Maxprop wrote:
We bought a new Snipe from Chubasco (a now-defunct company in El Cajon, CA)
years ago. It came with transom cut-outs and Elvstrom bailers as standard
equipment. I requested that the bailers not be installed, and the company
rep questioned my request. Ultimately I ended up installing two super max
units in the bilge pockets because after self-rescuing the bilge still held
around 10 gallons of water. 10 gal = 80lbs. About like taking someone's kid
along. At least on the Snipe the bailers were a necessary evil.

Well, that's a Snipe. I can assure you that there are plenty of
one-designs that the water drains out of completely and quickly.

In 1968 my father saw the light and bought our first fiberglass boat...
had only raced wooden boats up until then. The crew was the bailer. We
test sailed and rejected a number of boats and bought an almost-new
Flying Junior which was completely self-bailing. No Elvstrom bailers,
any water that got in ran right back out through the transom flaps.

What a revelation! Since then I have never had much desire to sail boats
that lugged a ton a water around in the bilge, and have limited patience
with poor in-betweeners like the Laser (or for that matter, the
Lightning). The Johnson 18 is fully self-bailing, and it's a good thing
too. As my wife says, "It's like jumping on a trampoline while four or
five people spray you with fire hoses. The water gushes in but
fortunately gushes back out again."

The last 470 that I raced seriously was a mid-1970s Cima (Spanish built)
that had a full double floor, and was totally self bailing. Not only did
it not ever have any water in it, the raised cockpit floor made it
faster to tack & easier for the crew to hook on. It was also built with
a grid that made the hull very stiff even after some years of hard
sailing... that boat, wherever it is, is probably still competitive.

The Snipe is a nice boat though, I can see racing in a class that isn't
such a great boat if you have an emotional attachment to it, such as I
have with Lightnings. But then I've been spoiled by sailing some really
nice boats

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"DSK" wrote in message

Well, that's a Snipe. I can assure you that there are plenty of
one-designs that the water drains out of completely and quickly.

Absolutely. A 505, for example, dumps its load right now after righting.
In fact it rides so high on its side that it takes almost no water aboard
when righted. A Snipe has too much rocker (sorry, canoe term) in its keel,
making for a low spot at the daggerboard trunk.

In 1968 my father saw the light and bought our first fiberglass boat...
had only raced wooden boats up until then. The crew was the bailer. We
test sailed and rejected a number of boats and bought an almost-new
Flying Junior which was completely self-bailing. No Elvstrom bailers,
any water that got in ran right back out through the transom flaps.

What a revelation! Since then I have never had much desire to sail boats
that lugged a ton a water around in the bilge,

The last dinghy I raced seriously was a Thistle. No deck, deep bilge
relative to the transom, and it didn't take much of a rail in the water to
ship about 100 gallons in a flash. Bailers are a must on Thistles. I
learned to hate that boat.

and have limited patience
with poor in-betweeners like the Laser (or for that matter, the
Lightning). The Johnson 18 is fully self-bailing, and it's a good thing
too. As my wife says, "It's like jumping on a trampoline while four or
five people spray you with fire hoses. The water gushes in but
fortunately gushes back out again."

The last 470 that I raced seriously was a mid-1970s Cima (Spanish built)
that had a full double floor, and was totally self bailing. Not only did
it not ever have any water in it, the raised cockpit floor made it
faster to tack & easier for the crew to hook on. It was also built with
a grid that made the hull very stiff even after some years of hard
sailing... that boat, wherever it is, is probably still competitive.

The Snipe is a nice boat though, I can see racing in a class that isn't
such a great boat if you have an emotional attachment to it, such as I
have with Lightnings. But then I've been spoiled by sailing some really
nice boats

We raced Snipes in the late 60s and early 70s in Michigan and later in
Denver. It was the second largest one-design class at the time (following
the Sunfish), so it was easy to find a fleet and/or competition. Our local
fleet at Diamond Lake, MI, had 35 active boats, and our invitational regatta
typically drew nearly 100 boats annually. But the Snipe's time is past.
There are many classes now with more interesting hulls and rigs, and today's
young sailors are driving those classes. Not much interest in Snipes any
longer. In Michigan the Scows seem to be dominant, especially the MC. Lots
of C and E fleets, too.

Max

Yeah, after righting a Thistle, you'll have about
800 gallons of water in it. Not much fun.
One question, why was the rail in the water if you
were racing seriously?
S.


"Maxprop" wrote in message
nk.net...
:
: The last dinghy I raced seriously was a Thistle.
No deck, deep bilge
: relative to the transom, and it didn't take much
of a rail in the water to
: ship about 100 gallons in a flash. Bailers are
a must on Thistles. I
: learned to hate that boat.
:

Maxprop wrote:
Absolutely. A 505, for example, dumps its load right now after righting.
In fact it rides so high on its side that it takes almost no water aboard
when righted.

And can be difficult to climb into from the water... one of the
less-often-told benefits of a completely open transom!

... A Snipe has too much rocker (sorry, canoe term) in its keel,
making for a low spot at the daggerboard trunk.

Rocker is a common term for all kinds of hulls. I don't think a Snipe a
good candidate for a full double bottom, completely self-bailing,
because of the low freeboard & the rocker you mention. A friend of mine
tried to make a Comet fully self-bailing and ended up with a board
boat... it was fun to sail but it wasn't what he intended!

The last dinghy I raced seriously was a Thistle. No deck, deep bilge
relative to the transom, and it didn't take much of a rail in the water to
ship about 100 gallons in a flash. Bailers are a must on Thistles. I
learned to hate that boat.

The thing I dislike about Thistles is the set of bruises you acquire in
sailing them. Plus droop-hiking is not healthy and I'm getting a bit
creaky (or maybe a bit too smart) to be into that kind of self-abuse.

Pony Express wrote:
Yeah, after righting a Thistle, you'll have about
800 gallons of water in it. Not much fun.

No no, 900 at least!

One question, why was the rail in the water if you
were racing seriously?

Really vigorous roll tacks? It can't be due to chop because nobody raes
Thistles in 3 knots of wind.

But the Thistle is a classic... a really pretty boat and wicked fast in
light air.


We raced Snipes in the late 60s and early 70s in Michigan and later in
Denver. It was the second largest one-design class at the time (following
the Sunfish), so it was easy to find a fleet and/or competition.

There's something to be said for big classes. Fun! But the glory days of
that kind of sailing are over... partly IMHO because American sailors
have vigorously resisted innovation. It's a telling sign that our most
popular classes are all many decades old and not updated much. The Hobie
16 and the Laser are the newest... and among the biggest. When trying to
promote the Johnson 18 we ran into all kinds of devious skullduggery...
and in some cases, vicious lies.

.... Not much interest in Snipes any
longer. In Michigan the Scows seem to be dominant, especially the MC. Lots
of C and E fleets, too.

The Scow Sailor Mafia was one of the most active groups in murdering any
chance of a Johnson 18 class... ironic considering that a scow builder
invented it & went out of business trying to promote it. Scows are fun
but you'll notice that they're not self-bailing either. We had a great
time in Charleston earlier this year watching a big E-Scow regatta.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"DSK" wrote in message


Maxprop wrote:
Absolutely. A 505, for example, dumps its load right now after
righting.
In fact it rides so high on its side that it takes almost no water
aboard
when righted.

And can be difficult to climb into from the water... one of the
less-often-told benefits of a completely open transom!

... A Snipe has too much rocker (sorry, canoe term) in its keel,
making for a low spot at the daggerboard trunk.

Rocker is a common term for all kinds of hulls. I don't think a Snipe a
good candidate for a full double bottom, completely self-bailing,
because of the low freeboard & the rocker you mention. A friend of mine
tried to make a Comet fully self-bailing and ended up with a board
boat... it was fun to sail but it wasn't what he intended!

I haven't seen any new Snipes lately, but when we left that class most of
the boats *were* built with a full double bottom. And yes, the sole was
high enough to put your knees in your face, it seemed.


The last dinghy I raced seriously was a Thistle. No deck, deep bilge
relative to the transom, and it didn't take much of a rail in the water
to
ship about 100 gallons in a flash. Bailers are a must on Thistles. I
learned to hate that boat.


The thing I dislike about Thistles is the set of bruises you acquire in
sailing them. Plus droop-hiking is not healthy and I'm getting a bit
creaky (or maybe a bit too smart) to be into that kind of self-abuse.

Thistle sailors suffer a particularly singular malady termed "rail tail"
from sitting on that 2" rail for prolonged periods. Our national newsletter
had ads for special shorts with padding specific to sailing/crewing
Thistles. I bought a pair and they really helped, but they also coined a
new term: "Thistle butt," referring to the way one looked while walking
around the marina in them.


Pony Express wrote:
Yeah, after righting a Thistle, you'll have about
800 gallons of water in it. Not much fun.

No no, 900 at least!

One question, why was the rail in the water if you
were racing seriously?

Really vigorous roll tacks? It can't be due to chop because nobody raes
Thistles in 3 knots of wind.

But the Thistle is a classic... a really pretty boat and wicked fast in
light air.

I doubt if any boat moves quite as well in 5kts with spinnaker flying.
They're amazing, and scary like a Finn on a dead run in high winds.

We raced Snipes in the late 60s and early 70s in Michigan and later in
Denver. It was the second largest one-design class at the time
(following
the Sunfish), so it was easy to find a fleet and/or competition.


There's something to be said for big classes. Fun! But the glory days of
that kind of sailing are over... partly IMHO because American sailors
have vigorously resisted innovation. It's a telling sign that our most
popular classes are all many decades old and not updated much. The Hobie
16 and the Laser are the newest... and among the biggest. When trying to
promote the Johnson 18 we ran into all kinds of devious skullduggery...
and in some cases, vicious lies.

.... Not much interest in Snipes any
longer. In Michigan the Scows seem to be dominant, especially the MC.
Lots
of C and E fleets, too.

The Scow Sailor Mafia was one of the most active groups in murdering any
chance of a Johnson 18 class... ironic considering that a scow builder
invented it & went out of business trying to promote it. Scows are fun
but you'll notice that they're not self-bailing either. We had a great
time in Charleston earlier this year watching a big E-Scow regatta.

Scows don't self-bail, but they seldom capsize either. Again, like the 505,
they sit really high on their sides when down. And for some reason they
don't even ship much water if turtled and righted. I never liked the MC,
the last class boat we owned. It wasn't comfortable to sail, unlike a
Lightning, nor was it particularly fast or blessed with any particular
redeeming value, beyond the big, ubiquitous fleets in this area.

Max

Maxprop wrote:
I doubt if any boat moves quite as well in 5kts with spinnaker flying.
They're amazing, and scary like a Finn on a dead run in high winds.

I was thinking more like 2 kt true. Many's the time I've watched
Thistles chugging around the race course when it was glassy calm.

Although the early generation IACC boats designed for racing in San
Diego were great light air boats

Scows don't self-bail, but they seldom capsize either.

Hah! That's because scow sailors don't go out in 20+ or any real chop.
If you stick the bow under, they swamped and/or flip quite readily. If
you stall the teeny rudder while heeled enough to put the low boom in
the water, they flop over like a dog wanting it's tummy rubbed.

In general, I've found scows to be among the worst behaved high
performance sailboats... but then I wasn't brought up on them. I know a
lot of people who handle them with great ease & finesse, and are not in
the least troubled by their quirks.

I remember crewing in the 470 for one fellow who was a star scow sailor,
who would almost continually grumble "Dammit, this boat boat is hard to
steer" by which he really meant that it was all too easy to steer, he
was zig-zagging so hard I could barely keep my feet on the boat. He also
'way overreacted to upcoming waves. After most of a day, he got more in
the groove... I wondered how he felt about the scows after that
experience...



.... I never liked the MC,
the last class boat we owned. It wasn't comfortable to sail, unlike a
Lightning, nor was it particularly fast or blessed with any particular
redeeming value, beyond the big, ubiquitous fleets in this area.

I've been thinking about getting an MC to race but am less enthusiastic
about driving long distances to regattas than I used to be.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"DSK" wrote in message

Maxprop wrote:
I doubt if any boat moves quite as well in 5kts with spinnaker flying.
They're amazing, and scary like a Finn on a dead run in high winds.

I was thinking more like 2 kt true. Many's the time I've watched
Thistles chugging around the race course when it was glassy calm.

I think we cheated a lot. :-) Ooching and such were typical in Thistle
fleets. But your point is well taken--Thistles are slippery.

Although the early generation IACC boats designed for racing in San
Diego were great light air boats

Scows don't self-bail, but they seldom capsize either.

Hah! That's because scow sailors don't go out in 20+ or any real chop.
If you stick the bow under, they swamped and/or flip quite readily. If
you stall the teeny rudder while heeled enough to put the low boom in
the water, they flop over like a dog wanting it's tummy rubbed.

I used to race my MC in 20kts. or better, but always with an agile monster
crewman up front. Of course we sat back on the transom in such winds, and
planed like scalded cats. Fun.


In general, I've found scows to be among the worst behaved high
performance sailboats... but then I wasn't brought up on them. I know a
lot of people who handle them with great ease & finesse, and are not in
the least troubled by their quirks.

I've never been a great fan of scows, despite racing both MCs and Es. I've
always tended to go where the large, competitive fleets are. And in the
Midwest that's often scows.

I remember crewing in the 470 for one fellow who was a star scow sailor,
who would almost continually grumble "Dammit, this boat boat is hard to
steer" by which he really meant that it was all too easy to steer, he
was zig-zagging so hard I could barely keep my feet on the boat. He also
'way overreacted to upcoming waves. After most of a day, he got more in
the groove... I wondered how he felt about the scows after that
experience...

Some scows, such as the M-16, have ridiculously small twin rudders, while
others have larger central rudders and respond better. I would imagine
moving from such a boat to a 470 or 505 with their reponsive helms would be
akin to moving from a Ford one-ton to a Mini Cooper.

.... I never liked the MC,
the last class boat we owned. It wasn't comfortable to sail, unlike a
Lightning, nor was it particularly fast or blessed with any particular
redeeming value, beyond the big, ubiquitous fleets in this area.


I've been thinking about getting an MC to race but am less enthusiastic
about driving long distances to regattas than I used to be.

During our Snipe days we thought nothing of driving all weekend for a
five-race regatta. Today, however, I'd have to agree with you. If my local
YC fleet doesn't race it, I'm probably not interested. We have a Lightning
fleet nearby and have considered their Wednesday evening series, but that's
about as close to one-design racing as we've gotten in years.

Max

"Pony Express" wrote in

Yeah, after righting a Thistle, you'll have about
800 gallons of water in it. Not much fun.
One question, why was the rail in the water if you
were racing seriously?

Good question. We were sailing with a crew of three in about 13-15kts. My
wife was on the jib, I was at the helm, and we had brought aboard a terrific
young kid as rail meat who wanted some racing experience. During one
particularly botched tack the kid lost his footing, fell onto the sole, and
when the sails filled I wasn't quick enough with the mainsheet to keep the
rail outta the drink, nor were my wife and I able to hold the boat flat. My
bad.

As an aside, while getting the rail in the water was not common on Thistles
when racing in normal conditions, we saw it happen often with higher winds.
Mark Reynolds, a sailmaker and top Thistle skipper, did it once during a
regatta in Ohio when he was about 200 ft. from taking the finish gun. Three
boats got around him as a result.

Max