|
Captain Klutz?
Kerry only served 4 mo. in Vietnam and he pinned on 3 Purple Hearts.
Sounds like Magnet Ass the Raven pilot. But he kept flying. Capt. American |
Captain Klutz?
Capt.American wrote:
Kerry only served 4 mo. in Vietnam and he pinned on 3 Purple Hearts. Sounds like bad luck all right. OTOH the PBRs were right in the thick of it. They covered more area and interdicted more VC traffic (there are a lot more rivers in Viet Nam than roads) than most ground units would. Some years ago, by random chance I picked up 'My Father, My Son' by Elmo Zumwalt Jr and Sr. It was a riveting book, one of the few I have read in my life that I literally could not put down. He gives a very good and careful account of river combat in Viet Nam. Sounds like Magnet Ass the Raven pilot. LOL now there's a nickname that nobody wants. Now tell us again why you feel compelled to repeat all this slander propogated by Bush & Cheney Inc? Are you worried that they might lose the upcoming election if you don't bust a gut trying to make Kerry look bad? Regards Doug King |
Captain Klutz?
Better than The Cheater and Lying Asshole from Kennebunkport via Crawford.
-- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Capt.American" wrote in message om... Kerry only served 4 mo. in Vietnam and he pinned on 3 Purple Hearts. Sounds like Magnet Ass the Raven pilot. But he kept flying. Capt. American |
Captain Klutz?
DSK wrote in message .. .
Capt.American wrote: Kerry only served 4 mo. in Vietnam and he pinned on 3 Purple Hearts. Sounds like bad luck all right. OTOH the PBRs were right in the thick of it. They covered more area and interdicted more VC traffic (there are a lot more rivers in Viet Nam than roads) than most ground units would. Agreeded but 3 in 4 mo, come on. And with only 4 mo in country he never had the time to learn anything. Sounds like a green recruit going gung ho ****ting his pants pops of a few thousand ma duce rounds then runs home. PT 109 it was not. Tell me about the boat and crew you knew like the back of your hand in 4 mo. Some years ago, by random chance I picked up 'My Father, My Son' by Elmo Zumwalt Jr and Sr. It was a riveting book, one of the few I have read in my life that I literally could not put down. He gives a very good and careful account of river combat in Viet Nam. I'll check it out. Sounds like my kind of book. Sounds like Magnet Ass the Raven pilot. LOL now there's a nickname that nobody wants. Yeah he was one of those Laos CIA pilots, he was a fac shot down to many times Now tell us again why you feel compelled to repeat all this slander propogated by Bush & Cheney Inc? Is it slander if it's the truth? Are you worried that they might lose the upcoming election if you don't bust a gut trying to make Kerry look bad? No not really. All I want is a president that will follow thru and squash any terrorist group that even sneezes towards the USA. Someone that will spit in the face of terrorist demands. Not someone that is whissey wasshey and dont know where the fight is. Capt. American Capt. American Regards Doug King |
Captain Klutz?
What happened? Did you miss the first 11 steps in your 12 step?
-- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Capt.American" wrote in message om... DSK wrote in message .. . Capt.American wrote: Kerry only served 4 mo. in Vietnam and he pinned on 3 Purple Hearts. Sounds like bad luck all right. OTOH the PBRs were right in the thick of it. They covered more area and interdicted more VC traffic (there are a lot more rivers in Viet Nam than roads) than most ground units would. Agreeded but 3 in 4 mo, come on. And with only 4 mo in country he never had the time to learn anything. Sounds like a green recruit going gung ho ****ting his pants pops of a few thousand ma duce rounds then runs home. PT 109 it was not. Tell me about the boat and crew you knew like the back of your hand in 4 mo. Some years ago, by random chance I picked up 'My Father, My Son' by Elmo Zumwalt Jr and Sr. It was a riveting book, one of the few I have read in my life that I literally could not put down. He gives a very good and careful account of river combat in Viet Nam. I'll check it out. Sounds like my kind of book. Sounds like Magnet Ass the Raven pilot. LOL now there's a nickname that nobody wants. Yeah he was one of those Laos CIA pilots, he was a fac shot down to many times Now tell us again why you feel compelled to repeat all this slander propogated by Bush & Cheney Inc? Is it slander if it's the truth? Are you worried that they might lose the upcoming election if you don't bust a gut trying to make Kerry look bad? No not really. All I want is a president that will follow thru and squash any terrorist group that even sneezes towards the USA. Someone that will spit in the face of terrorist demands. Not someone that is whissey wasshey and dont know where the fight is. Capt. American Capt. American Regards Doug King |
Captain Klutz?
"Capt.American" wrote...
Tell me about the boat and crew you knew like the back of your hand in 4 mo. Shucks, any boat I've raced... takes only a couple of afternoons. Some years ago, by random chance I picked up 'My Father, My Son' by Elmo Zumwalt Jr and Sr. It was a riveting book, one of the few I have read in my life that I literally could not put down. He gives a very good and careful account of river combat in Viet Nam. I'll check it out. Sounds like my kind of book. I should warn you that Elmo Zumwalt Junior died of cancer due to his exposure to Agent Orange, which his father ordered sprayed all over the PBR operating zones. About half the book is about his childhood and his dying, from the point of view of both men. Back when I was in the Navy, people made fun of Adm. Zumwalt, but after reading this book I will not. Now tell us again why you feel compelled to repeat all this slander propogated by Bush & Cheney Inc? Is it slander if it's the truth? Is it? Kerry went to Viet Nam and got shot at. Bush went AWOL (in between DUIs) and lied about it. Simple fact. Frankly I don't believe anything either party says, but bear inmind that Bush & Cheney Inc have at least 5X the advertising budget. ... All I want is a president that will follow thru and squash any terrorist group that even sneezes towards the USA. Someone that will spit in the face of terrorist demands. Not someone that is whissey wasshey and dont know where the fight is. Considering what a chicken**** Bush was on Sept 11th, at first not reacting at all, then running away and hiding, and then lying about it, I don't see how you think he is going to ever do any of those things. At least Kerry performed under fire, whatever you may think of his actions since then. DSK |
Captain Klutz?
DSK wrote in message .. .
"Capt.American" wrote... Tell me about the boat and crew you knew like the back of your hand in 4 mo. Shucks, any boat I've raced... takes only a couple of afternoons. Perhaps a sunfish. But I doubt it. I've sailed several boat for years and never did feel that I could not learn more. Always a way to get just a little more out of her. Some years ago, by random chance I picked up 'My Father, My Son' by Elmo Zumwalt Jr and Sr. It was a riveting book, one of the few I have read in my life that I literally could not put down. He gives a very good and careful account of river combat in Viet Nam. I'll check it out. Sounds like my kind of book. I should warn you that Elmo Zumwalt Junior died of cancer due to his exposure to Agent Orange, which his father ordered sprayed all over the PBR operating zones. Hind site is always 20/20. Im sure Elmo Sr was dupped by the dupont clan as others were at the time. About half the book is about his childhood and his dying, from the point of view of both men. Back when I was in the Navy, people made fun of Adm. Zumwalt, but after reading this book I will not. Any body that served honorably deserves respect even Kerry. It sure would be nice to have the chance to elect a President that was not born with a silver spoon in his mouth. Now tell us again why you feel compelled to repeat all this slander propogated by Bush & Cheney Inc? Is it slander if it's the truth? Is it? Kerry went to Viet Nam and got shot at. Bush went AWOL (in between DUIs) and lied about it. Simple fact. Frankly I don't believe anything either party says, but bear inmind that Bush & Cheney Inc have at least 5X the advertising budget. That IMO is the big problem with politics today. Money should be taken out of the equation. All persons nominated for president should be given the same amount of money to wage a campian. Anyone caught taking special interest money should be charged with a crime. ... All I want is a president that will follow thru and squash any terrorist group that even sneezes towards the USA. Someone that will spit in the face of terrorist demands. Not someone that is whissey wasshey and dont know where the fight is. Considering what a chicken**** Bush was on Sept 11th, at first not reacting at all, then running away and hiding, and then lying about it, I don't see how you think he is going to ever do any of those things. At least Kerry performed under fire, whatever you may think of his actions since then. Performance should be judged against all the preformed. Many Vets spent several tours received purple hearts and chose to stay and finish the job and cover their buddies back. Kerry IMO was trying to become president even back then. He stuck his neck out and found out that the real world is not staffed with servents in white coats bringing you drinks on deck of a PBR. He ventured were the common man was getting killed or was killing every day and he coulden't hang. Thats what worries me. If he become president and we have to continue a fierce fight against terrorist and terrorist supporting states will he be able to hang in there to the bitter end. Regardless of the cost. We have all seen what low down dirty sticking MF terrorist are and there willingness to kill and we must have a leader that is willing to kill them before they kill us. Vietnam had some ruthless **** going on but it is nothing on the scale of ruthlessness that ossama is willing to sink to. We need to stomp and stomp hard. No more sucker punches needed for me to get the message, **** I got the message when the USS Cole was attacked. I hate to say it but I think this war has just begun. Do you think Kerry will stick it out, or will he side with the Bagdad Janes of the world and walk down that path he walked before?. Capt. American DSK |
Captain Klutz?
"Capt.American" wrote...
Tell me about the boat and crew you knew like the back of your hand in 4 mo. Shucks, any boat I've raced... takes only a couple of afternoons. Perhaps a sunfish. But I doubt it. I've sailed several boat for years and never did feel that I could not learn more. I guess it depends on what you mean by "know like the back of your hand." Usually after an hour or so I feel that I can sail the boat at least 90% as well as anybody. Of course that hour is work (but is also fun). For example, last time I went out for "practice" with a local PHRF racer they had the idea that just sailing up and down the river, occasionally with the spinnaker up, was "practice." I said, let's do this for real. We worked out way upwind, with eyes rigorously on compass & water & wind, working out the best ways to tack and then throwing some quick tacks at the crew. Then we did about eight or ten spinnaker hoists, working on the fastest ways to get it set & pulling. It turned out we didn't have time to work on douses (which IMHO is actually more important in most races). When we got back, the owner thanked me sincerely and the rest of the crew said they felt whipped. .... Always a way to get just a little more out of her. If you're a rock star sailmaker with a million bucks, yeah you can squeeze 0.001 knot more out of anything. But most of the time people cannot apply the basics consistently, that is where the gains are made and that is one thing I am good at (not to brag, it's the classic engineer's methodical approach that pays off... drives most people up the wall). However, to know absolutely every nuance of how the boat sails under every possible condition takes more time, as well as knowing all the wiring and all the plumbing and every inch of the structure etc etc. I should warn you that Elmo Zumwalt Junior died of cancer due to his exposure to Agent Orange, which his father ordered sprayed all over the PBR operating zones. Hind site is always 20/20. Im sure Elmo Sr was dupped by the dupont clan as others were at the time. Well, he had a bit to say about the politics of running that war, in fact that's how he ended up as CNO. He was a candidate, and invited to a meeting with several other really top brass, and they discussed how the Navy could contribute to winning the war. He came away shocked at the lack of strategic insight at the top. But he took the job. As for Agent Orange, he explained that quite clearly... the VC, NLF, and NVA used the rivers for shipping weapons; the Navy had a way to stop them. But it was costly because the rivers with dense jungle canopy were perfect spots for ambush. Take away the lush jungle greenery, presto no more ambushes. He said that even knowing what it cost him personally, he would do the same thing again in the same circumstances. It is rather cold logic. It sure would be nice to have the chance to elect a President that was not born with a silver spoon in his mouth. Agreed, but I don't see it happening in the near future. Getting into politics is a big money game. Clinton was the poorest President since Truman. Swarzenegger rose from pretty humble beginnings. John Edwards did too but got where he is as an ambulance chasing malpractice attorney. He has a lot of powerful enemies and will be a major barrier to a successful administration if he stays involved, although he sure seems to be a champion vote-getter & rabble-rouser. ... Thats what worries me. If he become president and we have to continue a fierce fight against terrorist and terrorist supporting states will he be able to hang in there to the bitter end. Regardless of the cost. We have all seen what low down dirty sticking MF terrorist are and there willingness to kill and we must have a leader that is willing to kill them before they kill us. Vietnam had some ruthless **** going on but it is nothing on the scale of ruthlessness that ossama is willing to sink to. We need to stomp and stomp hard. No more sucker punches needed for me to get the message, **** I got the message when the USS Cole was attacked. I hate to say it but I think this war has just begun. Where have you been? This war has been going on since the 1970s if not the 1940s. And the current administration is doing some stomping, but not in a constructive way. I agree that proven enemies should be taken out ASAP, but the facts are that Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are supporting more terrorist organizations that Afghanistan (a very very poor country) and Iraq. They are targets of convenience, a chance for the military-industrial complex to make lots of money. If you want to end the war on terrorism, we need to do two things... 1- get back on track for a realistic peace between Israel and the Palestinians and 2- root out the money trail and go after the deep pockets, whoever they are. Bush & Cheney Inc is messing up on both fronts, big time. By backing Israel to the hilt, no matter what, we become bigger targets for increasing numbers of fanatics; and by allowing the friends of rich & powerful oil businessmen to support terrorist groups, we are financing our worst enemies through our energy dependency and sending the message that we do not have either the brains nor the willpower to find & kill them. Killing the wrong people, such as 10,000+ Iraqi civilians (every one a potential ally), will only make the situation worse. The USS Cole was bad enough, but look up the USS Stark and the USS Vincennes incidents. Do you think Kerry will stick it out, or will he side with the Bagdad Janes of the world and walk down that path he walked before?. I think that almost anybody, with the possible exception of Jerry Falwell, would make a better President than George Bush Jr. I did not think much of his father, but Bush Sr was twice the President and five times the man his son is. Kerry would not be my first choice but he can't help but be an imporvement. The question is, given Bush & Cheney's massive advertising budget, can they fool (or just distract) enough of the people who will actually go out & vote? Regards Doug King |
Captain Klutz?
Capt.American wrote:
I'll check it out. Sounds like my kind of book. I should warn you that Elmo Zumwalt Junior died of cancer due to his exposure to Agent Orange, which his father ordered sprayed all over the PBR operating zones. Hind site is always 20/20. Im sure Elmo Sr was dupped by the dupont clan as others were at the time. Um, not duPont, Agent Orange, (largely dioxin) was manufactured by Dow Chemicals, (Monsanto). Cheers Marty ------------ And now a word from our sponsor --------------------- For a secure high performance FTP using SSL/TLS encryption upgrade to SurgeFTP ---- See http://netwinsite.com/sponsor/sponsor_surgeftp.htm ---- |
Captain Klutz?
Wow, a war hero....
-- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Dave" wrote in message ... On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 09:35:13 -0500, Martin Baxter said: Um, not duPont, Agent Orange, (largely dioxin) was manufactured by Dow Chemicals, (Monsanto). Actually, I believe it was manufactured by several producers. The Agent Orange litigation dragged on for years, and included a variety of companies as defendants, including Uniroyal Chemical which my then firm represented. Dave S/V Good Fortune CS27 |
Captain Klutz?
Dave wrote:
On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 09:35:13 -0500, Martin Baxter said: Um, not duPont, Agent Orange, (largely dioxin) was manufactured by Dow Chemicals, (Monsanto). Actually, I believe it was manufactured by several producers. The Agent Orange litigation dragged on for years, and included a variety of companies as defendants, including Uniroyal Chemical which my then firm represented. Indeed, Dave, I believe you are correct. I think Dow originally developed the stuff for Monsanto (which it then owned, probably still does) to use in the course of normal agriculture. I use the term "normal" very loosely here. Dow then licensed its' production to other companies, I think a bunch was made up here in Canada by CIL, then owned by ICE. Cheers Marty |
Captain Klutz?
DSK wrote in message t...
"Capt.American" wrote... Tell me about the boat and crew you knew like the back of your hand in 4 mo. Shucks, any boat I've raced... takes only a couple of afternoons. Perhaps a sunfish. But I doubt it. I've sailed several boat for years and never did feel that I could not learn more. I guess it depends on what you mean by "know like the back of your hand." Were you would by confident to command the vessel in a war zone and by responsable for the lives of your crew. Usually after an hour or so I feel that I can sail the boat at least 90% as well as anybody. Of course that hour is work (but is also fun). For example, last time I went out for "practice" with a local PHRF racer they had the idea that just sailing up and down the river, occasionally with the spinnaker up, was "practice." I said, let's do this for real. We worked out way upwind, with eyes rigorously on compass & water & wind, working out the best ways to tack and then throwing some quick tacks at the crew. Then we did about eight or ten spinnaker hoists, working on the fastest ways to get it set & pulling. It turned out we didn't have time to work on douses (which IMHO is actually more important in most races). When we got back, the owner thanked me sincerely and the rest of the crew said they felt whipped. .... Always a way to get just a little more out of her. If you're a rock star sailmaker with a million bucks, yeah you can squeeze 0.001 knot more out of anything. But most of the time people cannot apply the basics consistently, that is where the gains are made and that is one thing I am good at (not to brag, it's the classic engineer's methodical approach that pays off... drives most people up the wall). I would of never guessed. However, to know absolutely every nuance of how the boat sails under every possible condition takes more time, as well as knowing all the wiring and all the plumbing and every inch of the structure etc etc. I should warn you that Elmo Zumwalt Junior died of cancer due to his exposure to Agent Orange, which his father ordered sprayed all over the PBR operating zones. Hind site is always 20/20. Im sure Elmo Sr was dupped by the dupont clan as others were at the time. Well, he had a bit to say about the politics of running that war, in fact that's how he ended up as CNO. He was a candidate, and invited to a meeting with several other really top brass, and they discussed how the Navy could contribute to winning the war. He came away shocked at the lack of strategic insight at the top. But he took the job. As for Agent Orange, he explained that quite clearly... the VC, NLF, and NVA used the rivers for shipping weapons; the Navy had a way to stop them. But it was costly because the rivers with dense jungle canopy were perfect spots for ambush. Take away the lush jungle greenery, presto no more ambushes. He said that even knowing what it cost him personally, he would do the same thing again in the same circumstances. It is rather cold logic. Sounds like he gave all for his troops. It sure would be nice to have the chance to elect a President that was not born with a silver spoon in his mouth. Agreed, but I don't see it happening in the near future. Getting into politics is a big money game. Clinton was the poorest President since Truman. Swarzenegger rose from pretty humble beginnings. John Edwards did too but got where he is as an ambulance chasing malpractice attorney. He has a lot of powerful enemies and will be a major barrier to a successful administration if he stays involved, although he sure seems to be a champion vote-getter & rabble-rouser. 2 words- Campain reform ... Thats what worries me. If he become president and we have to continue a fierce fight against terrorist and terrorist supporting states will he be able to hang in there to the bitter end. Regardless of the cost. We have all seen what low down dirty sticking MF terrorist are and there willingness to kill and we must have a leader that is willing to kill them before they kill us. Vietnam had some ruthless **** going on but it is nothing on the scale of ruthlessness that ossama is willing to sink to. We need to stomp and stomp hard. No more sucker punches needed for me to get the message, **** I got the message when the USS Cole was attacked. I hate to say it but I think this war has just begun. Where have you been? This war has been going on since the 1970s if not the 1940s. And the current administration is doing some stomping, but not in a constructive way. I agree that proven enemies should be taken out ASAP, but the facts are that Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are supporting more terrorist organizations that Afghanistan (a very very poor country) and Iraq. They are targets of convenience, a chance for the military-industrial complex to make lots of money. If you want to end the war on terrorism, we need to do two things... 1- get back on track for a realistic peace between Israel and the Palestinians and 2- root out the money trail and go after the deep pockets, whoever they are. Bush & Cheney Inc is messing up on both fronts, big time. By backing Israel to the hilt, no matter what, we become bigger targets for increasing numbers of fanatics; and by allowing the friends of rich & powerful oil businessmen to support terrorist groups, we are financing our worst enemies through our energy dependency and sending the message that we do not have either the brains nor the willpower to find & kill them. Killing the wrong people, such as 10,000+ Iraqi civilians (every one a potential ally), will only make the situation worse. The USS Cole was bad enough, but look up the USS Stark and the USS Vincennes incidents. I'm well aware of both incidents. And both were handled like police investigations and under the table. That again raises my doubts that John Kerry can man the helm in these trouble waters. John Kerry who suggested that the fight against terror should be ''primarily an intelligence-gathering, law enforcement operation.'' This approach is an exercise in futility and a proven failure. A war requires a full-fledged military response if you're going to be serious about national security and rooting out terrorism. Do you think Kerry will stick it out, or will he side with the Bagdad Janes of the world and walk down that path he walked before?. I think that almost anybody, with the possible exception of Jerry Falwell, would make a better President than George Bush Jr. I did not think much of his father, but Bush Sr was twice the President and five times the man his son is. Kerry would not be my first choice but he can't help but be an imporvement. The question is, given Bush & Cheney's massive advertising budget, can they fool (or just distract) enough of the people who will actually go out & vote? Advertising today is less of an effective tool in politics thanks to the internet. Massive bugets do not always win elections. People are researching the facts. The most important issue IMO is national security. American needs to prevent the next 9/11. And the only way we will win is to kill them first. They have made that quite clear. Quote from AlQuieda Tape found in Madrid " You love life-We love Death" Lets keep what we love, and give them what they love. All ya need is Love......Da..da.... da da du. Capt. American Regards Doug King |
Captain Klutz?
"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ...
Wow, a war hero.... Jonathan, To jest in the face of many that died trying to keep the world free is down right low. My buddy Micheal had stomach cancer at 45years old. He was a medic in nam. In the hot spots he felt it was a relief not to have to worry about some bananna rat popin his head open from the tree's foliage. Yet he never knew he was waiding thru a jungle that would 30 years later give him cancer, he was just out to save lives. He is a brilliant guy, yet his cancer stymied him. He settled for a very low stress occupation,when IMO he was suited for a career that would make him wealthy, yet was much stressful. If you want to joke around~~~Find something to joke about that is funny. Capt. American -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Dave" wrote in message ... On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 09:35:13 -0500, Martin Baxter said: Um, not duPont, Agent Orange, (largely dioxin) was manufactured by Dow Chemicals, (Monsanto). Actually, I believe it was manufactured by several producers. The Agent Orange litigation dragged on for years, and included a variety of companies as defendants, including Uniroyal Chemical which my then firm represented. Dave S/V Good Fortune CS27 |
Captain Klutz?
How about you? You're a stupid, ignorant asshole. Is that better?
-- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Capt.American" wrote in message om... "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... Wow, a war hero.... Jonathan, To jest in the face of many that died trying to keep the world free is down right low. My buddy Micheal had stomach cancer at 45years old. He was a medic in nam. In the hot spots he felt it was a relief not to have to worry about some bananna rat popin his head open from the tree's foliage. Yet he never knew he was waiding thru a jungle that would 30 years later give him cancer, he was just out to save lives. He is a brilliant guy, yet his cancer stymied him. He settled for a very low stress occupation,when IMO he was suited for a career that would make him wealthy, yet was much stressful. If you want to joke around~~~Find something to joke about that is funny. Capt. American -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Dave" wrote in message ... On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 09:35:13 -0500, Martin Baxter said: Um, not duPont, Agent Orange, (largely dioxin) was manufactured by Dow Chemicals, (Monsanto). Actually, I believe it was manufactured by several producers. The Agent Orange litigation dragged on for years, and included a variety of companies as defendants, including Uniroyal Chemical which my then firm represented. Dave S/V Good Fortune CS27 |
Captain Klutz?
http://www1.va.gov/opa/fact/docs/agentorangefs.htm
Agent Orange does cause certain types of cancer and has been linked to other diseases. It's major component, dioxin, is a carcenoid. I work with 2 nurses who have done their stints at the local VA hospital...the evidence, they say, is overwhelming, when you read the studies and the charts of those afflicted. I [personally had a friend who suffered with Hoskins disease for years before he succumbed...his tour of duty included being on the boats that went down the rivers spraying the stuff on either side to defoliate camouflage situations...he suffered miserably, but kept fighting it until he couldn't anymore. He died last year at the age of 60. He was a vital man, with no genetic history of any type of cancer in his family. I'm sure there were times when he must have thought the cancer raging through his system was much worse than the war he helped fight in Nam. -- katysails s/v Chanteuse Kirie Elite 32 http://katysails.tripod.com "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein |
Captain Klutz?
At the VA hospital here (next to Duke), they have been a learning a lot
of depressing things about Gulf War Syndrome. Apparently it's the result of taking the poison gas pre-antidote which the Army (in it's wisdom) insisted everybody take. DSK katysails wrote: http://www1.va.gov/opa/fact/docs/agentorangefs.htm Agent Orange does cause certain types of cancer and has been linked to other diseases. It's major component, dioxin, is a carcenoid. I work with 2 nurses who have done their stints at the local VA hospital...the evidence, they say, is overwhelming, when you read the studies and the charts of those afflicted. I [personally had a friend who suffered with Hoskins disease for years before he succumbed...his tour of duty included being on the boats that went down the rivers spraying the stuff on either side to defoliate camouflage situations...he suffered miserably, but kept fighting it until he couldn't anymore. He died last year at the age of 60. He was a vital man, with no genetic history of any type of cancer in his family. I'm sure there were times when he must have thought the cancer raging through his system was much worse than the war he helped fight in Nam. |
Captain Klutz?
"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ...
How about me? I'm a stupid, ignorant asshole. Is that better? -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com Somewhat gayz. CA "Capt.American" wrote in message om... "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... Wow, a war hero.... Jonathan, To jest in the face of many that died trying to keep the world free is down right low. My buddy Micheal had stomach cancer at 45years old. He was a medic in nam. In the hot spots he felt it was a relief not to have to worry about some bananna rat popin his head open from the tree's foliage. Yet he never knew he was waiding thru a jungle that would 30 years later give him cancer, he was just out to save lives. He is a brilliant guy, yet his cancer stymied him. He settled for a very low stress occupation,when IMO he was suited for a career that would make him wealthy, yet was much stressful. If you want to joke around~~~Find something to joke about that is funny. Capt. American -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Dave" wrote in message ... On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 09:35:13 -0500, Martin Baxter said: Um, not duPont, Agent Orange, (largely dioxin) was manufactured by Dow Chemicals, (Monsanto). Actually, I believe it was manufactured by several producers. The Agent Orange litigation dragged on for years, and included a variety of companies as defendants, including Uniroyal Chemical which my then firm represented. Dave S/V Good Fortune CS27 |
Captain Klutz?
Dave wrote:
How foolish to administer it before going up against a foe that had used poison gas against enemy soldiers in the past. When it causes crippling neurologic damage, yes. The Army already had (still has) effective anti-gas measures that do not have these side effects. So why administer an untested medication? 1- to test it 2- because "the right people" stand to make a profit selling this medication to the Army 3- all the above. Now, you cannot possibly grasp that the gov't (other than the Clintons) occasionally does bad things, so you will dismiss this as just more traitorous mud-slinging. Unfortunately it's the truth. Water does not run up hill, even if Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney both were to proclaim that it does. DSK |
Captain Klutz?
I agree. You are.
-- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Capt.American" wrote in message om... "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... How about me? I'm a stupid, ignorant asshole. Is that better? -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com Somewhat gayz. CA "Capt.American" wrote in message om... "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... Wow, a war hero.... Jonathan, To jest in the face of many that died trying to keep the world free is down right low. My buddy Micheal had stomach cancer at 45years old. He was a medic in nam. In the hot spots he felt it was a relief not to have to worry about some bananna rat popin his head open from the tree's foliage. Yet he never knew he was waiding thru a jungle that would 30 years later give him cancer, he was just out to save lives. He is a brilliant guy, yet his cancer stymied him. He settled for a very low stress occupation,when IMO he was suited for a career that would make him wealthy, yet was much stressful. If you want to joke around~~~Find something to joke about that is funny. Capt. American -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Dave" wrote in message ... On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 09:35:13 -0500, Martin Baxter said: Um, not duPont, Agent Orange, (largely dioxin) was manufactured by Dow Chemicals, (Monsanto). Actually, I believe it was manufactured by several producers. The Agent Orange litigation dragged on for years, and included a variety of companies as defendants, including Uniroyal Chemical which my then firm represented. Dave S/V Good Fortune CS27 |
Captain Klutz?
It's a disgrace that a US President would act like this. Just like it was
a disgrace when Clinton lied about "having sex with that woman." I guess they should both be impeached. Clinton for lying about sex, and Bush for lying about the reason for going to war. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "OzOne" wrote in message ... Did you hear the one about the President... By Paul Colgan and wires March 26, 2004 US President George W. Bush made a joke about weapons of mass destruction not being found in Iraq at a late-night dinner for Amerian journalists yesterday. Mr Bush poked fun at himself and other members of his administration at the annual White House dinner for Radio and Television correspondents in Washington. Mr Bush used a slide show of White House photographs to entertain his dinner audience. Here, he said, he was pictured using trading cards to help him remember the names of world leaders / AFP Audio: Bush tries comedy In one, he showed a picture of him down on all fours rummaging under a desk in the Oval Office, saying "Those weapons of mass destruction have got to be somewhere." It was quickly followed by another similar picture. "Nope, no weapons over there," he said. In his four years on the national and international stage, Mr Bush has often been ridiculed for his tendency to muddle sentences and confuse words - and even invent new ones. He made this tendency the butt of another of his jokes, saying: "Fortunately my verbal phonation and electrocution have improved." There was a shot of Vice President Dick Cheney, a frequent butt of gentle Bush ribbing, holding his fingers a few inches apart. Mr Bush said: "Whenever you ask him a question, he replies: 'Let's see what my little friend says'." And there was Mr Bush again, in an odd contortion in front of his national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice. He said he was trying to explain to her the foreign policy of Democratic challenger John Kerry. His slide show segued into a sombre ending, showing a group of special forces troops in Afghanistan at the site where they buried a piece of the fallen World Trade Centre in commemoration of the dead from September 11. About 1500 guests attended the dinner. Asked at a news conference if the weapons issue was an appropriate matter for jokes, Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld declined to comment, saying he had not been at the dinner. The Bush administration launched a war a year ago against Iraq with its prime justification being its accusation that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction. Searches since the fall of former dictator Saddam Hussein so far have not turned up such arms. The chief US inspector, David Kay, said in January he thought it was unlikely any would be found. http://www.news.com.au/common/story_...55E401,00.html Funny man that George...not! Oz1...of the 3 twins. I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you. |
Captain Klutz?
Not after they've lied about just about everything else.
-- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Dave" wrote in message ... On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 12:31:44 -0500, DSK said: 1- to test it 2- because "the right people" stand to make a profit selling this medication to the Army 3- all the above. 4. because likely benefits in saving lives were thought to outweigh possible risks? I realize, of course, that you might find it difficult to accept the possibility that a Republican administration might act in good faith in making a judgment. Dave S/V Good Fortune CS27 |
Captain Klutz?
Did you defend the makers of that also?
-- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Dave" wrote in message ... On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 07:17:14 -0500, "katysails" said: Agent Orange does cause certain types of cancer and has been linked to other diseases. It's major component, dioxin, is a carcenoid. It's been a while but if I remember correctly dioxin was not a major component in the sense of being the active ingredient, but was simply one of the chemicals produced in the course of the manufacturing process--almost a contaminant. The major legal issue in the case, if I remember right, was whether, if the manufacturers produced precisely what the military asked them to produce in the product specifications, the manufacturer was responsible for the effects of the military's use of the product. Dave S/V Good Fortune CS27 |
Captain Klutz?
Dave wrote:
4. because likely benefits in saving lives were thought to outweigh possible risks? If that were the case, then why not rely on the anti-gas measures already in use, with equipment already tested, and the men already trained in it's use? I realize, of course, that you might find it difficult to accept the possibility that a Republican administration might act in good faith in making a judgment. Once in a while, sure. But in this case... no. Not even close. The whole thing stinks... and the cover-up doesn't help. DSK |
Captain Klutz?
Dave wrote:
I don't claim to be an expert in this area, but if you're talking about the kind of protective gear I've seen in pictures, I suspect there may be serious doubts about its effectiveness in a hot desert environment with people needing mobility, as compared to a method that doesn't require donning a lot of gear. Ever been in a hardhat suit and compared it to SCUBA or Jack Brown? Each has its place, but you don't choose hardhat if you have to move a lot. Better than that, I've used firefighting OBA gear. Sure it's a heavy, hot, cumbersome PITA but try doing the job without it. And it doesn't give you cancer. Now, if somebody were to say to me, "Here, buy these pills and give them to your firefighting (or HAZMAT) team and they will not need all that awful gear, plus they'll be ready on instant notice," then what would I say? Probably, "Can you sell me some beans to grow a giant beanstalk, too?" But then I am responsible & intelligent, and believe in accountability for my actions & decisions. Basically, the Army bought a fairy tale and the men who put their lives on the line for our country are paying for it. And you want to shrug it off. WTF, it's only a bunch of poor dumb ex-enlisted men, right? DSK |
Captain Klutz?
Dave wrote:
Is the "fairy tale" that the pills (or injections or whatever) were ineffective against gas? As far as anybody knows, they might... or might not... be. Guess what... conventional gas counter masures still work fine. And don't give anybody severe health problems later on. And you want to shrug it off. WTF, it's only a bunch of poor dumb ex-enlisted men, right? They didn't provide the protection to the officers in the field? AFAIK commissioned officers had the option of not taking them. DSK |
Captain Klutz?
"Dave" wrote in message ... On Sat, 27 Mar 2004 08:20:29 +1100, OzOne said: Not missing at all. The payouts were not for cancer. Maybe you should read about the studies Ah, so your point was not that dioxin didn't harm those exposed to it, but that the harm was something other than cancer. I'm confused. I thought that Oz said that Agent Orange didn't cause cancer. Sorry, that wasn't clear from the bald statement that dioxin doesn't cause cancer. Once again, I think that Oz said that "Agent Orange" didn't cause cancer. Regards Donal -- |
Captain Klutz?
On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 07:17:14 -0500, "katysails"
wrote this crap: http://www1.va.gov/opa/fact/docs/agentorangefs.htm Agent Orange does cause certain types of cancer and has been linked to other diseases. It's major component, dioxin, is a carcenoid. The major components are 2-4-D, (a common weed killer sold at all lawn and garden stores,) and 2-4-5-T, (a common herbicide sold at all farm stores.) Dioxin is a trace ingredient, that was included in the manufacturing process, and was removed after 1968. I'm Horvath and I approve of this post. |
Captain Klutz?
Dave wrote:
So you're saying there was no basis for believing they would work? Of *course* there is, silly. They were sold to the Army for that purpose. Now, would the U.S. Army buy something that didn't work? Anyway, if *you* want to throw away proven measures and be a guinea pig, go ahead. But it makes no sense at all (unless you're profiting by the sale of the new stuff) to do it on a large scale with our armed forces. The soldiers signed up to defend the country, not to be test subjects for new drugs. Or maybe this distinction is a bit blurry to you? DSK |
Captain Klutz?
Dave wrote:
From what I've been able to sift from various sources, conventional countermeasures work fine if the soldier under attack can manage to get on his protective gear in 9 seconds You know, in any realistic scenario, the service member in question will already be suited up for a long time before exposure. Do you really think the armed forces stand around with their thumbs testing the wind, and suddenly, as a shell explodes near them, says "Wow, we better get our anti-gas stuff ready!" In case you have to wonder about this, the answer is: NO In fact, a bigger problem is that by the time actual exposure begins, the filters are at the end of their life (and while you *can* change the filters in a Mark V holding your breath, it isn't recommended) and especially in a hot climate everybody is sick of having their clothing taped shut and is unbuttoning. Same goes for armored vehicles BTW. But hey, don't let the facts interfere with a rollicking rabid rant. Sorry I interrupted you, then. DSK |
Captain Klutz?
It sounds to me like the Republicans are so desperate to be
in charge that they have to lie through their teeth at every opportunity. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Dave" wrote in message ... On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 10:14:24 -0800, "Jonathan Ganz" said: It's a disgrace that a US President would act like this. Right. This is a serious job. Our President's aren't allowed to chide themselves publicly. Sounds to me like the Dems have to be really desperate to pretend they're exercised over a self-deprecating bit performed at an annual dinner where Presidents typically poke fun at themselves as well as the press. Apparently Jerry Nadler didn't even take the precaution of hiding behind the soldiers' families who were trotted out dutifully as front men for the Dems' spinmeisters. How 'bout it, Jerry, shall we have a decree that no laughing is allowed in Washington until every American is home from Iraq? Dave S/V Good Fortune CS27 |
Captain Klutz?
More war heros. Wonderful. Lawyers are just wonderful
people, especially corporate lawyers. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Dave" wrote in message ... On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 10:16:00 -0800, "Jonathan Ganz" said: Did you defend the makers of that also? Not personally, but a couple of my partners did. They took the position that if the guvmint told you it wanted chemicals conforming to a specific formulation, and you gave them just what they asked for, the financial consequences of the guvmint's decision should fall on the guvmint. Dave S/V Good Fortune CS27 |
Captain Klutz?
And which you should have avoided, given the results.
-- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Horvath" wrote in message ... On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 07:17:14 -0500, "katysails" wrote this crap: http://www1.va.gov/opa/fact/docs/agentorangefs.htm Agent Orange does cause certain types of cancer and has been linked to other diseases. It's major component, dioxin, is a carcenoid. The major components are 2-4-D, (a common weed killer sold at all lawn and garden stores,) and 2-4-5-T, (a common herbicide sold at all farm stores.) Dioxin is a trace ingredient, that was included in the manufacturing process, and was removed after 1968. I'm Horvath and I approve of this post. |
Captain Klutz?
On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 17:37:28 -0800, "Jonathan Ganz"
wrote this crap: It sounds to me like the Republicans are so desperate to be in charge that they have to lie through their teeth at every opportunity. That's what it sounds like to you. But do all idiots feel the same way? The Republicans are in charge, they don't have to be desperate. I'm Horvath and I approve of this post. |
Captain Klutz?
I don't know. Since you're the idiot, I'm sure you would
have a better idea. Republicans are currently in charge. Soon, they won't be. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Horvath" wrote in message ... On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 17:37:28 -0800, "Jonathan Ganz" wrote this crap: It sounds to me like the Republicans are so desperate to be in charge that they have to lie through their teeth at every opportunity. That's what it sounds like to you. But do all idiots feel the same way? The Republicans are in charge, they don't have to be desperate. I'm Horvath and I approve of this post. |
Captain Klutz?
On Sat, 27 Mar 2004 08:39:46 -0800, "Jonathan Ganz"
wrote this crap: I don't know. Since you're the idiot, I'm sure you would have a better idea. Republicans are currently in charge. Soon, they won't be. You think 12 years is "soon"? I'm Horvath and I approve of this post. |
Captain Klutz?
"Dave" wrote in message ... On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 17:57:42 -0500, DSK said: But hey, don't let the facts interfere with a rollicking rabid rant. I agree! Facts are in very short supply in this discussion. Fact! Iraq had NO WMD at the time of the invasion in 2003. Fact! Iraq had no connections at all with Al Qaeda. Fact! Bush, and his friends, have made enormous profits out of the war on Iraq. Would you like some more facts, Dave? Regards Donal -- |
Captain Klutz?
"Dave" wrote in message ... On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 23:04:04 -0000, "Donal" said: I'm confused. I thought that Oz said that Agent Orange didn't cause cancer. I'm not surprised that you're confused. Oz's statement was what the old English barristers used to call a "negative pregnant." Example: if I say "I didn't hit him with a lead pipe" do I mean I didn't hit him, or that I did hit him but I did it with a cast iron pipe instead of a lead pipe." I still think that he said that Agent Orange didn't cause cancer. What do you think? You may take this opportunity to demonstrate your cognitive powers to the group .... OTOH, you might decide to treat my question as the perfect platform from which you might display your total ignorance. So far, you seem to favour the "ignorant" option. Regards Donal -- |
Captain Klutz?
No more Reb. President come November. I have money on it.
-- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Horvath" wrote in message ... On Sat, 27 Mar 2004 08:39:46 -0800, "Jonathan Ganz" wrote this crap: I don't know. Since you're the idiot, I'm sure you would have a better idea. Republicans are currently in charge. Soon, they won't be. You think 12 years is "soon"? I'm Horvath and I approve of this post. |
Captain Klutz?
On Sat, 27 Mar 2004 23:55:09 -0000, "Donal"
wrote this crap: "Dave" wrote in message ... On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 17:57:42 -0500, DSK said: But hey, don't let the facts interfere with a rollicking rabid rant. I agree! Facts are in very short supply in this discussion. Fact! Iraq had NO WMD at the time of the invasion in 2003. That's not a fact. It's your opinion. Can you prove it? Fact! Iraq had no connections at all with Al Qaeda. That's also your opinion. Haven't you heard of Salmon Pak? Fact! Bush, and his friends, have made enormous profits out of the war on Iraq. That's your opinion. Would you like some more facts, Dave? That's a question. I'm Horvath and I approve of this post. |
Captain Klutz?
On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 00:04:37 -0000, "Donal"
wrote this crap: I still think that he said that Agent Orange didn't cause cancer. Agent Orange doesn't cause cancer. It's still sold today. I can go into a farm supply store and buy it. Farmers put it on the food you eat. I'm Horvath and I approve of this post. |
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