plugster wrote:
I need to replace or rebuild 2 Yanmar 3GM30FC saildrives in a 43 foot
sailing catamaran. The old ones are 27 hp with the SD20 saildrive and have
about 3000 hours on them and were submerged in salt water for about 3 days.
Once removed from the water they were taken apart, washed and oiled.

Not the best treatment IMHO. They should have been washed in fresh
water, had the heads pulled & dried, oil changed, and immediately run.
BUt that's water over the dam at this point.


I think I have about 5 options. The first is to have the whole units
rebuilt.

Given the cost of rebuilding AND reinstalling them, this may not be the
best use of funds.


... My third option is to replace the whole system with the newer
Yanmar 3YM30CE version that is 29 hp. I think that this is a bolt in
replacement.

If it really is a "bolt-in" replacement then that may be the best way to
go , in terms of utility/cost comparison. I'm sceptical of the "bolt-in"
part though, it never goes that easy.

... My forth option is to replace them with the larger 3JH4CE
Yanmar with the SD40 saildrive. This is the 40 hp version and looks like it
costs about $1500 more each over the 29 hp units. Has anyone replaced the
smaller and older 27 hp unit with the newer 29 or 40 hp unit?

I personally have not. But I am somewhat familiar with a smaller
Norseman and I wonder if you have the space to install them... and if
so, will access to larger units be a maintenance headache?

... I know the
mounts are different with the 40 hp. How much added work and how difficult
is this?

Considering the fiberglass work you're already committed to, it may be
easiest to saw the sterns off, put the engines & drives in, and then
fiberglass the sterns back in place


The fifth option is to replace them with other units. Are the Volvo units
identical to the Yanmar units?

No

... Can you buy them for a better price?

???
I've never heard anybody use the words "Volvo" and "better price" in the
same sentence before.

I have a number of friends with Volvo saildrives and they all report
that the units work wonderfully but are $$$$ to maintain.

... Has
anyone had any experience with other saildrives?

Some. Yanmars probably the best.

... How difficult are they to
adapt?

If you can be casual about sawing a big hole in the hull, easy. If
you're squeamish about it, then very difficult to impossible.

... What do you think about going to V drives with a conventional shaft
and prop?

See above. You're going to have to reengineer the back ends of the hulls
to change engine configurations. I happen to like the concept of the
V-drive but have never ever seen an installation that wasn't a
nightmare. I don't know why this is.



... On all of these I have the option of fixed (about $600 each!) or
folding props (about $1400 each!!!!!) what do people like better and why?

Personally I like folding props on boats that sail fast.


How much more power cruise speed would you expect to have going from 27 to
29 or 40 hp? Most people claim the boat is underpowered with the 27 hp
engines and will do about 7 to 8 knots.

Most people are in love with horsepower for it's own sake.

IMHO it's a bad idea. You will gain 10% speed, perhaps 15%, and burn 4/3
the fuel; and that's if you carefully match the props size & pitch. If
you don't do the homework carefully (or pay an expert to do it) then
you'll gain less speed and burn twice the fuel. You'll add weight to the
boat and bury the stern. You will increase the draft. You will have less
access for maintenance. Many people think that increased horsepower
gives you better maneuverability, but remember that water is
incompressible. You just make more noise & froth. I could go on and on,
but this is probably the highlights...

Interesting project. I wonder why the owner did not keep the boat and
put back in commissionn. Good luck with it, hope to hear more from you.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"DSK" wrote in message
.. .
plugster wrote:
I need to replace or rebuild 2 Yanmar 3GM30FC saildrives in a 43 foot
sailing catamaran. The old ones are 27 hp with the SD20 saildrive and
have
about 3000 hours on them and were submerged in salt water for about 3
days.
Once removed from the water they were taken apart, washed and oiled.

Not the best treatment IMHO. They should have been washed in fresh
water, had the heads pulled & dried, oil changed, and immediately run.
BUt that's water over the dam at this point.


I also agree but there is nothing I can do about it now.


I think I have about 5 options. The first is to have the whole units
rebuilt.

Given the cost of rebuilding AND reinstalling them, this may not be the
best use of funds.


I can easily reinstall them myself in about a day each. I have done this
type of work before. I also have a quote of $1100 each to install new ones
of the same basic type. The new engines cost about $8500 each plus about
$250 each shipping.


... My third option is to replace the whole system with the newer
Yanmar 3YM30CE version that is 29 hp. I think that this is a bolt in
replacement.

If it really is a "bolt-in" replacement then that may be the best way to
go , in terms of utility/cost comparison. I'm sceptical of the "bolt-in"
part though, it never goes that easy.


I am also a bit sceptical and am sure there will be a few problems fitting
them. But others have done this swap and have said it was simple and took
less than a day with 2 people.

... My forth option is to replace them with the larger 3JH4CE
Yanmar with the SD40 saildrive. This is the 40 hp version and looks
like it
costs about $1500 more each over the 29 hp units. Has anyone replaced
the
smaller and older 27 hp unit with the newer 29 or 40 hp unit?

I personally have not. But I am somewhat familiar with a smaller
Norseman and I wonder if you have the space to install them... and if
so, will access to larger units be a maintenance headache?


The 40 hp version is only 1.5 inches longer and 2.5 inches wider. I know
that even this can be a problem but it looks like it should not be an issue.
The SD40 drive on the 40 HP also has a better reputation and is easier to
maintain. I think you need to haul the boat to change the oil in the SD20
but you can do it in from the inside with the SD40. Has anyone any comments
on what one is better?

... I know the
mounts are different with the 40 hp. How much added work and how
difficult
is this?

Considering the fiberglass work you're already committed to, it may be
easiest to saw the sterns off, put the engines & drives in, and then
fiberglass the sterns back in place


I sure hope not! I also do not think (hope?) that it is a big problem
getting the engines in or out of the engine compartment.


The fifth option is to replace them with other units. Are the Volvo
units
identical to the Yanmar units?

No

... Can you buy them for a better price?

???
I've never heard anybody use the words "Volvo" and "better price" in the
same sentence before.

I have a number of friends with Volvo saildrives and they all report
that the units work wonderfully but are $$$$ to maintain.

... Has
anyone had any experience with other saildrives?

Some. Yanmars probably the best.


I think that I will be sticking with the Yanmars.

... How difficult are they to
adapt?

If you can be casual about sawing a big hole in the hull, easy. If
you're squeamish about it, then very difficult to impossible.

... What do you think about going to V drives with a conventional shaft
and prop?

See above. You're going to have to reengineer the back ends of the hulls
to change engine configurations. I happen to like the concept of the
V-drive but have never ever seen an installation that wasn't a
nightmare. I don't know why this is.



Unless this produced a huge advantage I think that I will stay with the
saildrives.


... On all of these I have the option of fixed (about $600 each!) or
folding props (about $1400 each!!!!!) what do people like better and
why?

Personally I like folding props on boats that sail fast.


I like them too but $1400 each!!! Ouch.


How much more power cruise speed would you expect to have going from 27
to
29 or 40 hp? Most people claim the boat is underpowered with the 27 hp
engines and will do about 7 to 8 knots.

Most people are in love with horsepower for it's own sake.

IMHO it's a bad idea. You will gain 10% speed, perhaps 15%, and burn 4/3
the fuel; and that's if you carefully match the props size & pitch. If
you don't do the homework carefully (or pay an expert to do it) then
you'll gain less speed and burn twice the fuel. You'll add weight to the
boat and bury the stern. You will increase the draft. You will have less
access for maintenance. Many people think that increased horsepower
gives you better maneuverability, but remember that water is
incompressible. You just make more noise & froth. I could go on and on,
but this is probably the highlights...


The 40 hp engine also has a larger drive and a larger prop. It is my
understanding that this also makes the drive a bit more efficient so there
is more like a 20%+ increase in speed for the 38% increase in power and fuel
consumption. One other advantage of the 40 hp is that it develops the 40 hp
at 3000 rpm but the 29 hp is at 3600 rpm. The added weight of the 40 hp
over the 29 hp is 98 lbs each so I do not think that this is major factor.

Interesting project. I wonder why the owner did not keep the boat and
put back in commissionn. Good luck with it, hope to hear more from you.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Thanks for your input.
Mark

Given the cost of rebuilding AND reinstalling them, this may not be the
best use of funds.


plugster wrote:
I can easily reinstall them myself in about a day each. I have done this
type of work before.

Yeah, it's not rocket science but it can sure be a PITA. Getting all the
auxiliaries hooked up is the touchy part, and time consuming too.

If you can doa significant part of it yourself then IMHO that tilts the
equation towards rebuilding/reinstalling the old engines. Shopping
around for a diesel shop is a catch-as-can process. I wish I had some
good advice.


If it really is a "bolt-in" replacement then that may be the best way to
go , in terms of utility/cost comparison. I'm sceptical of the "bolt-in"
part though, it never goes that easy.



I am also a bit sceptical and am sure there will be a few problems fitting
them. But others have done this swap and have said it was simple and took
less than a day with 2 people.

Then it's a question of time/money. You have a number of other projects
to get on with, so the less time you spend futzing with this, the sooner
you're sailing. It may be that it's worth the higher price for new
engines, and you'll spend less time monkeying around with the reinstall.



The 40 hp version is only 1.5 inches longer and 2.5 inches wider....
The 40 hp engine also has a larger drive and a larger prop. It is my
understanding that this also makes the drive a bit more efficient so there
is more like a 20%+ increase in speed for the 38% increase in power and fuel
consumption. One other advantage of the 40 hp is that it develops the 40 hp
at 3000 rpm but the 29 hp is at 3600 rpm. The added weight of the 40 hp
over the 29 hp is 98 lbs each so I do not think that this is major factor.

Yes it is. 200# added disp, at the stern, plus higher fuel consumption
(have you thought about putting in bigger tanks?), is an issue on a
sailing cat IMHO. If you like the idea of sailing slower plus having to
scrape barnacles off the stern platforms, then I guess it's no big deal.

It sounds like you're leaning towards the bigger engines anyway. Like I
said, most people seem to have a love affair with horsepower. I don't
share it, maybe I got it out of my system or maybe I'm just jealous

DSK

Hello DSK,

I took another look at the actual sail drives including the insides and they
look great. I have also found new direct replacement engines of the same
size for $3995 each. So I think I am just going to replace the engines only
and overhaul the saildrives. This will keep the same weight and power but
at least they will be new engines and the cost is less then 1/2 of going
with the new engines and drives.

I was and still am planning on adding bigger tanks.

Thanks for you input.
Mark


"DSK" wrote in message
...
Given the cost of rebuilding AND reinstalling them, this may not be the
best use of funds.


plugster wrote:
I can easily reinstall them myself in about a day each. I have done
this
type of work before.

Yeah, it's not rocket science but it can sure be a PITA. Getting all the
auxiliaries hooked up is the touchy part, and time consuming too.

If you can doa significant part of it yourself then IMHO that tilts the
equation towards rebuilding/reinstalling the old engines. Shopping
around for a diesel shop is a catch-as-can process. I wish I had some
good advice.


If it really is a "bolt-in" replacement then that may be the best way to
go , in terms of utility/cost comparison. I'm sceptical of the "bolt-in"
part though, it never goes that easy.



I am also a bit sceptical and am sure there will be a few problems
fitting
them. But others have done this swap and have said it was simple and
took
less than a day with 2 people.

Then it's a question of time/money. You have a number of other projects
to get on with, so the less time you spend futzing with this, the sooner
you're sailing. It may be that it's worth the higher price for new
engines, and you'll spend less time monkeying around with the reinstall.



The 40 hp version is only 1.5 inches longer and 2.5 inches wider....
The 40 hp engine also has a larger drive and a larger prop. It is my
understanding that this also makes the drive a bit more efficient so
there
is more like a 20%+ increase in speed for the 38% increase in power and
fuel
consumption. One other advantage of the 40 hp is that it develops the
40 hp
at 3000 rpm but the 29 hp is at 3600 rpm. The added weight of the 40 hp
over the 29 hp is 98 lbs each so I do not think that this is major
factor.

Yes it is. 200# added disp, at the stern, plus higher fuel consumption
(have you thought about putting in bigger tanks?), is an issue on a
sailing cat IMHO. If you like the idea of sailing slower plus having to
scrape barnacles off the stern platforms, then I guess it's no big deal.

It sounds like you're leaning towards the bigger engines anyway. Like I
said, most people seem to have a love affair with horsepower. I don't
share it, maybe I got it out of my system or maybe I'm just jealous

DSK

plugster wrote:
Hello DSK,

Please call me Doug. No need to be formal


I took another look at the actual sail drives including the insides and they
look great.

Good! AFAIK they are sealed and if no salt water got in them, they are
most likely fine.

.... I have also found new direct replacement engines of the same
size for $3995 each.

Now that sounds like a good price.

.... So I think I am just going to replace the engines only
and overhaul the saildrives. This will keep the same weight and power but
at least they will be new engines and the cost is less then 1/2 of going
with the new engines and drives.

That sounds great. The new engines will be good for peace of mind.


I was and still am planning on adding bigger tanks.

I'm considering adding some bladder tanks. There are some issues on
installation, but (again) it's not rocket science and I feel they will
be more compact & less trouble. This spring I replaced the fuel supply
system in our boat (a more challenging job than I thought it would be)
and made provisions for future additions & upgrades.



Thanks for you input.

You're welcome. Good luck with your project!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

I have also found new direct replacement engines of the same
size for $3995 each.

New 3 cyl. Yanmars for $3995? Could I have the name of that dealer?
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"Trains are a winter sport"

I gave them a call and it turns out that they are used and shop overhauled.
Or I would have bought them.

They do have new 3YM30 for about $6500. I think they are rated 29 hp versis
27 hp for the 3GM30. Is it worth it to upgrade?

Thanks
Mark



"SAIL LOCO" wrote in message
...
I have also found new direct replacement engines of the same
size for $3995 each.

New 3 cyl. Yanmars for $3995? Could I have the name of that dealer?
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"Trains are a winter sport"

I've been a bit envious of my friend's new 3YM, but its for small things, like
the waterpump is mounted with the cover facing out, not in. I don't know if
that, and a few other little niceties, is worth the premium you'll pay. The 2
extra hp probably won't be noticed.

The question in my mind is will fixing up the 3GM's give you rebuilt engines, or
will they still effectively have 3000 hours?

The saildrives should have survived the submersion well - they're effective
sealed.


"plugster" wrote in message
link.net...
I gave them a call and it turns out that they are used and shop overhauled.
Or I would have bought them.

They do have new 3YM30 for about $6500. I think they are rated 29 hp versis
27 hp for the 3GM30. Is it worth it to upgrade?

Thanks
Mark



"SAIL LOCO" wrote in message
...
I have also found new direct replacement engines of the same
size for $3995 each.

New 3 cyl. Yanmars for $3995? Could I have the name of that dealer?
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"Trains are a winter sport"

I gave them a call and it turns out that they are used and shop overhauled.
Or I would have bought them..

I thought something had to be fishy. A replacement 2GM for my boat is more
than the price you were quoted. Yanmars are great engines but the company
should really be investigated for price fixing since almost every dealer sells
for list and it's tough to get a discount. This on top of the fact the things
are overpriced in the first place. Almost $5k for a 2 cyl diesel. **** you
can buy a built Chevy V8 street rod crate motor for that kind of money.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"Trains are a winter sport"