STOP the MADNESS
 

Just look at the POS!
http://www.havencraft.com/Index.asp

A pic is worth a thousand words, in this case all negative.

Scotty

STOP the MADNESS
 

CRIPES!!!!!!!

I tagged the basics and ended up with a cost of over 32 grand for what
amounts to a dangerously under rigged, cheap plastic piece of **** with the
PHRF rating of a margarine container.

You won't get pussy on that boat unless you have a "As when And Where"
contract with a brothel.

I can't see any major difference between the "X" & "M"......

CM




"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...
| Just look at the POS!
| http://www.havencraft.com/Index.asp
|
| A pic is worth a thousand words, in this case all negative.
|
| Scotty
|

STOP the MADNESS
 

It's blue and butt-ugly.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...
Just look at the POS!
http://www.havencraft.com/Index.asp

A pic is worth a thousand words, in this case all negative.

Scotty

STOP the MADNESS
 

gross

--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

STOP the MADNESS
 

smoke & mirrors.


"Capt. Mooron" wrote

I can't see any major difference between the "X" & "M"......

STOP the MADNESS
 

For that much money, you could buy a sailboat.

"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...
Just look at the POS!
http://www.havencraft.com/Index.asp

A pic is worth a thousand words, in this case all negative.

Scotty

STOP the MADNESS
 

Capt. Mooron wrote:
CRIPES!!!!!!!

I tagged the basics and ended up with a cost of over 32 grand for what
amounts to a dangerously under rigged, cheap plastic piece of **** with the
PHRF rating of a margarine container.

You won't get pussy on that boat unless you have a "As when And Where"
contract with a brothel.

I can't see any major difference between the "X" & "M"......

CM



There are major differences between the two boats, including an entirely
new hull design, new keel, new sail configuration, different ballast,
etc., etc., etc. These differences have been discussed in detail in the
past few weeks.

Of course, if you are more interested in posting Mac-Bashing notes on
the ng and getting "atta-boys" from your buddies, you probably don't
have much interest in the facts, do you CM?

Jim







"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...
| Just look at the POS!
| http://www.havencraft.com/Index.asp
|
| A pic is worth a thousand words, in this case all negative.
|
| Scotty
|

STOP the MADNESS
 

Dear Capt Moron,

The cost of a Mac 26M with 50 hp motor is substantially less than 32K
for a fully equipped boat. Nevertheless, however, 32K is a BARGAIN for
a boat of this quality, versatility, capability.

Incidentally, if, as you say, the Mac 26 is only a "cheap plastic piece
of ****" that is "dangerously under rigged," then there must be hundreds
of them that are falling apart every year, right? Since MacGregor has
sold over 30,000 boats, there must be at least 5,000 of them in which
the rigging has come apart in a moderate wind, or in which the boat has
simply self-destructed and sunk. - Right? If it's dangerously under
rigged, the rigging must be coming apart every time they go out in
moderate winds. (Incidentally, Capt, while you are at it, can you
explain to me why the MacGregor boats, with 300 sq ft of sail, need the
same type of standing rigging as boats with 1,500 ft of sail, and a
4,000 - 6,000 lead keel.)

Of the some MacGregor 30,000 boats, how many do you know of that have
failed, or sunk, or fallen apart because of build quality or "cheap
plastic", excluding user error? - 2,000, perhaps? Maybe 1,000?? Surely
you must know of 500, Moron. Ok, if not 500, how about 100? I'm talking
about yearly averages, not anecdotes, by the way.

In other words, can you back up your (libelous) remarks?

Jim



Capt. Mooron wrote:

CRIPES!!!!!!!

I tagged the basics and ended up with a cost of over 32 grand for what
amounts to a dangerously under rigged, cheap plastic piece of **** with the
PHRF rating of a margarine container.

You won't get pussy on that boat unless you have a "As when And Where"
contract with a brothel.

I can't see any major difference between the "X" & "M"......

CM




"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...
| Just look at the POS!
| http://www.havencraft.com/Index.asp
|
| A pic is worth a thousand words, in this case all negative.
|
| Scotty
|

STOP the MADNESS
 

Jonathan Ganz wrote:

It's blue and butt-ugly.

Johnathan, appearance is in the eye of the beholder (I personally prefer
the white hull), but what qualifies you to make judgments like that? Do
you have training in art, yacht design, color selection and matching?
What education or degrees do you have that relate to aesthetics?

In any event, the appearance of the Mac 26M is sufficiently attractive
that MacGregor can't come close to meeting the demand for the boat.
(And don't try to tell me that the comments of contributors to this ng
"prove" your point. - 95% of the participants on this ng are obviously
biased regarding MacGregor and would put down whatever design they came
up with.)

Jim

STOP the MADNESS
 

Jim Cate wrote:

... Since
MacGregor has sold over 30,000 boats, there must be at least 5,000 of
them in which the rigging has come apart in a moderate wind, or in
which the boat has simply self-destructed and sunk.

STOP the MADNESS
 

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...

In any event, the appearance of the Mac 26M is sufficiently attractive
that MacGregor can't come close to meeting the demand for the boat.

The fact that you were able to buy one and have it delivered in 2 months is
absolute proof that they are not backordered as you claim. When a boat is "hard
to get" it means its backordered 6 months or a year. Ordering in March for a
Spring delivery is essentially buying the dealer's stock.

You just believe everything the salesman tells you. Didn't your daddy teach you
anything about salesmen?


(And don't try to tell me that the comments of contributors to this ng
"prove" your point. - 95% of the participants on this ng are obviously
biased regarding MacGregor and would put down whatever design they came
up with.)

Actually, I thought that picture was rather flattering. From most angles
they're butt-ugly.

STOP the MADNESS
 

I think most mac owners with bad experiences don't want to talk about them,
especially since they're still trying to unload the boat.

We have to rely on witnesses, like this one:

http://www.ybw.com/cgi-bin/forums/sh...b=5&o=93&part=

Macgregor 26 may be ok for an experienced and careful owner. Hear a lot of bad
reports re stability etc. We recorded bad accident on Loch Lomond with one : I
was doing my RNLI water safety bit at the slipway and a guy pulled up with one
on a trailer. He had just hauled it from Southampton too. Anyway, he had had a
good sleep and was fresh to go. He spent three hours with his son, getting her
rigged and I checked his boat for safety and stuff and he launched ok. Next day,
he set off from one of the islands and as he cleared the lee, caught a sudden
blow and because he had his keels either 'up' or empty of water buoyancy, the
whole thing just rolled over and submerged. His kids were down below asleep and
he had left some of his lifejackets at his campsite on the island!! Fortunately,
he was in shallow water and was saved by the inshore fast rescue boat.
Unfortunately, the Mac was wrecked during a later attempted recovery. A long
tale of woe for sure, but boating as we know can be tricky at times. The skipper
did have some experience but he made a mistake which on the Mac 26 proved
terminal. Best advice, buy any boat you like and can afford, but first of all,
get trained by a real expert. There are some on this forum who are professional
instructors and they will probably advise what's best. Happy boating. Safe
people have more fun anyway!! Roy

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...
Dear Capt Moron,

The cost of a Mac 26M with 50 hp motor is substantially less than 32K
for a fully equipped boat. Nevertheless, however, 32K is a BARGAIN for
a boat of this quality, versatility, capability.

Incidentally, if, as you say, the Mac 26 is only a "cheap plastic piece
of ****" that is "dangerously under rigged," then there must be hundreds
of them that are falling apart every year, right? Since MacGregor has
sold over 30,000 boats, there must be at least 5,000 of them in which
the rigging has come apart in a moderate wind, or in which the boat has
simply self-destructed and sunk. - Right? If it's dangerously under
rigged, the rigging must be coming apart every time they go out in
moderate winds. (Incidentally, Capt, while you are at it, can you
explain to me why the MacGregor boats, with 300 sq ft of sail, need the
same type of standing rigging as boats with 1,500 ft of sail, and a
4,000 - 6,000 lead keel.)

Of the some MacGregor 30,000 boats, how many do you know of that have
failed, or sunk, or fallen apart because of build quality or "cheap
plastic", excluding user error? - 2,000, perhaps? Maybe 1,000?? Surely
you must know of 500, Moron. Ok, if not 500, how about 100? I'm talking
about yearly averages, not anecdotes, by the way.

In other words, can you back up your (libelous) remarks?

Jim



Capt. Mooron wrote:

CRIPES!!!!!!!

I tagged the basics and ended up with a cost of over 32 grand for what
amounts to a dangerously under rigged, cheap plastic piece of **** with the
PHRF rating of a margarine container.

You won't get pussy on that boat unless you have a "As when And Where"
contract with a brothel.

I can't see any major difference between the "X" & "M"......

CM




"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...
| Just look at the POS!
| http://www.havencraft.com/Index.asp
|
| A pic is worth a thousand words, in this case all negative.
|
| Scotty
|

STOP the MADNESS
 

Now Jim, I'm going to tell you a true story, and if you've been lurking here
for as long as you say you have, you know I don't make things up. When we
had our O'Day 27 up for sale, which by the way was a 1976 model...the old
variety, the good variety of O'day, a young couple came to look at the boat.
They sat with us down in the cabin, with very forlorn faces. You see, they
had purchased a brand new Mac26X the previous summer, hated it and couldn't
sell it. They wanted to know if we would trade....needless to say, the
answer was "no". We did not bash their boat, but commiserated with them.
He stated that yes, it was great to motor around in, and that it would get
up and boogie under engine power, but that it stank as a sailboat. There
are several that "sail" on Muskegon Lake...they are not fast...they are not
even mediocre...when they can't get the thing to sail on the wind, they rev
up the engine's to reposition themselves. And that's the truth, whether you
want to admit it or not. Remember, an awful lot of people bought things
like Gremlins, Yugo's and Pacers...and they to went the way of most things
useless.

--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

STOP the MADNESS
 

Capt. Mooron wrote:

CRIPES!!!!!!!

I tagged the basics and ended up with a cost of over 32 grand for what
amounts to a dangerously under rigged, cheap plastic piece of **** with the
PHRF rating of a margarine container.

It was 'designed' to look like Chiquita by Bill Tripp too?

Cheers MC

STOP the MADNESS
 

Jim asked:
What education or degrees do you have that relate to aesthetics?

Give me a break. Now you are being absolutely ludicrous. Aesthetics is in
the eye of the beholder...and that includes art. There is no degree that
teaches you that. Aesthetics come from experience, from knowing what works,
what is practical, what is beautifful. Do you see any of the top boat
designers designing sailboats that look like Macs? NO! I'd venture Bob
Perry would gag. I'd say Buddy Melges would have a stroke. The French
designers would spit on you. Maybe you'd find someone in your court from
the old Coronado/Irwin camps....but probably not. You are buying a
butt-ugly, unaesthetic boat that is neither fish nor foul but a
hermaphrodite. And like most hermaphrodites, it is impotent.
--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

STOP the MADNESS
 

You are quite correct, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but please,
don't post a picture of your wife or children.

Cheers MC

Jim Cate wrote:



Jonathan Ganz wrote:

It's blue and butt-ugly.


Johnathan, appearance is in the eye of the beholder (I personally prefer
the white hull), but what qualifies you to make judgments like that? Do
you have training in art, yacht design, color selection and matching?
What education or degrees do you have that relate to aesthetics?

In any event, the appearance of the Mac 26M is sufficiently attractive
that MacGregor can't come close to meeting the demand for the boat. (And
don't try to tell me that the comments of contributors to this ng
"prove" your point. - 95% of the participants on this ng are obviously
biased regarding MacGregor and would put down whatever design they came
up with.)

Jim

STOP the MADNESS
 

It's still a piece of junk.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...
There are major differences between the two boats, including an entirely
new hull design, new keel, new sail configuration, different ballast,
etc., etc., etc. These differences have been discussed in detail in the
past few weeks.

Of course, if you are more interested in posting Mac-Bashing notes on
the ng and getting "atta-boys" from your buddies, you probably don't
have much interest in the facts, do you CM?

Jim

STOP the MADNESS
 

That's why MacBoy is stupid, stupid, stupid.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
I think most mac owners with bad experiences don't want to talk about
them,
especially since they're still trying to unload the boat.

We have to rely on witnesses, like this one:


http://www.ybw.com/cgi-bin/forums/sh...b=5&o=93&part=

Macgregor 26 may be ok for an experienced and careful owner. Hear a lot of
bad
reports re stability etc. We recorded bad accident on Loch Lomond with one
: I
was doing my RNLI water safety bit at the slipway and a guy pulled up with
one
on a trailer. He had just hauled it from Southampton too. Anyway, he had
had a
good sleep and was fresh to go. He spent three hours with his son, getting
her
rigged and I checked his boat for safety and stuff and he launched ok.
Next day,
he set off from one of the islands and as he cleared the lee, caught a
sudden
blow and because he had his keels either 'up' or empty of water buoyancy,
the
whole thing just rolled over and submerged. His kids were down below
asleep and
he had left some of his lifejackets at his campsite on the island!!
Fortunately,
he was in shallow water and was saved by the inshore fast rescue boat.
Unfortunately, the Mac was wrecked during a later attempted recovery. A
long
tale of woe for sure, but boating as we know can be tricky at times. The
skipper
did have some experience but he made a mistake which on the Mac 26 proved
terminal. Best advice, buy any boat you like and can afford, but first of
all,
get trained by a real expert. There are some on this forum who are
professional
instructors and they will probably advise what's best. Happy boating. Safe
people have more fun anyway!! Roy

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...
Dear Capt Moron,

The cost of a Mac 26M with 50 hp motor is substantially less than 32K
for a fully equipped boat. Nevertheless, however, 32K is a BARGAIN for
a boat of this quality, versatility, capability.

Incidentally, if, as you say, the Mac 26 is only a "cheap plastic piece
of ****" that is "dangerously under rigged," then there must be hundreds
of them that are falling apart every year, right? Since MacGregor has
sold over 30,000 boats, there must be at least 5,000 of them in which
the rigging has come apart in a moderate wind, or in which the boat has
simply self-destructed and sunk. - Right? If it's dangerously under
rigged, the rigging must be coming apart every time they go out in
moderate winds. (Incidentally, Capt, while you are at it, can you
explain to me why the MacGregor boats, with 300 sq ft of sail, need the
same type of standing rigging as boats with 1,500 ft of sail, and a
4,000 - 6,000 lead keel.)

Of the some MacGregor 30,000 boats, how many do you know of that have
failed, or sunk, or fallen apart because of build quality or "cheap
plastic", excluding user error? - 2,000, perhaps? Maybe 1,000?? Surely
you must know of 500, Moron. Ok, if not 500, how about 100? I'm talking
about yearly averages, not anecdotes, by the way.

In other words, can you back up your (libelous) remarks?

Jim



Capt. Mooron wrote:

CRIPES!!!!!!!

I tagged the basics and ended up with a cost of over 32 grand for what
amounts to a dangerously under rigged, cheap plastic piece of ****
with the
PHRF rating of a margarine container.

You won't get pussy on that boat unless you have a "As when And Where"
contract with a brothel.

I can't see any major difference between the "X" & "M"......

CM




"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...
| Just look at the POS!
| http://www.havencraft.com/Index.asp
|
| A pic is worth a thousand words, in this case all negative.
|
| Scotty
|

STOP the MADNESS
 

Macboy, it's butt-ugly in the same way that you're stupid.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...


Jonathan Ganz wrote:

It's blue and butt-ugly.

Johnathan, appearance is in the eye of the beholder (I personally prefer
the white hull), but what qualifies you to make judgments like that? Do
you have training in art, yacht design, color selection and matching?
What education or degrees do you have that relate to aesthetics?

In any event, the appearance of the Mac 26M is sufficiently attractive
that MacGregor can't come close to meeting the demand for the boat.
(And don't try to tell me that the comments of contributors to this ng
"prove" your point. - 95% of the participants on this ng are obviously
biased regarding MacGregor and would put down whatever design they came
up with.)

Jim

STOP the MADNESS
 

"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...
Just look at the POS!
http://www.havencraft.com/Index.asp

A pic is worth a thousand words, in this case all negative.

Scotty

The real madness is thinking these things hold their value.
http://www.havencraft.com/BoatDetail...d=39&imageID=1
Scrolling through the ads, noticed most of the older models weren't
advertising their price.
http://www.havencraft.com/BoatDetail...d=36&imageID=1
Have to feel sorry for this guy, someone at the brokerage must have told him
he could get this much money.
John Cairns

STOP the MADNESS
 

"She's Dead Jim"......

I've been on a couple of Macs... the 19 the 26X. I've sailed on them.... [
and I use the term lightly].... in a variety of conditions. In each case
and condition..... the vessels have never disappointed me in their ability
to deliver substandard performance parameters and yet exceed the boundaries
of discomfort.

What truly renders this magnificent design so unique...... is it's
capacity to operate as either a power boat or sailboat while maintaining
it's reputation as the worst of both worlds.

Now you may well see this as boat bashing..... but in truth it's merely
enlightenment. The Macgregor is a vessel suited to those of little cash, no
experience and lacking all concept of boating in general.

The boat is suited for it's purpose...... I believe that you merely feel
uncomfortable with the mantle dictated by ownership.

Don't worry Jim... we're laughing at you .... not with you. ;-)

CM


"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...
|
|
| Capt. Mooron wrote:
| CRIPES!!!!!!!
|
| I tagged the basics and ended up with a cost of over 32 grand for what
| amounts to a dangerously under rigged, cheap plastic piece of **** with
the
| PHRF rating of a margarine container.
|
| You won't get pussy on that boat unless you have a "As when And Where"
| contract with a brothel.
|
| I can't see any major difference between the "X" & "M"......
|
| CM
|
|
|
| There are major differences between the two boats, including an entirely
| new hull design, new keel, new sail configuration, different ballast,
| etc., etc., etc. These differences have been discussed in detail in the
| past few weeks.
|
| Of course, if you are more interested in posting Mac-Bashing notes on
| the ng and getting "atta-boys" from your buddies, you probably don't
| have much interest in the facts, do you CM?
|
| Jim
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| "Scott Vernon" wrote in message
| ...
| | Just look at the POS!
| | http://www.havencraft.com/Index.asp
| |
| | A pic is worth a thousand words, in this case all negative.
| |
| | Scotty
| |
|
|
|

STOP the MADNESS
 

"Jim Cate" wrote in message

| In other words, can you back up your (libelous) remarks?

Yes....

CM

STOP the MADNESS
 

Capt. Mooron wrote:

"She's Dead Jim"......

I've been on a couple of Macs... the 19 the 26X. I've sailed on them.... [
and I use the term lightly].... in a variety of conditions. In each case
and condition..... the vessels have never disappointed me in their ability
to deliver substandard performance parameters and yet exceed the boundaries
of discomfort.

What truly renders this magnificent design so unique...... is it's
capacity to operate as either a power boat or sailboat while maintaining
it's reputation as the worst of both worlds.

Now you may well see this as boat bashing..... but in truth it's merely
enlightenment. The Macgregor is a vessel suited to those of little cash, no
experience and lacking all concept of boating in general.

The boat is suited for it's purpose...... I believe that you merely feel
uncomfortable with the mantle dictated by ownership.

Don't worry Jim... we're laughing at you .... not with you. ;-)

CM


You've sailed several Macs (but not the 26M). I've sailed O'Days,
Catalinas, Valiants, Endeavors, Cals, etc., in the 30 to 40 ft range.
They all have their good points, but none of them compares with the Mac
as far as versatility and resolution of the time issue.

Jim






"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...
|
|
| Capt. Mooron wrote:
| CRIPES!!!!!!!
|
| I tagged the basics and ended up with a cost of over 32 grand for what
| amounts to a dangerously under rigged, cheap plastic piece of **** with
the
| PHRF rating of a margarine container.
|
| You won't get pussy on that boat unless you have a "As when And Where"
| contract with a brothel.
|
| I can't see any major difference between the "X" & "M"......
|
| CM
|
|
|
| There are major differences between the two boats, including an entirely
| new hull design, new keel, new sail configuration, different ballast,
| etc., etc., etc. These differences have been discussed in detail in the
| past few weeks.
|
| Of course, if you are more interested in posting Mac-Bashing notes on
| the ng and getting "atta-boys" from your buddies, you probably don't
| have much interest in the facts, do you CM?
|
| Jim
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| "Scott Vernon" wrote in message
| ...
| | Just look at the POS!
| | http://www.havencraft.com/Index.asp
| |
| | A pic is worth a thousand words, in this case all negative.
| |
| | Scotty
| |
|
|
|

STOP the MADNESS
 

katysails wrote:

Now Jim, I'm going to tell you a true story, and if you've been lurking here
for as long as you say you have, you know I don't make things up. When we
had our O'Day 27 up for sale, which by the way was a 1976 model...the old
variety, the good variety of O'day, a young couple came to look at the boat.
They sat with us down in the cabin, with very forlorn faces. You see, they
had purchased a brand new Mac26X the previous summer, hated it and couldn't
sell it. They wanted to know if we would trade....needless to say, the
answer was "no". We did not bash their boat, but commiserated with them.
He stated that yes, it was great to motor around in, and that it would get
up and boogie under engine power, but that it stank as a sailboat. There
are several that "sail" on Muskegon Lake...they are not fast...they are not
even mediocre...when they can't get the thing to sail on the wind, they rev
up the engine's to reposition themselves. And that's the truth, whether you
want to admit it or not. Remember, an awful lot of people bought things
like Gremlins, Yugo's and Pacers...and they to went the way of most things
useless.

I don't doubt your story. (And it is, after all, an antidote that
doesn't say much about the other 30,000 Mac owners.) But I suspect that
if they were sailing their Mac near the Gulf coast as I will be, instead
of on a lake, there would be plenty of wind to keep them sailing.

I also notice that the contributors to the very active Mac discussion
groups seem as enthusiastic about sailing their boats and racing their
boats as those on any owner group on the net. Some of them have been
sailing their boats for years, and they are still getting great pleasure
from them.

As has also been discussed, those who have sailed the new 26M tell me
that its sailing performance is substantially improved.

Jim

STOP the MADNESS
 

Capt. Mooron wrote:

"Jim Cate" wrote in message

| In other words, can you back up your (libelous) remarks?

Yes....

CM

Really? Then let's see your statistics Capt. If, as you say, the Mac 26
is only a "cheap plastic piece of ****" that is "dangerously under
rigged," then there must be hundreds of them that are falling apart
every year, right? And since MacGregor has sold over 30,000 boats,
there must be at least 5,000 of them in which the rigging has come apart
in a moderate wind, or in which the boat has simply self-destructed and
sunk. - Right? If it's dangerously under rigged, the rigging must be
coming apart every time they go out in moderate winds.

Where's your stats on all those Macs that are falling apart because they
are "cheap plastic pieces of ****" and
"dangerously under rigged." - Give us some hard evidence without the
usual antecdotes, Mooron.

Put up or shut up.

Jim

STOP the MADNESS
 

katysails wrote:

Jim asked:
What education or degrees do you have that relate to aesthetics?

Actually, I did take some art courses, and I've visited art museums in
many countries and observed the design of lots of boats over the years.
But if you read my note carefully, I didn't actually claim to be an
expert in aesthetics. In fact, I didn't say anything about the good
looks of the new Mac, since it's all very subjective, and in the eye of
the beholder anyway, as you say. (It's not surprising that a klutz like
Johnathan wouldn't be capable of appreciating it.)

Actually, all I did was question Johnathan as to why anyone should
respect HIS opinions regarding boat design or aesthetics.

Jim



Give me a break. Now you are being absolutely ludicrous. Aesthetics is in
the eye of the beholder...and that includes art. There is no degree that
teaches you that. Aesthetics come from experience, from knowing what works,
what is practical, what is beautifful. Do you see any of the top boat
designers designing sailboats that look like Macs? NO! I'd venture Bob
Perry would gag. I'd say Buddy Melges would have a stroke. The French
designers would spit on you. Maybe you'd find someone in your court from
the old Coronado/Irwin camps....but probably not. You are buying a
butt-ugly, unaesthetic boat that is neither fish nor foul but a
hermaphrodite. And like most hermaphrodites, it is impotent.

STOP the MADNESS
 

And none of them except the Mac would be bought by a fool like you.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...


Capt. Mooron wrote:

"She's Dead Jim"......

I've been on a couple of Macs... the 19 the 26X. I've sailed on them....
[
and I use the term lightly].... in a variety of conditions. In each
case
and condition..... the vessels have never disappointed me in their
ability
to deliver substandard performance parameters and yet exceed the
boundaries
of discomfort.

What truly renders this magnificent design so unique...... is it's
capacity to operate as either a power boat or sailboat while maintaining
it's reputation as the worst of both worlds.

Now you may well see this as boat bashing..... but in truth it's merely
enlightenment. The Macgregor is a vessel suited to those of little
cash, no
experience and lacking all concept of boating in general.

The boat is suited for it's purpose...... I believe that you merely
feel
uncomfortable with the mantle dictated by ownership.

Don't worry Jim... we're laughing at you .... not with you. ;-)

CM


You've sailed several Macs (but not the 26M). I've sailed O'Days,
Catalinas, Valiants, Endeavors, Cals, etc., in the 30 to 40 ft range.
They all have their good points, but none of them compares with the Mac
as far as versatility and resolution of the time issue.

Jim






"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...
|
|
| Capt. Mooron wrote:
| CRIPES!!!!!!!
|
| I tagged the basics and ended up with a cost of over 32 grand for
what
| amounts to a dangerously under rigged, cheap plastic piece of ****
with
the
| PHRF rating of a margarine container.
|
| You won't get pussy on that boat unless you have a "As when And
Where"
| contract with a brothel.
|
| I can't see any major difference between the "X" & "M"......
|
| CM
|
|
|
| There are major differences between the two boats, including an
entirely
| new hull design, new keel, new sail configuration, different ballast,
| etc., etc., etc. These differences have been discussed in detail in
the
| past few weeks.
|
| Of course, if you are more interested in posting Mac-Bashing notes on
| the ng and getting "atta-boys" from your buddies, you probably don't
| have much interest in the facts, do you CM?
|
| Jim
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| "Scott Vernon" wrote in message
| ...
| | Just look at the POS!
| | http://www.havencraft.com/Index.asp
| |
| | A pic is worth a thousand words, in this case all negative.
| |
| | Scotty
| |
|
|
|

STOP the MADNESS
 

Well, there are a lot of idiots in the world. 30,000 seems like a small
number.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...
I don't doubt your story. (And it is, after all, an antidote that
doesn't say much about the other 30,000 Mac owners.) But I suspect that
if they were sailing their Mac near the Gulf coast as I will be, instead
of on a lake, there would be plenty of wind to keep them sailing.

Well, what do you expect them to say... that they got ripped off??

I also notice that the contributors to the very active Mac discussion
groups seem as enthusiastic about sailing their boats and racing their
boats as those on any owner group on the net. Some of them have been
sailing their boats for years, and they are still getting great pleasure
from them.

Sort of like you being "above average" in intelligence?

As has also been discussed, those who have sailed the new 26M tell me
that its sailing performance is substantially improved.

Jim

STOP the MADNESS
 

He doesn't have to. Most Macs get sailed once, then
the person gets something else, shuts up about his/her
"sailing experience," drowns, or posts like you.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...


Capt. Mooron wrote:

"Jim Cate" wrote in message

| In other words, can you back up your (libelous) remarks?

Yes....

CM

Really? Then let's see your statistics Capt. If, as you say, the Mac 26
is only a "cheap plastic piece of ****" that is "dangerously under
rigged," then there must be hundreds of them that are falling apart
every year, right? And since MacGregor has sold over 30,000 boats,
there must be at least 5,000 of them in which the rigging has come apart
in a moderate wind, or in which the boat has simply self-destructed and
sunk. - Right? If it's dangerously under rigged, the rigging must be
coming apart every time they go out in moderate winds.

Where's your stats on all those Macs that are falling apart because they
are "cheap plastic pieces of ****" and
"dangerously under rigged." - Give us some hard evidence without the
usual antecdotes, Mooron.

Put up or shut up.

Jim

STOP the MADNESS
 

MacBoy,

Actually, given your lack of sophistication, I'm not shocked that
you would like they're looks.

And, FYI, if you don't think I have a valid point about the Mac
being butt-ugly, then why are you so worked up about it??

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...


katysails wrote:

Jim asked:
What education or degrees do you have that relate to aesthetics?

Actually, I did take some art courses, and I've visited art museums in
many countries and observed the design of lots of boats over the years.
But if you read my note carefully, I didn't actually claim to be an
expert in aesthetics. In fact, I didn't say anything about the good
looks of the new Mac, since it's all very subjective, and in the eye of
the beholder anyway, as you say. (It's not surprising that a klutz like
Johnathan wouldn't be capable of appreciating it.)

Actually, all I did was question Johnathan as to why anyone should
respect HIS opinions regarding boat design or aesthetics.

Jim



Give me a break. Now you are being absolutely ludicrous. Aesthetics is
in
the eye of the beholder...and that includes art. There is no degree
that
teaches you that. Aesthetics come from experience, from knowing what
works,
what is practical, what is beautifful. Do you see any of the top boat
designers designing sailboats that look like Macs? NO! I'd venture Bob
Perry would gag. I'd say Buddy Melges would have a stroke. The French
designers would spit on you. Maybe you'd find someone in your court
from
the old Coronado/Irwin camps....but probably not. You are buying a
butt-ugly, unaesthetic boat that is neither fish nor foul but a
hermaphrodite. And like most hermaphrodites, it is impotent.

STOP the MADNESS
 

Jim stupidly assumes:
if they were sailing their Mac near the Gulf coast as I will be, instead
of on a lake, there would be plenty of wind to keep them sailing.

Haven't sailed much on Lake Michigan, have you? I think in all the 26 years
we've been sailing I've seen maybe 3-4 days when there was actually no wind
and if, as you say, you've lurked here for a long while, you will have read
some of the harrowing accounts of the weather systems that plague Lake
Michigan....Muskegon Lake is just the outflow of the Muskegon River where
the marinas are sheltered...the Gulf, weather wise, is not comparable to
Lake Michigan. Lake Michigan is much more difficult to sail....
--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

STOP the MADNESS
 

What happened to ''the sea of Mich.''?


"katysails" wrote in message
...
Jim stupidly assumes:
if they were sailing their Mac near the Gulf coast as I will be, instead
of on a lake, there would be plenty of wind to keep them sailing.

Haven't sailed much on Lake Michigan, have you? I think in all the 26
years
we've been sailing I've seen maybe 3-4 days when there was actually no
wind
and if, as you say, you've lurked here for a long while, you will have
read
some of the harrowing accounts of the weather systems that plague Lake
Michigan....Muskegon Lake is just the outflow of the Muskegon River where
the marinas are sheltered...the Gulf, weather wise, is not comparable to
Lake Michigan. Lake Michigan is much more difficult to sail....
--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

STOP the MADNESS
 

Jim-Bo.... please stop this insanity! A quick look at any Mac will reveal
the hardware suitable for a Laser 16 or Optimus class. The hull oilcans at
the touch of a finger. Leaning out and holding the shroud causes the boat to
tip almost to a swamping level. The sails are cheap and the rigging is
frail. The drop keel sticks and frequently requires to be dropped by
slinging a loop of rope under the hull ....dragging it forward to catch on
the exposed portion of the keel to effect a complete drop.

The boat is not safe Jim..... that's all I can tell you. I you wish to live
in ignorance of the majority of the sailing community's advise... then be
prepared to deal with the consequences.

In so far as "racing" red Cloud.... Bwahahahahahahahahaaaa..... Joe will be
on the horizon before you even get that turtle trimmed to actually catch
wind.

CM





"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...
|
|
| Capt. Mooron wrote:
|
| "Jim Cate" wrote in message
|
| | In other words, can you back up your (libelous) remarks?
|
| Yes....
|
| CM
|
| Really? Then let's see your statistics Capt. If, as you say, the Mac 26
| is only a "cheap plastic piece of ****" that is "dangerously under
| rigged," then there must be hundreds of them that are falling apart
| every year, right? And since MacGregor has sold over 30,000 boats,
| there must be at least 5,000 of them in which the rigging has come apart
| in a moderate wind, or in which the boat has simply self-destructed and
| sunk. - Right? If it's dangerously under rigged, the rigging must be
| coming apart every time they go out in moderate winds.
|
| Where's your stats on all those Macs that are falling apart because they
| are "cheap plastic pieces of ****" and
| "dangerously under rigged." - Give us some hard evidence without the
| usual antecdotes, Mooron.
|
| Put up or shut up.
|
| Jim
|
|

STOP the MADNESS
 

"Capt. Mooron" wrote :

Jim-Bo.... please stop this insanity! A quick look at any Mac will
reveal...


Jim the Deaf dude has convinced me to buy the new Mac M...**NOT**

He's been the bigest troll since Bobby claimed to leave..although we know
now that he's been coaching him in drama with many willing victims, er
participants...

I'm ****ed at Jim the troll, because I wasn't smart enough to put him in the
kill file, I missed many posts I had intended to respond to...

LP (been through too many computers in an extremely small time table, and
that's my excuse! hehehee

STOP the MADNESS
 

Why would you put anyone as entertaining as Jim into a kill file??

Nature abhors a vacuum and it is only natural that something would drift in
to fill the massive hole left by Bob's departure. I think it kind of Bob to
apprentice Jim to the task of Troll.

What's with the computer problems to date?

CM

"Lady Pilot" wrote in message
news:_zohc.11098$c%3.4096@okepread02...
|
| "Capt. Mooron" wrote :
|
| Jim-Bo.... please stop this insanity! A quick look at any Mac will
| reveal...
|
|
| Jim the Deaf dude has convinced me to buy the new Mac M...**NOT**
|
| He's been the bigest troll since Bobby claimed to leave..although we know
| now that he's been coaching him in drama with many willing victims, er
| participants...
|
| I'm ****ed at Jim the troll, because I wasn't smart enough to put him in
the
| kill file, I missed many posts I had intended to respond to...
|
| LP (been through too many computers in an extremely small time table, and
| that's my excuse! hehehee
|
|

STOP the MADNESS
 

Capt. Mooron wrote:
Jim-Bo.... please stop this insanity! A quick look at any Mac will reveal
the hardware suitable for a Laser 16 or Optimus class. The hull oilcans at
the touch of a finger. Leaning out and holding the shroud causes the boat to
tip almost to a swamping level. The sails are cheap and the rigging is
frail. The drop keel sticks and frequently requires to be dropped by
slinging a loop of rope under the hull ....dragging it forward to catch on
the exposed portion of the keel to effect a complete drop.

The boat is not safe Jim..... that's all I can tell you. I you wish to live
in ignorance of the majority of the sailing community's advise... then be
prepared to deal with the consequences.

In so far as "racing" red Cloud.... Bwahahahahahahahahaaaa..... Joe will be
on the horizon before you even get that turtle trimmed to actually catch
wind.

CM

In other words, you can't back up your statements. - Is that what you
are saying, Capt? You have no evidence, no proof, no statistics
suggesting that the Macs are falling apart becasue of "cheap sails and
frail rigging," or that Mac owners are being stranded at sea, or being
lost at sea, because of poor build quality.


You can bluster and growl and post Mac-bashing notes, and post
antecdotes, but you have nothing substantive to back up your assertions.


And the reason you have no answer is ....because the Mac rigging and
sails AREN'T falling apart, and because Mac owners AREN'T being lost at
sea, and because Macs are returning to their home ports with their crew
safe and sound, and because the Mac standing rigging and running rigging
is doing its job, despite the fact that it doesn't look like the rigging
on your boat. (The Mac rigging is designed for a 3,000 pound boat with
300 sq. feet of sail, and it is entirely suitable for that application.)

It's time to put up or shut up, Capt. Or are you going to run away and
hide and ignore the quesions again? (And don't try to avoid the issue by
posting more anecdotes and slurs.)

Jim


"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...
|
|
| Capt. Mooron wrote:
|
| "Jim Cate" wrote in message
|
| | In other words, can you back up your (libelous) remarks?
|
| Yes....
|
| CM
|
| Really? Then let's see your statistics Capt. If, as you say, the Mac 26
| is only a "cheap plastic piece of ****" that is "dangerously under
| rigged," then there must be hundreds of them that are falling apart
| every year, right? And since MacGregor has sold over 30,000 boats,
| there must be at least 5,000 of them in which the rigging has come apart
| in a moderate wind, or in which the boat has simply self-destructed and
| sunk. - Right? If it's dangerously under rigged, the rigging must be
| coming apart every time they go out in moderate winds.
|
| Where's your stats on all those Macs that are falling apart because they
| are "cheap plastic pieces of ****" and
| "dangerously under rigged." - Give us some hard evidence without the
| usual antecdotes, Mooron.
|
| Put up or shut up.
|
| Jim
|
|

STOP the MADNESS
 

In other words, you're an idiot. Most MacCrap owners
figure out pretty quickly not to venture out. You'll get
there MacBoy. Keep trying.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...
In other words, you can't back up your statements. - Is that what you
are saying, Capt? You have no evidence, no proof, no statistics
suggesting that the Macs are falling apart becasue of "cheap sails and
frail rigging," or that Mac owners are being stranded at sea, or being
lost at sea, because of poor build quality.

STOP the MADNESS
 

Jonathan Ganz wrote:
In other words, you're an idiot. Most MacCrap owners
figure out pretty quickly not to venture out. You'll get
there MacBoy. Keep trying.


I challenged Moroon to put up and shut up. -He doesn't want to put his
cards on the table.

I'll extend the same challenge to you, Johnny. - DO YOU have any
evidence or statistics to help poor Moroon out of this embarrassing
situation? He is reduced to sputtering and growling and bragging about
his long sailing career so that he can avoid the question, and he could
use some help. (And in case you haven't figured it out yet, calling me
an idiot isn't going to cut it.)

Jim

STOP the MADNESS
 

Jonathan Ganz wrote:

MacBoy,

Actually, given your lack of sophistication, I'm not shocked that
you would like they're looks.

And, FYI, if you don't think I have a valid point about the Mac
being butt-ugly, then why are you so worked up about it??


Actually, I'm not. But from prior experience in discussions such as
this, I have learned that when opinionated morons like you don't get a
response, even to asinine statements like your comments about the Mac26M
appearance, they jump up and down and claim they have achieved a great
victory. Unfortunately, that's the way liars like you play the game.

Jim

STOP the MADNESS
 

"Jim Cate" wrote in message

| I challenged Moroon to put up and shut up. -He doesn't want to put his
| cards on the table.

My cards were made clear Jim.... there was a site posted here in reference
to a downed Mac... I've sailed on them several times.... from the Power
Sailor 19 to the Mac 26X. I've towed them out of harms way. I've tried in
vain to get them sailing well..... they refuse to get up on step when under
power. There were 4 of them in Yellowknife..... after 3 years there were
none.... they had to be hauled south to sell.

Remember when the salesman sold you an expensive vacuum cleaner that
wouldn't suck.... well now someone has sold you something that will. ;-D


CM