In the final days of sail powered commercial shipping, 25 out of every 100
ships sank at sea -- usually from hitting rocks in limited visibility
conditions -- before being taken out of service due to age, about 20 years.
one in four ships sank before retiring (according to Royce).

In fact, recreational sailboats (and powerboats) often hit the rocks in fog or
rain, thinking they were somewhere else on the water, until the advent of Loran
and later GPS (becoming more common on boats starting about 25 years ago).

Wandering around in a fog or driving rain is stupid and irrational, so sailors
just convinced themselves that they personally were smarter than the gods and
the laws of physics both.

DR is, in fact, "navigating" by pointing yourself in some direction, then
moving what you think is in the direction at some speed relative to the air and
water around you for some period of time, and then convincing yourself that you
ended up exactly that far in that direction, less some fudge factor based upon
a guess as to water and wind movements. (think of walking in a large field, a
helmut over your head that shows you only what direction you are pointed, a
clock and a counter for the number of steps you take).

Obviously, that is a truly dangerous thing to do with rocks in the water, and
prudent mariners of the day stood offshore until the weather improved. stew
ped marines, on the other hand, hit the rocks and sank, or *if* they got very
lucky indeed and missed the rocks convinced themselves the gods and laws of
physics don't apply to them.

Now, because DR in and among rocks is so stew ped, armchair sailors and those
who only occasionally get out on the water and those who have been lucky -- so
far -- decided to "expand" the definition enough to make it look as if they
really, really, really weren't stew ped for wandering around in a fog. They
changed the definition to included landmarks, and still call this "deduced"
navigation (* see below). these rather indiotic, buy non-sailing, sailors
called DR something like this. You stand on the corner of 1st and Elm, walk to
5th and Elm, turn left and walk past Maple to Oak, turn right and walk to 7th,
turn right to Maple and you are there. Nevermind that they deduced not a thing
at all, they had a known (and knowable) position every step of the way. Now,
they feel safe when they are out in a fog or driving rain, for no rocks can
search them out to sink them.

* some armchair and/or limited experience sailors changed the definition of DR
from Deduced Reckoning to Dead Reckoning (the word dead as in dead even, or
dead on center or dead (as in flush) as a doornail) than thus instantly --
though obviously completely erroneously -- make their position on the water in
a fog or driving rain to be nowhere near any rocks.

Now, because armchair and/or limited experience and/or very lucky sailors
intuitively KNOW that wondering around in the fog or driving rain is stew ped,
they feel oh so much more comforted when they lie to themselves and tell
themselves that the gods and a laws of physics don't apply to them.

But remember, in the final days of commercial sailing vessels (manned by highly
experienced, professional mariners) one ship in four sank before being taken
out of service due to old age (about 20 years).

NOTE: This message was sent thru a mail2news gateway.
No effort was made to verify the identity of the sender.
--------------------------------------------------------

Maybe back in 1900, compared to dying from pneumonia, tuberculosis,
untreatable heart disease, untreatable cancer, a work accident (land-
lubber's work), or cirrhosis of the liver, drowning at work in the
Atlantic, on a gamble, didn't seem like the worst fate of all. But
today, it's just stew ped, as you say.

The ocean is a very scary place for you, jaxie.

That's why you wanted to turn back at Hatteras when you couldn't figure out your
position even with GPS. If the GPS is too challenging for you, I can see why
you never learned DR or Piloting.

Of course, just coping with a boat in calm, clear conditions is too much for
you, jaxie. That's why you had to call the Coast Guard in LIS because your
engine was running a bit hot.

Very scary, jaxie, very scary.



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
In the final days of sail powered commercial shipping, 25 out of every 100
ships sank at sea -- usually from hitting rocks in limited visibility
conditions -- before being taken out of service due to age, about 20 years.
one in four ships sank before retiring (according to Royce).

In fact, recreational sailboats (and powerboats) often hit the rocks in fog or
rain, thinking they were somewhere else on the water, until the advent of
Loran
and later GPS (becoming more common on boats starting about 25 years ago).

Wandering around in a fog or driving rain is stupid and irrational, so sailors
just convinced themselves that they personally were smarter than the gods and
the laws of physics both.

DR is, in fact, "navigating" by pointing yourself in some direction, then
moving what you think is in the direction at some speed relative to the air
and
water around you for some period of time, and then convincing yourself that
you
ended up exactly that far in that direction, less some fudge factor based upon
a guess as to water and wind movements. (think of walking in a large field, a
helmut over your head that shows you only what direction you are pointed, a
clock and a counter for the number of steps you take).

Obviously, that is a truly dangerous thing to do with rocks in the water, and
prudent mariners of the day stood offshore until the weather improved. stew
ped marines, on the other hand, hit the rocks and sank, or *if* they got very
lucky indeed and missed the rocks convinced themselves the gods and laws of
physics don't apply to them.

Now, because DR in and among rocks is so stew ped, armchair sailors and those
who only occasionally get out on the water and those who have been lucky -- so
far -- decided to "expand" the definition enough to make it look as if they
really, really, really weren't stew ped for wandering around in a fog. They
changed the definition to included landmarks, and still call this "deduced"
navigation (* see below). these rather indiotic, buy non-sailing, sailors
called DR something like this. You stand on the corner of 1st and Elm, walk
to
5th and Elm, turn left and walk past Maple to Oak, turn right and walk to 7th,
turn right to Maple and you are there. Nevermind that they deduced not a
thing
at all, they had a known (and knowable) position every step of the way. Now,
they feel safe when they are out in a fog or driving rain, for no rocks can
search them out to sink them.

* some armchair and/or limited experience sailors changed the definition of DR
from Deduced Reckoning to Dead Reckoning (the word dead as in dead even, or
dead on center or dead (as in flush) as a doornail) than thus instantly --
though obviously completely erroneously -- make their position on the water in
a fog or driving rain to be nowhere near any rocks.

Now, because armchair and/or limited experience and/or very lucky sailors
intuitively KNOW that wondering around in the fog or driving rain is stew ped,
they feel oh so much more comforted when they lie to themselves and tell
themselves that the gods and a laws of physics don't apply to them.

But remember, in the final days of commercial sailing vessels (manned by
highly
experienced, professional mariners) one ship in four sank before being taken
out of service due to old age (about 20 years).

Who changed the definition to include landmarks?

You're in Jaxworld now.

"otnmbrd" wrote in message
k.net...
Who changed the definition to include landmarks?

jeffies, the engine wasn't running a bit hot, the bogus captain claimed it was
running hot and neither he nor the boat owner knew how to use the VHF. I set
the sails to continue moving and the bogus captain took them down and strapped
them tight so we were drifting.

now, about your iron clad belief, jeffies, that a gps *exactly* shows you where
you are on a chart ... you are a bit mistaken. ask your wife to explain it to
you.

The ocean is a very scary place for you, jaxie.

That's why you wanted to turn back at Hatteras when you couldn't figure out
your
position even with GPS. If the GPS is too challenging for you, I can see
why
you never learned DR or Piloting.

Of course, just coping with a boat in calm, clear conditions is too much for
you, jaxie. That's why you had to call the Coast Guard in LIS because your
engine was running a bit hot.

Very scary, jaxie, very scary.



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
In the final days of sail powered commercial shipping, 25 out of every 100
ships sank at sea -- usually from hitting rocks in limited visibility
conditions -- before being taken out of service due to age, about 20 years.
one in four ships sank before retiring (according to Royce).

In fact, recreational sailboats (and powerboats) often hit the rocks in fog
or
rain, thinking they were somewhere else on the water, until the advent of
Loran
and later GPS (becoming more common on boats starting about 25 years ago).

Wandering around in a fog or driving rain is stupid and irrational, so
sailors
just convinced themselves that they personally were smarter than the gods
and
the laws of physics both.

DR is, in fact, "navigating" by pointing yourself in some direction, then
moving what you think is in the direction at some speed relative to the air
and
water around you for some period of time, and then convincing yourself that
you
ended up exactly that far in that direction, less some fudge factor based
upon
a guess as to water and wind movements. (think of walking in a large field,
a
helmut over your head that shows you only what direction you are pointed, a
clock and a counter for the number of steps you take).

Obviously, that is a truly dangerous thing to do with rocks in the water,
and
prudent mariners of the day stood offshore until the weather improved.
stew
ped marines, on the other hand, hit the rocks and sank, or *if* they got
very
lucky indeed and missed the rocks convinced themselves the gods and laws of
physics don't apply to them.

Now, because DR in and among rocks is so stew ped, armchair sailors and
those
who only occasionally get out on the water and those who have been lucky --
so
far -- decided to "expand" the definition enough to make it look as if they
really, really, really weren't stew ped for wandering around in a fog.
They
changed the definition to included landmarks, and still call this "deduced"
navigation (* see below). these rather indiotic, buy non-sailing, sailors
called DR something like this. You stand on the corner of 1st and Elm,
walk
to
5th and Elm, turn left and walk past Maple to Oak, turn right and walk to
7th,
turn right to Maple and you are there. Nevermind that they deduced not a
thing
at all, they had a known (and knowable) position every step of the way.
Now,
they feel safe when they are out in a fog or driving rain, for no rocks can
search them out to sink them.

* some armchair and/or limited experience sailors changed the definition of
DR
from Deduced Reckoning to Dead Reckoning (the word dead as in dead even, or
dead on center or dead (as in flush) as a doornail) than thus instantly --
though obviously completely erroneously -- make their position on the water
in
a fog or driving rain to be nowhere near any rocks.

Now, because armchair and/or limited experience and/or very lucky sailors
intuitively KNOW that wondering around in the fog or driving rain is stew
ped,
they feel oh so much more comforted when they lie to themselves and tell
themselves that the gods and a laws of physics don't apply to them.

But remember, in the final days of commercial sailing vessels (manned by
highly
experienced, professional mariners) one ship in four sank before being
taken
out of service due to old age (about 20 years).

Who changed the definition to include landmarks?

jeffies.

Subject: Fog, DR and traffic lights.
From: (JAXAshby)
Date: 07/18/2004 12:06 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Who changed the definition to include landmarks?

jeffies.


No he didn't, you did.
Typically, with your poor reading comprehension and lack of abilities where
navigation is concerned, you took a statement you didn't understand and tried
to turn it to your advantage.
Jeff said nothing about pilotage ... you did; Jeff said nothing about using
landmarks .... you did.
Jeff's comment was that when you start someplace, you know where you are (he
can correct me if I'm wrong) .... you could not understand this and
manufactured the rest.

Shen

Right Jaxie, whatever you say. All we know is that you called the Coast Guard
and drifted for a day because you couldn't figure out what to do.

As for GPS, I have no trouble with it - you're the one who was lost at Hatteras,
not me. Or are you claiming that GPS was off by 10 miles on that day. The
funny thing is, jaxie, you still haven't told us what buoy you were looking for
then - you're still lost!



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
jeffies, the engine wasn't running a bit hot, the bogus captain claimed it was
running hot and neither he nor the boat owner knew how to use the VHF. I set
the sails to continue moving and the bogus captain took them down and strapped
them tight so we were drifting.

now, about your iron clad belief, jeffies, that a gps *exactly* shows you
where
you are on a chart ... you are a bit mistaken. ask your wife to explain it to
you.

The ocean is a very scary place for you, jaxie.

That's why you wanted to turn back at Hatteras when you couldn't figure out
your
position even with GPS. If the GPS is too challenging for you, I can see
why
you never learned DR or Piloting.

Of course, just coping with a boat in calm, clear conditions is too much for
you, jaxie. That's why you had to call the Coast Guard in LIS because your
engine was running a bit hot.

Very scary, jaxie, very scary.



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
In the final days of sail powered commercial shipping, 25 out of every 100
ships sank at sea -- usually from hitting rocks in limited visibility
conditions -- before being taken out of service due to age, about 20 years.
one in four ships sank before retiring (according to Royce).

In fact, recreational sailboats (and powerboats) often hit the rocks in fog
or
rain, thinking they were somewhere else on the water, until the advent of
Loran
and later GPS (becoming more common on boats starting about 25 years ago).

Wandering around in a fog or driving rain is stupid and irrational, so
sailors
just convinced themselves that they personally were smarter than the gods
and
the laws of physics both.

DR is, in fact, "navigating" by pointing yourself in some direction, then
moving what you think is in the direction at some speed relative to the air
and
water around you for some period of time, and then convincing yourself that
you
ended up exactly that far in that direction, less some fudge factor based
upon
a guess as to water and wind movements. (think of walking in a large field,
a
helmut over your head that shows you only what direction you are pointed, a
clock and a counter for the number of steps you take).

Obviously, that is a truly dangerous thing to do with rocks in the water,
and
prudent mariners of the day stood offshore until the weather improved.
stew
ped marines, on the other hand, hit the rocks and sank, or *if* they got
very
lucky indeed and missed the rocks convinced themselves the gods and laws of
physics don't apply to them.

Now, because DR in and among rocks is so stew ped, armchair sailors and
those
who only occasionally get out on the water and those who have been lucky --
so
far -- decided to "expand" the definition enough to make it look as if they
really, really, really weren't stew ped for wandering around in a fog.
They
changed the definition to included landmarks, and still call this "deduced"
navigation (* see below). these rather indiotic, buy non-sailing, sailors
called DR something like this. You stand on the corner of 1st and Elm,
walk
to
5th and Elm, turn left and walk past Maple to Oak, turn right and walk to
7th,
turn right to Maple and you are there. Nevermind that they deduced not a
thing
at all, they had a known (and knowable) position every step of the way.
Now,
they feel safe when they are out in a fog or driving rain, for no rocks can
search them out to sink them.

* some armchair and/or limited experience sailors changed the definition of
DR
from Deduced Reckoning to Dead Reckoning (the word dead as in dead even, or
dead on center or dead (as in flush) as a doornail) than thus instantly --
though obviously completely erroneously -- make their position on the water
in
a fog or driving rain to be nowhere near any rocks.

Now, because armchair and/or limited experience and/or very lucky sailors
intuitively KNOW that wondering around in the fog or driving rain is stew
ped,
they feel oh so much more comforted when they lie to themselves and tell
themselves that the gods and a laws of physics don't apply to them.

But remember, in the final days of commercial sailing vessels (manned by
highly
experienced, professional mariners) one ship in four sank before being
taken
out of service due to old age (about 20 years).

That's right - starting with a Fix is pretty fundamental for DR navigation. One
could also say that the compass represents another reference, but that would be
too complex for jaxie.



"Shen44" wrote in message
...
Subject: Fog, DR and traffic lights.
From: (JAXAshby)
Date: 07/18/2004 12:06 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Who changed the definition to include landmarks?

jeffies.


No he didn't, you did.
Typically, with your poor reading comprehension and lack of abilities where
navigation is concerned, you took a statement you didn't understand and tried
to turn it to your advantage.
Jeff said nothing about pilotage ... you did; Jeff said nothing about using
landmarks .... you did.
Jeff's comment was that when you start someplace, you know where you are (he
can correct me if I'm wrong) .... you could not understand this and
manufactured the rest.

Shen