Maxprop wrote:
We bought a new Snipe from Chubasco (a now-defunct company in El Cajon, CA)
years ago. It came with transom cut-outs and Elvstrom bailers as standard
equipment. I requested that the bailers not be installed, and the company
rep questioned my request. Ultimately I ended up installing two super max
units in the bilge pockets because after self-rescuing the bilge still held
around 10 gallons of water. 10 gal = 80lbs. About like taking someone's kid
along. At least on the Snipe the bailers were a necessary evil.

Well, that's a Snipe. I can assure you that there are plenty of
one-designs that the water drains out of completely and quickly.

In 1968 my father saw the light and bought our first fiberglass boat...
had only raced wooden boats up until then. The crew was the bailer. We
test sailed and rejected a number of boats and bought an almost-new
Flying Junior which was completely self-bailing. No Elvstrom bailers,
any water that got in ran right back out through the transom flaps.

What a revelation! Since then I have never had much desire to sail boats
that lugged a ton a water around in the bilge, and have limited patience
with poor in-betweeners like the Laser (or for that matter, the
Lightning). The Johnson 18 is fully self-bailing, and it's a good thing
too. As my wife says, "It's like jumping on a trampoline while four or
five people spray you with fire hoses. The water gushes in but
fortunately gushes back out again."

The last 470 that I raced seriously was a mid-1970s Cima (Spanish built)
that had a full double floor, and was totally self bailing. Not only did
it not ever have any water in it, the raised cockpit floor made it
faster to tack & easier for the crew to hook on. It was also built with
a grid that made the hull very stiff even after some years of hard
sailing... that boat, wherever it is, is probably still competitive.

The Snipe is a nice boat though, I can see racing in a class that isn't
such a great boat if you have an emotional attachment to it, such as I
have with Lightnings. But then I've been spoiled by sailing some really
nice boats

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"Scott Vernon" wrote...
Would shortening sail help? Can it be done on the 470?



Richard Randall wrote:
Good question. I don't know. I have to sail with a jib because it is
integrated with the forestay. But I was thinking about taking one of
my old mains and having reefs put in. Or maybe sailing without a main?
Has anyone done this? DSK, what do you think?

Well, if you've got an old main that you want to experiment with...

I'd suggest getting it re-cut to flatten it (although 470 sails are
already pretty flat IIRC) and take the roach off. No battens, a hollow
curve from boom to mast tip. That will take a LOT of heeling moment off
and it shouldn't affect the helm balance too much. Or you could cut the
leach hollow up to the top batten and put in a really stiff top batten,
that would keep some of the power but make it easier to handle. IMHO
that would be better than trying to put on jiffy or slab reefing.



I know I'm sacrificing speed here, but sailing singlehanded excludes
racing anyway. I don't mind going slow if I can go out more often.
It's just that when the wind picks up, I can't go out by myself.

No racing? Don't you have a handicap class locally? I race the Johnson
18 singehanded sometimes, setting the spinnaker is really fun and I
sometimes wish for a trapeze. Anyway the 470 is a nice boat for good
wind... we had our best races in 20+... so I can see why you want to go!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

On 21 Jul 2004 04:53:06 -0700, (Richard
Randall) wrote this crap:

Can I add ballast to my 470 so I can singlehand it more easily? If
so, what would be the best way to do it?


Add more people.






Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now!

Horass likely lots of his fellow boys on the boat.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Horvath" wrote in message
...
On 21 Jul 2004 04:53:06 -0700, (Richard
Randall) wrote this crap:

Can I add ballast to my 470 so I can singlehand it more easily? If
so, what would be the best way to do it?


Add more people.






Pathetic Earthlings! No one can save you now!

How about altering mast bend to allow the sail to twist open more easily
-might be easier than getting the sail recut?

Cheers



DSK wrote:

"Scott Vernon" wrote...

Would shortening sail help? Can it be done on the 470?




Richard Randall wrote:

Good question. I don't know. I have to sail with a jib because it is
integrated with the forestay. But I was thinking about taking one of
my old mains and having reefs put in. Or maybe sailing without a main?
Has anyone done this? DSK, what do you think?


Well, if you've got an old main that you want to experiment with...

I'd suggest getting it re-cut to flatten it (although 470 sails are
already pretty flat IIRC) and take the roach off. No battens, a hollow
curve from boom to mast tip. That will take a LOT of heeling moment off
and it shouldn't affect the helm balance too much. Or you could cut the
leach hollow up to the top batten and put in a really stiff top batten,
that would keep some of the power but make it easier to handle. IMHO
that would be better than trying to put on jiffy or slab reefing.



I know I'm sacrificing speed here, but sailing singlehanded excludes
racing anyway. I don't mind going slow if I can go out more often.
It's just that when the wind picks up, I can't go out by myself.


No racing? Don't you have a handicap class locally? I race the Johnson
18 singehanded sometimes, setting the spinnaker is really fun and I
sometimes wish for a trapeze. Anyway the 470 is a nice boat for good
wind... we had our best races in 20+... so I can see why you want to go!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"DSK" wrote in message

Well, that's a Snipe. I can assure you that there are plenty of
one-designs that the water drains out of completely and quickly.

Absolutely. A 505, for example, dumps its load right now after righting.
In fact it rides so high on its side that it takes almost no water aboard
when righted. A Snipe has too much rocker (sorry, canoe term) in its keel,
making for a low spot at the daggerboard trunk.

In 1968 my father saw the light and bought our first fiberglass boat...
had only raced wooden boats up until then. The crew was the bailer. We
test sailed and rejected a number of boats and bought an almost-new
Flying Junior which was completely self-bailing. No Elvstrom bailers,
any water that got in ran right back out through the transom flaps.

What a revelation! Since then I have never had much desire to sail boats
that lugged a ton a water around in the bilge,

The last dinghy I raced seriously was a Thistle. No deck, deep bilge
relative to the transom, and it didn't take much of a rail in the water to
ship about 100 gallons in a flash. Bailers are a must on Thistles. I
learned to hate that boat.

and have limited patience
with poor in-betweeners like the Laser (or for that matter, the
Lightning). The Johnson 18 is fully self-bailing, and it's a good thing
too. As my wife says, "It's like jumping on a trampoline while four or
five people spray you with fire hoses. The water gushes in but
fortunately gushes back out again."

The last 470 that I raced seriously was a mid-1970s Cima (Spanish built)
that had a full double floor, and was totally self bailing. Not only did
it not ever have any water in it, the raised cockpit floor made it
faster to tack & easier for the crew to hook on. It was also built with
a grid that made the hull very stiff even after some years of hard
sailing... that boat, wherever it is, is probably still competitive.

The Snipe is a nice boat though, I can see racing in a class that isn't
such a great boat if you have an emotional attachment to it, such as I
have with Lightnings. But then I've been spoiled by sailing some really
nice boats

We raced Snipes in the late 60s and early 70s in Michigan and later in
Denver. It was the second largest one-design class at the time (following
the Sunfish), so it was easy to find a fleet and/or competition. Our local
fleet at Diamond Lake, MI, had 35 active boats, and our invitational regatta
typically drew nearly 100 boats annually. But the Snipe's time is past.
There are many classes now with more interesting hulls and rigs, and today's
young sailors are driving those classes. Not much interest in Snipes any
longer. In Michigan the Scows seem to be dominant, especially the MC. Lots
of C and E fleets, too.

Max

Nav scribbled thusly:
How about altering mast bend to allow the sail to twist open more easily
-might be easier than getting the sail recut?

470s already have good control of mast bend, and a powerful vang to
allow as much or as little twist as you want. I assumed the original
poster had the skill & knowledge to make relatively simple tuning & trim
adjustments standard for heavy air.


OzOne wrote:
How about learning to sail single handed on the string?

A 470 isn't all that powerful and the leverage provided by the skipper
swinging is small compared to the crew on the string.

Can be done... that's what I was thinking of when suggesting a mast head
float device. It's a blast but all kinds of things can put you in the
drink suddenly.

DSK

Yeah, after righting a Thistle, you'll have about
800 gallons of water in it. Not much fun.
One question, why was the rail in the water if you
were racing seriously?
S.


"Maxprop" wrote in message
nk.net...
:
: The last dinghy I raced seriously was a Thistle.
No deck, deep bilge
: relative to the transom, and it didn't take much
of a rail in the water to
: ship about 100 gallons in a flash. Bailers are
a must on Thistles. I
: learned to hate that boat.
:

Maxprop wrote:
Absolutely. A 505, for example, dumps its load right now after righting.
In fact it rides so high on its side that it takes almost no water aboard
when righted.

And can be difficult to climb into from the water... one of the
less-often-told benefits of a completely open transom!

... A Snipe has too much rocker (sorry, canoe term) in its keel,
making for a low spot at the daggerboard trunk.

Rocker is a common term for all kinds of hulls. I don't think a Snipe a
good candidate for a full double bottom, completely self-bailing,
because of the low freeboard & the rocker you mention. A friend of mine
tried to make a Comet fully self-bailing and ended up with a board
boat... it was fun to sail but it wasn't what he intended!

The last dinghy I raced seriously was a Thistle. No deck, deep bilge
relative to the transom, and it didn't take much of a rail in the water to
ship about 100 gallons in a flash. Bailers are a must on Thistles. I
learned to hate that boat.

The thing I dislike about Thistles is the set of bruises you acquire in
sailing them. Plus droop-hiking is not healthy and I'm getting a bit
creaky (or maybe a bit too smart) to be into that kind of self-abuse.

Pony Express wrote:
Yeah, after righting a Thistle, you'll have about
800 gallons of water in it. Not much fun.

No no, 900 at least!

One question, why was the rail in the water if you
were racing seriously?

Really vigorous roll tacks? It can't be due to chop because nobody raes
Thistles in 3 knots of wind.

But the Thistle is a classic... a really pretty boat and wicked fast in
light air.


We raced Snipes in the late 60s and early 70s in Michigan and later in
Denver. It was the second largest one-design class at the time (following
the Sunfish), so it was easy to find a fleet and/or competition.

There's something to be said for big classes. Fun! But the glory days of
that kind of sailing are over... partly IMHO because American sailors
have vigorously resisted innovation. It's a telling sign that our most
popular classes are all many decades old and not updated much. The Hobie
16 and the Laser are the newest... and among the biggest. When trying to
promote the Johnson 18 we ran into all kinds of devious skullduggery...
and in some cases, vicious lies.

.... Not much interest in Snipes any
longer. In Michigan the Scows seem to be dominant, especially the MC. Lots
of C and E fleets, too.

The Scow Sailor Mafia was one of the most active groups in murdering any
chance of a Johnson 18 class... ironic considering that a scow builder
invented it & went out of business trying to promote it. Scows are fun
but you'll notice that they're not self-bailing either. We had a great
time in Charleston earlier this year watching a big E-Scow regatta.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"Pony Express" wrote in

Yeah, after righting a Thistle, you'll have about
800 gallons of water in it. Not much fun.
One question, why was the rail in the water if you
were racing seriously?

Good question. We were sailing with a crew of three in about 13-15kts. My
wife was on the jib, I was at the helm, and we had brought aboard a terrific
young kid as rail meat who wanted some racing experience. During one
particularly botched tack the kid lost his footing, fell onto the sole, and
when the sails filled I wasn't quick enough with the mainsheet to keep the
rail outta the drink, nor were my wife and I able to hold the boat flat. My
bad.

As an aside, while getting the rail in the water was not common on Thistles
when racing in normal conditions, we saw it happen often with higher winds.
Mark Reynolds, a sailmaker and top Thistle skipper, did it once during a
regatta in Ohio when he was about 200 ft. from taking the finish gun. Three
boats got around him as a result.

Max