Pony Express wrote:
Just how big are you? We have had some pretty big
people in them, both for racing and learn to sail.
What don't you like about the acp? It's perfect
for club boats. No spider webbing or cracking
when boats bump and it stands up to hauling over a
beach far better than glass.

Agreed. The thing I don't like about the ACP boats is that they are
slippery. Stick-on non-skid improves things somewhat, but molded in
non-skid all over is better.


The thing I don't understand is why our
highschoolers don't like the JY's. They want
420's or FJ's because they're 'faster'. Truth is
that the JY is faster than either of them.

The JY is MUCH faster. Take a couple of JY-15s to a college sailing club
and jump into a few of their practices... or take them to a real regatta
against either FJs or 420s. The JY will literally sail rings around
them. In regattas I've been at, the slowest JY lapped the fastest 420.

The real reason why the kids want 420s or FJs is because that's what all
the college clubs have. Conformists!

15 years ago, when the JY was a new boat, I tried to break this cycle.
As a result, NC State has a fleet of JY-15s which we hosted regattas
with for a few year... all the racers loved them, the coaches all griped
about "strange boats" and most of them have bought at least two
replacement fleets of club 420s and/or FJs... and NC State still has
it's fleet of original JY-15s.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

You're preaching to the choir, Doug.
S


"DSK" wrote in message
. ..
:
: Pony Express wrote:
: Just how big are you? We have had some pretty
big
: people in them, both for racing and learn to
sail.
: What don't you like about the acp? It's
perfect
: for club boats. No spider webbing or cracking
: when boats bump and it stands up to hauling
over a
: beach far better than glass.
:
: Agreed. The thing I don't like about the ACP
boats is that they are
: slippery. Stick-on non-skid improves things
somewhat, but molded in
: non-skid all over is better.
:
:
: The thing I don't understand is why our
: highschoolers don't like the JY's. They want
: 420's or FJ's because they're 'faster'. Truth
is
: that the JY is faster than either of them.
:
: The JY is MUCH faster. Take a couple of JY-15s
to a college sailing club
: and jump into a few of their practices... or
take them to a real regatta
: against either FJs or 420s. The JY will
literally sail rings around
: them. In regattas I've been at, the slowest JY
lapped the fastest 420.
:
: The real reason why the kids want 420s or FJs is
because that's what all
: the college clubs have. Conformists!
:
: 15 years ago, when the JY was a new boat, I
tried to break this cycle.
: As a result, NC State has a fleet of JY-15s
which we hosted regattas
: with for a few year... all the racers loved
them, the coaches all griped
: about "strange boats" and most of them have
bought at least two
: replacement fleets of club 420s and/or FJs...
and NC State still has
: it's fleet of original JY-15s.
:
: Fresh Breezes- Doug King
:

Pony Express wrote:


The thing I don't understand is why our
highschoolers don't like the JY's. They want
420's or FJ's because they're 'faster'. Truth is
that the JY is faster than either of them.

The 420 and the FJ are standard collegiate racing boats. The JY is
not. I think that's part of the prejudice, even though as you correctly
state the JY is signifignantly faster than the 420 or the 14-foot sleep
aid known as the Flying Junior.

So, why isn't the JY a college racing boat? Part of it's tradition,
surely, but there's another piece of the puzzle that I just found out a
couple of weeks ago. A lot of college racing is team racing where boat
handling and tactics is more important than boat speed. The problem
with the JY is that it's hard to stop it cold in it's tracks. Now, you
might not think "stopping the boat" is all that important in racing, but
it is at the collegiate level.



--
//-Walt
//
//

Pony Express wrote:
The thing I don't understand is why our
highschoolers don't like the JY's. They want
420's or FJ's because they're 'faster'. Truth is
that the JY is faster than either of them.



Walt wrote:
The 420 and the FJ are standard collegiate racing boats. The JY is
not. I think that's part of the prejudice, even though as you correctly
state the JY is signifignantly faster than the 420 or the 14-foot sleep
aid known as the Flying Junior.

C'mon, I used to race FJs... the boat was designed as the "Flying
*Dutchman* Junior" and decided to drop the D-word. Back in it's day it
was a relatively fast boat. And to my eye, it's a better looking boat
than the 420 (which looks as though it should have ball claw feet on
each corner).



So, why isn't the JY a college racing boat? Part of it's tradition,
surely, but there's another piece of the puzzle that I just found out a
couple of weeks ago. A lot of college racing is team racing where boat
handling and tactics is more important than boat speed. The problem
with the JY is that it's hard to stop it cold in it's tracks. Now, you
might not think "stopping the boat" is all that important in racing, but
it is at the collegiate level.

I like it. We need a new ad campaign: "Sail the Club 420 and FJ...
they're easy to stop!"

It's a trivial point. If both teams were sailing JYs, then it would
still be equal. Another issue, real but relatively trivial, is that the
JY is not as sensitive to dirty air as either 420 or FJ.

It's also true that college racing emphasizes tactics, but even in a
fast boat, the issue is more boat handling & avoiding tactical errors
than putting on brilliant chessmaster moves. In a faster boat on a
shorter course, the only tactics that are diminished is the importance
of wind shifts. Everything else is still in play, with the added bonus
that teams falling behand can put on a burst of speed and get back in
the hunt... there is never a parade, never a safe lead.

OTOH in slower boats that stop easily, are tricky to get to point high,
don't accelerate well, and are sensitive to dirty air, 90% of the race
is decided at the start. Well OK, 70% decided at the start and 20%
decided in practice drills the month beforehand.

The real issue is that the Johnstones failed utterly at marketing the JY
to collegiate teams. And that's a shame IMHO. The JY has much better
longevity and is far more cost effective. Furthermore the economies of
scale that would kick in if they made a couple thousand of them a year,
instead of a couple hundred, would drop the price significantly.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

I'll agree on the tradition part. Tactics can't
be used as an excuse not to use a JY, though.
And some or these generalizations about specific
boats are garbage. They say you have to foot the
JY, but we have a pincher who chronically places
at (or near) the top.
As with any one design, tactics and boat handling
are what always win.
If you just want a boat that will stop, then you
should try our Xcites. Of course, we tried to
get our high schooler to try them for training,
and they refused. It could be that when they
single hand, they have no one to blame their
mistakes on.
S

"Walt" wrote in message
...
: Pony Express wrote:
:
:
: The thing I don't understand is why our
: highschoolers don't like the JY's. They want
: 420's or FJ's because they're 'faster'. Truth
is
: that the JY is faster than either of them.
:
: The 420 and the FJ are standard collegiate
racing boats. The JY is
: not. I think that's part of the prejudice, even
though as you correctly
: state the JY is signifignantly faster than the
420 or the 14-foot sleep
: aid known as the Flying Junior.
:
: So, why isn't the JY a college racing boat?
Part of it's tradition,
: surely, but there's another piece of the puzzle
that I just found out a
: couple of weeks ago. A lot of college racing is
team racing where boat
: handling and tactics is more important than boat
speed. The problem
: with the JY is that it's hard to stop it cold in
it's tracks. Now, you
: might not think "stopping the boat" is all that
important in racing, but
: it is at the collegiate level.
:
:
:
: --
: //-Walt
: //
: //

DSK wrote:
much snippage

I like it. We need a new ad campaign: "Sail the Club 420 and FJ...
they're easy to stop!"

It's a trivial point. If both teams were sailing JYs, then it would
still be equal.

True enough. But you could say the same about whiskey barrels fitted
out with bedsheets and bromsticks...


It's also true that college racing emphasizes tactics, but even in a
fast boat, the issue is more boat handling & avoiding tactical errors
than putting on brilliant chessmaster moves.

Ever done any team racing, Doug? It's a bizarre sport. Very different
than fleet or match racing. For instance, in 3 on 3 team racing if your
team can block two of your opponents boats with one of your boats you're
almost sure to win that heat. There's a lot of "put yourself in front
of your opponent and put on the brakes" in team racing. The ability to
start and stop the boats on a dime makes this game more fun, hence the
preference for the 420 over the JY.


The real issue is that the Johnstones failed utterly at marketing the JY
to collegiate teams. And that's a shame IMHO. The JY has much better
longevity and is far more cost effective. Furthermore the economies of
scale that would kick in if they made a couple thousand of them a year,
instead of a couple hundred, would drop the price significantly.

Well, the JY beongs to Hunter now, so we'll see what they can do with it
marketing wise. There are many things I don't like about the JY, and
many things I do. On balance I think it's a very good choice for a club
or collegiate fleet or for anybody who wants to casually race
one-design.


--
//-Walt
//
//

Pony Express wrote:

I'll agree on the tradition part. Tactics can't
be used as an excuse not to use a JY, though.

I'm just repeating what some of the college racers have told me. With a
420 they can pull in front of an opponent and put on the brakes. That
maneuver is less effective in a JY.

And some or these generalizations about specific
boats are garbage. They say you have to foot the
JY, but we have a pincher who chronically places
at (or near) the top.
As with any one design, tactics and boat handling
are what always win.

And here I thought it was the lucky wind shift that mattered. (c:


--
//-Walt
//
//

Everybody's a comedian.
S

"Walt" wrote in message
...
:
:
: And here I thought it was the lucky wind shift
that mattered. (c:
:
:
: --
: //-Walt
: //
: //

A frequently stated but nevertheless illogical point.

Cheers

DSK wrote:


Agreed. Even the high performance keel boats cannot possibly duplicate
the responsiveness of small fast racing dinghy. That's probably why all
the world's best racing skippers earned their stripes in one or another
of the fast centerboard classes before moving into the high-dollar
sailing world.

DSK wrote:



When has a sense of false bravado prevented anyone from listening to the
truth?



Good lord!

Cheers