Would shortening sail help? Can it be done on the 470?

Scotty

"DSK" wrote in message
.. .
Richard Randall wrote:
Can I add ballast to my 470 so I can singlehand it more easily?

You can definitely add ballast, I dunno how effective it will be at
making it easier to singlehand. The most effect it would probably have
would be to make it a lot slower, harder to launch & retrieve,
overstress the CB pivot & trunk, and *might* make it slower to turtle
once you've capsized.

In short, as an old 470 sailor, I think it's a bad idea.

... If
so, what would be the best way to do it?

If turtling is the problem, the best answer is to tie a gallon jug to
the mainsail headboard. If you sail in rough water, either tie two, or
else get a small laundry bag and put a beach ball in it, and fasten that
there. The added buoyancy at the mast tip will keep the boat from
turtling and you can right it at leisure.

The biggest problem singlehanding a 470 that I can see is keeping all
the control lines from getting hopelessly tangled. The boat is the
original "spaghetti factory."

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Scott Vernon wrote:
Would shortening sail help? Can it be done on the 470?

Not as usually rigged. It's got a low boom and a bendy mast. You could
put a jiffy reef on it, but it would be difficult to tie in while underway.


Maxprop wrote:
I think the *original* spaghetti factory was the Flying Dutchman.

Ah yes. I stand corrected.


... One sailor in our fleet actually
got dragged behind his FD after falling overboard with lines wrapped around
one of his legs.

That's not such an unusal trick. I've done that on a number of boats
including a JY-15, not really much spaghetti on that one.


And we always seemed to have lines trailing out the
Elvstrom bailers.

Yeah, that's one reason why I hate Elvstrom bailers. They're a great
example of 1950s technology; better than heavy boats with no flotation
and no self-bailers but when you could have a fully self-rescuing, dry
cockpit, open transom, whatever... why???


.... I've heard 470s described as mini-FDs on occasion, I
think more for the mess of lines in the cockpit rather than any similarity
in appearance or performance.

I think the 470 is a little more power per pound, but the Dutchman is a
faster more powerful boat overall. Beautiful, too. Both FD & 470 could
benefit from an update... square head main, double trap, big A-sail...
yee haw!

... The Tempest is another spaghetti factory.

I never liked the Tempest that much. It's a nice boat but it's really a
big 2-person show-off machine. The only benefit it gains from the size
& the keel is that it's better for open water & rougher conditions...
except that they're all old and creaky at this point. Give me a Star or
a Johnson 18 (wait a minute... already got one) or a 505... or a 470 for
that matter!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"DSK" wrote in message

Yeah, that's one reason why I hate Elvstrom bailers. They're a great
example of 1950s technology; better than heavy boats with no flotation
and no self-bailers but when you could have a fully self-rescuing, dry
cockpit, open transom, whatever... why???

We bought a new Snipe from Chubasco (a now-defunct company in El Cajon, CA)
years ago. It came with transom cut-outs and Elvstrom bailers as standard
equipment. I requested that the bailers not be installed, and the company
rep questioned my request. Ultimately I ended up installing two super max
units in the bilge pockets because after self-rescuing the bilge still held
around 10 gallons of water. 10 gal = 80lbs. About like taking someone's kid
along. At least on the Snipe the bailers were a necessary evil.

Max

Maxprop wrote:
We bought a new Snipe from Chubasco (a now-defunct company in El Cajon, CA)
years ago. It came with transom cut-outs and Elvstrom bailers as standard
equipment. I requested that the bailers not be installed, and the company
rep questioned my request. Ultimately I ended up installing two super max
units in the bilge pockets because after self-rescuing the bilge still held
around 10 gallons of water. 10 gal = 80lbs. About like taking someone's kid
along. At least on the Snipe the bailers were a necessary evil.

Well, that's a Snipe. I can assure you that there are plenty of
one-designs that the water drains out of completely and quickly.

In 1968 my father saw the light and bought our first fiberglass boat...
had only raced wooden boats up until then. The crew was the bailer. We
test sailed and rejected a number of boats and bought an almost-new
Flying Junior which was completely self-bailing. No Elvstrom bailers,
any water that got in ran right back out through the transom flaps.

What a revelation! Since then I have never had much desire to sail boats
that lugged a ton a water around in the bilge, and have limited patience
with poor in-betweeners like the Laser (or for that matter, the
Lightning). The Johnson 18 is fully self-bailing, and it's a good thing
too. As my wife says, "It's like jumping on a trampoline while four or
five people spray you with fire hoses. The water gushes in but
fortunately gushes back out again."

The last 470 that I raced seriously was a mid-1970s Cima (Spanish built)
that had a full double floor, and was totally self bailing. Not only did
it not ever have any water in it, the raised cockpit floor made it
faster to tack & easier for the crew to hook on. It was also built with
a grid that made the hull very stiff even after some years of hard
sailing... that boat, wherever it is, is probably still competitive.

The Snipe is a nice boat though, I can see racing in a class that isn't
such a great boat if you have an emotional attachment to it, such as I
have with Lightnings. But then I've been spoiled by sailing some really
nice boats

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"DSK" wrote in message

Well, that's a Snipe. I can assure you that there are plenty of
one-designs that the water drains out of completely and quickly.

Absolutely. A 505, for example, dumps its load right now after righting.
In fact it rides so high on its side that it takes almost no water aboard
when righted. A Snipe has too much rocker (sorry, canoe term) in its keel,
making for a low spot at the daggerboard trunk.

In 1968 my father saw the light and bought our first fiberglass boat...
had only raced wooden boats up until then. The crew was the bailer. We
test sailed and rejected a number of boats and bought an almost-new
Flying Junior which was completely self-bailing. No Elvstrom bailers,
any water that got in ran right back out through the transom flaps.

What a revelation! Since then I have never had much desire to sail boats
that lugged a ton a water around in the bilge,

The last dinghy I raced seriously was a Thistle. No deck, deep bilge
relative to the transom, and it didn't take much of a rail in the water to
ship about 100 gallons in a flash. Bailers are a must on Thistles. I
learned to hate that boat.

and have limited patience
with poor in-betweeners like the Laser (or for that matter, the
Lightning). The Johnson 18 is fully self-bailing, and it's a good thing
too. As my wife says, "It's like jumping on a trampoline while four or
five people spray you with fire hoses. The water gushes in but
fortunately gushes back out again."

The last 470 that I raced seriously was a mid-1970s Cima (Spanish built)
that had a full double floor, and was totally self bailing. Not only did
it not ever have any water in it, the raised cockpit floor made it
faster to tack & easier for the crew to hook on. It was also built with
a grid that made the hull very stiff even after some years of hard
sailing... that boat, wherever it is, is probably still competitive.

The Snipe is a nice boat though, I can see racing in a class that isn't
such a great boat if you have an emotional attachment to it, such as I
have with Lightnings. But then I've been spoiled by sailing some really
nice boats

We raced Snipes in the late 60s and early 70s in Michigan and later in
Denver. It was the second largest one-design class at the time (following
the Sunfish), so it was easy to find a fleet and/or competition. Our local
fleet at Diamond Lake, MI, had 35 active boats, and our invitational regatta
typically drew nearly 100 boats annually. But the Snipe's time is past.
There are many classes now with more interesting hulls and rigs, and today's
young sailors are driving those classes. Not much interest in Snipes any
longer. In Michigan the Scows seem to be dominant, especially the MC. Lots
of C and E fleets, too.

Max

Yeah, after righting a Thistle, you'll have about
800 gallons of water in it. Not much fun.
One question, why was the rail in the water if you
were racing seriously?
S.


"Maxprop" wrote in message
nk.net...
:
: The last dinghy I raced seriously was a Thistle.
No deck, deep bilge
: relative to the transom, and it didn't take much
of a rail in the water to
: ship about 100 gallons in a flash. Bailers are
a must on Thistles. I
: learned to hate that boat.
:

Maxprop wrote:
Absolutely. A 505, for example, dumps its load right now after righting.
In fact it rides so high on its side that it takes almost no water aboard
when righted.

And can be difficult to climb into from the water... one of the
less-often-told benefits of a completely open transom!

... A Snipe has too much rocker (sorry, canoe term) in its keel,
making for a low spot at the daggerboard trunk.

Rocker is a common term for all kinds of hulls. I don't think a Snipe a
good candidate for a full double bottom, completely self-bailing,
because of the low freeboard & the rocker you mention. A friend of mine
tried to make a Comet fully self-bailing and ended up with a board
boat... it was fun to sail but it wasn't what he intended!

The last dinghy I raced seriously was a Thistle. No deck, deep bilge
relative to the transom, and it didn't take much of a rail in the water to
ship about 100 gallons in a flash. Bailers are a must on Thistles. I
learned to hate that boat.

The thing I dislike about Thistles is the set of bruises you acquire in
sailing them. Plus droop-hiking is not healthy and I'm getting a bit
creaky (or maybe a bit too smart) to be into that kind of self-abuse.

Pony Express wrote:
Yeah, after righting a Thistle, you'll have about
800 gallons of water in it. Not much fun.

No no, 900 at least!

One question, why was the rail in the water if you
were racing seriously?

Really vigorous roll tacks? It can't be due to chop because nobody raes
Thistles in 3 knots of wind.

But the Thistle is a classic... a really pretty boat and wicked fast in
light air.


We raced Snipes in the late 60s and early 70s in Michigan and later in
Denver. It was the second largest one-design class at the time (following
the Sunfish), so it was easy to find a fleet and/or competition.

There's something to be said for big classes. Fun! But the glory days of
that kind of sailing are over... partly IMHO because American sailors
have vigorously resisted innovation. It's a telling sign that our most
popular classes are all many decades old and not updated much. The Hobie
16 and the Laser are the newest... and among the biggest. When trying to
promote the Johnson 18 we ran into all kinds of devious skullduggery...
and in some cases, vicious lies.

.... Not much interest in Snipes any
longer. In Michigan the Scows seem to be dominant, especially the MC. Lots
of C and E fleets, too.

The Scow Sailor Mafia was one of the most active groups in murdering any
chance of a Johnson 18 class... ironic considering that a scow builder
invented it & went out of business trying to promote it. Scows are fun
but you'll notice that they're not self-bailing either. We had a great
time in Charleston earlier this year watching a big E-Scow regatta.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"Pony Express" wrote in

Yeah, after righting a Thistle, you'll have about
800 gallons of water in it. Not much fun.
One question, why was the rail in the water if you
were racing seriously?

Good question. We were sailing with a crew of three in about 13-15kts. My
wife was on the jib, I was at the helm, and we had brought aboard a terrific
young kid as rail meat who wanted some racing experience. During one
particularly botched tack the kid lost his footing, fell onto the sole, and
when the sails filled I wasn't quick enough with the mainsheet to keep the
rail outta the drink, nor were my wife and I able to hold the boat flat. My
bad.

As an aside, while getting the rail in the water was not common on Thistles
when racing in normal conditions, we saw it happen often with higher winds.
Mark Reynolds, a sailmaker and top Thistle skipper, did it once during a
regatta in Ohio when he was about 200 ft. from taking the finish gun. Three
boats got around him as a result.

Max

"Scott Vernon" wrote in message

Would shortening sail help? Can it be done on the 470?

Racing dinghies, as a general rule, have no provision for shortening sail,
either main or jib. Many sailors of these boats simply carry a huge luff in
the main to ease the heeling force. I've raced Snipes in 15kts. which ain't
fun, but letting the main luff to the forward edge of the battens pretty
much does the trick.

Max

Good question. I don't know. I have to sail with a jib because it is
integrated with the forestay. But I was thinking about taking one of
my old mains and having reefs put in. Or maybe sailing without a main?
Has anyone done this? DSK, what do you think?

I know I'm sacrificing speed here, but sailing singlehanded excludes
racing anyway. I don't mind going slow if I can go out more often.
It's just that when the wind picks up, I can't go out by myself.



"Scott Vernon" wrote in message ...
Would shortening sail help? Can it be done on the 470?

Scotty

"DSK" wrote in message
.. .
Richard Randall wrote:
Can I add ballast to my 470 so I can singlehand it more easily?

You can definitely add ballast, I dunno how effective it will be at
making it easier to singlehand. The most effect it would probably have
would be to make it a lot slower, harder to launch & retrieve,
overstress the CB pivot & trunk, and *might* make it slower to turtle
once you've capsized.

In short, as an old 470 sailor, I think it's a bad idea.

... If
so, what would be the best way to do it?

If turtling is the problem, the best answer is to tie a gallon jug to
the mainsail headboard. If you sail in rough water, either tie two, or
else get a small laundry bag and put a beach ball in it, and fasten that
there. The added buoyancy at the mast tip will keep the boat from
turtling and you can right it at leisure.

The biggest problem singlehanding a 470 that I can see is keeping all
the control lines from getting hopelessly tangled. The boat is the
original "spaghetti factory."

Fresh Breezes- Doug King