DR practice
 

"Flying Tadpole" wrote in message

| A gross and cruel libel on turtles.

I got permission from 'Scuttles" the turtle in my brother's Koi Pond.... I
bribed him with a lettuce leaf.

CM

DR practice
 

Interesting. So what your saying is, that airplanes are affected by
ocean currents. Just where is it you say you "fly"?

otn

JAXAshby wrote:
whatever their speed and direction relative to your speed and direction. is
that hard for you to understand, over the knee?


But to claim that there is "no qualitative difference between navigating" a
plane and boat just shows you have no practical experience doing either.


quite the contrary. it shows I have done both.

actually, in air nav you don't have to make as much allowance for winds,

for

the speed of the an airplane is many times the speed of the winds, for the
aircraft flights under discussion here.


Oh? How much allowance do you give for currents on these airplanes?

otn

DR practice
 

DR practice
 

This whole portion of this thread has come about, due to two simple post:
1. Jax took umbrage with Joe's usage of the term "DR"
2. I told jax he had one definition of the term "DR", but not the only
definition.

If you go to various source materials, you will generally find three
terms being used .... "dead reckoning", "deduced reckoning", and "ded
reckoning".
In general, you will find that all relate to a basic form of navigation
which has been in use for centuries and the differences in definition
and usage of the terms tends to vary from one source material to another
and possibly from earlier additions to newer, one group of mariners to
the next, etc.
It's not really important how *YOU* define or use these 3 terms, as they
are all closely related to the same basic navigation method. All that's
really important is that each individual in the discussion, knows how
the other is applying the 3 different/similar, terms, or if they all
mean the same.
Some people like to keep the whole process limited to
speed/direction/time, while others will introduce winds/currents and a
host of other factors, into the mix.
There is NO, one, correct definition. There are however, a number of
related and sometimes contradictory definitions and to be honest, for
me, you can use which ever one you want .... as soon as I realize yours
may be different than mine, a simple question can get me to talk about
"DR", on the same plane as you are.

EG course, trying to talk to jax on the same plane is like trying to
ride a roller coaster with no restraint mechanism.

Main message: People will use the term "DR" differently .... it's no big
deal.

otn

DR practice
 

Stick to what you know. Mathematically, incorporating additional
information (even if it has some uncertainty) can inproves the error
estimate. While aircraft may make leeway and have wind that is not
usually incorportaed in theit DR. But you knew that right?

Cheers


nav, are you saying that making more guesses *improves* the accuracy of prior
guesses?

mathematically, additional guesses degrades the accuracy of prior guesses.

what's more, aircraft also make leeway and also have current and actually have
air density differences (similar effect as the tide you mention re boats)


List Jackass and listen good. DR in flying is just compass and speed. In
marine navigation it is compass, speed, leeway, current and tide. By
allowing for these variables accuracy is much greater.


Cheers

DR practice
 

What is this extraordinary "science stuff" you know? How to ride a
bicycle perchance?

Cheers

JAXAshby wrote:

so, nav, because I know that science stuff while you don't that means "that
science stuff" does not affect where *you* are when *you* are wondering around
in a fog with only a compass and speed indicator?

how sad that you think ignorance protects you.


Yes that about sums your knowledge up.

Cheers

JAXAshby wrote:


yeah, all that physics science stuff.

DR practice
 

Not only that, tide and current are known to reasonable accuracy whereas
wind speed and direction are unknown except maybe at the airport...

Cheers


Jeff Morris wrote:

That fact the you "state it" doesn't make it so. The crosswind/crosscurrent
calculation may be the same, but there are lots of "qualitative" differences
between air navigation and nautical navigation. DR may have similar meanings
and similar problems in both, but navigation in general involves many
techniques, used in various combinations, as appropriate.

For example, how do you take soundings in a plane? Can you hear foghorns? Can
you read the windspeed from a lobster pot? DR by itself is just one technique,
and one that admittedly has certain limitations. But combined with other
techniques it can be quite useful.


"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...

jeffies, I stated from the get-go that there is no qualitative difference
between air and sea navigation.

It's a physics thing. get your wife to explain it to you.


So tell us please, jaxie, what is the difference? So far, you have only
demonstrated your ignorance in both air and nautical navigation. Why don't
you
try for space navigation?


"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...

jeffies, don't comment on how aircraft fly. you don't have a clew.

you should know **if** you did have that degree in physics you claim you

have,

but you don't.


Its very simple, jaxie: a 20 knot crosswind affects a 100 knot airplane

about

the same way that a 1 knot cross current affects a 5 knot sailboat.

There

is a
major difference, however: the wind can change dramatically with little
notice
and no way to detect it, resulting in huge potential errors for the plane,
while
the current is usually well behaved, especially if you understand the

local

conditions.

You never have done either, have you jaxie?



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...

jeffies, pahleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze ask your wife to read every last

thing

you

write **before** you hit the post key. that way we won't see the trash

you

wrote below.


PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAASSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

SSEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE. okay?


There are no aircraft flights under discussion here. However, if we're
talking
about planes where electronics might not be used, then the speed is

probably

rather low, and the wind speed could easily be 20% of the plane speed.
Worse,
you could have a significant wind shift and have no idea it happened.

In

a

boat, the currents are usually under a knot, and rarely is the

deviation

from

the prediction more than knot. You seem to be basing your entire claim

on

the
possibility of unexpected 10 knot current in totally random directions.

This

show your complete lack of experience.

Further, your completely ignoring that fact that for piloting, a major

part

of
navigation, there are many techniques that have no analogue in flying.

But

you
wouldn't know anything about this, would you?




"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...

But to claim that there is "no qualitative difference between

navigating"

a

plane and boat just shows you have no practical experience doing

either.

quite the contrary. it shows I have done both.

actually, in air nav you don't have to make as much allowance for

winds,

for

the speed of the an airplane is many times the speed of the winds,

for

the

aircraft flights under discussion here.

DR practice
 

JAXAshby wrote:
nav, are you saying that making more guesses *improves* the accuracy
of prior guesses?

mathematically, additional guesses degrades the accuracy of prior
guesses.

It's a refinement of the same guess. If you know you're in a 1kt current, a
guess based purely on your steered course and speed would be less accurate
than if you refined the guess by accounting for the current.


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk

DR practice
 

Subject: DR practice
From: (JAXAshby)
Date: 07/18/2004 17:31 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

One
reason straight DR in zero visibility may be frowned on with planes.

no, the reason it is illegal is that you can not know where you are. period,
as in can not.

DR in a boat is okay when you are hundreds of miles from any rocks. It is
not
okay when there is anything around to hit.

In all the years you've harped on this subject, it's become painfully clear you
have not and can not grasp the basic practices of "DR".
You've read somplace that the term should only be ded reckoning and that it
only involves speed,time, and heading, and will go to your death bed "knowing"
that anything else is sacrilege.
Problem is, most who spend any time on the water have learned to use other
things to help improve their "DR" plots so that they can safely navigate where
you would never tread.
Problem is, these things don't fit in your narrow view of DR, so you can't
accept them as being DR or being useful and trying to explain these things to
you is a waste of time as you can't seem to comprehend them or make use of
them.
In reality, you need to do or watch someone do these things, so you can learn
how to do them but odds of you ever doing that are slim to none.

Don't waste your time responding, as I know you will not have understood the
point being made.

Shen

PS recreational boats regularly hit rocks even with gps

DR practice
 

Jaxie's simplistic mind can't cope with mixing two concepts. He confuses "using
DR" with "relying 100% on DR." He never figured out that combining DR with
other info, such as observing lobster pots, depth soundings, and fog signals is
generally adequate.

He seems terrified of coastal cruising, but at the same time claims that
learning both DR and piloting techniques is worthless. My favorite "jaxisms"
involve his misunderstanding of piloting and his belief that compasses are
worthless.

-------------------

On Navigation (or is he talking about snakes?):
This one kept us going for a month or so - Jax insists that piloting skills are
not needed in sight of land.

"scootss, you need *piloting* to "get around" in the Cheasepeake? All that
water and land and islands and markers and lights and boas confuse you?"

-------------------

Just to make sure he meant that:

you claimed that
piloting skills are not needed for sailing waters like LIS.

"They are not. You can see everything easily. Getting lost on western LIS is
impossible (unless you're dumb enough to go out in one of the rare fogs.)"

-----------
... Somewhere in there you implied
that taking a course on navigation was a total waste of time and money.

"You need a nav course to see a daymarker a half mile away? (besides, one of the
**serious** problems of a nav course -- as taught by the USPS -- is that a
compass and knot log is all you need to avoid hitting the rocks in a fog.)"

------------------------
on compasses and navigation:
Jax has a pathological fear of using a compass. Since he never learned any
piloting skills, he believes the compass is useless:

"a compass never has told you anything other than which way is North and so
never was worth much as a "navigation" tool."
---------
"no, jeffie, this the point that JAX with the experience tells you without that
you can't navigate with a compass."

--------------------------------
On variation & compasses:
Since he never uses a compass, he doesn't understand variation:

I think it's about 14 degree east here in nyc.

That's strange, my chart of New York City says
"Var 13 degrees 15 minutes WEST"

jeff, if you say it's west instead of east, I say okay. I use charts of nyc
area to know where the rocks are. Compass isn't much use there, is it?

--------------------------
On compass dip and variation, he thinks dip is built into the compass:

"markie, dip is a function of the compass construction. Variation is a function
of the Earth. Anyone who claims to be "The Navigator" should know this, don't
you think?"

DR practice
 

EG Jeff, I think you got the makins of a book here.
Title page:
JAXAshby Rules of Navigation
or
Navigation By Dummies

footnote: all rules compiled from FAA regulations
caution: nothing contained in this book should be taken seriously,
except by those exclusively using their backyard wading pool (maximum
water depth, 4") for their boating needs.

Jeff Morris wrote:
Jaxie's simplistic mind can't cope with mixing two concepts. He confuses "using
DR" with "relying 100% on DR." He never figured out that combining DR with
other info, such as observing lobster pots, depth soundings, and fog signals is
generally adequate.

He seems terrified of coastal cruising, but at the same time claims that
learning both DR and piloting techniques is worthless. My favorite "jaxisms"
involve his misunderstanding of piloting and his belief that compasses are
worthless.

-------------------

On Navigation (or is he talking about snakes?):
This one kept us going for a month or so - Jax insists that piloting skills are
not needed in sight of land.

"scootss, you need *piloting* to "get around" in the Cheasepeake? All that
water and land and islands and markers and lights and boas confuse you?"

-------------------

Just to make sure he meant that:


you claimed that
piloting skills are not needed for sailing waters like LIS.


"They are not. You can see everything easily. Getting lost on western LIS is
impossible (unless you're dumb enough to go out in one of the rare fogs.)"

-----------

... Somewhere in there you implied
that taking a course on navigation was a total waste of time and money.


"You need a nav course to see a daymarker a half mile away? (besides, one of the
**serious** problems of a nav course -- as taught by the USPS -- is that a
compass and knot log is all you need to avoid hitting the rocks in a fog.)"

------------------------
on compasses and navigation:
Jax has a pathological fear of using a compass. Since he never learned any
piloting skills, he believes the compass is useless:

"a compass never has told you anything other than which way is North and so
never was worth much as a "navigation" tool."
---------
"no, jeffie, this the point that JAX with the experience tells you without that
you can't navigate with a compass."

--------------------------------
On variation & compasses:
Since he never uses a compass, he doesn't understand variation:

I think it's about 14 degree east here in nyc.


That's strange, my chart of New York City says
"Var 13 degrees 15 minutes WEST"


jeff, if you say it's west instead of east, I say okay. I use charts of nyc
area to know where the rocks are. Compass isn't much use there, is it?

--------------------------
On compass dip and variation, he thinks dip is built into the compass:

"markie, dip is a function of the compass construction. Variation is a function
of the Earth. Anyone who claims to be "The Navigator" should know this, don't
you think?"

DR practice
 

it
only involves speed,time, and heading,

shen, that *IS* the definition of ded reckoning. what you describe "improved"
DR is in fact pilotage, a whole different breed of cat.

DR practice
 

Jaxie's simplistic mind can't cope with mixing two concepts. He confuses
"using
DR" with "relying 100% on DR." He never figured out that combining DR with
other info, such as observing lobster pots, depth soundings, and fog signals
is
generally adequate.


jeffies, what you describe above is not DR, but rather pilotage. HUGE
difference in the number or rocks a boat might hit.

DR practice
 

change to FAA, all physicists on the planet, and all knowledgeable mariners.

EG Jeff, I think you got the makins of a book here.
Title page:
JAXAshby Rules of Navigation
or
Navigation By Dummies

footnote: all rules compiled from FAA regulations
caution: nothing contained in this book should be taken seriously,
except by those exclusively using their backyard wading pool (maximum
water depth, 4") for their boating needs.

Jeff Morris wrote:
Jaxie's simplistic mind can't cope with mixing two concepts. He confuses
"using
DR" with "relying 100% on DR." He never figured out that combining DR
with
other info, such as observing lobster pots, depth soundings, and fog
signals is
generally adequate.

He seems terrified of coastal cruising, but at the same time claims that
learning both DR and piloting techniques is worthless. My favorite
"jaxisms"
involve his misunderstanding of piloting and his belief that compasses are
worthless.

-------------------

On Navigation (or is he talking about snakes?):
This one kept us going for a month or so - Jax insists that piloting skills
are
not needed in sight of land.

"scootss, you need *piloting* to "get around" in the Cheasepeake? All that
water and land and islands and markers and lights and boas confuse you?"

-------------------

Just to make sure he meant that:


you claimed that
piloting skills are not needed for sailing waters like LIS.


"They are not. You can see everything easily. Getting lost on western LIS
is
impossible (unless you're dumb enough to go out in one of the rare fogs.)"

-----------

... Somewhere in there you implied
that taking a course on navigation was a total waste of time and money.


"You need a nav course to see a daymarker a half mile away? (besides, one
of the
**serious** problems of a nav course -- as taught by the USPS -- is that a
compass and knot log is all you need to avoid hitting the rocks in a fog.)"

------------------------
on compasses and navigation:
Jax has a pathological fear of using a compass. Since he never learned any
piloting skills, he believes the compass is useless:

"a compass never has told you anything other than which way is North and so
never was worth much as a "navigation" tool."
---------
"no, jeffie, this the point that JAX with the experience tells you without
that
you can't navigate with a compass."

--------------------------------
On variation & compasses:
Since he never uses a compass, he doesn't understand variation:

I think it's about 14 degree east here in nyc.


That's strange, my chart of New York City says
"Var 13 degrees 15 minutes WEST"


jeff, if you say it's west instead of east, I say okay. I use charts of
nyc
area to know where the rocks are. Compass isn't much use there, is it?

--------------------------
On compass dip and variation, he thinks dip is built into the compass:

"markie, dip is a function of the compass construction. Variation is a
function
of the Earth. Anyone who claims to be "The Navigator" should know this,
don't
you think?"

DR practice
 

Subject: DR practice
From: (JAXAshby)
Date: 08/07/2004 07:02 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

it
only involves speed,time, and heading,

shen, that *IS* the definition of ded reckoning. what you describe
"improved"
DR is in fact pilotage, a whole different breed of cat.



No jaxass. That is YOUR limited definition of DR.
What I described is NOT piloting, as piloting involves fixes.
In truth, the two can be and frequently are, used in conjunction, but that's
beyond you -you're still at the "definition" stage.

Shen

DR practice
 

DR, even by your definition, is one component of Piloting. While DR is not
"perfect" (not that anything is) it is still useful. But since you don't know
how DR or any other form of piloting works, you'll never understand.



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
Jaxie's simplistic mind can't cope with mixing two concepts. He confuses
"using
DR" with "relying 100% on DR." He never figured out that combining DR with
other info, such as observing lobster pots, depth soundings, and fog signals
is
generally adequate.


jeffies, what you describe above is not DR, but rather pilotage. HUGE
difference in the number or rocks a boat might hit.

DR practice
 

pilotAGE, not pilotING. there is a difference, dood.

What I described is NOT piloting,

DR practice
 

dood, if you are taking fixes on marker buoys, bottom depth, sounds from shore,
smells from onshore restaurants, THEN you are usaging pilotAGE, **not** deduced
reckoning.

this is easy stuff, shen. pay attention.

What I described is NOT piloting, as piloting involves fixes.

DR practice
 

now, listen up, shen, one more fricken time. **IT IS PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO
KNOW WHERE YOU ARE MOVING TO/FROM RELATIVE TO THE WATER AROUND YOU WITHOUT
**OUTSIDE** REFERENCES.

that is a fact of physics, shen. if you personally have so far been lucky to
have not crashed into anything when you were drunkenly, blindly wandering
around in a fog in a rocky channel, that means only that you were lucky. That
time. you didn't know where you were even if you thought you did. you just
got lucky, that is all.

it is a physics thing, shen. you know, those damned laws of physics as voted
on by corrupt politicians.


it
only involves speed,time, and heading,

shen, that *IS* the definition of ded reckoning. what you describe
"improved"
DR is in fact pilotage, a whole different breed of cat.



No jaxass. That is YOUR limited definition of DR.
What I described is NOT piloting, as piloting involves fixes.
In truth, the two can be and frequently are, used in conjunction, but that's
beyond you -you're still at the "definition" stage.

Shen

DR practice
 

Hey jaxie, its also physically impossible to know absolutely where you are even
with outside references. Its all a matter of how much uncertainty you're
willing to accept.



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
now, listen up, shen, one more fricken time. **IT IS PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO
KNOW WHERE YOU ARE MOVING TO/FROM RELATIVE TO THE WATER AROUND YOU WITHOUT
**OUTSIDE** REFERENCES.

that is a fact of physics, shen. if you personally have so far been lucky to
have not crashed into anything when you were drunkenly, blindly wandering
around in a fog in a rocky channel, that means only that you were lucky. That
time. you didn't know where you were even if you thought you did. you just
got lucky, that is all.

it is a physics thing, shen. you know, those damned laws of physics as voted
on by corrupt politicians.


it
only involves speed,time, and heading,

shen, that *IS* the definition of ded reckoning. what you describe
"improved"
DR is in fact pilotage, a whole different breed of cat.



No jaxass. That is YOUR limited definition of DR.
What I described is NOT piloting, as piloting involves fixes.
In truth, the two can be and frequently are, used in conjunction, but that's
beyond you -you're still at the "definition" stage.

Shen

DR practice
 

Subject: DR practice
From: (JAXAshby)
Date: 08/07/2004 14:22 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

pilotAGE, not pilotING. there is a difference, dood.

What I described is NOT piloting,


ROFL Maybe you'd best say what you're talking about then since you're soo hung
up on these definitions.
Obviously you aren't discussing my pay scale........ then again......

Shen

DR practice
 

ubject: DR practice
From: (JAXAshby)
Date: 08/07/2004 14:24 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

dood, if you are taking fixes on marker buoys, bottom depth, sounds from
shore,
smells from onshore restaurants, THEN you are usaging pilotAGE, **not**
deduced
reckoning.

this is easy stuff, shen. pay attention.

A fix using marker buoys, it piloting.
Using soundings, sounds from shore or smells from onshore restaurants is part
of DR, as they don't give you a fix, they just aid in narrowing the error in
your DR.
Course, there are times when you can use soundings to get a fix, but as per
usual, that's beyond your understanding.

Your right, this is easy stuff, but obviously beyond your knowledge and
understanding as you're still trying to comprehend the various terms.

Shen

DR practice
 

Subject: DR practice
From: (JAXAshby)
Date: 08/07/2004 14:28 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

now, listen up, shen, one more fricken time. **IT IS PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE
TO
KNOW WHERE YOU ARE MOVING TO/FROM RELATIVE TO THE WATER AROUND YOU WITHOUT
**OUTSIDE** REFERENCES.

that is a fact of physics, shen. if you personally have so far been lucky to
have not crashed into anything when you were drunkenly, blindly wandering
around in a fog in a rocky channel, that means only that you were lucky.
That
time. you didn't know where you were even if you thought you did. you just
got lucky, that is all.

it is a physics thing, shen. you know, those damned laws of physics as voted
on by corrupt politicians.


FOFLMAO Try to relax, jaxass. I fully agree that "you" should never attempt to
move in any kind of reduced visibility, even with 3-4 DGPS's as you'd probably
run into the same problem as you did rounding Hatteras on a clear night.

Shen

DR practice
 

jeffies, you are an idiot. please be quiet.

Hey jaxie, its also physically impossible to know absolutely where you are
even
with outside references. Its all a matter of how much uncertainty you're
willing to accept.



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
now, listen up, shen, one more fricken time. **IT IS PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE
TO
KNOW WHERE YOU ARE MOVING TO/FROM RELATIVE TO THE WATER AROUND YOU WITHOUT
**OUTSIDE** REFERENCES.

that is a fact of physics, shen. if you personally have so far been lucky
to
have not crashed into anything when you were drunkenly, blindly wandering
around in a fog in a rocky channel, that means only that you were lucky.
That
time. you didn't know where you were even if you thought you did. you
just
got lucky, that is all.

it is a physics thing, shen. you know, those damned laws of physics as
voted
on by corrupt politicians.


it
only involves speed,time, and heading,

shen, that *IS* the definition of ded reckoning. what you describe
"improved"
DR is in fact pilotage, a whole different breed of cat.



No jaxass. That is YOUR limited definition of DR.
What I described is NOT piloting, as piloting involves fixes.
In truth, the two can be and frequently are, used in conjunction, but
that's
beyond you -you're still at the "definition" stage.

Shen

DR practice
 

shen, nobody pays you anything to DR anything. knock it off.

pilotAGE, not pilotING. there is a difference, dood.

What I described is NOT piloting,


ROFL Maybe you'd best say what you're talking about then since you're soo
hung
up on these definitions.
Obviously you aren't discussing my pay scale........ then again......

Shen

DR practice
 

A fix using marker buoys, it piloting.

no it isn't. you are piloting the boat, but using pilotage for navigation.
there is a hell of a difference.

DR practice
 

A fix using marker buoys, it piloting.
Using soundings, sounds from shore or smells from onshore restaurants is part
of DR, as they don't give you a fix,

they sure as hell do.

DR practice
 

As per usual, your lack of experience and knowledge of the subject is
showing.
You need to learn more than one definition for the same woids.
Pilotage, is the fee paid a pilot for piloting your boat.
Only a rank amateur with nothing but knowledge gained from reading and
none from doing would come up with some of the junk you do. The terms
are interchangeable, and the fact you can't and don't understand that
tells us how little you know.

otn

JAXAshby wrote:
A fix using marker buoys, it piloting.


no it isn't. you are piloting the boat, but using pilotage for navigation.
there is a hell of a difference.

DR practice
 

shen, nobody pays you anything to DR anything. knock it off.

LOL obviously, you don't know all the definitions for "pilotage"

Shen

DR practice
 

Subject: DR practice
From: (JAXAshby)
Date: 08/07/2004 16:08 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

A fix using marker buoys, it piloting.

no it isn't. you are piloting the boat, but using pilotage for navigation.
there is a hell of a difference.


No difference at all. Sometimes I'm using piloting and others I'm using
pilotage .... them's the same ting.
You just don't know better.

Shen

DR practice
 

Pilotage, is the fee paid a pilot for piloting your boat.

the use of the term in that way is not germaine to this discusssion. I stand
by my statement.

DR practice
 

The terms
are interchangeable,

they are not interchangeable, though those who never use either might think so.
Much the same way someone who never drives a truck might think the terms
two-speed axel and transmission overdrive are interchangeable. only to those
who have never been there.

DR practice
 

Sometimes I'm using piloting and others I'm using
pilotage .

*you*, shen, don't use either one, ever. go crawl back in your hole.

DR practice
 

No difference at all. Sometimes I'm using piloting and others I'm using
pilotage .... them's the same ting.

Shen

here ya go, shen. be enlightened.

pilotage

\Pi"lot*age\, n. [Cf. F. pilotage.] 1. The pilot's skill or knowledge, as of
coasts, rocks, bars, and channels

tr.v. pi·lot·ed, pi·lot·ing, pi·lots

1. To serve as the pilot of.
2. To steer or control the course of.

"piloting" means control of, steering if you will.

"pilotage" means navigation by landmarks.

DR practice
 

Only a landlubber would use a "dictionary" definition for a nautical term. It
figures that all of jaxie's nautical knowlege is from Webster's.

The rest of us, however, use a proper reference, such as Bowditch.

From the 1962 edition:
"Piloting (or pilotage) is navigation involving frequent or continuous
determination of position or a line of position relative to geographic
points, to a high order of accuracy. It is practiced in the vicinity of
land, dangers, aids to navigation, etc. and requires good judgment and
almost constant attention and alertness on the part of the navigator."





"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
No difference at all. Sometimes I'm using piloting and others I'm using
pilotage .... them's the same ting.

Shen

here ya go, shen. be enlightened.

pilotage

\Pi"lot*age\, n. [Cf. F. pilotage.] 1. The pilot's skill or knowledge, as of
coasts, rocks, bars, and channels

tr.v. pi·lot·ed, pi·lot·ing, pi·lots

1. To serve as the pilot of.
2. To steer or control the course of.

"piloting" means control of, steering if you will.

"pilotage" means navigation by landmarks.

DR practice
 

jeffies, "piloting" means the steering of the craft, while "pilotage" means the
navigation of the craft by use of landmarks.

google to your heart's content but that is the reality of the situation, IF
*you* were to ever in your lifetime talk to someone who has done both.

jeffies? are you trying again to prove to the world how limited you are in
native candle power?

Only a landlubber would use a "dictionary" definition for a nautical term.
It
figures that all of jaxie's nautical knowlege is from Webster's.

The rest of us, however, use a proper reference, such as Bowditch.

From the 1962 edition:
"Piloting (or pilotage) is navigation involving frequent or continuous
determination of position or a line of position relative to geographic
points, to a high order of accuracy. It is practiced in the vicinity of
land, dangers, aids to navigation, etc. and requires good judgment and
almost constant attention and alertness on the part of the navigator."





"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
No difference at all. Sometimes I'm using piloting and others I'm using
pilotage .... them's the same ting.

Shen

here ya go, shen. be enlightened.

pilotage

\Pi"lot*age\, n. [Cf. F. pilotage.] 1. The pilot's skill or knowledge, as
of
coasts, rocks, bars, and channels

tr.v. pi·lot·ed, pi·lot·ing, pi·lots

1. To serve as the pilot of.
2. To steer or control the course of.

"piloting" means control of, steering if you will.

"pilotage" means navigation by landmarks.

DR practice
 

Google? I just pull a copy of Bowditch off the rack. (You didn't notice I used
the '62 edition, not the online 2002 edition.) You're the one who cites his
online Webster every other post.

Speaking of piloting, have you figured out yet which light you were looking for
at Hatteras when you wanted to turn back? Three GPS's and a clear night, and
you couldn't find your way! And you still can't tell us where you were? What
a Putz!




"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
jeffies, "piloting" means the steering of the craft, while "pilotage" means
the
navigation of the craft by use of landmarks.

google to your heart's content but that is the reality of the situation, IF
*you* were to ever in your lifetime talk to someone who has done both.

jeffies? are you trying again to prove to the world how limited you are in
native candle power?

Only a landlubber would use a "dictionary" definition for a nautical term.
It
figures that all of jaxie's nautical knowlege is from Webster's.

The rest of us, however, use a proper reference, such as Bowditch.

From the 1962 edition:
"Piloting (or pilotage) is navigation involving frequent or continuous
determination of position or a line of position relative to geographic
points, to a high order of accuracy. It is practiced in the vicinity of
land, dangers, aids to navigation, etc. and requires good judgment and
almost constant attention and alertness on the part of the navigator."





"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
No difference at all. Sometimes I'm using piloting and others I'm using
pilotage .... them's the same ting.

Shen

here ya go, shen. be enlightened.

pilotage

\Pi"lot*age\, n. [Cf. F. pilotage.] 1. The pilot's skill or knowledge, as
of
coasts, rocks, bars, and channels

tr.v. pi·lot·ed, pi·lot·ing, pi·lots

1. To serve as the pilot of.
2. To steer or control the course of.

"piloting" means control of, steering if you will.

"pilotage" means navigation by landmarks.

DR practice
 

sounds like jeffies be miffed that I repeated the thought that catamarans are
the fake tits of the sailing world. All hard edges and sharp corner, overly
large for the sake of being overly large, without additional function but with
reduced sensitivity.

From: "Jeff Morris"
Date: 8/8/2004 10:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

Google? I just pull a copy of Bowditch off the rack. (You didn't notice I
used
the '62 edition, not the online 2002 edition.) You're the one who cites his
online Webster every other post.

Speaking of piloting, have you figured out yet which light you were looking
for
at Hatteras when you wanted to turn back? Three GPS's and a clear night, and
you couldn't find your way! And you still can't tell us where you were?
What
a Putz!




"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
jeffies, "piloting" means the steering of the craft, while "pilotage" means
the
navigation of the craft by use of landmarks.

google to your heart's content but that is the reality of the situation, IF
*you* were to ever in your lifetime talk to someone who has done both.

jeffies? are you trying again to prove to the world how limited you are in
native candle power?

Only a landlubber would use a "dictionary" definition for a nautical term.
It
figures that all of jaxie's nautical knowlege is from Webster's.

The rest of us, however, use a proper reference, such as Bowditch.

From the 1962 edition:
"Piloting (or pilotage) is navigation involving frequent or continuous
determination of position or a line of position relative to geographic
points, to a high order of accuracy. It is practiced in the vicinity of
land, dangers, aids to navigation, etc. and requires good judgment and
almost constant attention and alertness on the part of the navigator."





"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
No difference at all. Sometimes I'm using piloting and others I'm using
pilotage .... them's the same ting.

Shen

here ya go, shen. be enlightened.

pilotage

\Pi"lot*age\, n. [Cf. F. pilotage.] 1. The pilot's skill or knowledge,
as
of
coasts, rocks, bars, and channels

tr.v. pi·lot·ed, pi·lot·ing, pi·lots

1. To serve as the pilot of.
2. To steer or control the course of.

"piloting" means control of, steering if you will.

"pilotage" means navigation by landmarks.

DR practice
 

JAXAshby wrote:
Pilotage, is the fee paid a pilot for piloting your boat.


the use of the term in that way is not germaine to this discusssion. I stand
by my statement.

G Actually it is, since I'm part of this discussion.
However, to stay within your limited knowledge of the subject, Bowditch
has a section on this subject.
It starts off: "Piloting (or pilotage)) is navigation involving frequent
or continuous determination of position ....."
What this is saying, is that the terms are interchangeable.
Now, I realize that someone with the limited knowledge and experience
you possess, needs a basis for developing your skills, but I suggest
you'd be better served spending less time fixating on your
interpretation of the meaning of some word or phrase and more time out
there learning through doing, regarding the compass, DR, and
piloting/pilotage.

otn

DR practice
 

JAXAshby wrote:
The terms
are interchangeable,


they are not interchangeable, though those who never use either might think so.
Much the same way someone who never drives a truck might think the terms
two-speed axel and transmission overdrive are interchangeable. only to those
who have never been there.

EG they are interchangeable, though those (such as JAXAshby) who never
use either might not think so.