn

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 03:38:10 GMT, something compelled otnmbrd
, to say:



Jonathan Ganz wrote:
That's not true on the SF bay. Tugs with barges have stand on.


I would want to read the nav regs for SF bay before I agreed fully with
that.
I believe the bay has a number of "traffic separation schemes" which
fall under SF traffic and thus "shall not impede" becomes important.
However, this is not a clear "stand-on" condition although many treat it
as such and justifiably so.


F=MA. It's all you really need to know.

JAXAshby wrote:
That's not true on the SF bay. Tugs with barges have stand on.



they do on LIS as well.

Says who?

You fictionalizing again Doodles?

13 yrs old and hell bent on getting a dog? And when she lives at the other
place half time, will your ex wife take the dog? If you live in an
apartment, there are dogs that will work...usually small, but some of the
larger, lazier breeds are ok in small places. When she's not there, who's
going to take care of it if it doesn't go with her? Sounds like a recipe
for disaster to me. Get another cat....their feelings aren't hurt if you
ignore them whereas dogs don't understand when you don't give them the
attention they want.

--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein



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"otnmbrd" wrote in message
hlink.net...

G Again, not knowing the area (well, I know it, but it's been awhile
and I'd need to see some charts), you may have been stand on, but the
others may have considered you to be "shall not impede", i.e. one mans
narrow channel, is another mans open sound.

otn,
interesting point: which ultimitely leads to having an agreement with the
vessels involved that no rule can provide
yes i have been running it thru my mind and come to the same conclusion: my
mistake is clearly that i was not monitoring the radio or making radio
contact with the 2 vessels to understand they're intentions.
gf.

JAXAshby wrote:
actually, jeffies, the engine is NOT the determining factor.

people show ply the waters of the Sound know that. It is, after all, on the
charts.

Phew. You mixing your meds again tonight, Doodles?

otn

Subject: night sailing - too close for comfort.
From: (JAXAshby)
Date: 08/15/2004 19:08 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

the engine was idle and not in gear.
no steaming light required.
gf.


bull****. your engine is running, you are poerboat. period.


Well, "Doodles", I see you know about as much about the "Rules" as you know
about any other aspect of boating ..... 10 points below "novice"

Shen

Subject: night sailing - too close for comfort.
From: "katysails"
Date: 08/15/2004 20:39 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


(c) The term “sailing vessel� means any vessel under sail provided that
propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used;

Seems to me that if it was turned on, you're using it.
--

For what? To charge your batteries, pump cooling water, burn fuel, cause
pollution? Or do you mean to propel your boat?
A running engine is just that, a running engine. Until it's connected to a
"reverse gear", propellor shaft, and propellor, which it's turning, it's
nothing more than a piece of machinery.
Now, having said that, have a collision ..... was your engine running? Was it
immediately available for use? Could it's use have changed the outcome? Should
you have made use of it?..... The courts will have to decide, and since you had
a collision and had a running engine which may or may not have been immediately
available, figure you'll share the blame.

Shen

sounds rather cynical.
oh well..............................
gf.

i'll rephrase it
she would like a dog
no disaster
basically need to come to terms with caring for it when she is not here.
i'll make that decision first
space is not a problem
in the meantime considering what breeds to think about.

protective
not small, not too big
good temperment around kids / visitors
lab
retriever
sheperd
akita
wolve
?

suggestions?
or is this specious as well?
gf.

Seems to me there's nothing in the regs that say it has to
be engaged....

Vessel Priority (your order of importance as a watercraft), in descending
order, is as follows:
a. A vessel not under command (Example: Loss of steering or power).

b. A vessel restricted in its ability to maneuver (i.e.: Underwater
operation such as diving or dredging).

c. A vessel constrained by draft (i.e.: A large vessel in a narrow
channel).

d. Fishing or trawling vessels (i.e.: Nets or trawler - remember not
trolling!).

e. Sailboats, meaning: boats under sail ONLY. If a sailboat is using its
auxiliary engine, it is a powerboat, even if the sails are up!

f. Power driven.
--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com


"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
Nope. The engine has to be in gear; what if it was just be run to charge
batteries, or if it was started but not warmed up?

Of course, if you had an engine but didn't use it to avoid a collision,
you'd
have 'splaing to do. And if you were powering you can't slip it into
neutral
and suddenly claim rights as a sailboat. This is one of those grey areas
where
you'll never get an answer from the CG.




"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Hey, umm... if the engine was started then you're a motorboat.
You have no status at that point, certainly not above a tug/tow.
I hope you were running your steaming light. Otherwise, you
could be cited.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"gonefishiing" wrote in message
...
agreed: for the sake of safety, i always stay away from bigger vessels
and
did so on this sail as well, until the tug/barge (TUB) changed course
for
the
final time. i was certain i was ok with both vessels until the barge
circled
around and was pointing at me again leaving me no evasive action to
take.

neither vessel produced any indication of warning that i was in the
way
(lights / horn)

agreed again: i realize i should have hailed them on the radio and
asked
for
they're intentions long before events became close.
definitely mistake no.1.
Sometimes i do this, sometimes i don't. it has always been a simple
assesment of whether i believe i will be out of the way. and i did
believe
this.
monitoring channel 13 for security calls is also something that i
usually
do
at night.
this night i did not.

the engine was started and idling by in case i needed it.
in regards to avoiding a collision, given the speed differentials of
the
vessels, i don't believe the engine would have made any difference in
this
situation.
in regards to the regs: it would have converted me to a vessel under
power
and i think (?) changed my status to some extent in relation to the 2
other
vessels. not that my decision was based on that or that it really does
not
matter once fiberglass contacts steel.
the point being i was making good speed in good wind.

given that the tug/barge changed course twice: was he obligated to
give
way?
or is this a "fluid" problem that needs to be constantly
reassessed?--which
means always stay out of his way no matter what courses he chooses?
felt like a cat and mouse sort of thing.

as a technical point: their seems to be a difference between an
inablitiy
to
maneuver because of draft, in a particular direction--versus the
general
maneuverablity of a vessel because of length/speed/wieght.
i am not sure these 2 issues are connected by the regs.
as i understand it, constrained by draft is designed to prevent a
vessel
from running aground.
in this regard there was no danger to the freighter who had plenty of
room
to the south, which was his general route.
the tub could not turn towards the north to cross in front of me
because
of
draft and speed issues, and he could not turn south because of the
freighter, which left him pointed at me.

my guess is not i or the freighter anticipated a circling tub.





"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Not knowing the area, I have a couple of comments.

I'm not sure you were stand on, given that if there is
any doubt about draft constraint. Also, a tug and
a barge have status in most cases, but again, I don't
know the area.

Also, why not hail them and ask their intentions?

Finally, while sailing does give you stand on status
in many circumstances, it also limits your ability to
take evasive action. Perhaps it would have been
prudent to start the engine?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"gonefishiing" wrote in message
...
out for a late night sail last week, which i do a lot of.
western edge of long island sound, ny
on a port tack heading southwest towards the throgs neck bridge.
slack tide.
particulary dark night.
full main and jib set
15 knots wind

keeping a vigilant eye out for ships, i spot a black form against
the
lights
of the city in front of me and realize it is a tug and barge and i
also
realize (in the absence of visible nav lights) his small profile
means
he
is
headed right at me and steaming.

i decide to tack the boat around 180 degrees and give him some
room........assuming (correctly) his course has 2 possiblities--he
is
going
to continue eastbound in the sound or he is going to turn north
towards
eastchester bay to anchor his barge (partial mistake no.1?). he
turns
northeast towards the barge anchorage, paralleling my course and i
am
east
of him and the barge anchorage- out of his way.

towards the east i spot another ship (freighter) steaming
westbound
for
the
gate. he is north of the lane that most of the commerical ships
take
for
the
bridge. and a quick visual calculation tells me i can cross his
bow
without
problem and also because he needs to turn behind my stern to set
his
course
for the bridge (and soon!) (partial mistake no.2?)

they are both aware that i am here-- million candle power lights
illuminating sails had a way of doing that. (my light)

1: the freighter, westbound, is not turning although i have
crossed
his
bow--only slightly and he'll end up passing beyond me, far too
close
and
moving fast.
2: the tug/barge decides to steer a circle around the barge
anchorage
and
end up eastbound again --off my port beam and close enough that i
can
see
the pilot. he has slowed down significantly at this point as i am
now
between both vessels. (on a starboard tack)

3: they both passed "safely" at my stern, to the south of me the
freigher
first, the tug next.

this was really too close for comfort, and i had my hands full
sailing.
not to negate my responsiblity, i think constrained by draft here
is a
relative term, if it even applies. they each had a mile of room to
the
south
(behind me) to manuveur and cannot understand why they would
choose to
approach so closely, as my actions were clear, my course was
appropriate
and
consistent and meant to give each a wide berth

and for whatever it may be worth, i think everyone took the
correct
actions
i believe i was the stand on vessel
the freighter was 2nd in pecking order
the tug/barge gave way

what would you have done differently?

gf.

Define "not being used." Used, the way I interpret it means on. Doesn't
matter what it's being used for.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
Try again, jaxie, the rules are pretty clear that you have to be using the
engine for propulsion.

From Rule 3, Definitions:
(b) The term "power-driven vessel" means any vessel propelled by
machinery;
(c) The term "sailing vessel" means any vessel under sail provided that
propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used;



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
This is one of those grey areas where
you'll never get an answer from the CG.



ain't no "grey area" at all. your engine is running you are a
powerboat,
neutral or not.

I agree, but I don't think I'd want to try and argue if the CG determines
it was on. How do I prove it wasn't being used to propel the boat?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Shen44" wrote in message
...
Subject: night sailing - too close for comfort.
From: "katysails"
Date: 08/15/2004 20:39 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


(c) The term "sailing vessel" means any vessel under sail provided that
propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used;

Seems to me that if it was turned on, you're using it.
--

For what? To charge your batteries, pump cooling water, burn fuel, cause
pollution? Or do you mean to propel your boat?
A running engine is just that, a running engine. Until it's connected to a
"reverse gear", propellor shaft, and propellor, which it's turning, it's
nothing more than a piece of machinery.
Now, having said that, have a collision ..... was your engine running? Was
it
immediately available for use? Could it's use have changed the outcome?
Should
you have made use of it?..... The courts will have to decide, and since
you had
a collision and had a running engine which may or may not have been
immediately
available, figure you'll share the blame.

Shen

Not according to the rules as I read them. If it's being used,
then the steaming light needs to be on. How does anyone
else on the water know you're just charging your bats?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"gonefishiing" wrote in message
...
the engine was idle and not in gear.
no steaming light required.
gf.

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Hey, umm... if the engine was started then you're a motorboat.
You have no status at that point, certainly not above a tug/tow.
I hope you were running your steaming light. Otherwise, you
could be cited.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"gonefishiing" wrote in message
...
agreed: for the sake of safety, i always stay away from bigger vessels
and
did so on this sail as well, until the tug/barge (TUB) changed course
for
the
final time. i was certain i was ok with both vessels until the barge
circled
around and was pointing at me again leaving me no evasive action to
take.

neither vessel produced any indication of warning that i was in the
way
(lights / horn)

agreed again: i realize i should have hailed them on the radio and
asked
for
they're intentions long before events became close.
definitely mistake no.1.
Sometimes i do this, sometimes i don't. it has always been a simple
assesment of whether i believe i will be out of the way. and i did
believe
this.
monitoring channel 13 for security calls is also something that i
usually
do
at night.
this night i did not.

the engine was started and idling by in case i needed it.
in regards to avoiding a collision, given the speed differentials of
the
vessels, i don't believe the engine would have made any difference in
this
situation.
in regards to the regs: it would have converted me to a vessel under
power
and i think (?) changed my status to some extent in relation to the 2
other
vessels. not that my decision was based on that or that it really does
not
matter once fiberglass contacts steel.
the point being i was making good speed in good wind.

given that the tug/barge changed course twice: was he obligated to
give
way?
or is this a "fluid" problem that needs to be constantly
reassessed?--which
means always stay out of his way no matter what courses he chooses?
felt like a cat and mouse sort of thing.

as a technical point: their seems to be a difference between an
inablitiy
to
maneuver because of draft, in a particular direction--versus the
general
maneuverablity of a vessel because of length/speed/wieght.
i am not sure these 2 issues are connected by the regs.
as i understand it, constrained by draft is designed to prevent a
vessel
from running aground.
in this regard there was no danger to the freighter who had plenty of
room
to the south, which was his general route.
the tub could not turn towards the north to cross in front of me
because
of
draft and speed issues, and he could not turn south because of the
freighter, which left him pointed at me.

my guess is not i or the freighter anticipated a circling tub.





"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Not knowing the area, I have a couple of comments.

I'm not sure you were stand on, given that if there is
any doubt about draft constraint. Also, a tug and
a barge have status in most cases, but again, I don't
know the area.

Also, why not hail them and ask their intentions?

Finally, while sailing does give you stand on status
in many circumstances, it also limits your ability to
take evasive action. Perhaps it would have been
prudent to start the engine?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"gonefishiing" wrote in message
...
out for a late night sail last week, which i do a lot of.
western edge of long island sound, ny
on a port tack heading southwest towards the throgs neck bridge.
slack tide.
particulary dark night.
full main and jib set
15 knots wind

keeping a vigilant eye out for ships, i spot a black form against
the
lights
of the city in front of me and realize it is a tug and barge and i
also
realize (in the absence of visible nav lights) his small profile
means
he
is
headed right at me and steaming.

i decide to tack the boat around 180 degrees and give him some
room........assuming (correctly) his course has 2 possiblities--he
is
going
to continue eastbound in the sound or he is going to turn north
towards
eastchester bay to anchor his barge (partial mistake no.1?). he
turns
northeast towards the barge anchorage, paralleling my course and i
am
east
of him and the barge anchorage- out of his way.

towards the east i spot another ship (freighter) steaming
westbound
for
the
gate. he is north of the lane that most of the commerical ships
take
for
the
bridge. and a quick visual calculation tells me i can cross his
bow
without
problem and also because he needs to turn behind my stern to set
his
course
for the bridge (and soon!) (partial mistake no.2?)

they are both aware that i am here-- million candle power lights
illuminating sails had a way of doing that. (my light)

1: the freighter, westbound, is not turning although i have
crossed
his
bow--only slightly and he'll end up passing beyond me, far too
close
and
moving fast.
2: the tug/barge decides to steer a circle around the barge
anchorage
and
end up eastbound again --off my port beam and close enough that i
can
see
the pilot. he has slowed down significantly at this point as i am
now
between both vessels. (on a starboard tack)

3: they both passed "safely" at my stern, to the south of me the
freigher
first, the tug next.

this was really too close for comfort, and i had my hands full
sailing.
not to negate my responsiblity, i think constrained by draft here
is
a
relative term, if it even applies. they each had a mile of room to
the
south
(behind me) to manuveur and cannot understand why they would
choose
to
approach so closely, as my actions were clear, my course was
appropriate
and
consistent and meant to give each a wide berth

and for whatever it may be worth, i think everyone took the
correct
actions
i believe i was the stand on vessel
the freighter was 2nd in pecking order
the tug/barge gave way

what would you have done differently?

gf.

Oh, I, See (pronounced "C")

Calm down, I was just kidding.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"gonefishiing" wrote in message
...
?????
you know you may have some cracks somewhere letting cerebral fluids leak
out
i'd get it checked out if i were you

too bad jon, you were doing ok there for a whole 5 minutes.

whats's OIC?
or should i ask?

gf.

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
"gonefishiing" wrote in message
...
hey i thought the dog thing was a different thread?

speaking of dogs: my daughter lives with me 1/2 time

Ummm...

and is hell bent on
getting a dog (13 yo)

OIC

that doesn't make any sense to me.
the rules deal with methods of propulsion and a vessels ability to maneuver
and the relation of one boat to another

to answer your question, they know because i don't have my steaming light
on: which means i am a sailing vessel, underway by sail only.
gf.




"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Not according to the rules as I read them. If it's being used,
then the steaming light needs to be on. How does anyone
else on the water know you're just charging your bats?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"gonefishiing" wrote in message
...
the engine was idle and not in gear.
no steaming light required.
gf.

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Hey, umm... if the engine was started then you're a motorboat.
You have no status at that point, certainly not above a tug/tow.
I hope you were running your steaming light. Otherwise, you
could be cited.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"gonefishiing" wrote in message
...
agreed: for the sake of safety, i always stay away from bigger
vessels
and
did so on this sail as well, until the tug/barge (TUB) changed
course
for
the
final time. i was certain i was ok with both vessels until the barge
circled
around and was pointing at me again leaving me no evasive action to
take.

neither vessel produced any indication of warning that i was in the
way
(lights / horn)

agreed again: i realize i should have hailed them on the radio and
asked
for
they're intentions long before events became close.
definitely mistake no.1.
Sometimes i do this, sometimes i don't. it has always been a simple
assesment of whether i believe i will be out of the way. and i did
believe
this.
monitoring channel 13 for security calls is also something that i
usually
do
at night.
this night i did not.

the engine was started and idling by in case i needed it.
in regards to avoiding a collision, given the speed differentials of
the
vessels, i don't believe the engine would have made any difference
in
this
situation.
in regards to the regs: it would have converted me to a vessel under
power
and i think (?) changed my status to some extent in relation to the
2
other
vessels. not that my decision was based on that or that it really
does
not
matter once fiberglass contacts steel.
the point being i was making good speed in good wind.

given that the tug/barge changed course twice: was he obligated to
give
way?
or is this a "fluid" problem that needs to be constantly
reassessed?--which
means always stay out of his way no matter what courses he chooses?
felt like a cat and mouse sort of thing.

as a technical point: their seems to be a difference between an
inablitiy
to
maneuver because of draft, in a particular direction--versus the
general
maneuverablity of a vessel because of length/speed/wieght.
i am not sure these 2 issues are connected by the regs.
as i understand it, constrained by draft is designed to prevent a
vessel
from running aground.
in this regard there was no danger to the freighter who had plenty
of
room
to the south, which was his general route.
the tub could not turn towards the north to cross in front of me
because
of
draft and speed issues, and he could not turn south because of the
freighter, which left him pointed at me.

my guess is not i or the freighter anticipated a circling tub.





"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Not knowing the area, I have a couple of comments.

I'm not sure you were stand on, given that if there is
any doubt about draft constraint. Also, a tug and
a barge have status in most cases, but again, I don't
know the area.

Also, why not hail them and ask their intentions?

Finally, while sailing does give you stand on status
in many circumstances, it also limits your ability to
take evasive action. Perhaps it would have been
prudent to start the engine?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"gonefishiing" wrote in message
...
out for a late night sail last week, which i do a lot of.
western edge of long island sound, ny
on a port tack heading southwest towards the throgs neck bridge.
slack tide.
particulary dark night.
full main and jib set
15 knots wind

keeping a vigilant eye out for ships, i spot a black form
against
the
lights
of the city in front of me and realize it is a tug and barge and
i
also
realize (in the absence of visible nav lights) his small profile
means
he
is
headed right at me and steaming.

i decide to tack the boat around 180 degrees and give him some
room........assuming (correctly) his course has 2
possiblities--he
is
going
to continue eastbound in the sound or he is going to turn north
towards
eastchester bay to anchor his barge (partial mistake no.1?). he
turns
northeast towards the barge anchorage, paralleling my course and
i
am
east
of him and the barge anchorage- out of his way.

towards the east i spot another ship (freighter) steaming
westbound
for
the
gate. he is north of the lane that most of the commerical ships
take
for
the
bridge. and a quick visual calculation tells me i can cross his
bow
without
problem and also because he needs to turn behind my stern to
set
his
course
for the bridge (and soon!) (partial mistake no.2?)

they are both aware that i am here-- million candle power lights
illuminating sails had a way of doing that. (my light)

1: the freighter, westbound, is not turning although i have
crossed
his
bow--only slightly and he'll end up passing beyond me, far too
close
and
moving fast.
2: the tug/barge decides to steer a circle around the barge
anchorage
and
end up eastbound again --off my port beam and close enough that
i
can
see
the pilot. he has slowed down significantly at this point as i
am
now
between both vessels. (on a starboard tack)

3: they both passed "safely" at my stern, to the south of me
the
freigher
first, the tug next.

this was really too close for comfort, and i had my hands full
sailing.
not to negate my responsiblity, i think constrained by draft
here
is
a
relative term, if it even applies. they each had a mile of room
to
the
south
(behind me) to manuveur and cannot understand why they would
choose
to
approach so closely, as my actions were clear, my course was
appropriate
and
consistent and meant to give each a wide berth

and for whatever it may be worth, i think everyone took the
correct
actions
i believe i was the stand on vessel
the freighter was 2nd in pecking order
the tug/barge gave way

what would you have done differently?

gf.

Now, having said that, have a collision ..... was your engine running? Was
it
immediately available for use? Could it's use have changed the outcome?
Should
you have made use of it?....

I would imagine the same rule should apply as the reefing rule....if you
think maybe, then do it or it will be too late....
--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein



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protective
not small, not too big
good temperament around kids / visitors
lab
retriever
shepherd
akita
wolve

None of these, if you get a puppy...labs and retrievers need two years to
wind down and if there is going to be a lack of attention 50% of the time,
then they're out...the other three are not for people with limited dog
experience...they are smart breeds and if left to their own devise, become
assertive and dominant and you'll have problems. Corgis, Shetland sheepdog,
some of the larger terrier breeds (not a Jack Russell, too labor intense)
would be better. They incorporate protectiveness and watchfulness with
loyalty and enough smarts to get by and be good pets. BTW, Akitas are
generally one-person dogs....and are quite a handful...any type of
domesticated wolf is a major problem...
--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein



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If you are really truly looking for the best dog for you, then speak with a
local obedience trainer about what suits your lifestyle...and then use them
after you get the puppy. Or speak to your vet. And don't discount the
rescue breed chapters for a suitable adult dog...there are acres of books on
the subject. The best books on training puppies are put out by the monks of
New Skete in New York, They breed German Shepards in particular but there
books are aimed toward the generic. And if the dog is going to be left on
its' own, make sure you crate train.

--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein



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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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"gonefishiing" wrote:
speaking of dogs: my daughter lives with me 1/2 time and is hell bent on
getting a dog (13 yo)

That's better than a pony.

Volunteer together at the local animal shelter. She'll get a chance to
spend time with (and help) puppies & kittens and also learn something
about responsibility.

you seem to have some knowledge of dogs so here goes:
any idea what kind of dog i can get that can feed itself, go for a walk, and
be left in charge of the office for say a week at a time?


Jeff Morris wrote:
A cat. A week is a long time - we leave our cats for 3-4 days. Longer than
that we have a friend or neighbor drop by just to make sure they didn't lock
themselves in a closet.

If we go sailing for more than about 4 days they come with us.

The dog, however, can't be left unattended for more than 8 hours, and even
that's a stretch.

Dogs are not built for staying by themselves. Dogs have a very deep
seated psychological need to be part of a pack. People are (fortunately
for dogs) a good substitute. Cats can be a substitute as well.

DSK

You keep claiming you "sail" from City Island, but your posts have betrayed you.
Anyone who sails there know the TN bridge runs north/south.


"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
kriste, jeffies, even a clown like you would remember I sail from City Island.

From: "Jeff Morris"
Date: 8/15/2004 10:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

What? You're naming a local feature (that appears on any chart) to try to
convince us you've been there??? Only someone who has never been there would
bother doing something as silly as that!



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
You don't even have to go there, just look at a chart.

I have been there.

so many times I don't even have to guess where the "Cuban Ledge" is.

The rules don't talk about "engines," they talk about "propelling machinery."
My engine is always "used" because if I didn't have it, there would be a big
hole in my boat. That doesn't mean its propelling. I can also use it as a hot
water heater - that doesn't mean its propelling.




"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Not according to the rules as I read them. If it's being used,
then the steaming light needs to be on. How does anyone
else on the water know you're just charging your bats?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"gonefishiing" wrote in message
...
the engine was idle and not in gear.
no steaming light required.
gf.

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Hey, umm... if the engine was started then you're a motorboat.
You have no status at that point, certainly not above a tug/tow.
I hope you were running your steaming light. Otherwise, you
could be cited.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"gonefishiing" wrote in message
...
agreed: for the sake of safety, i always stay away from bigger vessels
and
did so on this sail as well, until the tug/barge (TUB) changed course
for
the
final time. i was certain i was ok with both vessels until the barge
circled
around and was pointing at me again leaving me no evasive action to
take.

neither vessel produced any indication of warning that i was in the
way
(lights / horn)

agreed again: i realize i should have hailed them on the radio and
asked
for
they're intentions long before events became close.
definitely mistake no.1.
Sometimes i do this, sometimes i don't. it has always been a simple
assesment of whether i believe i will be out of the way. and i did
believe
this.
monitoring channel 13 for security calls is also something that i
usually
do
at night.
this night i did not.

the engine was started and idling by in case i needed it.
in regards to avoiding a collision, given the speed differentials of
the
vessels, i don't believe the engine would have made any difference in
this
situation.
in regards to the regs: it would have converted me to a vessel under
power
and i think (?) changed my status to some extent in relation to the 2
other
vessels. not that my decision was based on that or that it really does
not
matter once fiberglass contacts steel.
the point being i was making good speed in good wind.

given that the tug/barge changed course twice: was he obligated to
give
way?
or is this a "fluid" problem that needs to be constantly
reassessed?--which
means always stay out of his way no matter what courses he chooses?
felt like a cat and mouse sort of thing.

as a technical point: their seems to be a difference between an
inablitiy
to
maneuver because of draft, in a particular direction--versus the
general
maneuverablity of a vessel because of length/speed/wieght.
i am not sure these 2 issues are connected by the regs.
as i understand it, constrained by draft is designed to prevent a
vessel
from running aground.
in this regard there was no danger to the freighter who had plenty of
room
to the south, which was his general route.
the tub could not turn towards the north to cross in front of me
because
of
draft and speed issues, and he could not turn south because of the
freighter, which left him pointed at me.

my guess is not i or the freighter anticipated a circling tub.





"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Not knowing the area, I have a couple of comments.

I'm not sure you were stand on, given that if there is
any doubt about draft constraint. Also, a tug and
a barge have status in most cases, but again, I don't
know the area.

Also, why not hail them and ask their intentions?

Finally, while sailing does give you stand on status
in many circumstances, it also limits your ability to
take evasive action. Perhaps it would have been
prudent to start the engine?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"gonefishiing" wrote in message
...
out for a late night sail last week, which i do a lot of.
western edge of long island sound, ny
on a port tack heading southwest towards the throgs neck bridge.
slack tide.
particulary dark night.
full main and jib set
15 knots wind

keeping a vigilant eye out for ships, i spot a black form against
the
lights
of the city in front of me and realize it is a tug and barge and i
also
realize (in the absence of visible nav lights) his small profile
means
he
is
headed right at me and steaming.

i decide to tack the boat around 180 degrees and give him some
room........assuming (correctly) his course has 2 possiblities--he
is
going
to continue eastbound in the sound or he is going to turn north
towards
eastchester bay to anchor his barge (partial mistake no.1?). he
turns
northeast towards the barge anchorage, paralleling my course and i
am
east
of him and the barge anchorage- out of his way.

towards the east i spot another ship (freighter) steaming
westbound
for
the
gate. he is north of the lane that most of the commerical ships
take
for
the
bridge. and a quick visual calculation tells me i can cross his
bow
without
problem and also because he needs to turn behind my stern to set
his
course
for the bridge (and soon!) (partial mistake no.2?)

they are both aware that i am here-- million candle power lights
illuminating sails had a way of doing that. (my light)

1: the freighter, westbound, is not turning although i have
crossed
his
bow--only slightly and he'll end up passing beyond me, far too
close
and
moving fast.
2: the tug/barge decides to steer a circle around the barge
anchorage
and
end up eastbound again --off my port beam and close enough that i
can
see
the pilot. he has slowed down significantly at this point as i am
now
between both vessels. (on a starboard tack)

3: they both passed "safely" at my stern, to the south of me the
freigher
first, the tug next.

this was really too close for comfort, and i had my hands full
sailing.
not to negate my responsiblity, i think constrained by draft here
is
a
relative term, if it even applies. they each had a mile of room to
the
south
(behind me) to manuveur and cannot understand why they would
choose
to
approach so closely, as my actions were clear, my course was
appropriate
and
consistent and meant to give each a wide berth

and for whatever it may be worth, i think everyone took the
correct
actions
i believe i was the stand on vessel
the freighter was 2nd in pecking order
the tug/barge gave way

what would you have done differently?

gf.

Wrong on 1 1/2 counts. NUCs and RAMs are at the same priority - there is
nothing in the rules to the effect. Remember that a NUC might only have
diminished maneuverability, while a RAM could be completely unable to move.

Also "Constrained by Draft" never shows in the Inland Rules, which covers the
area of this discussion, and your home waters. Although Rule 9 sort of covers
the same situation, it would appear that the USA rule makers decided they didn't
want small boat arguing over who was more constrained than the other.

There are also a few minor omissions. For instance, which rule covers rowboats?



"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Seems to me there's nothing in the regs that say it has to
be engaged....

Vessel Priority (your order of importance as a watercraft), in descending
order, is as follows:
a. A vessel not under command (Example: Loss of steering or power).

b. A vessel restricted in its ability to maneuver (i.e.: Underwater
operation such as diving or dredging).

c. A vessel constrained by draft (i.e.: A large vessel in a narrow
channel).

d. Fishing or trawling vessels (i.e.: Nets or trawler - remember not
trolling!).

e. Sailboats, meaning: boats under sail ONLY. If a sailboat is using its
auxiliary engine, it is a powerboat, even if the sails are up!

f. Power driven.
--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com


"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
Nope. The engine has to be in gear; what if it was just be run to charge
batteries, or if it was started but not warmed up?

Of course, if you had an engine but didn't use it to avoid a collision,
you'd
have 'splaing to do. And if you were powering you can't slip it into
neutral
and suddenly claim rights as a sailboat. This is one of those grey areas
where
you'll never get an answer from the CG.




"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Hey, umm... if the engine was started then you're a motorboat.
You have no status at that point, certainly not above a tug/tow.
I hope you were running your steaming light. Otherwise, you
could be cited.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"gonefishiing" wrote in message
...
agreed: for the sake of safety, i always stay away from bigger vessels
and
did so on this sail as well, until the tug/barge (TUB) changed course
for
the
final time. i was certain i was ok with both vessels until the barge
circled
around and was pointing at me again leaving me no evasive action to
take.

neither vessel produced any indication of warning that i was in the
way
(lights / horn)

agreed again: i realize i should have hailed them on the radio and
asked
for
they're intentions long before events became close.
definitely mistake no.1.
Sometimes i do this, sometimes i don't. it has always been a simple
assesment of whether i believe i will be out of the way. and i did
believe
this.
monitoring channel 13 for security calls is also something that i
usually
do
at night.
this night i did not.

the engine was started and idling by in case i needed it.
in regards to avoiding a collision, given the speed differentials of
the
vessels, i don't believe the engine would have made any difference in
this
situation.
in regards to the regs: it would have converted me to a vessel under
power
and i think (?) changed my status to some extent in relation to the 2
other
vessels. not that my decision was based on that or that it really does
not
matter once fiberglass contacts steel.
the point being i was making good speed in good wind.

given that the tug/barge changed course twice: was he obligated to
give
way?
or is this a "fluid" problem that needs to be constantly
reassessed?--which
means always stay out of his way no matter what courses he chooses?
felt like a cat and mouse sort of thing.

as a technical point: their seems to be a difference between an
inablitiy
to
maneuver because of draft, in a particular direction--versus the
general
maneuverablity of a vessel because of length/speed/wieght.
i am not sure these 2 issues are connected by the regs.
as i understand it, constrained by draft is designed to prevent a
vessel
from running aground.
in this regard there was no danger to the freighter who had plenty of
room
to the south, which was his general route.
the tub could not turn towards the north to cross in front of me
because
of
draft and speed issues, and he could not turn south because of the
freighter, which left him pointed at me.

my guess is not i or the freighter anticipated a circling tub.





"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Not knowing the area, I have a couple of comments.

I'm not sure you were stand on, given that if there is
any doubt about draft constraint. Also, a tug and
a barge have status in most cases, but again, I don't
know the area.

Also, why not hail them and ask their intentions?

Finally, while sailing does give you stand on status
in many circumstances, it also limits your ability to
take evasive action. Perhaps it would have been
prudent to start the engine?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"gonefishiing" wrote in message
...
out for a late night sail last week, which i do a lot of.
western edge of long island sound, ny
on a port tack heading southwest towards the throgs neck bridge.
slack tide.
particulary dark night.
full main and jib set
15 knots wind

keeping a vigilant eye out for ships, i spot a black form against
the
lights
of the city in front of me and realize it is a tug and barge and i
also
realize (in the absence of visible nav lights) his small profile
means
he
is
headed right at me and steaming.

i decide to tack the boat around 180 degrees and give him some
room........assuming (correctly) his course has 2 possiblities--he
is
going
to continue eastbound in the sound or he is going to turn north
towards
eastchester bay to anchor his barge (partial mistake no.1?). he
turns
northeast towards the barge anchorage, paralleling my course and i
am
east
of him and the barge anchorage- out of his way.

towards the east i spot another ship (freighter) steaming
westbound
for
the
gate. he is north of the lane that most of the commerical ships
take
for
the
bridge. and a quick visual calculation tells me i can cross his
bow
without
problem and also because he needs to turn behind my stern to set
his
course
for the bridge (and soon!) (partial mistake no.2?)

they are both aware that i am here-- million candle power lights
illuminating sails had a way of doing that. (my light)

1: the freighter, westbound, is not turning although i have
crossed
his
bow--only slightly and he'll end up passing beyond me, far too
close
and
moving fast.
2: the tug/barge decides to steer a circle around the barge
anchorage
and
end up eastbound again --off my port beam and close enough that i
can
see
the pilot. he has slowed down significantly at this point as i am
now
between both vessels. (on a starboard tack)

3: they both passed "safely" at my stern, to the south of me the
freigher
first, the tug next.

this was really too close for comfort, and i had my hands full
sailing.
not to negate my responsiblity, i think constrained by draft here
is a
relative term, if it even applies. they each had a mile of room to
the
south
(behind me) to manuveur and cannot understand why they would
choose to
approach so closely, as my actions were clear, my course was
appropriate
and
consistent and meant to give each a wide berth

and for whatever it may be worth, i think everyone took the
correct
actions
i believe i was the stand on vessel
the freighter was 2nd in pecking order
the tug/barge gave way

what would you have done differently?

gf.