DR practice
 

Subject: DR practice
From: (JAXAshby)
Date: 08/08/2004 05:46 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Sometimes I'm using piloting and others I'm using
pilotage .

*you*, shen, don't use either one, ever. go crawl back in your hole.



Actually I use both, even by your definitions, all the time, which is one
reason I'm not hung up on some limited usage of the terms.

Shen

DR practice
 

Subject: DR practice
From: (JAXAshby)
Date: 08/08/2004 05:54 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

No difference at all. Sometimes I'm using piloting and others I'm using
pilotage .... them's the same ting.

Shen

here ya go, shen. be enlightened.

pilotage

\Pi"lot*age\, n. [Cf. F. pilotage.] 1. The pilot's skill or knowledge, as of
coasts, rocks, bars, and channels

tr.v. pi·lot·ed, pi·lot·ing, pi·lots

1. To serve as the pilot of.
2. To steer or control the course of.

"piloting" means control of, steering if you will.

"pilotage" means navigation by landmarks.


Gee, I guess all the pilots of the world need to update their definition base
to conform to yours........... nah.

Shen

DR practice
 

Subject: DR practice
From: (JAXAshby)
Date: 08/08/2004 07:59 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

sounds like jeffies be miffed that I repeated the thought that catamarans are
the fake tits of the sailing world. All hard edges and sharp corner, overly
large for the sake of being overly large, without additional function but
with
reduced sensitivity.

From: "Jeff Morris"
Date: 8/8/2004 10:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

Google? I just pull a copy of Bowditch off the rack. (You didn't notice I
used
the '62 edition, not the online 2002 edition.) You're the one who cites
his
online Webster every other post.


Sounds like Jaxass doesn't know what "Bowditch" is.

Shen

DR practice
 

You're just insanely jealous that I have a boat that's faster, bigger, and
better made than anything you'll ever own.

Its also pretty clear you've never sailed on a cat, or you'd realize that
they're a lot more seaworthy than you think.




"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
sounds like jeffies be miffed that I repeated the thought that catamarans are
the fake tits of the sailing world. All hard edges and sharp corner, overly
large for the sake of being overly large, without additional function but with
reduced sensitivity.

From: "Jeff Morris"
Date: 8/8/2004 10:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

Google? I just pull a copy of Bowditch off the rack. (You didn't notice I
used
the '62 edition, not the online 2002 edition.) You're the one who cites his
online Webster every other post.

Speaking of piloting, have you figured out yet which light you were looking
for
at Hatteras when you wanted to turn back? Three GPS's and a clear night, and
you couldn't find your way! And you still can't tell us where you were?
What
a Putz!




"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
jeffies, "piloting" means the steering of the craft, while "pilotage" means
the
navigation of the craft by use of landmarks.

google to your heart's content but that is the reality of the situation, IF
*you* were to ever in your lifetime talk to someone who has done both.

jeffies? are you trying again to prove to the world how limited you are in
native candle power?

Only a landlubber would use a "dictionary" definition for a nautical term.
It
figures that all of jaxie's nautical knowlege is from Webster's.

The rest of us, however, use a proper reference, such as Bowditch.

From the 1962 edition:
"Piloting (or pilotage) is navigation involving frequent or continuous
determination of position or a line of position relative to geographic
points, to a high order of accuracy. It is practiced in the vicinity of
land, dangers, aids to navigation, etc. and requires good judgment and
almost constant attention and alertness on the part of the navigator."





"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
No difference at all. Sometimes I'm using piloting and others I'm using
pilotage .... them's the same ting.

Shen

here ya go, shen. be enlightened.

pilotage

\Pi"lot*age\, n. [Cf. F. pilotage.] 1. The pilot's skill or knowledge,
as
of
coasts, rocks, bars, and channels

tr.v. pi·lot·ed, pi·lot·ing, pi·lots

1. To serve as the pilot of.
2. To steer or control the course of.

"piloting" means control of, steering if you will.

"pilotage" means navigation by landmarks.

DR practice
 

shen, nobody who knows what the terms mean uses them incorrectly. if you did
use them around people who know what they mean, they would correct you at least
by the third time you misused them. Drunken talk in a neighborhood bar doesn't
count as "using them all the time".

Sometimes I'm using piloting and others I'm using
pilotage .

*you*, shen, don't use either one, ever. go crawl back in your hole.



Actually I use both, even by your definitions, all the time, which is one
reason I'm not hung up on some limited usage of the terms.

Shen

DR practice
 

Gee, I guess all the pilots of the world need to update their definition base
to conform to yours

nah, they long ago knew the meaning of the terms.


Shen

DR practice
 

You're just insanely jealous that I have a boat that's faster, bigger, and
better made than anything you'll ever own.

I now own, and have owned for well more than a decade, a boat longer and more
seaworthy than yours. It is narrower, though, for I am not afraid my boat
might tip over if I sail out near the edge of the Earth.

DR practice
 

Its also pretty clear you've never sailed on a cat, or you'd realize that
they're a lot more seaworthy than you think.

I sailed one offshore last weekend. catamarans don't like quartering seas.
lots of space, though. hard to dock in a cross wind. a bit jerky of motion in
cross seas.

DR practice
 

Subject: DR practice
From: (JAXAshby)
Date: 08/08/2004 14:06 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Gee, I guess all the pilots of the world need to update their definition
base
to conform to yours

nah, they long ago knew the meaning of the terms.


Shen



BG I'm glad you finally realize that.
Now we just need to correct your erroneous interpretations and you can start
learning.

Shen

DR practice
 

Right jaxie, how far "offshore" did you get in the 48 hours between your posts?
And what kind of cat was it?

Quartering seas are no problem at all for most cats, anyone who makes that claim
probably never has been on one, or has a very weak stomach indeed. Beam seas
are the worst, because they will raise one hull and dip the other. Certainly
cats will have a "herky-jerky" motion compared to a heavy monohull, but after a
while you don't notice it at all. I won't claim that all conditions are handled
perfectly by a cat, but we've yet to encounter a situation that we think would
be handled better by a monohull.

I suppose if you don't know how to use a twin engine docking can be difficult,
but most cats are far easier to dock than monohulls. You must have very little
experience docking if this was a problem for you.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
Its also pretty clear you've never sailed on a cat, or you'd realize that
they're a lot more seaworthy than you think.

I sailed one offshore last weekend. catamarans don't like quartering seas.
lots of space, though. hard to dock in a cross wind. a bit jerky of motion
in
cross seas.

DR practice
 

And what kind of boat is that, Jaxie? RB claimed it was an Irwin, but I don't
think you'd have anything that nice.



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
You're just insanely jealous that I have a boat that's faster, bigger, and
better made than anything you'll ever own.

I now own, and have owned for well more than a decade, a boat longer and more
seaworthy than yours. It is narrower, though, for I am not afraid my boat
might tip over if I sail out near the edge of the Earth.

DR practice
 

bject: DR practice
From: (JAXAshby)
Date: 08/08/2004 14:05 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

shen, nobody who knows what the terms mean uses them incorrectly. if you did
use them around people who know what they mean, they would correct you at
least
by the third time you misused them. Drunken talk in a neighborhood bar
doesn't
count as "using them all the time".

Sometimes I'm using piloting and others I'm using
pilotage .

*you*, shen, don't use either one, ever. go crawl back in your hole.



Actually I use both, even by your definitions, all the time, which is one
reason I'm not hung up on some limited usage of the terms.

ZING! Went right over your head, didn't it.

Shen

DR practice
 

shen, my use of the terms matches the informed use, and has for several
decades.

Gee, I guess all the pilots of the world need to update their definition
base
to conform to yours

nah, they long ago knew the meaning of the terms.


Shen



BG I'm glad you finally realize that.
Now we just need to correct your erroneous interpretations and you can start
learning.

Shen

DR practice
 

Right jaxie, how far "offshore" did you get in the 48 hours between your
posts?

not far, an over nighter.

DR practice
 

Quartering seas are no problem at all for most cats,

really? a sea that hits first one hull and shortly after the other hull is "no
problem at all for most cats"? mono's sure as hell don't move around like that
and the seas we saw were light.

has a very weak stomach indeed

I wasn't talking seasickness. I was talking about the yawing of the craft as
quartering seas passed.

Beam seas
are the worst, because they will raise one hull and dip the other.

maybe for seasickness. but cats don't want to track straight in quartering
seas. can't use the autopilot because of it.

cats will have a "herky-jerky" motion compared to a heavy monohull, but after
a
while you don't notice it at all.

like the heat in Arizona? I suppose.

we've yet to encounter a situation that we think would
be handled better by a monohull.

try quartering seas.

I suppose if you don't know how to use a twin engine docking can be
difficult,
but most cats are far easier to dock than monohulls.

in 20 knot cross winds? the long term _owner_ of the boat couldn't do it, and
we had help from five people on the fuel dock to get away.

You must have very little
experience docking if this was a problem for you.

it wasn't me trying to dock the boat, it was the long term owner, who btw
showed himself to be a fine sailor at sea. He didn't seem to lack any
experience or judgement.

DR practice
 

And what kind of boat is that, Jaxie? RB claimed it was an Irwin, but I
don't
think you'd have anything that nice.


a boat that when I sailed it offshore in 25 knots and 4 to 6 foot seas I did
not feel was unduely stressed.

DR practice
 

Subject: DR practice
From: (JAXAshby)
Date: 08/08/2004 15:56 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

shen, my use of the terms matches the informed use, and has for several
decades.

Zing. Informed what? Novice sailors?

Shen

Gee, I guess all the pilots of the world need to update their definition
base
to conform to yours

nah, they long ago knew the meaning of the terms.


Shen



BG I'm glad you finally realize that.
Now we just need to correct your erroneous interpretations and you can start
learning.

Shen

DR practice
 

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
And what kind of boat is that, Jaxie? RB claimed it was an Irwin, but I
don't
think you'd have anything that nice.


a boat that when I sailed it offshore in 25 knots and 4 to 6 foot seas I did
not feel was unduely stressed.

Why would anyone feel unduly stressed in those conditions? You must have a
very low tolerance. But then, you were so stressed by a calm on Long Island
Sound that you called the Coast Guard for help.

DR practice
 

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
Quartering seas are no problem at all for most cats,

really? a sea that hits first one hull and shortly after the other hull is
"no
problem at all for most cats"? mono's sure as hell don't move around like
that
and the seas we saw were light.

If you had a problem, you don't know how to steer a boat. Properly handled, a
cat can be rock stead in a quartering sea.

Of course, you don't even know what type of cat it was.


has a very weak stomach indeed

I wasn't talking seasickness. I was talking about the yawing of the craft as
quartering seas passed.

Yaw? You had yaw problems? In a 4 foot sea? I'll admit my cat yaws a bit
sliding down 10 foot following seas at 13 knots. If you had yaw problems you
definitely don't know how to steer a boat!



Beam seas
are the worst, because they will raise one hull and dip the other.

maybe for seasickness. but cats don't want to track straight in quartering
seas. can't use the autopilot because of it.

In a 4 foot sea? You don't know how to use an autopilot! What type was it?
What was the boat?



cats will have a "herky-jerky" motion compared to a heavy monohull, but after
a
while you don't notice it at all.

like the heat in Arizona? I suppose.

we've yet to encounter a situation that we think would
be handled better by a monohull.

try quartering seas.

I've done it many times. I have put about 10,000 miles on my cat, more than
half in the open water. You took one trip (so you claim) in a boat where you
don't know that type it was.




I suppose if you don't know how to use a twin engine docking can be
difficult,
but most cats are far easier to dock than monohulls.

in 20 knot cross winds? the long term _owner_ of the boat couldn't do it, and
we had help from five people on the fuel dock to get away.

What? Then you had a boat full of incompetant fools! Getting into a tight
face dock can be a pain without help, but getting off a dock, even pinned by a
strong wind, is no problem with twin engines. Maybe you don't know about
spring lines.



You must have very little
experience docking if this was a problem for you.

it wasn't me trying to dock the boat, it was the long term owner, who btw
showed himself to be a fine sailor at sea. He didn't seem to lack any
experience or judgement.

Except he couldn't get off the dock and he couldn't handle a quartering sea.
And you don't know what type of boat it was. Sounds like another one of your
bull**** stories, jaxie.

DR practice
 

a boat that when I sailed it offshore in 25 knots and 4 to 6 foot seas I
did
not feel was unduely stressed.

Why would anyone feel unduly stressed in those conditions?

if they were in a catamaran, maybe?

DR practice
 

mono's sure as hell don't move around like
that
and the seas we saw were light.

If you had a problem, you don't know how to steer a boat.

well, the mono's I have steered tracked rather much better in 8 foot quartering
seas than that cat did in light quartering seas.

jeffies, are you saying that the skill required to steer a cat in light seas is
much greater than the skill required to steer a mono in 8 foot seas?

DR practice
 

Of course, you don't even know what type of cat it was.

I don't? you mean the name on the side of the boat was not what the boat
really was?

DR practice
 

If you had yaw problems you
definitely don't know how to steer a boat!


ah, yes, that's it. I don't have the skills to steer a cat in quartering seas,
skills much harder to master than steering a mono in quartering seas of greater
height.

DR practice
 

In a 4 foot sea? You don't know how to use an autopilot! What type was it?
What was the boat?

you mean there is more to using a name brand autopilot in quartering seas on a
catamaran than turning it on, aiming it and engaging it? Tell me, jeffies, was
I supposed to caress the autopilot first, say some prayers, maye promise it a
hooker when we got to port. enlighten us jeffies, how is an autopilot on a
catamaran difference from an autopilot on a mono?

DR practice
 

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
In a 4 foot sea? You don't know how to use an autopilot! What type was it?
What was the boat?

you mean there is more to using a name brand autopilot in quartering seas on a
catamaran than turning it on, aiming it and engaging it? Tell me, jeffies,
was
I supposed to caress the autopilot first, say some prayers, maye promise it a
hooker when we got to port. enlighten us jeffies, how is an autopilot on a
catamaran difference from an autopilot on a mono?

Well I guess that says it all. If you never heard of the various settings on a
autopilot, then you wouldn't know how to use it, would you? We'll just have to
add this to the list of things you don't know how to use, jaxie.

DR practice
 

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
If you had yaw problems you
definitely don't know how to steer a boat!


ah, yes, that's it. I don't have the skills to steer a cat in quartering
seas,
skills much harder to master than steering a mono in quartering seas of
greater
height.

Yup. For once you have the courage to admit the truth. Cats are actually
easier, but it does take a little bit of skill.

DR practice
 

Well I guess that says it all. If you never heard of the various settings on
a
autopilot, then you wouldn't know how to use it, would you? We'll just have
to
add this to the list of things you don't know how to use, jaxie.


ah, yes, jeffies, which settings is that which makes a catamaran track
straighter when one hull -- off center -- takes a quartering wave, followed a
fraction of a second later when the other hull -- off center the other side --
takes the same quartering wave?

jeffies, are you sure you know what an autopilot is?

DR practice
 

so, cats act weird in quartering seas but are much easier to steer than mono
hulls which don't act weird in quartering seas?

jeffies, are you sure you know what a quartering sea is?

If you had yaw problems you
definitely don't know how to steer a boat!


ah, yes, that's it. I don't have the skills to steer a cat in quartering
seas,
skills much harder to master than steering a mono in quartering seas of
greater
height.

Yup. For once you have the courage to admit the truth. Cats are actually
easier, but it does take a little bit of skill.

DR practice
 

No. You act weird in quartering seas, jaxie. Since you don't even know what
kind of cat you were on, there's no way to generalize your fumbling to all cats.



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
so, cats act weird in quartering seas but are much easier to steer than mono
hulls which don't act weird in quartering seas?

jeffies, are you sure you know what a quartering sea is?

If you had yaw problems you
definitely don't know how to steer a boat!


ah, yes, that's it. I don't have the skills to steer a cat in quartering
seas,
skills much harder to master than steering a mono in quartering seas of
greater
height.

Yup. For once you have the courage to admit the truth. Cats are actually
easier, but it does take a little bit of skill.

DR practice
 

My autopilot tracks just fine in 4 four foot quartering waves. Rock steady. If
yours can't, you don't know how to use it.

In 10 foot seas it lags behind a bit when surfing down the waves, and there have
been a few times that I've hand steered to give it s steadier ride.

It sure looks like you didn't know what you were doing there jaxie.


"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
Well I guess that says it all. If you never heard of the various settings on
a
autopilot, then you wouldn't know how to use it, would you? We'll just have
to
add this to the list of things you don't know how to use, jaxie.


ah, yes, jeffies, which settings is that which makes a catamaran track
straighter when one hull -- off center -- takes a quartering wave, followed a
fraction of a second later when the other hull -- off center the other side --
takes the same quartering wave?

jeffies, are you sure you know what an autopilot is?

DR practice
 

Subject: DR practice
From: (JAXAshby)
Date: 08/08/2004 17:28 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

the FAA, shen, back several decades. the US navy, shen, back a couple
centuries.


ROFL Since this is about "boating" we could care less what the FAA has to say.
As for the Navy .... let's just say they have their own language which isn't
always in tune with that of the overall maritime world ..... no problem.
So tell me Jax .... what do "Marine Pilots" say?

Shen

DR practice
 

No. You act weird in quartering seas, jaxie. Since you don't even know what
kind of cat you were on, there's no way to generalize your fumbling to all
cats.


jeffies, I know what boat I was on. are *you* saying that SOME cats are pieces
of squat at sea while other cats are acceptable sailboats?

yeah, THAT is what you are saying.

jeffies, which kind of cat do *you* sail?

DR practice
 

My autopilot tracks just fine in 4 four foot quartering waves. Rock steady.
If
yours can't, you don't know how to use it.

jeffies, the autopilot tracked CON FRICKEN TINOUSLY, and even then a little
late. Steering by hand was quicker,more steady, less noisy.

maybe *you* didn't notice?

DR practice
 

ROFL Since this is about "boating" we could care less what the FAA has to
say.

of course. the FAA knows nothing about navigation.

As for the Navy .... let's just say they have their own language which isn't
always in tune with that of the overall maritime world

of course. The US Navy knows nothing about navigation.

no problem.

everyone is glad you feel that is "no problem", shen.

So tell me Jax .... what do "Marine Pilots" say?


drunk in the bar with you, or sober two days later?

Shen

DR practice
 

ubject: DR practice
From: (JAXAshby)
Date: 08/08/2004 19:41 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

ROFL Since this is about "boating" we could care less what the FAA has to
say.

of course. the FAA knows nothing about navigation.



As for the Navy .... let's just say they have their own language which isn't
always in tune with that of the overall maritime world

of course. The US Navy knows nothing about navigation.

ROFL Lame, jax, real lame, even for you.

no problem.

everyone is glad you feel that is "no problem", shen.

t'isn't. I even use right/left rudder and number the mooring lines when I'm
playin with them ..... kinda like the old phrase "different long splices".

So tell me Jax .... what do "Marine Pilots" say?


drunk in the bar with you, or sober two days later?

drunk,sober or hung over ....what do they say?

Shen

DR practice
 

shen says "uncle", as witness his post below.

damn. and just after he learned that the sun is reference point in navigation,
too. I was hoping he *might* have learned of the term "celestial navigation",
but it seems no.

oh, well.

ROFL Since this is about "boating" we could care less what the FAA has to
say.

of course. the FAA knows nothing about navigation.



As for the Navy .... let's just say they have their own language which
isn't
always in tune with that of the overall maritime world

of course. The US Navy knows nothing about navigation.

ROFL Lame, jax, real lame, even for you.

no problem.

everyone is glad you feel that is "no problem", shen.

t'isn't. I even use right/left rudder and number the mooring lines when I'm
playin with them ..... kinda like the old phrase "different long splices".

So tell me Jax .... what do "Marine Pilots" say?


drunk in the bar with you, or sober two days later?

drunk,sober or hung over ....what do they say?

Shen

DR practice
 

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
No. You act weird in quartering seas, jaxie. Since you don't even know what
kind of cat you were on, there's no way to generalize your fumbling to all
cats.


jeffies, I know what boat I was on. are *you* saying that SOME cats are
pieces
of squat at sea while other cats are acceptable sailboats?


I'm sure it was a fine craft until you stepped on board.

DR practice
 

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
My autopilot tracks just fine in 4 four foot quartering waves. Rock steady.
If
yours can't, you don't know how to use it.

jeffies, the autopilot tracked CON FRICKEN TINOUSLY, and even then a little
late. Steering by hand was quicker,more steady, less noisy.

maybe *you* didn't notice?

You're the one who said you couldn't steer the boat.

DR practice
 

You're the one who said you couldn't steer the boat.

you live in a strange universe, jeffies. that is not what I said. I did say
the boat wallowed around in quartering seas and was hard to keep going in a
straight line without continuous steering.

I understand this is common for cats, and cat owner sooner begin to think of
this as "normal".

DR practice
 

So you're saying the autopilot handled it just fine, but you thought there was
too much rudder action. And it was too difficult for a novice like you to hand
steer? Now we understand, you want a heavy displacement, full keel boat that
will plod along at three knots even if you're dead drunk.


"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
You're the one who said you couldn't steer the boat.

you live in a strange universe, jeffies. that is not what I said. I did say
the boat wallowed around in quartering seas and was hard to keep going in a
straight line without continuous steering.

I understand this is common for cats, and cat owner sooner begin to think of
this as "normal".