Whoa There Race Boy....
 

Heh Loco..... slap some sun block on that thin skin..... here is a
comparision between my Crab Crusher and your "Racer/Cruiser"!!

Ha Ha Ha Ha.....

Performance Comparison LOA Express 30 30

Nordica 30 29.49

LWL Express 30 24.5

Nordica 30 25

Beam Express 30 10

Nordica 30 9.77

Displacement Express 30 8200

Nordica 30 10220

Sail Area Express 30 472

Nordica 30 502

Capsize Ratio Express 30 1.98

Nordica 30 1.8

Hull Speed Express 30 6.63

Nordica 30 6.7

Sail Area to Displacement Express 30 18.57

Nordica 30 17.06

Displacement to LWL Express 30 249

Nordica 30 292

LWL to Beam Express 30 2.45

Nordica 30 2.56

Motion Comfort Express 30 22.39

Nordica 30 28.57

Pounds/Inch Express 30 875

Nordica 30 873

Whoa There Race Boy....
 

So what's your point? The real difference is my boat goes out. Crab crusher
drivers just hang out at the marina talking about their someday cruise to
Tahiti with the new steering vane driving.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"No shirt, no skirt, full service"

Whoa There Race Boy....
 

Hey "Mooron of the North"

Take a look at the total weigth, 2000#!! That my "Artic Friend" is what
makes your Nordic a Crab Cruncher and the Express a R/C

Interesting Post though.

Ole Thom

Whoa There Race Boy....
 

Marina??? Marina!!!!!

Bwahahahahahahahaa..... my boat is to a mooring. I don't do 'marina' there
ducky. Do try and pay attention would you.

So you consider sailing around a set of buoys 3 times a week for an hour at
a time as "going out"??
That's just so lame..... especially seeing that you spend inordinately more
time talking sail than actually sailing.

My Crab Crusher can kick your boat's ass!
Overproof is not only faster than your round the buoy fin keeled scow...
it's built better as well.

Marina!! Bwahahahahahaaa.... what a Dock-Side Diva you turned out to be.

Come on Loco..... you have to have better ammo than this... or have I taxed
your wit in so short a time? ;-)

CM



"SAIL LOCO" wrote in message
...
| So what's your point? The real difference is my boat goes out. Crab
crusher
| drivers just hang out at the marina talking about their someday cruise to
| Tahiti with the new steering vane driving.
| S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
| "No shirt, no skirt, full service"

Whoa There Race Boy....
 

Yeah Thom... I'm just trying to rattle Loco's chain.... ;-)

At 292..... I'm at the border of Heavy Cruiser Class.

Fortunately for me my boat doesn't read numbers well and continues to
surpass the sum of it's numerical values. Last Saturday I passed an Irwin 38
and a Hunter 33. It takes at least 35+ feet of sail boat to offer me any
competition downwind.

CM


"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
| Hey "Mooron of the North"
|
| Take a look at the total weigth, 2000#!! That my "Artic Friend" is what
| makes your Nordic a Crab Cruncher and the Express a R/C
|
| Interesting Post though.
|
| Ole Thom
|

Whoa There Race Boy....
 

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
...
Yeah Thom... I'm just trying to rattle Loco's chain.... ;-)

At 292..... I'm at the border of Heavy Cruiser Class.

Fortunately for me my boat doesn't read numbers well and continues to
surpass the sum of it's numerical values. Last Saturday I passed an Irwin
38
and a Hunter 33. It takes at least 35+ feet of sail boat to offer me any
competition downwind.


Rubbish! My 32 footer would thrash you on any point of sail!

You'd probably stain your pants if you found yourself doing more than 12 kts
downwind.

In my humble experience, the owners of crab crushers are "all mouth and no
trousers". They choose their boats on the basis that they are incredibly
seaworthy - and then they refuse to set sail in anything more than a F4.
They never see hull speed because they are afraid to venture out in the
conditions that would enable them to do hull speed.

I, on the other hand, am the proud possessor of a boat that really *is*
able to exceed hull speed.


Regards


Donal
--

Whoa There Race Boy....
 

"Donal" wrote in message

| Rubbish! My 32 footer would thrash you on any point of sail!

Bah!... the only part of that statement worth retaining is the "My 32
footer","thrash" & "Rubbish"
Upwind you might have a chance of keeping up....downwind you'd be lost far
behind me.


|
| You'd probably stain your pants if you found yourself doing more than 12
kts
| downwind.

13kts sustained average over 2 miles..... stick that in your French Fried
Fin Keeler!

|
| In my humble experience, the owners of crab crushers are "all mouth and no
| trousers". They choose their boats on the basis that they are incredibly
| seaworthy - and then they refuse to set sail in anything more than a F4.
| They never see hull speed because they are afraid to venture out in the
| conditions that would enable them to do hull speed.

This is obviously a situation unique to the British.... my findings
illustrate that Fin Keelers never venture far from the harbour and generally
loose not only their bravado but their bowel content when faced with a real
ocean.
|
| I, on the other hand, am the proud possessor of a boat that really *is*
| able to exceed hull speed.

So can most margarine containers..... when push comes to shove they flip &
fold faster than superman on laundry day!

Fin Keelers..... Pah!

CM

Whoa There Race Boy....
 

"Capt. Mooron" wrote ...
Last Saturday I passed an Irwin 38
and a Hunter 33.


Was the Irwin sailing upwind under bare poles?


It takes at least 35kts of wind to offer me any
movement downwind.

CM

Whoa There Race Boy....
 

Aw Crap... I've offended... another thin skinned finicky fin keeler! :-D

CM
wrote in message
...
| On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 17:02:20 -0300, "Capt. Mooron"
wrote:
|
| Fortunately for me, my boat doesn't read numbers any better than I do,l
and continues to
| surpass the sum of it's numerical values. Last Saturday I passed an Irwin
38
| and a Hunter 33 in their slips. It takes at least 35+ feet of bull**** to
better my own
| production
|
| CM
|
|

Whoa There Race Boy....
 

"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...

| Was the Irwin sailing upwind under bare poles?

No... but it may as well have been considering the speed it was making going
downwind.

Those things look almost like a Hunter... but they seem much better built!

CM

Whoa There Race Boy....
 

Last Saturday I passed an Irwin 38
and a Hunter 33.

What an accomplishment.


It takes at least 35+ feet of sail boat to offer me any competition
downwind.

That's a laugh. Downwind in light air your full keel tank will need the
motor and in heavy air everyone else will be up on plane. Go away.
LOL.............
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"No shirt, no skirt, full service"

Whoa There Race Boy....
 

In my humble experience, the owners of crab crushers are "all mouth and no
trousers". They choose their boats on the basis that they are incredibly
seaworthy

And like I said, they are all dying to corner anyone walking by and tell them
about their planed trip to Tahiti. Fact is they all wind up just plain dying.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"No shirt, no skirt, full service"

Whoa There Race Boy....
 

Hey mooron, everyone knows that a full keel tank like yours is slow as ****
downwind. Too much wetted surface. They don't go upwind very well either.
The only thing they are good at is tracking downwind which makes it easy on the
autopilot.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"No shirt, no skirt, full service"

Whoa There Race Boy....
 

wrote in message

| Hardly. You don't have enough ammunition and your vantage point is far too
low.

Bill please.... isn't sailing a fin keeler punishment enough?!

Heh... let's do a comparison on both vessels here okay?

I've helmed a C&C27.... it's a very quick boat. It even won the
Commissioner's Cup in Great Slave Lake. The year I didn't race.... ;-)

I am assuming a Mark V.... and you know my current confusion regarding model
years.

Performance Comparison LOA C&C 27 Mark V 26.8

Nordica 30 29.49

LWL C&C 27 Mark V 23

Nordica 30 25

Beam C&C 27 Mark V 9.3

Nordica 30 9.77

Displacement C&C 27 Mark V 4720

Nordica 30 10220

Sail Area C&C 27 Mark V 342.85

Nordica 30 502

Capsize Ratio C&C 27 Mark V 2.22

Nordica 30 1.8

Hull Speed C&C 27 Mark V 6.43

Nordica 30 6.7

Sail Area to Displacement C&C 27 Mark V 19.5

Nordica 30 17.06

Displacement to LWL C&C 27 Mark V 173

Nordica 30 292

LWL to Beam C&C 27 Mark V 2.47

Nordica 30 2.56

Motion Comfort C&C 27 Mark V 15.38

Nordica 30 28.57

Pounds/Inch C&C 27 Mark V 764

Nordica 30 873

Whoa There Race Boy....
 

"SAIL LOCO" wrote in message

| That's a laugh. Downwind in light air your full keel tank will need the
| motor and in heavy air everyone else will be up on plane. Go away.
| LOL.............

Oh.... heck here Loco go see for yourself.
Have a look at the 'Sail By' shot....

http://community.webshots.com/album/69840614isQSVe

....are you always this much of a whiner???
It must be the Club Racer in you! ;-)

BTW - I installed my auxiliary in 1995... it has 560 some odd hours on it.
[and if you start whining about the actual hours.. see the archives]

CM

Whoa There Race Boy....
 

wrote in message

| Meanwhile, you will also note that my boat's PHRF is generally grouped in
with
| boats with 3 or 4 more feet of waterline than my boat. My PHRF is 168,
what's
| yours? Do they rate you in with school busses and dumptrucks?

More like a train.... I raced with a PHRF of 170.

CM

Whoa There Race Boy....
 

wrote in message
| So, basically, you are confirming that my boat will effortlessly sail
circles
| around your boat, especially in winds under 15 knots, (which means most of
the
| time) without harming any defenseless crabs.

As long as you stay in the bay and I'm towing my Dory... you might have a
chance!
Not much of one... but a chance nonetheless.

CM

Whoa There Race Boy....
 

Oh.... heck here Loco go see for yourself.
Have a look at the 'Sail By' shot....

http://community.webshots.com/album/69840614isQSVe

LOL. I see a boat with a full chute and no bow wave. Yea that tank is fast
downwind.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"No shirt, no skirt, full service"

Whoa There Race Boy....
 

"SAIL LOCO" wrote in message

| LOL. I see a boat with a full chute and no bow wave. Yea that tank is
fast
| downwind.

Oh so now you lay claim to a bow wave in light air???
What's next... claims of a water ballet in 30kts??

Bwahahahahahahaaaa

CM

Whoa There Race Boy....
 

Oh so now you lay claim to a bow wave in light air???.

Damn right. If my chute is up and drawing, like the one in the photo your so
proud of, my boat will have a little bow wave and we would be moving. The only
time my boat is not moving is when the chute is hanging.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"No shirt, no skirt, full service"

Whoa There Race Boy....
 

wrote


Meanwhile, you will also note that my boat's PHRF is generally grouped in
with
boats with 3 or 4 more feet of waterline than my boat. My PHRF is 168,
what's
yours?

Seidelmann 30 phrf = 162

SV

Whoa There Race Boy....
 

"Capt. Mooron" wrote

More like a train.... I raced with a PHRF of 170.

That's not too bad for a crab crusher. Seidelmann 30 PHRF is 162.

SV

Whoa There Race Boy....
 

A BOW WAVE!!!! Come on Loco..... don't expect us to swallow that line of
hogwash. I've never seen more than a ripple from any vessel downwind in
light air.
Tell us how fast you sail with a chute in 5 kts of wind???

CM


"SAIL LOCO" wrote in message
...
| Oh so now you lay claim to a bow wave in light air???.
|
| Damn right. If my chute is up and drawing, like the one in the photo your
so
| proud of, my boat will have a little bow wave and we would be moving. The
only
| time my boat is not moving is when the chute is hanging.
| S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
| "No shirt, no skirt, full service"

Whoa There Race Boy....
 

Capt. Mooron wrote:
A BOW WAVE!!!! Come on Loco..... don't expect us to swallow that line of
hogwash. I've never seen more than a ripple from any vessel downwind in
light air.

You need to get out more.

Tell us how fast you sail with a chute in 5 kts of wind???

Probably somewhere around 4 knots. I know of boats that can sail at 5.5
or better, with a spinnaker, in 5 knots of true wind (hint... think
apparent wind).

Fresh Breezes... really!
Doug King

Whoa There Race Boy....
 

"DSK" wrote in message
| Probably somewhere around 4 knots. I know of boats that can sail at 5.5
| or better, with a spinnaker, in 5 knots of true wind (hint... think
| apparent wind).

That must be one of those new radical Mac26M designs..... I understand they
can exceed the wind speed...apparent or not.

Nonetheless..... 5kts speed in 5 knots wind on an Express 30?? Bow Wave??
Think again. Maybe an International 14.

CM

Whoa There Race Boy....
 

"DSK" wrote
| ... I know of boats that can sail at 5.5
| or better, with a spinnaker, in 5 knots of true wind (hint... think
| apparent wind).


Capt. Mooron wrote:
That must be one of those new radical Mac26M designs..... I understand they
can exceed the wind speed...apparent or not.

Yeah, but the engine running kinda spoils that nice quiet peaceful effect.


Nonetheless..... 5kts speed in 5 knots wind on an Express 30??

That's not what I said. I don't think an Express 30 is going to hit 5 kt
in 5 knots true. Maybe.

... Bow Wave??
Think again. Maybe an International 14.

Or a Frers 30, or an Olson 30, or a Schock 30 GP, or a Quest 30, or a
Soverel 30, or a Santana 30, J-29, Laser 28... lots of boats. And that's
racer/cruisers, not getting into the race-only boats like the Melges 30,
J-90, or the Mumm 30. Or any multihulls ;)

There's a whole world of non-crab-crushers out there. Not to say that
crab-crushers are bad, but you've got an eye-opening experience coming
if you think that a keel boat cannot make a bow wave off the wind in
light air.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Whoa There Race Boy....
 

but you've got an eye-opening experience coming
if you think that a keel boat cannot make a bow wave off the wind in
light air.

The mooron would have an eye opening experience if his boat made a bow wave in
any condition.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"No shirt, no skirt, full service"

Whoa There Race Boy....
 

OUCH!

wrote in message

| My boat would be faster than yours, even with (shudder) Jim Cate at
| the helm.

Whoa There Race Boy....
 

Someone's feelings are hurt..... bwahahahahahahaaaa!!

CM

"SAIL LOCO" wrote in message
...
| but you've got an eye-opening experience coming
| if you think that a keel boat cannot make a bow wave off the wind in
| light air.
|
| The mooron would have an eye opening experience if his boat made a bow
wave in
| any condition.
| S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
| "No shirt, no skirt, full service"

Whoa There Race Boy....
 

"DSK" wrote in message

| There's a whole world of non-crab-crushers out there. Not to say that
| crab-crushers are bad, but you've got an eye-opening experience coming
| if you think that a keel boat cannot make a bow wave off the wind in
| light air.

Good Grief Doug.... it's not like I haven't sailed a few ULDBs in my
life.... but I certainly don't consider it a bow wave when it's actually a
ripple. I've owned a Laser and a Hobie 18... no bow wave... a small 2 inch
ripple maybe... but no wave I can assure you.

There is also the point to be made of bow entry and hull shape that has a
lot to do with how much of a visible disturbance your vessel makes
underway.....

CM

Whoa There Race Boy....
 

wrote in message
| That's because you are always looking at the stern of other boats when
| going downwind in light air. You also probably think that boats
| sailing ahead of you downwind in light air are gradually shrinking.

I keep hearing people say that...... but it never happens that way. I
recently had to mount two braking chutes to my stern rail so as to slow down
and let the other boats catch up. ;-)

CM

Whoa There Race Boy....
 

Capt. Mooron wrote:
Good Grief Doug.... it's not like I haven't sailed a few ULDBs in my
life.... but I certainly don't consider it a bow wave when it's actually a
ripple. I've owned a Laser and a Hobie 18... no bow wave... a small 2 inch
ripple maybe... but no wave I can assure you.

Heck, a Soverel 33 will move at 4 or 5 knots in almost no wind at all,
if well sailed. Maybe it's just making a ripple IYHO? Just a few
weekends ago I watched a Kirie Elite 30-something (looked to be about 35
feet) and a C&C 34+ tearing around the racecourse in winds of about 3
knots and chop.


There is also the point to be made of bow entry and hull shape that has a
lot to do with how much of a visible disturbance your vessel makes
underway.....

Yeah, there's that. But when the boat reaches some significant percent
of hull speed, it's going to making waves not ripples.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Whoa There Race Boy....
 

"DSK" wrote in message

| Heck, a Soverel 33 will move at 4 or 5 knots in almost no wind at all,
| if well sailed. Maybe it's just making a ripple IYHO? Just a few
| weekends ago I watched a Kirie Elite 30-something (looked to be about 35
| feet) and a C&C 34+ tearing around the racecourse in winds of about 3
| knots and chop.

The hell you say..... 4 or 5 kts in no wind!!! Okay Doug.... put down the
Jack Daniels and back away from the bar!! ;-)
I have no experience with the Kirie Elite but I have been on a C&C 34 in
Vancouver. There is no way a C&C 34 can be described as "tearing around" at
3 knots... even with no chop!

| Yeah, there's that. But when the boat reaches some significant percent
| of hull speed, it's going to making waves not ripples.

Okay let's explore that point.... down wind with the wave train at let's
average it about a 2ft wave height and a 6 ft between crests. The boat is
doing lets say half an average hull speed [6kts]... on a dead downwind
run....so we'll call it 3 kts speed. The wave train is moving much faster
than that but can hardly be noticed on the 4 feet of freeboard. Now you mean
to tell me that you can see a bow wave in those conditions? Okay... maybe
when you come down onto a passing wave train.... but that's a momentary
situation.

To form a bow wave... I believe you need to be "pushing" water... not
parting it.

Anyhow... the floor is yours... I'll just stroll over to the bottle of Jack
Daniels here ;-)

CM

Whoa There Race Boy....
 

Fin Keelers never venture far from the harbour and generally
loose not only their bravado but their bowel content when faced with a real
ocean.
|


That'll no doubt explain the design of all off shore monohull racing
yachts...

Cheers

Whoa There Race Boy....
 

Capt. Mooron wrote:

"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...

| Was the Irwin sailing upwind under bare poles?

No... but it may as well have been considering the speed it was making going
downwind.



But you've never sailed faster than windspeed. By the way, when you you
going to get your defective log fixed?


Cheers

Whoa There Race Boy....
 

We regularly sail faster than true wind at wind speeds of 4-6 knots on a
broad reach with the gennaker. It's not at all unusual in performance
yachts and almost a boring fact of life for big cats.

Cheers

DSK wrote:

Capt. Mooron wrote:

A BOW WAVE!!!! Come on Loco..... don't expect us to swallow that
line of
hogwash. I've never seen more than a ripple from any vessel downwind in
light air.


You need to get out more.

Tell us how fast you sail with a chute in 5 kts of wind???


Probably somewhere around 4 knots. I know of boats that can sail at 5.5
or better, with a spinnaker, in 5 knots of true wind (hint... think
apparent wind).

Fresh Breezes... really!
Doug King

Whoa There Race Boy....
 

Capt. Mooron wrote:

A BOW WAVE!!!! Come on Loco..... don't expect us to swallow that line of
hogwash. I've never seen more than a ripple from any vessel downwind in
light air.

The only possible explanation for this observation -and we all know CM
doesn't exaggerate about things (except maybe his sexual prowess) is
that the boats he observed _must_ have been sailing away from him!

Bwhahahhahahahahahah

Cheers

Whoa There Race Boy....
 

Capt. Mooron wrote:

wrote in message

| Meanwhile, you will also note that my boat's PHRF is generally grouped in
with
| boats with 3 or 4 more feet of waterline than my boat. My PHRF is 168,
what's
| yours? Do they rate you in with school busses and dumptrucks?

More like a train.... I raced with a PHRF of 170.


That explains a lot. How did you get such a gift PHRF -by winning races?

Cheers

Whoa There Race Boy....
 

"Capt. Mooron" wrote

but I have been on a C&C 34 in
Vancouver. There is no way a C&C 34 can be described as "tearing around"
at
3 knots... even with no chop!

you don't know which year/model Doug was talking about, do ya?

Scotty

Whoa There Race Boy....
 

"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
...

"Donal" wrote in message

| Rubbish! My 32 footer would thrash you on any point of sail!

Bah!... the only part of that statement worth retaining is the "My 32
footer","thrash" & "Rubbish"
Upwind you might have a chance of keeping up....downwind you'd be lost far
behind me.

The opposite is true. Going upwind, my lack of momentum means that the
waves slow me down, whereas you would be able to maintain your 4.5 kts.

Going downwind, however, would be an entirely different matter. You
wouldn't see me for dust! Your pathetic little crab crusher would be
bouncing around in the waves while I would be surfing away - at high speed!



13kts sustained average over 2 miles..... stick that in your French Fried
Fin Keeler!

Bwahahahaha! Pull the other one - it's got bells on! Delivery trips on
the back of a truck don't count.

Speed over ground doesn't count either.




|
| In my humble experience, the owners of crab crushers are "all mouth and
no
| trousers". They choose their boats on the basis that they are
incredibly
| seaworthy - and then they refuse to set sail in anything more than a F4.
| They never see hull speed because they are afraid to venture out in the
| conditions that would enable them to do hull speed.

This is obviously a situation unique to the British.... my findings
illustrate that Fin Keelers never venture far from the harbour and
generally
loose not only their bravado but their bowel content when faced with a
real
ocean.

I can just imagine Ellen Mc Arthur sailing around the world in a crab
crusher?????

Really,... Mooron, you need to get a grip on reality. When was the last
time that a crab crusher took part in a "Round the World" race?





|
| I, on the other hand, am the proud possessor of a boat that really *is*
| able to exceed hull speed.

So can most margarine containers..... when push comes to shove they flip
&
fold faster than superman on laundry day!

Fin Keelers..... Pah!

Regards


Donal
--