Fog, DR and traffic lights.
 

In the final days of sail powered commercial shipping, 25 out of every 100
ships sank at sea -- usually from hitting rocks in limited visibility
conditions -- before being taken out of service due to age, about 20 years.
one in four ships sank before retiring (according to Royce).

In fact, recreational sailboats (and powerboats) often hit the rocks in fog or
rain, thinking they were somewhere else on the water, until the advent of Loran
and later GPS (becoming more common on boats starting about 25 years ago).

Wandering around in a fog or driving rain is stupid and irrational, so sailors
just convinced themselves that they personally were smarter than the gods and
the laws of physics both.

DR is, in fact, "navigating" by pointing yourself in some direction, then
moving what you think is in the direction at some speed relative to the air and
water around you for some period of time, and then convincing yourself that you
ended up exactly that far in that direction, less some fudge factor based upon
a guess as to water and wind movements. (think of walking in a large field, a
helmut over your head that shows you only what direction you are pointed, a
clock and a counter for the number of steps you take).

Obviously, that is a truly dangerous thing to do with rocks in the water, and
prudent mariners of the day stood offshore until the weather improved. stew
ped marines, on the other hand, hit the rocks and sank, or *if* they got very
lucky indeed and missed the rocks convinced themselves the gods and laws of
physics don't apply to them.

Now, because DR in and among rocks is so stew ped, armchair sailors and those
who only occasionally get out on the water and those who have been lucky -- so
far -- decided to "expand" the definition enough to make it look as if they
really, really, really weren't stew ped for wandering around in a fog. They
changed the definition to included landmarks, and still call this "deduced"
navigation (* see below). these rather indiotic, buy non-sailing, sailors
called DR something like this. You stand on the corner of 1st and Elm, walk to
5th and Elm, turn left and walk past Maple to Oak, turn right and walk to 7th,
turn right to Maple and you are there. Nevermind that they deduced not a thing
at all, they had a known (and knowable) position every step of the way. Now,
they feel safe when they are out in a fog or driving rain, for no rocks can
search them out to sink them.

* some armchair and/or limited experience sailors changed the definition of DR
from Deduced Reckoning to Dead Reckoning (the word dead as in dead even, or
dead on center or dead (as in flush) as a doornail) than thus instantly --
though obviously completely erroneously -- make their position on the water in
a fog or driving rain to be nowhere near any rocks.

Now, because armchair and/or limited experience and/or very lucky sailors
intuitively KNOW that wondering around in the fog or driving rain is stew ped,
they feel oh so much more comforted when they lie to themselves and tell
themselves that the gods and a laws of physics don't apply to them.

But remember, in the final days of commercial sailing vessels (manned by highly
experienced, professional mariners) one ship in four sank before being taken
out of service due to old age (about 20 years).

Fog, DR and traffic lights.
 

NOTE: This message was sent thru a mail2news gateway.
No effort was made to verify the identity of the sender.
--------------------------------------------------------

Maybe back in 1900, compared to dying from pneumonia, tuberculosis,
untreatable heart disease, untreatable cancer, a work accident (land-
lubber's work), or cirrhosis of the liver, drowning at work in the
Atlantic, on a gamble, didn't seem like the worst fate of all. But
today, it's just stew ped, as you say.

Fog, DR and traffic lights.
 

The ocean is a very scary place for you, jaxie.

That's why you wanted to turn back at Hatteras when you couldn't figure out your
position even with GPS. If the GPS is too challenging for you, I can see why
you never learned DR or Piloting.

Of course, just coping with a boat in calm, clear conditions is too much for
you, jaxie. That's why you had to call the Coast Guard in LIS because your
engine was running a bit hot.

Very scary, jaxie, very scary.



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
In the final days of sail powered commercial shipping, 25 out of every 100
ships sank at sea -- usually from hitting rocks in limited visibility
conditions -- before being taken out of service due to age, about 20 years.
one in four ships sank before retiring (according to Royce).

In fact, recreational sailboats (and powerboats) often hit the rocks in fog or
rain, thinking they were somewhere else on the water, until the advent of
Loran
and later GPS (becoming more common on boats starting about 25 years ago).

Wandering around in a fog or driving rain is stupid and irrational, so sailors
just convinced themselves that they personally were smarter than the gods and
the laws of physics both.

DR is, in fact, "navigating" by pointing yourself in some direction, then
moving what you think is in the direction at some speed relative to the air
and
water around you for some period of time, and then convincing yourself that
you
ended up exactly that far in that direction, less some fudge factor based upon
a guess as to water and wind movements. (think of walking in a large field, a
helmut over your head that shows you only what direction you are pointed, a
clock and a counter for the number of steps you take).

Obviously, that is a truly dangerous thing to do with rocks in the water, and
prudent mariners of the day stood offshore until the weather improved. stew
ped marines, on the other hand, hit the rocks and sank, or *if* they got very
lucky indeed and missed the rocks convinced themselves the gods and laws of
physics don't apply to them.

Now, because DR in and among rocks is so stew ped, armchair sailors and those
who only occasionally get out on the water and those who have been lucky -- so
far -- decided to "expand" the definition enough to make it look as if they
really, really, really weren't stew ped for wandering around in a fog. They
changed the definition to included landmarks, and still call this "deduced"
navigation (* see below). these rather indiotic, buy non-sailing, sailors
called DR something like this. You stand on the corner of 1st and Elm, walk
to
5th and Elm, turn left and walk past Maple to Oak, turn right and walk to 7th,
turn right to Maple and you are there. Nevermind that they deduced not a
thing
at all, they had a known (and knowable) position every step of the way. Now,
they feel safe when they are out in a fog or driving rain, for no rocks can
search them out to sink them.

* some armchair and/or limited experience sailors changed the definition of DR
from Deduced Reckoning to Dead Reckoning (the word dead as in dead even, or
dead on center or dead (as in flush) as a doornail) than thus instantly --
though obviously completely erroneously -- make their position on the water in
a fog or driving rain to be nowhere near any rocks.

Now, because armchair and/or limited experience and/or very lucky sailors
intuitively KNOW that wondering around in the fog or driving rain is stew ped,
they feel oh so much more comforted when they lie to themselves and tell
themselves that the gods and a laws of physics don't apply to them.

But remember, in the final days of commercial sailing vessels (manned by
highly
experienced, professional mariners) one ship in four sank before being taken
out of service due to old age (about 20 years).

Fog, DR and traffic lights.
 

Who changed the definition to include landmarks?

Fog, DR and traffic lights.
 

You're in Jaxworld now.

"otnmbrd" wrote in message
k.net...
Who changed the definition to include landmarks?

Fog, DR and traffic lights.
 

jeffies, the engine wasn't running a bit hot, the bogus captain claimed it was
running hot and neither he nor the boat owner knew how to use the VHF. I set
the sails to continue moving and the bogus captain took them down and strapped
them tight so we were drifting.

now, about your iron clad belief, jeffies, that a gps *exactly* shows you where
you are on a chart ... you are a bit mistaken. ask your wife to explain it to
you.

The ocean is a very scary place for you, jaxie.

That's why you wanted to turn back at Hatteras when you couldn't figure out
your
position even with GPS. If the GPS is too challenging for you, I can see
why
you never learned DR or Piloting.

Of course, just coping with a boat in calm, clear conditions is too much for
you, jaxie. That's why you had to call the Coast Guard in LIS because your
engine was running a bit hot.

Very scary, jaxie, very scary.



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
In the final days of sail powered commercial shipping, 25 out of every 100
ships sank at sea -- usually from hitting rocks in limited visibility
conditions -- before being taken out of service due to age, about 20 years.
one in four ships sank before retiring (according to Royce).

In fact, recreational sailboats (and powerboats) often hit the rocks in fog
or
rain, thinking they were somewhere else on the water, until the advent of
Loran
and later GPS (becoming more common on boats starting about 25 years ago).

Wandering around in a fog or driving rain is stupid and irrational, so
sailors
just convinced themselves that they personally were smarter than the gods
and
the laws of physics both.

DR is, in fact, "navigating" by pointing yourself in some direction, then
moving what you think is in the direction at some speed relative to the air
and
water around you for some period of time, and then convincing yourself that
you
ended up exactly that far in that direction, less some fudge factor based
upon
a guess as to water and wind movements. (think of walking in a large field,
a
helmut over your head that shows you only what direction you are pointed, a
clock and a counter for the number of steps you take).

Obviously, that is a truly dangerous thing to do with rocks in the water,
and
prudent mariners of the day stood offshore until the weather improved.
stew
ped marines, on the other hand, hit the rocks and sank, or *if* they got
very
lucky indeed and missed the rocks convinced themselves the gods and laws of
physics don't apply to them.

Now, because DR in and among rocks is so stew ped, armchair sailors and
those
who only occasionally get out on the water and those who have been lucky --
so
far -- decided to "expand" the definition enough to make it look as if they
really, really, really weren't stew ped for wandering around in a fog.
They
changed the definition to included landmarks, and still call this "deduced"
navigation (* see below). these rather indiotic, buy non-sailing, sailors
called DR something like this. You stand on the corner of 1st and Elm,
walk
to
5th and Elm, turn left and walk past Maple to Oak, turn right and walk to
7th,
turn right to Maple and you are there. Nevermind that they deduced not a
thing
at all, they had a known (and knowable) position every step of the way.
Now,
they feel safe when they are out in a fog or driving rain, for no rocks can
search them out to sink them.

* some armchair and/or limited experience sailors changed the definition of
DR
from Deduced Reckoning to Dead Reckoning (the word dead as in dead even, or
dead on center or dead (as in flush) as a doornail) than thus instantly --
though obviously completely erroneously -- make their position on the water
in
a fog or driving rain to be nowhere near any rocks.

Now, because armchair and/or limited experience and/or very lucky sailors
intuitively KNOW that wondering around in the fog or driving rain is stew
ped,
they feel oh so much more comforted when they lie to themselves and tell
themselves that the gods and a laws of physics don't apply to them.

But remember, in the final days of commercial sailing vessels (manned by
highly
experienced, professional mariners) one ship in four sank before being
taken
out of service due to old age (about 20 years).

Fog, DR and traffic lights.
 

Who changed the definition to include landmarks?

jeffies.

Fog, DR and traffic lights.
 

Subject: Fog, DR and traffic lights.
From: (JAXAshby)
Date: 07/18/2004 12:06 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Who changed the definition to include landmarks?

jeffies.


No he didn't, you did.
Typically, with your poor reading comprehension and lack of abilities where
navigation is concerned, you took a statement you didn't understand and tried
to turn it to your advantage.
Jeff said nothing about pilotage ... you did; Jeff said nothing about using
landmarks .... you did.
Jeff's comment was that when you start someplace, you know where you are (he
can correct me if I'm wrong) .... you could not understand this and
manufactured the rest.

Shen

Fog, DR and traffic lights.
 

Right Jaxie, whatever you say. All we know is that you called the Coast Guard
and drifted for a day because you couldn't figure out what to do.

As for GPS, I have no trouble with it - you're the one who was lost at Hatteras,
not me. Or are you claiming that GPS was off by 10 miles on that day. The
funny thing is, jaxie, you still haven't told us what buoy you were looking for
then - you're still lost!



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
jeffies, the engine wasn't running a bit hot, the bogus captain claimed it was
running hot and neither he nor the boat owner knew how to use the VHF. I set
the sails to continue moving and the bogus captain took them down and strapped
them tight so we were drifting.

now, about your iron clad belief, jeffies, that a gps *exactly* shows you
where
you are on a chart ... you are a bit mistaken. ask your wife to explain it to
you.

The ocean is a very scary place for you, jaxie.

That's why you wanted to turn back at Hatteras when you couldn't figure out
your
position even with GPS. If the GPS is too challenging for you, I can see
why
you never learned DR or Piloting.

Of course, just coping with a boat in calm, clear conditions is too much for
you, jaxie. That's why you had to call the Coast Guard in LIS because your
engine was running a bit hot.

Very scary, jaxie, very scary.



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
In the final days of sail powered commercial shipping, 25 out of every 100
ships sank at sea -- usually from hitting rocks in limited visibility
conditions -- before being taken out of service due to age, about 20 years.
one in four ships sank before retiring (according to Royce).

In fact, recreational sailboats (and powerboats) often hit the rocks in fog
or
rain, thinking they were somewhere else on the water, until the advent of
Loran
and later GPS (becoming more common on boats starting about 25 years ago).

Wandering around in a fog or driving rain is stupid and irrational, so
sailors
just convinced themselves that they personally were smarter than the gods
and
the laws of physics both.

DR is, in fact, "navigating" by pointing yourself in some direction, then
moving what you think is in the direction at some speed relative to the air
and
water around you for some period of time, and then convincing yourself that
you
ended up exactly that far in that direction, less some fudge factor based
upon
a guess as to water and wind movements. (think of walking in a large field,
a
helmut over your head that shows you only what direction you are pointed, a
clock and a counter for the number of steps you take).

Obviously, that is a truly dangerous thing to do with rocks in the water,
and
prudent mariners of the day stood offshore until the weather improved.
stew
ped marines, on the other hand, hit the rocks and sank, or *if* they got
very
lucky indeed and missed the rocks convinced themselves the gods and laws of
physics don't apply to them.

Now, because DR in and among rocks is so stew ped, armchair sailors and
those
who only occasionally get out on the water and those who have been lucky --
so
far -- decided to "expand" the definition enough to make it look as if they
really, really, really weren't stew ped for wandering around in a fog.
They
changed the definition to included landmarks, and still call this "deduced"
navigation (* see below). these rather indiotic, buy non-sailing, sailors
called DR something like this. You stand on the corner of 1st and Elm,
walk
to
5th and Elm, turn left and walk past Maple to Oak, turn right and walk to
7th,
turn right to Maple and you are there. Nevermind that they deduced not a
thing
at all, they had a known (and knowable) position every step of the way.
Now,
they feel safe when they are out in a fog or driving rain, for no rocks can
search them out to sink them.

* some armchair and/or limited experience sailors changed the definition of
DR
from Deduced Reckoning to Dead Reckoning (the word dead as in dead even, or
dead on center or dead (as in flush) as a doornail) than thus instantly --
though obviously completely erroneously -- make their position on the water
in
a fog or driving rain to be nowhere near any rocks.

Now, because armchair and/or limited experience and/or very lucky sailors
intuitively KNOW that wondering around in the fog or driving rain is stew
ped,
they feel oh so much more comforted when they lie to themselves and tell
themselves that the gods and a laws of physics don't apply to them.

But remember, in the final days of commercial sailing vessels (manned by
highly
experienced, professional mariners) one ship in four sank before being
taken
out of service due to old age (about 20 years).

Fog, DR and traffic lights.
 

That's right - starting with a Fix is pretty fundamental for DR navigation. One
could also say that the compass represents another reference, but that would be
too complex for jaxie.



"Shen44" wrote in message
...
Subject: Fog, DR and traffic lights.
From: (JAXAshby)
Date: 07/18/2004 12:06 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Who changed the definition to include landmarks?

jeffies.


No he didn't, you did.
Typically, with your poor reading comprehension and lack of abilities where
navigation is concerned, you took a statement you didn't understand and tried
to turn it to your advantage.
Jeff said nothing about pilotage ... you did; Jeff said nothing about using
landmarks .... you did.
Jeff's comment was that when you start someplace, you know where you are (he
can correct me if I'm wrong) .... you could not understand this and
manufactured the rest.

Shen

Fog, DR and traffic lights.
 

Fog, DR and traffic lights.
 

absolutely not. DR has no reference points in it, and I have never stated that
it does.

Subject: Fog, DR and traffic lights.
From: (JAXAshby)
Date: 07/18/2004 12:06 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Who changed the definition to include landmarks?

jeffies.


No he didn't, you did.
Typically, with your poor reading comprehension and lack of abilities where
navigation is concerned, you took a statement you didn't understand and tried
to turn it to your advantage.
Jeff said nothing about pilotage ... you did; Jeff said nothing about using
landmarks .... you did.
Jeff's comment was that when you start someplace, you know where you are (he
can correct me if I'm wrong) .... you could not understand this and
manufactured the rest.

Shen

Fog, DR and traffic lights.
 

One
could also say that the compass represents another reference

no, one can not. one can ONLY state which direction magnetic North is and
which direction relative to that the boat is pointed, but *no* deduction can be
made as to which direction actually is actually going. none.



but that would be
too complex for jaxie.

wasn't too complex for Einstein when he wrote his PhD thesis on the subject.
you can read that thesis, if you want, by looking up The Special Theory of
Relativity.

Fog, DR and traffic lights.
 

All we know is that you called the Coast Guard
and drifted for a day because you couldn't figure out what to do.

no, you don't know that. you do know the bogus captain of the boat claimed the
engine was over-heated (it wasn't), and you do know the bogus captain took down
the sails and strapped them down when I tried to sail the boat (in zephyr
winds) and you do know neither the bogus captain nor the boat owner could
figure out how to use the VHF.

Fog, DR and traffic lights.
 

you still haven't told us what buoy you were looking for
then

it was a light, at night. if we didn't find that light we were going to do the
prudent thing and turn around, go back from where we came, turn east, travel
well away from Hatteras and hope we didn't hit the Gulf Stream that would take
us back north, and then resume going south.

jeffies, we were trying to go between the Gulf Stream and Hatteras, and that
was a tight squeeze that day.

you, jeffies, would have done what?

Fog, DR and traffic lights.
 

And you can not do a simple basic DR plot factoring in set and drift.

no physicist on the planet would say you can, and do so accurately enough to
miss the rocks that might be nearby.

of course, if there are no rocks within 500 miles, have at it. you won't know
where you are for sure, but sooner or later the clouds will lift and you can
figure it out.

Fog, DR and traffic lights.
 

why do you guy keep insisting that *you* can do the physically impossible?

Do you not understand what you are saying?

it is either that, or you are being purposely dense.

Fog, DR and traffic lights.
 

Wrong jaxie. Every DR plot starts with a reference point. You're just showing
you have no idea what you're talking about.



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
absolutely not. DR has no reference points in it, and I have never stated
that
it does.

Subject: Fog, DR and traffic lights.
From: (JAXAshby)
Date: 07/18/2004 12:06 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Who changed the definition to include landmarks?

jeffies.


No he didn't, you did.
Typically, with your poor reading comprehension and lack of abilities where
navigation is concerned, you took a statement you didn't understand and tried
to turn it to your advantage.
Jeff said nothing about pilotage ... you did; Jeff said nothing about using
landmarks .... you did.
Jeff's comment was that when you start someplace, you know where you are (he
can correct me if I'm wrong) .... you could not understand this and
manufactured the rest.

Shen

Fog, DR and traffic lights.
 

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
One
could also say that the compass represents another reference

no, one can not. one can ONLY state which direction magnetic North is and
which direction relative to that the boat is pointed, but *no* deduction can
be
made as to which direction actually is actually going. none.

I never claimed you had absolute certainty with infinite precision about the
direction of travel. You're the one claiming that's the only definition of DR.
In fact, formally speaking, the DR plot by itself makes no such presumption; it
only describes the position based on the ship's heading and speed through the
water. If you had any understanding of DR you would know this. Once again, you
just prove you don't know what DR is.





but that would be
too complex for jaxie.

wasn't too complex for Einstein when he wrote his PhD thesis on the subject.
you can read that thesis, if you want, by looking up The Special Theory of
Relativity.

Einstein's PhD thesis was not special relativity, it was "A New Determination of
Molecular Dimensions." And Special Relativity did not focus on the relative
motion issues that are significant for ship's navigation. That was fully
addressed by Galileo in his "Theory or Relativity" 300 years earlier. Einstein
only mentioned it by way of recapitulating traditional physics before showing
how Special Relativity is different. It looks like this is yet another topic
where you can show your ignorance.

Fog, DR and traffic lights.
 

This jax is hopelessly lost....
CM

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
| Wrong jaxie. Every DR plot starts with a reference point. You're just
showing
| you have no idea what you're talking about.
|
|
|
| "JAXAshby" wrote in message
| ...
| absolutely not. DR has no reference points in it, and I have never
stated
| that
| it does.
|
| Subject: Fog, DR and traffic lights.
| From: (JAXAshby)
| Date: 07/18/2004 12:06 Pacific Standard Time
| Message-id:
|
| Who changed the definition to include landmarks?
|
| jeffies.
|
|
| No he didn't, you did.
| Typically, with your poor reading comprehension and lack of abilities
where
| navigation is concerned, you took a statement you didn't understand and
tried
| to turn it to your advantage.
| Jeff said nothing about pilotage ... you did; Jeff said nothing about
using
| landmarks .... you did.
| Jeff's comment was that when you start someplace, you know where you
are (he
| can correct me if I'm wrong) .... you could not understand this and
| manufactured the rest.
|
| Shen
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|

Fog, DR and traffic lights.
 

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
you still haven't told us what buoy you were looking for
then

it was a light, at night.

You keep saying that, but you still haven't told us which light. The prinmary
light, Diamond Shoals, has a nominal range of 18 miles. Are you claiming your
GPS was so far off you couldn't find that?

Frankly, I can remember virtually every major landmark I've passed in the last 5
years or so - I'll admit that I don't remember everything from 40 years ago.
But I have a log entry for every day I've sailed in the last 15 years or so.
Certainly I would remember which light was so elusive as to cause such a radical
solution!


if we didn't find that light we were going to do the
prudent thing and turn around, go back from where we came,

Where did you come from? New York?

turn east, travel
well away from Hatteras and hope we didn't hit the Gulf Stream that would take
us back north, and then resume going south.

jeffies, we were trying to go between the Gulf Stream and Hatteras, and that
was a tight squeeze that day.

Obviously it was too tight for you. You can go more than 5 miles inside of
Diamond Shoals light. In fact, you could navigate it safely just using
soundings. Its pretty clear you had no idea what was going on, and you still
haven't looked at a chart to figure it out. It sound like you were down below
soiling yourself, while the adults were goofing on you!



you, jeffies, would have done what?

I don't know - I've never been so badly lost that I couldn't find an 18 mile
light on a clear night, with a GPS.

Fog, DR and traffic lights.
 

JAXAshby wrote:
absolutely not. DR has no reference points in it, and I have never stated that
it does.

In that case, you best look up "reference point". The starting point of
a DR plot is generally at a known reference point and it can easily be
said that the ending point of your DR is also a reference point.

LOL Why is it, every time I open a Jax post now, my computer starts
playing the music from "Twilight Zone"?

otn

Fog, DR and traffic lights.
 

JAXAshby wrote:
One
could also say that the compass represents another reference


no, one can not. one can ONLY state which direction magnetic North is and
which direction relative to that the boat is pointed, but *no* deduction can be
made as to which direction actually is actually going. none.

Wrong. If someone has experience with ones particular boat, one has
experienced in the past similar conditions, so that one has an educated
feel for how much set one has under many conditions, which one can apply
to ones magnetic heading to determine which direction one is actually going.

otn

Fog, DR and traffic lights.
 

"otnmbrd" wrote in message
nk.net...


JAXAshby wrote:
absolutely not. DR has no reference points in it, and I have never
stated that
it does.

In that case, you best look up "reference point". The starting point of
a DR plot is generally at a known reference point


This is just too cruel!


I'm almost tempted to post photos of Jax in his underpants.



Regards


Donal
--

Fog, DR and traffic lights.
 

and goes to where??

jeffies, the ONLY thing you know for sure in DR is where you started, and you
don't even know where that is for sure once you are moving. ask your wife to
explain it to you.

Wrong jaxie. Every DR plot starts with a reference point. You're just
showing
you have no idea what you're talking about.



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
absolutely not. DR has no reference points in it, and I have never stated
that
it does.

Subject: Fog, DR and traffic lights.
From: (JAXAshby)
Date: 07/18/2004 12:06 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Who changed the definition to include landmarks?

jeffies.


No he didn't, you did.
Typically, with your poor reading comprehension and lack of abilities
where
navigation is concerned, you took a statement you didn't understand and
tried
to turn it to your advantage.
Jeff said nothing about pilotage ... you did; Jeff said nothing about
using
landmarks .... you did.
Jeff's comment was that when you start someplace, you know where you are
(he
can correct me if I'm wrong) .... you could not understand this and
manufactured the rest.

Shen

Fog, DR and traffic lights.
 

the starting point is no longer a reference point once you are moving, because
you no longer know where it is in relation to where your boat is.

this ain't hard stuff, dood. every pilot on the planet knows it.

absolutely not. DR has no reference points in it, and I have never stated
that
it does.

In that case, you best look up "reference point". The starting point of
a DR plot is generally at a known reference point and it can easily be
said that the ending point of your DR is also a reference point.

LOL Why is it, every time I open a Jax post now, my computer starts
playing the music from "Twilight Zone"?

otn

Fog, DR and traffic lights.
 

it can easily be
said that the ending point of your DR is also a reference point.

while it may be easily said, it is in no way accurate, for you do not with any
degree of certainty just where you are once you have started. It is physically
impossible to know.

Fog, DR and traffic lights.
 

jeffies, DR is just guessing, and the degree of uncertainty can not be
determined. That is physically impossible.

remember, jeffies, when you claimed to have a degree in physics from some
junior college? Well, if you had that associates degree in physics you might
have heard of the PhD thesis written a hundred some years ago by a young man by
the Al Einstein.

One
could also say that the compass represents another reference

no, one can not. one can ONLY state which direction magnetic North is and
which direction relative to that the boat is pointed, but *no* deduction
can
be
made as to which direction actually is actually going. none.

I never claimed you had absolute certainty with infinite precision about the
direction of travel. You're the one claiming that's the only definition of
DR.
In fact, formally speaking, the DR plot by itself makes no such presumption;
it
only describes the position based on the ship's heading and speed through the
water. If you had any understanding of DR you would know this. Once again,
you
just prove you don't know what DR is.





but that would be
too complex for jaxie.

wasn't too complex for Einstein when he wrote his PhD thesis on the
subject.
you can read that thesis, if you want, by looking up The Special Theory of
Relativity.

Einstein's PhD thesis was not special relativity, it was "A New Determination
of
Molecular Dimensions." And Special Relativity did not focus on the relative
motion issues that are significant for ship's navigation. That was fully
addressed by Galileo in his "Theory or Relativity" 300 years earlier.
Einstein
only mentioned it by way of recapitulating traditional physics before showing
how Special Relativity is different. It looks like this is yet another topic
where you can show your ignorance.

Fog, DR and traffic lights.
 

you
just prove you don't know what DR is.

well, what you claim is fine navigation practise has been illegal for pilots
(who easily understand why) for seventy some years.

Fog, DR and traffic lights.
 

No, and that sort of thinking has been illegal for pilots to put into practise
for seventy some years. there is a reason why it is illegal. a good,
scientific reason.

One
could also say that the compass represents another reference


no, one can not. one can ONLY state which direction magnetic North is and
which direction relative to that the boat is pointed, but *no* deduction
can be
made as to which direction actually is actually going. none.

Wrong. If someone has experience with ones particular boat, one has
experienced in the past similar conditions, so that one has an educated
feel for how much set one has under many conditions, which one can apply
to ones magnetic heading to determine which direction one is actually going.

otn

Fog, DR and traffic lights.
 

If this is all you know about DR, its a good thing you don't actually go
sailing. There are many things you "know for sure" if only you have the
intelligence to understand them.



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
and goes to where??

jeffies, the ONLY thing you know for sure in DR is where you started, and you
don't even know where that is for sure once you are moving. ask your wife to
explain it to you.

Wrong jaxie. Every DR plot starts with a reference point. You're just
showing
you have no idea what you're talking about.



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
absolutely not. DR has no reference points in it, and I have never stated
that
it does.

Subject: Fog, DR and traffic lights.
From: (JAXAshby)
Date: 07/18/2004 12:06 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Who changed the definition to include landmarks?

jeffies.


No he didn't, you did.
Typically, with your poor reading comprehension and lack of abilities
where
navigation is concerned, you took a statement you didn't understand and
tried
to turn it to your advantage.
Jeff said nothing about pilotage ... you did; Jeff said nothing about
using
landmarks .... you did.
Jeff's comment was that when you start someplace, you know where you are
(he
can correct me if I'm wrong) .... you could not understand this and
manufactured the rest.

Shen

Fog, DR and traffic lights.
 

If that's the criterion, then the North Pole is a good reference point.


"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
the starting point is no longer a reference point once you are moving, because
you no longer know where it is in relation to where your boat is.

this ain't hard stuff, dood. every pilot on the planet knows it.

absolutely not. DR has no reference points in it, and I have never stated
that
it does.

In that case, you best look up "reference point". The starting point of
a DR plot is generally at a known reference point and it can easily be
said that the ending point of your DR is also a reference point.

LOL Why is it, every time I open a Jax post now, my computer starts
playing the music from "Twilight Zone"?

otn

Fog, DR and traffic lights.
 

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
jeffies, DR is just guessing, and the degree of uncertainty can not be
determined. That is physically impossible.

And why is this "qualitatively different" from any other method of navigation?


remember, jeffies, when you claimed to have a degree in physics from some
junior college? Well, if you had that associates degree in physics you might
have heard of the PhD thesis written a hundred some years ago by a young man
by
the Al Einstein.

Please, can you explain how "On a new determination of molecular dimensions"
relates to this problem? You don't even know what Bert's thesis actually was!




One
could also say that the compass represents another reference

no, one can not. one can ONLY state which direction magnetic North is and
which direction relative to that the boat is pointed, but *no* deduction
can
be
made as to which direction actually is actually going. none.

I never claimed you had absolute certainty with infinite precision about the
direction of travel. You're the one claiming that's the only definition of
DR.
In fact, formally speaking, the DR plot by itself makes no such presumption;
it
only describes the position based on the ship's heading and speed through the
water. If you had any understanding of DR you would know this. Once again,
you
just prove you don't know what DR is.





but that would be
too complex for jaxie.

wasn't too complex for Einstein when he wrote his PhD thesis on the
subject.
you can read that thesis, if you want, by looking up The Special Theory of
Relativity.

Einstein's PhD thesis was not special relativity, it was "A New Determination
of
Molecular Dimensions." And Special Relativity did not focus on the relative
motion issues that are significant for ship's navigation. That was fully
addressed by Galileo in his "Theory or Relativity" 300 years earlier.
Einstein
only mentioned it by way of recapitulating traditional physics before showing
how Special Relativity is different. It looks like this is yet another topic
where you can show your ignorance.

Fog, DR and traffic lights.
 

you still haven't told us which light.

it made no difference WHICH light, for ALL lights are important there. At
least as far as we were concerned.

Fog, DR and traffic lights.
 

Frankly, I can remember virtually every major landmark I've passed in the
last 5
years or so

both of them?

Fog, DR and traffic lights.
 

JAXAshby wrote:
it can easily be
said that the ending point of your DR is also a reference point.


while it may be easily said, it is in no way accurate, for you do not with any
degree of certainty just where you are once you have started. It is physically
impossible to know.


Wait a bit while I turn down the volume on my speakers .... damn
"twighlight zone " music is gettin louder....... there..... now.....

huh?

otn

Fog, DR and traffic lights.
 

JAXAshby wrote:
jeffies, DR is just guessing, and the degree of uncertainty can not be
determined. That is physically impossible.

remember, jeffies, when you claimed to have a degree in physics from some
junior college? Well, if you had that associates degree in physics you might
have heard of the PhD thesis written a hundred some years ago by a young man by
the Al Einstein.


UHOH, look out!!!! Jax is gettin serious now, he's pulling out his big
guns, ole Albie Einstein !!!!

Fog, DR and traffic lights.
 

JAXAshby wrote:
you
just prove you don't know what DR is.


well, what you claim is fine navigation practise has been illegal for pilots
(who easily understand why) for seventy some years.


Ummmmm jax, we's talkin boats here.

Fog, DR and traffic lights.
 

JAXAshby wrote:
No, and that sort of thinking has been illegal for pilots to put into practise
for seventy some years. there is a reason why it is illegal. a good,
scientific reason.

Oh GOODY !!! The next time I'm flyin in a boat at 20,000 feet, I'll keep
that in mind!!!

Ya didn't understand me, did ya?

otn



One
could also say that the compass represents another reference


no, one can not. one can ONLY state which direction magnetic North is and
which direction relative to that the boat is pointed, but *no* deduction

can be

made as to which direction actually is actually going. none.

Wrong. If someone has experience with ones particular boat, one has
experienced in the past similar conditions, so that one has an educated
feel for how much set one has under many conditions, which one can apply
to ones magnetic heading to determine which direction one is actually going.

otn

Fog, DR and traffic lights.
 

jeffies, I know what every physicist on the planet knows (as you would too *if*
you have the degree in physics you claim) and what every pilot on the planet
knows.

If this is all you know about DR, its a good thing you don't actually go
sailing. There are many things you "know for sure" if only you have the
intelligence to understand them.



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
and goes to where??

jeffies, the ONLY thing you know for sure in DR is where you started, and
you
don't even know where that is for sure once you are moving. ask your wife
to
explain it to you.

Wrong jaxie. Every DR plot starts with a reference point. You're just
showing
you have no idea what you're talking about.



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
absolutely not. DR has no reference points in it, and I have never
stated
that
it does.

Subject: Fog, DR and traffic lights.
From: (JAXAshby)
Date: 07/18/2004 12:06 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Who changed the definition to include landmarks?

jeffies.


No he didn't, you did.
Typically, with your poor reading comprehension and lack of abilities
where
navigation is concerned, you took a statement you didn't understand and
tried
to turn it to your advantage.
Jeff said nothing about pilotage ... you did; Jeff said nothing about
using
landmarks .... you did.
Jeff's comment was that when you start someplace, you know where you
are
(he
can correct me if I'm wrong) .... you could not understand this and
manufactured the rest.

Shen