Michael wrote:
In fact the rigging shop said they weren't taking off the topping lift and
for all the reasons Thom mentioned.

The only thing Ol' Thom listed that a rigid vang can't do is become an
emergency backstay. It will (or should) be able to support the boom for
hoisting.

DSK

"DSK" wrote in message

The only thing Ol' Thom listed that a rigid vang can't do is become an
| emergency backstay. It will (or should) be able to support the boom for
| hoisting.

Not a chance Doug! The mechanics are all wrong and the placement is useless
for that purpose.

CM

The only way I could even contemplate that would be to disconnect it
from the base of the mast, then put it somewhere back, but I can't
imagine it would do much good.

In article ,
Capt. Mooron wrote:

"DSK" wrote in message

The only thing Ol' Thom listed that a rigid vang can't do is become an
| emergency backstay. It will (or should) be able to support the boom for
| hoisting.

Not a chance Doug! The mechanics are all wrong and the placement is useless
for that purpose.

CM




--
Jonathan Ganz (j gan z @ $ail no w.c=o=m)
http://www.sailnow.com
"If there's no wind, row."

Capt. Mooron wrote:
Not a chance Doug! The mechanics are all wrong and the placement is useless
for that purpose.


???

It holds up the boom, right?

Jonathan Ganz wrote:
The only way I could even contemplate that would be to disconnect it
from the base of the mast, then put it somewhere back, but I can't
imagine it would do much good.

??? ???

Have either of you all ever actually seen a solid vang?

DSK

Yup.... and no way it would hold the boom so I could hoist the auxiliary out
of the engine room with one!

For that you need a topping lift..

CM

"DSK" wrote in message
| Have either of you all ever actually seen a solid vang?
|
| DSK
|

Capt. Mooron wrote:
Yup.... and no way it would hold the boom so I could hoist the auxiliary out
of the engine room with one!

For that you need a topping lift..

In that case, the solid vangs you've seen (and/or the booms) were sadly
lacking.

If it won't hold up a piddly little outboard motor, how is it going to
hold the force of the whole boat driving the boom tip into wave crests,
or any of the other things that can be expected to happen when you
*really* sail, occasionally in hard conditions?

I think you're forming your opinion based on incomplete data.

A *real* solid vang (and boom) will fulfill all the functions of a
topping lift, except as an emergency backstay replacement. I've seen a
lot that wouldn't, but I don't like them either.

It's sort of like a centerboard one-design that won't plane... what's
the point?

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

In article ,
DSK wrote:
A *real* solid vang (and boom) will fulfill all the functions of a
topping lift, except as an emergency backstay replacement. I've seen a
lot that wouldn't, but I don't like them either.

It's sort of like a centerboard one-design that won't plane... what's
the point?

Doug, I thougth that's what you were saying it would do... as an
emergency backstay. Oh well... my reading comprehension is going
downhill fast.



--
Jonathan Ganz (j gan z @ $ail no w.c=o=m)
http://www.sailnow.com
"If there's no wind, row."

"DSK" wrote in message

| If it won't hold up a piddly little outboard motor, how is it going to
| hold the force of the whole boat driving the boom tip into wave crests,
| or any of the other things that can be expected to happen when you
| *really* sail, occasionally in hard conditions?

it's an auxiliary diesel.. 30 HP! The vang holds the boom down not up...
yes it has the capacity to hold up a boom up with some weight.... but that
is not it's primary function.

Leverage is required at the end of the boom for lifting. I'm certain you are
familiar with fulcrums?
Where would you fasten the mainsheet to the boom... generally it's 50% of
the length or more. Look where the vang is... at what 15%?

|
| I think you're forming your opinion based on incomplete data.

My data seems more complete than yours at the moment Doug.


|
| A *real* solid vang (and boom) will fulfill all the functions of a
| topping lift, except as an emergency backstay replacement. I've seen a
| lot that wouldn't, but I don't like them either.

No Way Doug!! No for all the tea in China. The engineering is out to lunch
for such a claim.

CM

Doug,

Think about the mechanics of both your statement and mine

By using the topping lift for Hoisting the total strength of the Rig is
used (Shrouds, fore and back stays; In my case double lower shrouds to
keep Mast in line.
With the Rigid Vang in Hoisting, you are putting Max Effort on the end
of the boom, supported at a point about 1/4 of the way back from the
Gooseneck.
That is an awful long unsupported Alum. Pole. (Hollow Aluminium Pole).

In operation, the force of the sail is at least two points on the boom,
with the main sheet countering the force on the boom. Often assisted by
the Vang. Often over assisted by a Hydra. Rigid Vang.

I'm sure, as an Engineer, you can admit to the difference

If you were careening the hull, you wouldn't weight the end of the boom
without the back-up of the topping lift and/or a halyard to call on the
full strength of the total rig. The topping lift is a solid connection.
The halyard is a varying force

Just some things to remind you of.

I'm not knocking the Rigid Vang. I wish I could fit one on my boat but
the Pilothouse makes that impossible. I'm thinking I might be able to
use a KICKER. I'm pointing out that PITA top lift still is a worthwhile
addition.

Ole Thom

Thom Stewart wrote:
Doug,

Think about the mechanics of both your statement and mine

OK

By using the topping lift for Hoisting the total strength of the Rig is
used (Shrouds, fore and back stays; In my case double lower shrouds to
keep Mast in line.

OK

With the Rigid Vang in Hoisting, you are putting Max Effort on the end
of the boom, supported at a point about 1/4 of the way back from the
Gooseneck.
That is an awful long unsupported Alum. Pole. (Hollow Aluminium Pole).

OK

Oh, are you saying that the boom might fold up? You're right, but it
shouldn't unless it was too weak to start with. Is your boom the same
spar section as your mast? If so then it probably isn't strong enough to
use with a solid vang anyway.

Think about this, Thom... the force on the end of the boom is going to
be very great when sailing hard... enough to lean the boat over a lot.
If the boom end can take that force, then it should take that same force
in the form of a weight heavy enough to heel the boat over.



In operation, the force of the sail is at least two points on the boom,
with the main sheet countering the force on the boom. Often assisted by
the Vang. Often over assisted by a Hydra. Rigid Vang.

I'm sure, as an Engineer, you can admit to the difference

Yep. The difference is that in one case, you have put the boom & mast
under compression by tensioning the whole rig. In the other, you have
put the boom under a torsion load, and on a much smaller part of the
mast, and none on the rig (which actually means less stress on the hull).


If you were careening the hull, you wouldn't weight the end of the boom
without the back-up of the topping lift and/or a halyard to call on the
full strength of the total rig.

Probably not to careen the boat, but if I had a solid vang suitable for
hard sailing, I would not hesitate to hoist a weight on the boom that
would heel the boat far enough to put the boom in the water.

... The topping lift is a solid connection.

???

The halyard is a varying force

???


Just some things to remind you of.

I'm not knocking the Rigid Vang. I wish I could fit one on my boat but
the Pilothouse makes that impossible. I'm thinking I might be able to
use a KICKER. I'm pointing out that PITA top lift still is a worthwhile
addition.

In some cases, yes very much. In others, it's just in the way. My point
is that if a boat & it's rig is engineered to take proper advantage of a
solid vang, then you do not need a topping lift. Do not. Period.

If the rig is noodley and engineered to transfer compressive loads
through a series of components, then a solid vang can be added for
convenience but it will not be as useful. If the rig has a very low boom
or a pilothouse, there's not room for a proper vang anyway... but you
can probably do a lot of the same sail trim functions with a wide traveler.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King