Best small Cruisers Under 10K
 

My list...while avoiding very, very old boats....

Bristol 27
Catalina 27
Cape Dory 25 (70s model)
C&C 25 (70s)
Pearson 25


RB

Best small Cruisers Under 10K
 

add in the small Westerly's, Cheoy Lee's and sometimes you can find a Contessa
for that price.

Bristol 27
Catalina 27
Cape Dory 25 (70s model)
C&C 25 (70s)
Pearson 25


RB

Best small Cruisers Under 10K
 

Many of the older Cals. Fantastic boats, very inexpensive.

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
My list...while avoiding very, very old boats....

Bristol 27
Catalina 27
Cape Dory 25 (70s model)
C&C 25 (70s)
Pearson 25


RB

Best small Cruisers Under 10K
 

Many of the older Cals. Fantastic boats, very inexpensive.


I always liked the older Cal 28. I'm currently selling a newer version, but I
liked the huge interior of the original. I had a friend who owned one and it
sailed quite well, even with tired sails.

RB

Best small Cruisers Under 10K
 

Bobsprit wrote:

My list...while avoiding very, very old boats....

Bristol 27

Shucks, what about a Bristol 30? Or a Tartan 27?


Catalina 27

Malarkey. Not on anybody's list of "best" unless you gotta go with a
crowd. They are widely available and better than some.


Cape Dory 25 (70s model)
C&C 25 (70s)

Why not a newer 27?


Pearson 25

Too small. The Cape Dory 25 is barely a weekender. And rather than
avoiding "very very old" what you want to avoid is "poorly maintained"
boats. It would be better to have a properly kept 35 year old boat
than a beat-up and neglected 5 year old one. Of course, that assume
knowledge about such things...

Here's a nice little heavy displacement English design
http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/0/8/65557108.htm

A Seafarer... smaller sistership to one a friend of ours has
http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/2/0/66440920.htm

To call this boat 31' is a bit deceptive, IIRC about 5' of that is the
clipper bow. But they are really cool boats and capable small
cruisers.
http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/1/8/62482218.htm

Islander 30... a Bob Perry design, sails well and properly built
http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/7/6/33415976.htm

My family had a protoype of one of these... now *this* is a great
boat... actually I'm bummed to see one pop up at this price...
http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/8/2/45636682.htm

Here's a boat I don't like all that much myself, but others have raved
about
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...oat_id=1189436

I was a little surprised to see a Sabre 28 pop up on the listings in
this price range. Also a Scampi 30 which is really a racing boat but
is certainly capable of being cruised.

Other boats that may pop up are the Morgan 30 (the CCA model, not the
OI) or for that matter, the Morgan 27 which I mentioned just the other
day. There are also Tanzers, Ericsons, Hughes, Rhodes, Paceship,
Dufour.... Any of these is likely to be better built and better
performing than a Catalina, Pearson, Cal, Columbia, or Hunter of
similar age & condition. IMHO the mass-produced boat are average, not
built for serious sailing (except for racing as one-designs), and
while many of them are nice boats, they are not "great."

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Best small Cruisers Under 10K
 

Catalina 27

Malarkey. Not on anybody's list of "best" unless you gotta go with a
crowd. They are widely available and better than some.

a c-27 is listed in Vigor's "20 Small Sailboats To Take You Anywhere".

Too small. The Cape Dory 25 is barely a weekender.

A CD-25 is much bigger than a Folkbote, a design considered one of the most
seaworthy boats out on the sea.

If the idea of "cruising" is crossing large bodies of water, a CD-25D (also
listed in Vigor's book) is a boat that works. On the other hand, if "cruising"
is motoring from one anchorage to another, then a Bucaneer 28 is a cruising
boat.

Best small Cruisers Under 10K
 

JAXAshby wrote:

a c-27 is listed in Vigor's "20 Small Sailboats To Take You Anywhere".

A Catalina 27 won't take one "anywhere." They are relatively nice boats, and
readily available... but that doesn't make them great.



Too small. The Cape Dory 25 is barely a weekender.

A CD-25 is much bigger than a Folkbote, a design considered one of the most
seaworthy boats out on the sea.

And torture to cruise in. I've been on a couple of overnights in Folkboats. Unless
you are either extremely small and/or extremely limber and also claustrophilic,
they are not great cruisers. OTOH if I met somebody who was shopping for a cruising
boat in this size/price range, who decided they really liked the Folkboat, I
wouldn't try to talk them out of it.... I'd just talk them into getting in & out of
the cabin a few times to try it out. They are fun boats to sail, which is a big
plus in my book.




If the idea of "cruising" is crossing large bodies of water, a CD-25D (also
listed in Vigor's book) is a boat that works.

Sure. But once again (why do you miss the point so much) that doesn't make it "The
Best." Of the boats I listed, all would be capable of making passages in skilled
hands. All would be better able to carry a load of stores, and considerably more
comfortable after any length of time aboard.


On the other hand, if "cruising"
is motoring from one anchorage to another, then a Bucaneer 28 is a cruising
boat.

So is a 36' tugboat! Now, which one is better?

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Best small Cruisers Under 10K
 

it is easy to see why doug likes Hunters. He defines a sailboat by how much
space is inside for the dollar spent.

Too small. The Cape Dory 25 is barely a weekender.

A CD-25 is much bigger than a Folkbote, a design considered one of the most
seaworthy boats out on the sea.

And torture to cruise in. I've been on a couple of overnights in Folkboats.
Unless
you are either extremely small and/or extremely limber and also
claustrophilic,
they are not great cruisers. OTOH if I met somebody who was shopping for a
cruising
boat in this size/price range, who decided they really liked the Folkboat, I
wouldn't try to talk them out of it.... I'd just talk them into getting in &
out of
the cabin a few times to try it out. They are fun boats to sail, which is a
big
plus in my book.




If the idea of "cruising" is crossing large bodies of water, a CD-25D (also
listed in Vigor's book) is a boat that works.

Sure. But once again (why do you miss the point so much) that doesn't make it
"The
Best." Of the boats I listed, all would be capable of making passages in
skilled
hands. All would be better able to carry a load of stores, and considerably
more
comfortable after any length of time aboard.


On the other hand, if "cruising"
is motoring from one anchorage to another, then a Bucaneer 28 is a cruising
boat.

So is a 36' tugboat! Now, which one is better?

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Best small Cruisers Under 10K
 

On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 16:14:30 -0500, DSK wrote:

Bobsprit wrote:

My list...while avoiding very, very old boats....

Bristol 27

Shucks, what about a Bristol 30? Or a Tartan 27?


Catalina 27

Malarkey. Not on anybody's list of "best" unless you gotta go with a
crowd. They are widely available and better than some.


Cape Dory 25 (70s model)
C&C 25 (70s)

Why not a newer 27?


Pearson 25

Too small. The Cape Dory 25 is barely a weekender. And rather than
avoiding "very very old" what you want to avoid is "poorly maintained"
boats. It would be better to have a properly kept 35 year old boat
than a beat-up and neglected 5 year old one. Of course, that assume
knowledge about such things...

Here's a nice little heavy displacement English design
http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/0/8/65557108.htm

A Seafarer... smaller sistership to one a friend of ours has
http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/2/0/66440920.htm

To call this boat 31' is a bit deceptive, IIRC about 5' of that is the
clipper bow. But they are really cool boats and capable small
cruisers.
http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/1/8/62482218.htm

Islander 30... a Bob Perry design, sails well and properly built
http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/7/6/33415976.htm

Bong! You are thinking of the Islander 28. I agree the 28 would be
worth looking at, though. Bob Finch designed the 30 and I enjoyed
that boat and there are quite a number of freshwater boats available.
I owned an Islander 30 for 9 years and had a lot of great times in
that boat, in spite of my limited math skills:)

My family had a protoype of one of these... now *this* is a great
boat... actually I'm bummed to see one pop up at this price...
http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/8/2/45636682.htm

Here's a boat I don't like all that much myself, but others have raved
about
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...oat_id=1189436

I was a little surprised to see a Sabre 28 pop up on the listings in
this price range. Also a Scampi 30 which is really a racing boat but
is certainly capable of being cruised.

There are a lot of great deals around on Sabre 28s. I know of one
that is about to come on the market in the Detroit area. 2 owner,
freshwater, recently repowered, in great shape for $23k. A LOT of
value for not much money.


Other boats that may pop up are the Morgan 30 (the CCA model, not the
OI) or for that matter, the Morgan 27 which I mentioned just the other
day. There are also Tanzers, Ericsons, Hughes, Rhodes, Paceship,
Dufour.... Any of these is likely to be better built and better
performing than a Catalina, Pearson, Cal, Columbia, or Hunter of
similar age & condition. IMHO the mass-produced boat are average, not
built for serious sailing (except for racing as one-designs), and
while many of them are nice boats, they are not "great."

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Best small Cruisers Under 10K
 

Islander 30... a Bob Perry design, sails well and properly built

felton wrote:

Bong! You are thinking of the Islander 28. I agree the 28 would be
worth looking at, though. Bob Finch designed the 30 and I enjoyed
that boat and there are quite a number of freshwater boats available.
I owned an Islander 30 for 9 years and had a lot of great times in
that boat, in spite of my limited math skills:)

Oops... sorry. It's hard to keep track of all the boats Bob Perry designed. I
apologize for the mistake, I certainly wasn't trying to take any credit away from
Bob Finch who also designed a lot of good boats... mostly racier ones like the
Mirages IIRC.

We have some friends who just finished up a fairly lengthy cruise on an Islander
30... and then went out and took second in class in a good size regatta. I'd
consider that credentials for being a 'great' boat!



I was a little surprised to see a Sabre 28 pop up on the listings in
this price range.

There are a lot of great deals around on Sabre 28s. I know of one
that is about to come on the market in the Detroit area. 2 owner,
freshwater, recently repowered, in great shape for $23k. A LOT of
value for not much money.

Yes, that's why I was surprised to see one for under $10K. I wonder if it's
trashed.

I just felt compelled to post a list of boats that would be quite good for
cruising, that one wouldn't necessarily be able to find 3 for sale within 5 miles
of ones house. That seems to be Boobsie's definition of 'great.' And Jax's
definition seems to be... well, I'm not sure but it seems to include being very
heavy, slow, and recommended by legions of salty-seeming wanna-bees.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Best small Cruisers Under 10K
 

And Jax's
definition seems to be... well, I'm not sure but it seems to include being
very
heavy, slow,

I define "cruising" as being on large bodies of water, not motoring from one
anchorage to the next as might interest an owner of a spacious bay sailor.

and recommended by legions of salty-seeming wanna-bees.

few people think of John Vigor as a "salty-seeming wanna-bee", even though
motor/anchor/baysailors often define as such anyone who pulls sails up and
leave sight of land for more than 60 minutes.

Best small Cruisers Under 10K
 

JAXAshby wrote:

I define "cruising" as being on large bodies of water,

Good grief, that could include Boobsie...

not motoring from one
anchorage to the next as might interest an owner of a spacious bay sailor.

Until I got a motorboat I very rarely 'motored from one anchorage to the next.'
However you seem to have an irrational grudge against roomy comfortable boats.
Just one of many irrational things about you, prob'ly.




and recommended by legions of salty-seeming wanna-bees.

few people think of John Vigor as a "salty-seeming wanna-bee", even though
motor/anchor/baysailors often define as such anyone who pulls sails up and
leave sight of land for more than 60 minutes.

Uh, no. I would define a "salty-seeming wanna-be" a person such as yourself, who
raves about the seaworthiness of boats he's never sailed, and has ambitions to
sail long distances in rough weather to just prove how manly they are, and
somehow never actually goes sailing.

John Vigor isn't a wanna-be. But a lot of people who never leave their slips
rave about the seaworthiness of some boats, including Cape Dories. Not the boats
fault... but that doesn't make it any better either. I happen to like Cape
Dories... but since I have really sailed them, I recognize that 1- they are
quite small inside, with limited stowage and 2- they are slow. They are nice
looking boats and quite solidly built. But most of the folks I know who have
really cruised them (including a few passages) have sold them to get bigger
boats... oftne the next size bigger Cape Dory.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Best small Cruisers Under 10K
 

most of the folks I know who have
really cruised them (including a few passages) have sold them to get bigger
boats... oftne the next size bigger Cape Dory.

this is true of most every boat owner who feels he has cruised his boat, except
Hunter owners. They give up the life or get a different boat. Hunter 19
owners never cruise at all.

btw dougies, wanna tell us how much more space a Hunter 19 has compared to a
Folkboat? How about passage miles difference between the two?

Best small Cruisers Under 10K
 

JAXAshby wrote:

btw dougies, wanna tell us how much more space a Hunter 19 has compared to a
Folkboat?

Actually, the H-19 does have more room. Probably about the same stowage.
Here's a test... go aboard a Folkboat and invite two couples (average sized
adults) to sit in the salon and have hot drinks. If you can lean back, relax, and
not have somebody elses elbows or knees jutting into you, then the room is at least
comparable.

However, I've been in a Folkboat and I don't see this happening...


How about passage miles difference between the two?

I calculated a few years back that we'd sailed 960 miles in the Hunter, and made a
rough figure that we'd trailered it 15,000. We've probably at least doubled that
since.

But of course, by your definition Hunter 19s never cruise. Which of course leaves
on wondering how you explain this

http://community.webshots.com/album/37908878jiBMxv

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Best small Cruisers Under 10K
 

there have it folks, another owner of a flyweight baysailor proclaiming to one
and all that space, space, space and more space defines a boat's capability to
sail.

btw dougies, wanna tell us how much more space a Hunter 19 has compared to
a
Folkboat?

Actually, the H-19 does have more room. Probably about the same stowage.
Here's a test... go aboard a Folkboat and invite two couples (average sized
adults) to sit in the salon and have hot drinks. If you can lean back, relax,
and
not have somebody elses elbows or knees jutting into you, then the room is at
least
comparable.

However, I've been in a Folkboat and I don't see this happening...


How about passage miles difference between the two?

I calculated a few years back that we'd sailed 960 miles in the Hunter, and
made a
rough figure that we'd trailered it 15,000. We've probably at least doubled
that
since.

But of course, by your definition Hunter 19s never cruise. Which of course
leaves
on wondering how you explain this

http://community.webshots.com/album/37908878jiBMxv

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Best small Cruisers Under 10K
 

JAXAshby wrote:

there have it folks, another owner of a flyweight baysailor proclaiming to one
and all that space, space, space and more space defines a boat's capability to
sail.

Please quote the post where I said this...

BTW we're still waiting for you to post a link to the chart showng rocks at Cape
Hattaras. And a Japanese sub shelling Seattle... and a lot of other things.

Are you posting all this malarkey to make up for accidentally being right about
something last week?

DSK

Best small Cruisers Under 10K
 

I calculated a few years back that we'd sailed 960 miles in the Hunter,

I made a little less than double that on a single OPB trip last summer. Close
to that in my own boat in Oct/Nov just loafing along enjoying the scenery and
stops.

FWIW dougie, a couple of years ago a 75 year old man crossed the North Atlantic
east to west in a Folkboat. Know anyone at all -- let alone one 75 years --
who has crossed the NA in a Hunter 19 in either direction?

Best small Cruisers Under 10K
 

I calculated a few years back that we'd sailed 960 miles in the Hunter,


JAXAshby wrote:
I made a little less than double that on a single OPB trip last summer. Close
to that in my own boat in Oct/Nov just loafing along enjoying the scenery and
stops.


And everybody believes that, Jax. Honestly they do. Even if it does bear some
resemblance to truth, how does that make the Hunter 19 worse?



FWIW dougie, a couple of years ago a 75 year old man crossed the North Atlantic
east to west in a Folkboat. Know anyone at all -- let alone one 75 years --
who has crossed the NA in a Hunter 19 in either direction?

Crossing oceans is not the only way to evaluate a cruising boat. When was the last
time a Folkboat... or your boat... spent a 3 day weekend cruising comfortably in
pleasant sailing waters 275 miles away from it's home slip? Or a weeks vacation
over 600 miles away? That's on top of thoroughly exploring home waters, of course.

If you include the characteristic of 'trailerability' then the Hunter 19 becomes a
great cruising boat, and the Folkboat drops off the list. And if your less than 75
years old and have to work for a living, the time constraints make that highly
desirable.

Wait, look at me trying to talk sense to Jax. Phooey.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Best small Cruisers Under 10K
 

how does that make the Hunter 19 worse?

you're right. it's comparing roller skates to sportscars.

When was the last
time ... or your boat... spent a 3 day weekend cruising comfortably
in pleasant sailing waters 275 miles away from it's home slip?

2003

Or a weeks vacation
over 600 miles away?

2003

my boat is nearly a thousand miles from where is was last spring. would be
farther but I had a business issue to take care of.

Best small Cruisers Under 10K
 

I almost bought a Hunter 19. Cute boat, sailed nice, top quality
construction. Only problem was my boyfriend wss too fat to enter the
cabin.

Suzy

Best small Cruisers Under 10K
 

We almost added a flat top cal 28 to the fleet. It just had too many
problems. Correctable, but time-consuming.

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
Many of the older Cals. Fantastic boats, very inexpensive.


I always liked the older Cal 28. I'm currently selling a newer version,
but I
liked the huge interior of the original. I had a friend who owned one and
it
sailed quite well, even with tired sails.

RB

Best small Cruisers Under 10K
 

Camper Nicolson I think 28, Grampian 30, Erickson 27, J24, Ranger 28, Edel I
think 885 is the designation though they are rare. There are more if we
would just get a bit obscure
"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
My list...while avoiding very, very old boats....

Bristol 27
Catalina 27
Cape Dory 25 (70s model)
C&C 25 (70s)
Pearson 25


RB

Best small Cruisers Under 10K
 

You will also have trouble finding a folkboat under $10,000 that isn't junk.
"DSK" wrote in message
...
JAXAshby wrote:

btw dougies, wanna tell us how much more space a Hunter 19 has compared
to a
Folkboat?

Actually, the H-19 does have more room. Probably about the same stowage.
Here's a test... go aboard a Folkboat and invite two couples (average
sized
adults) to sit in the salon and have hot drinks. If you can lean back,
relax, and
not have somebody elses elbows or knees jutting into you, then the room is
at least
comparable.

However, I've been in a Folkboat and I don't see this happening...


How about passage miles difference between the two?

I calculated a few years back that we'd sailed 960 miles in the Hunter,
and made a
rough figure that we'd trailered it 15,000. We've probably at least
doubled that
since.

But of course, by your definition Hunter 19s never cruise. Which of course
leaves
on wondering how you explain this

http://community.webshots.com/album/37908878jiBMxv

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Best small Cruisers Under 10K
 

When was the last
time ... or your boat... spent a 3 day weekend cruising comfortably
in pleasant sailing waters 275 miles away from it's home slip?

JAXAshby wrote:
2003

Yeah, sure. The only way your boat would go 275 miles, and back, in three days
is if it were on a flatbed truck.

But look at the bright side, that way you don't have to worry about those
rocks at Cape Hattaras, or finding the elusive Gulf Stream.

DSK

Best small Cruisers Under 10K
 

nah.

You will also have trouble finding a folkboat under $10,000 that isn't junk.

Best small Cruisers Under 10K
 

my boat is south of Cape Hatteras. This time last year it wasn't.

When was the last
time ... or your boat... spent a 3 day weekend cruising comfortably
in pleasant sailing waters 275 miles away from it's home slip?

JAXAshby wrote:
2003

Yeah, sure. The only way your boat would go 275 miles, and back, in three
days
is if it were on a flatbed truck.

But look at the bright side, that way you don't have to worry about those
rocks at Cape Hattaras, or finding the elusive Gulf Stream.

DSK

Best small Cruisers Under 10K
 

DSK wrote...
JAXAshby wrote:
....snip...
FWIW dougie, a couple of years ago a 75 year old man crossed the North Atlantic
east to west in a Folkboat. Know anyone at all -- let alone one 75 years --
who has crossed the NA in a Hunter 19 in either direction?

Crossing oceans is not the only way to evaluate a cruising boat. When was the last
time a Folkboat... or your boat... spent a 3 day weekend cruising comfortably in
pleasant sailing waters 275 miles away from it's home slip? Or a weeks vacation
over 600 miles away?
....snip...
Wait, look at me trying to talk sense to Jax. Phooey.

Doug,

This last point is, of course, your essential error. grin

But to address the issue, unlike Jax's imaginary friend who sails
upwind under bare poles and motors for months on a gallon of gas, I
have crossed the Atlantic on a Folkboat clone. I recommend against it.

Frank

Best small Cruisers Under 10K
 

JAXAshby wrote:
my boat is south of Cape Hatteras. This time last year it wasn't.

And that, in your opinion, constitutes a three day weekend? Maybe this
accounts for your spotty employment record.

DSK

Best small Cruisers Under 10K
 

Frank Maier wrote:
But to address the issue, unlike Jax's imaginary friend who sails
upwind under bare poles and motors for months on a gallon of gas, I
have crossed the Atlantic on a Folkboat clone. I recommend against it.

What would you say were the main plusses and minusses of the boat? What
rout did you take and what season was it? Sounds like a cool trip, and
obviously you survived ;)

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Best small Cruisers Under 10K
 

You forgot the Seidelmann 30 .

SV

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
My list...while avoiding very, very old boats....

Bristol 27
Catalina 27
Cape Dory 25 (70s model)
C&C 25 (70s)
Pearson 25


RB

Best small Cruisers Under 10K
 

Then why aren't you sailing? I thought you retired.

SV

"JAXAshby" wrote ...
my boat is south of Cape Hatteras.

Best small Cruisers Under 10K
 

You forgot the Seidelmann 30 .



No, everyone else did. Just as they did the Yugo and International Scout.


RB

Best small Cruisers Under 10K
 

You're still so easy to hook. What's wrong with a Scout? They're great
little trucks.

SV

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
You forgot the Seidelmann 30 .



No, everyone else did. Just as they did the Yugo and International Scout.


RB

Best small Cruisers Under 10K
 

dougie, I left the corporate rat race some time ago. I stayed around the last
few years only because they were paying me far more than I was worth. [grin]

This time last year it wasn't.

And that, in your opinion, constitutes a three day weekend? Maybe this
accounts for your spotty employment record.

DSK

Best small Cruisers Under 10K
 

I saw no post from any frank such guy. did I plonk him as one of the
posting.google.com screen names?

Frank Maier wrote:
But to address the issue, unlike Jax's imaginary friend who sails
upwind under bare poles and motors for months on a gallon of gas, I
have crossed the Atlantic on a Folkboat clone. I recommend against it.

What would you say were the main plusses and minusses of the boat? What
rout did you take and what season was it? Sounds like a cool trip, and
obviously you survived ;)

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Best small Cruisers Under 10K
 

What's wrong with a Scout?

The passenger side outside door handle was an optional extra (fact).

Best small Cruisers Under 10K
 

had a business issue to handle, which it seems is now done with as of last
week. Not sure if I will continue this spring or wait until fall to continue
south. lots of options.

Then why aren't you sailing? I thought you retired.

SV

"JAXAshby" wrote ...
my boat is south of Cape Hatteras.

Best small Cruisers Under 10K
 

What's wrong with a Scout? They're great
little trucks.


My uncle had a dealership that sold Scouts. It had the highest amount of QC
problems of any make that he sold. They would show up from the factory with
parts missing on a regular basis. They were horribly put together by the end of
the run.

"Get an International Scout! Anything less is JUST a car!"

RB

Best small Cruisers Under 10K
 

The body didn't just rust, it disolved. or maybe it was electrolysis.



On 04 Mar 2004 12:01:38 GMT, (Bobsprit) wrote:

What's wrong with a Scout? They're great
little trucks.


My uncle had a dealership that sold Scouts. It had the highest amount of QC
problems of any make that he sold. They would show up from the factory with
parts missing on a regular basis. They were horribly put together by the end of
the run.

"Get an International Scout! Anything less is JUST a car!"

RB

Best small Cruisers Under 10K
 

The body didn't just rust, it disolved. or maybe it was electrolysis.


Exactly. They were rusting when brand new!

RB