"DSK" wrote in message


Maxprop wrote:
Absolutely. A 505, for example, dumps its load right now after
righting.
In fact it rides so high on its side that it takes almost no water
aboard
when righted.

And can be difficult to climb into from the water... one of the
less-often-told benefits of a completely open transom!

... A Snipe has too much rocker (sorry, canoe term) in its keel,
making for a low spot at the daggerboard trunk.

Rocker is a common term for all kinds of hulls. I don't think a Snipe a
good candidate for a full double bottom, completely self-bailing,
because of the low freeboard & the rocker you mention. A friend of mine
tried to make a Comet fully self-bailing and ended up with a board
boat... it was fun to sail but it wasn't what he intended!

I haven't seen any new Snipes lately, but when we left that class most of
the boats *were* built with a full double bottom. And yes, the sole was
high enough to put your knees in your face, it seemed.


The last dinghy I raced seriously was a Thistle. No deck, deep bilge
relative to the transom, and it didn't take much of a rail in the water
to
ship about 100 gallons in a flash. Bailers are a must on Thistles. I
learned to hate that boat.


The thing I dislike about Thistles is the set of bruises you acquire in
sailing them. Plus droop-hiking is not healthy and I'm getting a bit
creaky (or maybe a bit too smart) to be into that kind of self-abuse.

Thistle sailors suffer a particularly singular malady termed "rail tail"
from sitting on that 2" rail for prolonged periods. Our national newsletter
had ads for special shorts with padding specific to sailing/crewing
Thistles. I bought a pair and they really helped, but they also coined a
new term: "Thistle butt," referring to the way one looked while walking
around the marina in them.


Pony Express wrote:
Yeah, after righting a Thistle, you'll have about
800 gallons of water in it. Not much fun.

No no, 900 at least!

One question, why was the rail in the water if you
were racing seriously?

Really vigorous roll tacks? It can't be due to chop because nobody raes
Thistles in 3 knots of wind.

But the Thistle is a classic... a really pretty boat and wicked fast in
light air.

I doubt if any boat moves quite as well in 5kts with spinnaker flying.
They're amazing, and scary like a Finn on a dead run in high winds.

We raced Snipes in the late 60s and early 70s in Michigan and later in
Denver. It was the second largest one-design class at the time
(following
the Sunfish), so it was easy to find a fleet and/or competition.


There's something to be said for big classes. Fun! But the glory days of
that kind of sailing are over... partly IMHO because American sailors
have vigorously resisted innovation. It's a telling sign that our most
popular classes are all many decades old and not updated much. The Hobie
16 and the Laser are the newest... and among the biggest. When trying to
promote the Johnson 18 we ran into all kinds of devious skullduggery...
and in some cases, vicious lies.

.... Not much interest in Snipes any
longer. In Michigan the Scows seem to be dominant, especially the MC.
Lots
of C and E fleets, too.

The Scow Sailor Mafia was one of the most active groups in murdering any
chance of a Johnson 18 class... ironic considering that a scow builder
invented it & went out of business trying to promote it. Scows are fun
but you'll notice that they're not self-bailing either. We had a great
time in Charleston earlier this year watching a big E-Scow regatta.

Scows don't self-bail, but they seldom capsize either. Again, like the 505,
they sit really high on their sides when down. And for some reason they
don't even ship much water if turtled and righted. I never liked the MC,
the last class boat we owned. It wasn't comfortable to sail, unlike a
Lightning, nor was it particularly fast or blessed with any particular
redeeming value, beyond the big, ubiquitous fleets in this area.

Max

Maxprop wrote:
I doubt if any boat moves quite as well in 5kts with spinnaker flying.
They're amazing, and scary like a Finn on a dead run in high winds.

I was thinking more like 2 kt true. Many's the time I've watched
Thistles chugging around the race course when it was glassy calm.

Although the early generation IACC boats designed for racing in San
Diego were great light air boats

Scows don't self-bail, but they seldom capsize either.

Hah! That's because scow sailors don't go out in 20+ or any real chop.
If you stick the bow under, they swamped and/or flip quite readily. If
you stall the teeny rudder while heeled enough to put the low boom in
the water, they flop over like a dog wanting it's tummy rubbed.

In general, I've found scows to be among the worst behaved high
performance sailboats... but then I wasn't brought up on them. I know a
lot of people who handle them with great ease & finesse, and are not in
the least troubled by their quirks.

I remember crewing in the 470 for one fellow who was a star scow sailor,
who would almost continually grumble "Dammit, this boat boat is hard to
steer" by which he really meant that it was all too easy to steer, he
was zig-zagging so hard I could barely keep my feet on the boat. He also
'way overreacted to upcoming waves. After most of a day, he got more in
the groove... I wondered how he felt about the scows after that
experience...



.... I never liked the MC,
the last class boat we owned. It wasn't comfortable to sail, unlike a
Lightning, nor was it particularly fast or blessed with any particular
redeeming value, beyond the big, ubiquitous fleets in this area.

I've been thinking about getting an MC to race but am less enthusiastic
about driving long distances to regattas than I used to be.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"DSK" wrote in message

Maxprop wrote:
I doubt if any boat moves quite as well in 5kts with spinnaker flying.
They're amazing, and scary like a Finn on a dead run in high winds.

I was thinking more like 2 kt true. Many's the time I've watched
Thistles chugging around the race course when it was glassy calm.

I think we cheated a lot. :-) Ooching and such were typical in Thistle
fleets. But your point is well taken--Thistles are slippery.

Although the early generation IACC boats designed for racing in San
Diego were great light air boats

Scows don't self-bail, but they seldom capsize either.

Hah! That's because scow sailors don't go out in 20+ or any real chop.
If you stick the bow under, they swamped and/or flip quite readily. If
you stall the teeny rudder while heeled enough to put the low boom in
the water, they flop over like a dog wanting it's tummy rubbed.

I used to race my MC in 20kts. or better, but always with an agile monster
crewman up front. Of course we sat back on the transom in such winds, and
planed like scalded cats. Fun.


In general, I've found scows to be among the worst behaved high
performance sailboats... but then I wasn't brought up on them. I know a
lot of people who handle them with great ease & finesse, and are not in
the least troubled by their quirks.

I've never been a great fan of scows, despite racing both MCs and Es. I've
always tended to go where the large, competitive fleets are. And in the
Midwest that's often scows.

I remember crewing in the 470 for one fellow who was a star scow sailor,
who would almost continually grumble "Dammit, this boat boat is hard to
steer" by which he really meant that it was all too easy to steer, he
was zig-zagging so hard I could barely keep my feet on the boat. He also
'way overreacted to upcoming waves. After most of a day, he got more in
the groove... I wondered how he felt about the scows after that
experience...

Some scows, such as the M-16, have ridiculously small twin rudders, while
others have larger central rudders and respond better. I would imagine
moving from such a boat to a 470 or 505 with their reponsive helms would be
akin to moving from a Ford one-ton to a Mini Cooper.

.... I never liked the MC,
the last class boat we owned. It wasn't comfortable to sail, unlike a
Lightning, nor was it particularly fast or blessed with any particular
redeeming value, beyond the big, ubiquitous fleets in this area.


I've been thinking about getting an MC to race but am less enthusiastic
about driving long distances to regattas than I used to be.

During our Snipe days we thought nothing of driving all weekend for a
five-race regatta. Today, however, I'd have to agree with you. If my local
YC fleet doesn't race it, I'm probably not interested. We have a Lightning
fleet nearby and have considered their Wednesday evening series, but that's
about as close to one-design racing as we've gotten in years.

Max

I was thinking more like 2 kt true. Many's the time I've watched
Thistles chugging around the race course when it was glassy calm.

Maxprop wrote:
I think we cheated a lot. :-) Ooching and such were typical in Thistle
fleets. But your point is well taken--Thistles are slippery.

Yes they are. A certain amount of rocking, pumping, and ooching is
legal. Common practice in most fleets, shucks even the better PHRF
racers are doing it nowadays.... but so far I haven't seen any boat do
it as fast as a Thistle.




I used to race my MC in 20kts. or better, but always with an agile monster
crewman up front. Of course we sat back on the transom in such winds, and
planed like scalded cats. Fun.

I bet so. I am tempted to look for an MC, but you say they are not
comfortable? How so? I'm also tempted to get a Megabyte but don't think
there is as much of a fleet.


I've never been a great fan of scows, despite racing both MCs and Es. I've
always tended to go where the large, competitive fleets are. And in the
Midwest that's often scows.

Yep. Can't swing a dead cat without hitting a E on most midwest lakes


During our Snipe days we thought nothing of driving all weekend for a
five-race regatta. Today, however, I'd have to agree with you.

It's partly that traffic has gotten so much worse, and partly that the
good old days of camping & partying on the lawn are mostly over. Even
the avid dinghy racing clubs are getting stuffy these days, it seems.



.... We have a Lightning
fleet nearby and have considered their Wednesday evening series, but that's
about as close to one-design racing as we've gotten in years.

Lightnings are fun boats, a bit of a crew-punisher but nothing near as
bad as a Thistle or a J-22. We've had some great times in ours.... my
wife felt that the Lightning fleets we ran around in were not friendly.
But they're nowhere near as bad as some of the arrogant butt-heads I
used to cross tacks with in 470s.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

They have rules about that Doug. Rule 42.2 to be
exact. I'm amazed at what some sailors think they
can get away with. Laser sailors have to be the
worst.
S.

"DSK" wrote in message
...
: I was thinking more like 2 kt true. Many's the
time I've watched
: Thistles chugging around the race course when
it was glassy calm.
:
: Maxprop wrote:
: I think we cheated a lot. :-) Ooching and
such were typical in Thistle
: fleets. But your point is well
taken--Thistles are slippery.
:
: Yes they are. A certain amount of rocking,
pumping, and ooching is
: legal. Common practice in most fleets, shucks
even the better PHRF
: racers are doing it nowadays.... but so far I
haven't seen any boat do
: it as fast as a Thistle.
:
:
:
:
: I used to race my MC in 20kts. or better, but
always with an agile monster
: crewman up front. Of course we sat back on
the transom in such winds, and
: planed like scalded cats. Fun.
:
: I bet so. I am tempted to look for an MC, but
you say they are not
: comfortable? How so? I'm also tempted to get a
Megabyte but don't think
: there is as much of a fleet.
:
:
: I've never been a great fan of scows, despite
racing both MCs and Es. I've
: always tended to go where the large,
competitive fleets are. And in the
: Midwest that's often scows.
:
: Yep. Can't swing a dead cat without hitting a E
on most midwest lakes
:
:
: During our Snipe days we thought nothing of
driving all weekend for a
: five-race regatta. Today, however, I'd have
to agree with you.
:
: It's partly that traffic has gotten so much
worse, and partly that the
: good old days of camping & partying on the lawn
are mostly over. Even
: the avid dinghy racing clubs are getting stuffy
these days, it seems.
:
:
:
: .... We have a Lightning
: fleet nearby and have considered their
Wednesday evening series, but that's
: about as close to one-design racing as we've g
otten in years.
:
: Lightnings are fun boats, a bit of a
crew-punisher but nothing near as
: bad as a Thistle or a J-22. We've had some great
times in ours.... my
: wife felt that the Lightning fleets we ran
around in were not friendly.
: But they're nowhere near as bad as some of the
arrogant butt-heads I
: used to cross tacks with in 470s.
:
: Fresh Breezes- Doug King
:

"DSK" wrote in message
...
Yes they are. A certain amount of rocking, pumping, and ooching is
legal. Common practice in most fleets, shucks even the better PHRF
racers are doing it nowadays.... but so far I haven't seen any boat do
it as fast as a Thistle.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

According to the latest copy I have of "The Rules of Racing", none of the
actions you describe are legal, in any amount.I would hate to think that the
folks we race against in PHRF cheat, though I'm sure it does happen, God
help you if you get caught.
John Cairns

"John Cairns" wrote in message

According to the latest copy I have of "The Rules of Racing", none of the
actions you describe are legal, in any amount.

Those same actions are usually specifically banned in the class racing rules
of most one-design classes as well. We got caught ooching in a total
drifter in which we knew we'd not make the 90 minute limit, so we took the
chance. Our DSQ was ultimately eliminated because the race was called on
time.

Max

.....A certain amount of rocking, pumping, and ooching is
legal. Common practice in most fleets....


John Cairns wrote:
According to the latest copy I have of "The Rules of Racing", none of the
actions you describe are legal, in any amount.I would hate to think that the
folks we race against in PHRF cheat, though I'm sure it does happen, God
help you if you get caught.

Why? In my experience, protest committees are getting increasingly lax
about enforcing the rules.

However, take a look at it in black & white
http://www.sailing.org/rrs2001/42Int..._2003Final.pdf

Scroll down to the interpretations- this is the real working part of the
rule. Note the you are still allowed to roll tack. You are still allowed
to scull, as long as you are "steering" when you do so. You are still
allowed to combine any roll with a pump. The rule hasn't changed much
since the old Rule 54 (which had a great video) but the wording has
gotten a lot more vague (and at the same time, for some reason, they
seem to have tried to make it sound more intimidating).

Skill at kinetic propulsion is a key in light air... if you have less
skill at it than your competitors, then your options are 1- lose graciously
2- kick up a fuss
3- go out and practice how to make the boat move on days when there is
NO wind at all...

I took option #3 (although I'm a bit out of practice nowadays) and when
a competitor was using what I felt was illegal propulsion, I'd do it
too... and pass them. That did more to keep the fleet honest than any
amount of protesting. It's a test of character, really. But it also is
healthy exercise and makes those drifters a bit less agonizing.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"DSK" wrote in message

I bet so. I am tempted to look for an MC, but you say they are not
comfortable? How so?

No more uncomfortable than any other scow. But a scow is a scow. You sit
barely above the water line with your knees in your face (the cockpit sole
is only about a foot below the gunnels), and the only time one is really
comfortable is when heeled well to leeward and sitting high on the weather
deck. When sitting low on the leeward deck to reduce wetted surface area by
raising the weather part of the hull out of the water, one feels like he's
about to get wet. And of course the bilge boards, when up, protrude into
the crew's seating area. One is almost tempted to sail solo rather than
listen to the crew bitch about this.


It's partly that traffic has gotten so much worse, and partly that the
good old days of camping & partying on the lawn are mostly over. Even
the avid dinghy racing clubs are getting stuffy these days, it seems.

We've found this to be the case as well. One particularly pretentious club
in Michigan, threw some of us out of their dining room one evening during a
Snipe regatta because we weren't dressed in our blue serge blazers and
Breton Red slacks. It would appear that some of these purported *yacht
clubs* take that moniker far too seriously. Most are just sailing clubs,
but don't realize it.

Lightnings are fun boats, a bit of a crew-punisher but nothing near as
bad as a Thistle or a J-22. We've had some great times in ours.... my
wife felt that the Lightning fleets we ran around in were not friendly.
But they're nowhere near as bad as some of the arrogant butt-heads I
used to cross tacks with in 470s.

One phenomenon we're seeing more now than ever before is a tendency of clubs
to eschew off lake sailors. For some arcane reason their memberships have
concluded that if one doesn't own lakefront property he is unfit to sail
with the YC. Of course this typically eliminates some of the best sailors
from those clubs, and the members simply can't understand why their seasonal
club champions can't compete worth **** at regional and national regattas.
Our local Lightning fleet isn't opposed to off-lakers, but does have it's
communal nose a bit too high in the air for our tastes. We'd love to sail
with them and clobber their big dogs, but probably won't be willing to put
up with the arrogance.

Max