naive, that is absolutely no such force in nature called "suck", therefore the
exhaust gases can not such the water around the elbow.

have you any idea at all how a siphon works??

obviously not.

think about it, naive, just what in hell _pushes_ the water "around the elbow"?
When the engine is running the exhaust gases do, when the engine is not
running, what?

It's pretty obvious from that diagram that when the gasses in the
exhaust cool they will suck in water 'round the exhaiust loop which will
then try to fill the engine... without a siphon break... as I said.

Cheers


Jeff Morris wrote:

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...

jefffies, you are spouting your ill-informed opinion.

having the water injection point anywhere near the waterline is forbidden
(not
to mention stupid) unless there is no other way possible.


No, you're wrong as usual. It is a definately forbidden to have the
injection
point near the waterline with the appropriate protection, such as a siphon
break. I even posted the ABYC guideline.

Given the geometry of the most commonly used engine (and most others), and
taking into account heel angle and an extra margin for overloading, there's
less
than a foot between the injection and prop shaft. Since one wants to
minimize
the down angle (15 degrees is the max, but under 8 degrees is better),
you'd
have to put the engine in the bow to ensure the injection point is always
above
the waterline.

Here's a diagram of the boat in question, a Pearson 30. Its pretty clear
to see
that even with an extreme angle, the engine is completely below the
waterline.
A siphon break is obviously required.
http://pearsoninfo.net/30/30.htm





This is total nonsense. It is quite common, even likely, that the
injection
point will be at or near the waterline. Even if its nominally above, one
must
add the result of heeling, and possible overloading.

The distance between the injection (with the elbow that raises the
injection
up)
on the new Yanmar YM series is 16 inches above the prop shaft. While this
may
work out on a newer small, fin keel boat, this will very likely be well
below
the waterline on a more tradition full keel design where the engine sits
deeper.
And, if you subtract some for heeling and overloading, its actually hard
to
imagine a setup (other than very small boat) where the injection point
isn't
potentially at the waterline.

BTW, my boat, and my previous boat, has a siphon break. I was on a 43
foot
cruising boat today with a Perkins 4-108 where we determined the injection
point
was just about at the waterline.

Once again, jax proves he knows about as much about boats as the Tidy Bowl
Man.



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...

oxxy, it is forbidden to have the water injection point below the

waterline,

except the rare case when it must be. But that rare case was not the
boat
under discussion.


"Jeff Morris"
scribbled thusly:


You can backpedal and nitpick that the water injection line is not part

of

the

direct path of the exhaust gases, but its pretty clear that everyone

considers

it part of the exhaust system.




You're learning Jeff.
This is where Jocks will claim victory.
He'll be wrong as usual calling it the raw water system or some such
other but hey. that's Jocks.


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

I have the manual, jaxie, have you even seen it? What part of "recommended in
applications where the exhaust manifold may be below the waterline at any angle
of heel." is too complicated for you to understand? Or are you claiming that
the ABYC doe snot know what they're talking about?

I showed the diagram of the P30, it is clear the engine is completely below the
waterline, and this is a typical situation.

The standards are clear and explicit. Why do you continue to demean yourself by
claiming otherwise? This is becoming one of your more embarrassing defeats,
jaxie; just pathetic.




e
"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
RTFM, jeffies, RTFM

Where does it say that? - please give us a link. You keep spouting this
nonsense but all of the experts are against you.

I have the ABYC standards, they don't say that; instead they recommend a
siphon
break. In fact, they say it is "recommended in applications where the
exhaust
manifold may be below the waterline at any angle of heel." Not just the
"injection point," but the exhaust manifold in general. From the diagram of
the
P30 I posted, its pretty clear that the exhaust manifold is below the
waterline
at rest, with normal loading; it only gets worse from there. In fact, using
a
Yanmar YM engine, you barely have a "propeller radius" between the manifold
and
the prop shaft. Its pretty clear that a siphon break will be required on a
large number of boats. In fact, the boat that didn't need it would be an
exception.



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
dum-dum, the water injection unit on a properly installed water injection
unit
is a *minimum* of 6 inches above the waterline at any to be expected angle
of
heel. check it out and stop googling sites written by those as badly
informed
as you are.

jefffies, you are spouting your ill-informed opinion.

having the water injection point anywhere near the waterline is
forbidden
(not
to mention stupid) unless there is no other way possible.

No, you're wrong as usual. It is a definately forbidden to have the
injection
point near the waterline with the appropriate protection, such as a siphon
break. I even posted the ABYC guideline.

Given the geometry of the most commonly used engine (and most others), and
taking into account heel angle and an extra margin for overloading,
there's
less
than a foot between the injection and prop shaft. Since one wants to
minimize
the down angle (15 degrees is the max, but under 8 degrees is better),
you'd
have to put the engine in the bow to ensure the injection point is always
above
the waterline.

Here's a diagram of the boat in question, a Pearson 30. Its pretty clear
to
see
that even with an extreme angle, the engine is completely below the
waterline.
A siphon break is obviously required.
http://pearsoninfo.net/30/30.htm





This is total nonsense. It is quite common, even likely, that the
injection
point will be at or near the waterline. Even if its nominally above,
one
must
add the result of heeling, and possible overloading.

The distance between the injection (with the elbow that raises the
injection
up)
on the new Yanmar YM series is 16 inches above the prop shaft. While
this
may
work out on a newer small, fin keel boat, this will very likely be well
below
the waterline on a more tradition full keel design where the engine
sits
deeper.
And, if you subtract some for heeling and overloading, its actually
hard
to
imagine a setup (other than very small boat) where the injection point
isn't
potentially at the waterline.

BTW, my boat, and my previous boat, has a siphon break. I was on a 43
foot
cruising boat today with a Perkins 4-108 where we determined the
injection
point
was just about at the waterline.

Once again, jax proves he knows about as much about boats as the Tidy
Bowl
Man.



"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
oxxy, it is forbidden to have the water injection point below the
waterline,
except the rare case when it must be. But that rare case was not the
boat
under discussion.

"Jeff Morris"
scribbled thusly:

You can backpedal and nitpick that the water injection line is not
part
of
the
direct path of the exhaust gases, but its pretty clear that
everyone
considers
it part of the exhaust system.



You're learning Jeff.
This is where Jocks will claim victory.
He'll be wrong as usual calling it the raw water system or some such
other but hey. that's Jocks.


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

the P30, it is clear the engine is completely below the
waterline,

no it is not.

and this is a typical situation.

plainly, you have not actually looked at a P30 engine installation.

plainly, you do not understand the issues involved *IF* one is stupid enough to
put the complete water injection system below the waterline. NOT DONE,
jeffies, and if you can not see why just shut up so you don't look so stupid.

NOT DONE.

btw, jeffies, have you ever even seen -- let alone read -- the instructions for
installation of a water injection system? You have? What word didn't you
understand?

no, jeffies, stop once and for all telling us you have an associates degree in
liberal arts physics from some technical college. If you did, no way in hell
would you post what you post. This is easy stuff, jeffies. easy stuff.

http://www.sailingsource.com/pearson30/images/brocb.jpg

See above. Pearson engine is below the waterline. Only part of the throttle
assembly was above.

RB

Subject: More incredible things learned usenet
From: (JAXAshby)
Date: 06/04/2004 04:53 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

naive, that is absolutely no such force in nature called "suck"

Lord ..... help me maintain pure thoughts, whilst contemplating the above
statement and considering the source.....

Thank you Lord.... Amen

Shen

"JAXAshby" showed his ignorance once again with:
the P30, it is clear the engine is completely below the
waterline,

no it is not.

That's odd, two diagrams of the P30 have been posted which show the engine
completely under the waterline, with the possible exception of the forward
corner. The exhaust manifold is completely under, and if the boat heels or a
large crew is in the cockpit, it will be several inches lower.


and this is a typical situation.

plainly, you have not actually looked at a P30 engine installation.

It would seem you never have. Your word isn't worth diddlysquat, compared to
the actual posted specs.



plainly, you do not understand the issues involved *IF* one is stupid enough
to
put the complete water injection system below the waterline. NOT DONE,
jeffies, and if you can not see why just shut up so you don't look so stupid.

It is extremely common, actually the norm for traditional designs (where the
engine sits pretty low) and larger boats. Just go to a boat yard and tell us
how many propellers are close to the waterline.


NOT DONE.

Funny, I was on a 41 foot center cockpit boat today and I checked out the engine
room. The entire engine was at least 4 to 6 inches below the waterline. It was
hard to see how a boat of this general design could have the injection above the
waterline. It was a proper installation, with a siphon break and a high loop in
the exhaust line. Remember, the ABYC standards require a siphon break if the
exhaust manifold is below the waterline, so even the unusual setup of having the
elbow and injection well above the engine requires the siphon break.

Jax, installing the engine below the waterline is done all the time, probably on
a majority of the larger boats. The Practical Sailor article says, "Most
sailboat engines are installed below the boat’s waterline. This means that
special precautions must be taken to prevent seawater from siphoning back into
the engine, with potentially disastrous results."


btw, jeffies, have you ever even seen -- let alone read -- the instructions
for
installation of a water injection system? You have?

OK, I happen to have the Yanmar 20GM20F Installation manual; I have two of these
engines, both of which were installed with siphon breaks. The book says: "When
the water outlet of the engine is below the waterline: In this case attach a
vacuum valve to the elbow of the cooling water pipe." It then has a picture
showing a loop with a siphon break 300 mm above the waterline, and a loop in the
exhaust, 350 mm above the waterline. There was not a single comment indicating
this was an inferior installation.

What word didn't you understand?

Sound pretty clear to me, what part of it do you not understand?

I've shown the ABYC standards, the engine installation instructions, the
comments of recognized experts. None of them even hint that there is any truth
to your claims. All you've done is to keep repeating your flawed advice. It
doesn't matter how often you repeat it, its still wrong.


no, jeffies, stop once and for all telling us you have an associates degree in
liberal arts physics from some technical college. If you did, no way in hell
would you post what you post. This is easy stuff, jeffies. easy stuff.


You soiled yourself pretty badly with this one jaxie; better go home to mommie
and change your pants.

the water injection system is above the waterline. Notice that the water
injection system is not shown in the line drawing, but that the aft end of the
manifold is _at_ the waterline. The exhaust makes a 90* turn up from there,
rises to 6 inches or more, then the injection system is installed and the water
falls downward. The water injection opens into an area above the waterline.

Notice also that no anti-siphon valve, and tubing from/to, is shown in the line
drawing as well.




http://www.sailingsource.com/pearson30/images/brocb.jpg

See above. Pearson engine is below the waterline. Only part of the throttle
assembly was above.

RB

shen utters thusly:

[snip all but the important stuff]

jeffies, that line drawing from an advertising brochure does NOT show any
anti-siphon valve at all. Duh.

btw, it also doesn't show the water injection system, which *is*above the water
line.

jeffies? why oh why do you have such a hard time understanding just what makes
a siphon viable or not?

the P30, it is clear the engine is completely below the
waterline,

no it is not.

That's odd, two diagrams of the P30 have been posted which show the engine
completely under the waterline, with the possible exception of the forward
corner. The exhaust manifold is completely under, and if the boat heels or a
large crew is in the cockpit, it will be several inches lower.


and this is a typical situation.

plainly, you have not actually looked at a P30 engine installation.

It would seem you never have. Your word isn't worth diddlysquat, compared to
the actual posted specs.



plainly, you do not understand the issues involved *IF* one is stupid
enough
to
put the complete water injection system below the waterline. NOT DONE,
jeffies, and if you can not see why just shut up so you don't look so
stupid.

It is extremely common, actually the norm for traditional designs (where the
engine sits pretty low) and larger boats. Just go to a boat yard and tell us
how many propellers are close to the waterline.


NOT DONE.

Funny, I was on a 41 foot center cockpit boat today and I checked out the
engine
room. The entire engine was at least 4 to 6 inches below the waterline. It
was
hard to see how a boat of this general design could have the injection above
the
waterline. It was a proper installation, with a siphon break and a high loop
in
the exhaust line. Remember, the ABYC standards require a siphon break if the
exhaust manifold is below the waterline, so even the unusual setup of having
the
elbow and injection well above the engine requires the siphon break.

Jax, installing the engine below the waterline is done all the time, probably
on
a majority of the larger boats. The Practical Sailor article says, "Most
sailboat engines are installed below the boat’s waterline. This means that
special precautions must be taken to prevent seawater from siphoning back
into
the engine, with potentially disastrous results."


btw, jeffies, have you ever even seen -- let alone read -- the instructions
for
installation of a water injection system? You have?

OK, I happen to have the Yanmar 20GM20F Installation manual; I have two of
these
engines, both of which were installed with siphon breaks. The book says:
"When
the water outlet of the engine is below the waterline: In this case attach a
vacuum valve to the elbow of the cooling water pipe." It then has a picture
showing a loop with a siphon break 300 mm above the waterline, and a loop in
the
exhaust, 350 mm above the waterline. There was not a single comment
indicating
this was an inferior installation.

What word didn't you understand?

Sound pretty clear to me, what part of it do you not understand?

I've shown the ABYC standards, the engine installation instructions, the
comments of recognized experts. None of them even hint that there is any
truth
to your claims. All you've done is to keep repeating your flawed advice. It
doesn't matter how often you repeat it, its still wrong.


no, jeffies, stop once and for all telling us you have an associates degree
in
liberal arts physics from some technical college. If you did, no way in
hell
would you post what you post. This is easy stuff, jeffies. easy stuff.


You soiled yourself pretty badly with this one jaxie; better go home to
mommie
and change your pants.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
jeffies, that line drawing from an advertising brochure does NOT show any
anti-siphon valve at all. Duh.

btw, it also doesn't show the water injection system, which *is*above the
water
line.

It doesn't matter, the ABYC standard requires the siphon break if the exhaust
manifold is below water at any angle of heel, with any loading. It sure looks
like that would be the case here.

Further, we know the engine got water in it. Perhaps the standards were written
after a number of these older boats got "flooded."




jeffies? why oh why do you have such a hard time understanding just what
makes
a siphon viable or not?

Jaxie? Why can't you accept what the standards are, what the instructions are,
and what the experts say? You clearly have no knowlege of common practice;
you're just making up bull****. If your claims are correct, you should have no
problem posting a link that back them up. If you can't, you should go home and
change your pants.