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Navigation Question
JAXAshby wrote: KP did require (as of at least 10 years ago) and may still require coursework to graduate that includes Lunar Distances. I find that hard to believe in any context other than as a historical side note. It is not required for a license. Please feel free to show the course which includes full instruction on Lunar Distance and requirements for a candidate for 3rd Mate to know this. I didn't learn of chronometers or Lunar Distances by googling. I knew of each before google came into existence. Ok, so before "Google" you used "Funknwaggle". Chronometers were damned expensive until mid 19th century and still had temperature compensation problems until well into the 20th century. These problems were eventually solved with the introduction of consumer electric watches. Lunars were still commonly used on commercial vessels (as opposed to military vessels) until about 150 years ago. The need for celestial nav at all started to go away by the early 1920's when radio navigation started to come online with commercial radio stations, which were required to give their call letters, the city of transmission and frequency every ten minutes. BG Where do you find this stuff? Mechanical chronometers will always have some degree of "compensation" problems, but it wasn't a "problem", once the "time tick" became readily available. In some areas, I don't doubt you can find individuals using "Lunars", into the last century as part of their celestial navigation. Celestial did not start to disappear in use until the advent of Sat Nav, which was in the 80's, not 20's. The use of RDF, Loran, Decca, etc., preceded this, but because of limited range, accuracy,reliability, etc., it did not really affect the GLOBAL use of celestial which predominated until the late eighties, early nineties. otn |
Navigation Question
On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 12:27:54 +1100, OzOne wrote:
On 24 Feb 2004 01:16:39 GMT, (JAXAshby) scribbled thusly: I was a professional motor mechanic starting the summer before 7th grade (my father owned the place). Yeah, OK Jocks...and what was the degree which allowed you to become a motor mechanic? Oz1...of the 3 twins. So what was the degree Jocks? You should be asking him if Sally Struther's name appears on his "diploma":) Have you ever noticed how jax always argues in the general but avoids the specific like the plague? Oz1...of the 3 twins. I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you. |
Navigation Question
I used to think that using lunars was common until radio time signals finally
eliminated issues about chronometer expense and accuracy around 1912. Then I came across a tutorial written about 1890 which complained that although the technique of lunar distances was still taught, they were considered too tedious by most seamen and had pretty much fallen into disuse. Jax is probably correct that it was little used around 1800. Even after Bowditch was published in 1802 there were very few seamen who could handle the math. I believe there is a minor resurgence now that most computer programs will handle the nasty math. "otnmbrd" wrote in message ink.net... JAXAshby wrote: otn, you just explained why celestial navigation is worthless. you also explained why celestial navigation as the term is used does not include Lunar Distances. btw, Lunar Distances were in common use on most ships until about the middle of the 19th century, not the beginning. Oops .... got my centuries wrong.(meant to say not living prior to the 20th century) Actually, Lunar distances were used to some degree, through the 19th century, but the need for them became academic, once the chronometer was readily available. As for celestial being worthless, I will admit, to someone such as yourself, who has never learned to use it and/or become proficient in it's use, it is useless, coupled with the fact, that as "galley boy", you'd never have the need. It is, however, included in "celestial navigation", since, once again, it involves sights of celestial bodies (or are you also unaware of the methods used to obtain the basic information used in lunar distances?). Go back to googling, Jax .... as always,the response to your responses quickly become exercises in talking to a brain dead Cocker Spaniel (My apologies to the Cocker Spaniel owners out there). otn |
Navigation Question
Doug,
The Navigator on the "Bounty" used moon time. That was a few years before Harrison's Time piece. It would be very, very interesting to hear the Jax's explanation of taking the moon's sighting and the calculations into Longitude, don't you think? Ole Thom |
Navigation Question
A few small points after some research - In the 1886 edition of Bowditch it
recommends using Lunar Distances on occasion to check the accuracy of the chronometer, but not as the primary method of determining Longitude. The original 1802 edition considers it superior method for determining longitude. One problem, however, is that it requires 3 simultaneous sights (distance between, and the altitudes of two bodies), which implies 4 people working together. It is possible for one person to do it, but the mathematics becomes much more tedious. "Jeff Morris" wrote in message ... I used to think that using lunars was common until radio time signals finally eliminated issues about chronometer expense and accuracy around 1912. Then I came across a tutorial written about 1890 which complained that although the technique of lunar distances was still taught, they were considered too tedious by most seamen and had pretty much fallen into disuse. Jax is probably correct that it was little used around 1800. Even after Bowditch was published in 1802 there were very few seamen who could handle the math. I believe there is a minor resurgence now that most computer programs will handle the nasty math. "otnmbrd" wrote in message ink.net... JAXAshby wrote: otn, you just explained why celestial navigation is worthless. you also explained why celestial navigation as the term is used does not include Lunar Distances. btw, Lunar Distances were in common use on most ships until about the middle of the 19th century, not the beginning. Oops .... got my centuries wrong.(meant to say not living prior to the 20th century) Actually, Lunar distances were used to some degree, through the 19th century, but the need for them became academic, once the chronometer was readily available. As for celestial being worthless, I will admit, to someone such as yourself, who has never learned to use it and/or become proficient in it's use, it is useless, coupled with the fact, that as "galley boy", you'd never have the need. It is, however, included in "celestial navigation", since, once again, it involves sights of celestial bodies (or are you also unaware of the methods used to obtain the basic information used in lunar distances?). Go back to googling, Jax .... as always,the response to your responses quickly become exercises in talking to a brain dead Cocker Spaniel (My apologies to the Cocker Spaniel owners out there). otn |
Navigation Question
Jeff Morris wrote: I used to think that using lunars was common until radio time signals finally eliminated issues about chronometer expense and accuracy around 1912. Then I came across a tutorial written about 1890 which complained that although the technique of lunar distances was still taught, they were considered too tedious by most seamen and had pretty much fallen into disuse. Jax is probably correct that it was little used around 1800. Even after Bowditch was published in 1802 there were very few seamen who could handle the math. I believe there is a minor resurgence now that most computer programs will handle the nasty math. G Think you just pulled an "otn". I think it was extensively used around 1800, but had fallen to a point of much less use by 1900. The advent of the radio as standard equipment on ships and the use of the "time tick", should have been it's final end. If it should have a minor resurgence today, it will only be as one that some "purist" will use, as long as his computer batteries last. It would take someone with an interest in research, but I think you'll find the governing factor regarding the decline of "Lunar's" was the common use of the chronometer, not the "time tick" ..... the time tick just made the chronometer more reliable. otn |
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BAILIFF(Spoken)
Mr. Flynn, his honor is here BILLY(Spoken) Thank you. Just a moment. You ready? ROXIE(Spoken) Oh Billy, I'm scared. BILLY(Spoken) Roxie, you got nothing to worry about. It's all a circus, kid. A three ring circus. These trials- the wholeworld- all show business. But kid, you're working with a star, the biggest! (Singing) Give 'em the old razzle dazzle Razzle Dazzle 'em Give 'em an act with lots of flash in it And the reaction will be passionate Give 'em the old hocus pocus Bead and feather 'em How can they see with sequins in their eyes? What if your hinges all are rusting? What if, in fact, you're just disgusting? Razzle dazzle 'em And they;ll never catch wise! Give 'em the old BILLY AND COMPANY Razzle dazzle 'em Give 'em a show that's so splendiferous BILLY Row after row will crow vociferous BILLY AND COMPANY Give 'em the old flim flam flummox Fool and fracture 'em BILLY How can they hear the truth above the roar? BILLY AND COMPANY Throw 'em a fake and a finagle They'll never know you're just a bagel, BILLY Razzle dazzle 'em And they'll beg you for more! BILLY AND COMPANY Give 'em the old razzle dazzle Razzle Dazzle 'em Back since the days of old Methuselah Everyone loves the big bambooz-a-ler Give 'em the old three ring circus Stun and stagger 'em When you're in trouble, go into your dance Though you are stiffer than a girder They let you get away with murder Razzle dazzle 'em And you've got a romance Give 'em the old Razzle Dazzle BILLY Razzle dazzle 'em Give 'em an act that's unassailable They'll wait a year 'till you're available! BILLY AND COMPANY Give 'em the old Double whammy BILLY Daze and dizzy'em Show 'em the first rate sorcerer you are BILLY AND COMPANY Long as you keep 'em way off balance How can they spot you got no talents? BILLY Razzle dazzle 'em COMPANY Razzle dazzle 'em BILLY Razzle dazzle 'em BILLY AND COMPANY And they'll make you a star! OzOne wrote in message ... On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 02:51:38 GMT, felton scribbled thusly: An evasive and inaccurate reply. I detect a pattern. Ahh the story of Jocks life "Give em the old razzle dazzle" Give 'Em The Old Razzle-Dazzle by Sarah E Edgson Any sexual fantasy involving such assorted paraphenalia as washing-up liquid, a blender, and a bichon frise just doesn't quite cut the mustard with me. http://www.write101.com/lust.htm He's learned from experts THEY DANCE, THEY SPIN: Ari lets it all hang out as he sums up his time with the Bush administration. "We just give 'em the old flim flam flummox," bellowed Rumsfeld, "Fool and fracture 'em. How can they hear the truth above the roar? Throw 'em a fake and a finagle. They'll never know you're just a bagel. Razzle dazzle 'em. And they'll beg you for more!" The Press Secretary was then queried about how it is that President Bush's popularity is still so high. Fleischer directed the press corps' eyes to a T.V. screen where President Bush spoke via satellite. "Back since the days of old Methuselah, everyone loves the big bambooz-a-ler. Give 'em the old three-ring circus. Stun and stagger 'em. When you're in trouble, go into your dance. Though you are stiffer than a girder, they let ya get away with a murder. Razzle dazzle 'em, and you've got a romance. Give 'em an act that's unassailable. They'll wait four years 'til you're available!" Asked about the steady erosion of civil liberties, Bush responded, "Just give 'em the old double whammy. Daze and dizzy 'em, show 'em the first rate sorcerer you are. Long as you keep 'em way off balance, how can they spot you got no talents? Razzle dazzle 'em and they'll make you a star!" http://www.lalatimes.com/Issue7/razzle.html Oz1...of the 3 twins. I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you. |
Navigation Question
"otnmbrd" wrote in message news:Hgz_b.5818
G Think you just pulled an "otn". I think it was extensively used around 1800, but had fallen to a point of much less use by 1900. You're right in the sense of "anyone who really needs to know the longitude, or correct time, uses Lunar distances." However, I suspect that the vast majority of mariners simply found their latitude, and went east or west from there. It was only 30 years earlier the Captain Cook used Lunar Distances and was hailed as a great surveyor for his accomplishments. His work was based on Maskelyne's lunar distance methods which were published in 1762. |
Navigation Question
Fort Schuyler, right on City Island, New York.
The New York State Merchant Marine Academy. A member of SUNY. You already knew that as you moored your boat there. Remember when you towed Nutsy home G That was when he had the Pearson Remember Nutsy :^) That was before he got his Sailfish. That was in the days when you had to use shackles on the Dock cleats for mooring lines Where was the Jax living then? That I can't seem to remember. Must be old age but you younger guys should remember. Remember you used to drive from Kew Gardens to Brooklyn to pick up one of your female crew. What was that on the Beltway, 30 miles round trip and another to drop her off. Those were the days of the Lesbians!! I guess Susy straighten that out Was it you or Jax that did the valve jobs on the cars in the back yard. It was one of you. I'll sign off now but we'll travel down memory lane so more later. Ole Thom |
Navigation Question
On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 22:12:14 -0500, "Jeff Morris"
wrote: BAILIFF(Spoken) Mr. Flynn, his honor is here snip Must be a regional thing. For some reason, virtually all of Jax's "replies" have me recalling the great musical "The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas". No one does the "sidestep" more than Jax... "Ooh I love to dance a little sidestep, now they see me now they don't- I've come and gone and, ooh I love to sweep around the wide step, cut a little swathe and lead the people on. Ooh I love to dance a little sidestep... And, ooh I love to sweep around the wide step... Cut a little swathe and lead the people on." For those who didn't see it, that was from the great scene where the Texas Governor, played by Charles Durning, dances around straightforward questions by "doing a little sidestep". Wow. Some things are timeless:) |
Navigation Question
All my KP trained deck officers can do celestial, it's still required for
professional sea officers, and the course work still includes lunar distances. What's the issue? Celestial isn't all that difficult. Most of the Bo's'ns and a good many of the experienced AB's can do celestial. Hell .. .Ole Thom does the latitudes with his knuckles. It only wants a little effort. M. "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... KP did require (as of at least 10 years ago) and may still require coursework to graduate that includes Lunar Distances. I didn't learn of chronometers or Lunar Distances by googling. I knew of each before google came into existence. Chronometers were damned expensive until mid 19th century and still had temperature compensation problems until well into the 20th century. These problems were eventually solved with the introduction of consumer electric watches. Lunars were still commonly used on commercial vessels (as opposed to military vessels) until about 150 years ago. The need for celestial nav at all started to go away by the early 1920's when radio navigation started to come online with commercial radio stations, which were required to give their call letters, the city of transmission and frequency every ten minutes. not one of you guys thought to check King's Point. There may be other places that teach Lunar Distances, but I have never heard of which. It is a skill obsolete since the middle of the 19th century when chronometers because cheap enough to become ubiquitous. Didn't check and won't check. If KP teaches "Lunar Distances", it will be as an exercise in history, not as a license necessity. BTW, it was not a question of chronometers becoming cheap enough .... it was a question of them becoming reliable enough to be used on a shipboard environment..... You still need to learn to do more in depth "Google" searches, before you try to write as if you are an expert. |
Navigation Question
you are right, over the knee. 18th century technology is still superior to
20th century technology, let alone that scummy 21st century technology. btw, where did you say you found a course in celestial nav that included lunars distances as well?? otn, you just explained why celestial navigation is worthless. you also explained why celestial navigation as the term is used does not include Lunar Distances. btw, Lunar Distances were in common use on most ships until about the middle of the 19th century, not the beginning. Oops .... got my centuries wrong.(meant to say not living prior to the 20th century) Actually, Lunar distances were used to some degree, through the 19th century, but the need for them became academic, once the chronometer was readily available. As for celestial being worthless, I will admit, to someone such as yourself, who has never learned to use it and/or become proficient in it's use, it is useless, coupled with the fact, that as "galley boy", you'd never have the need. It is, however, included in "celestial navigation", since, once again, it involves sights of celestial bodies (or are you also unaware of the methods used to obtain the basic information used in lunar distances?). Go back to googling, Jax .... as always,the response to your responses quickly become exercises in talking to a brain dead Cocker Spaniel (My apologies to the Cocker Spaniel owners out there). otn |
Navigation Question
Jax is probably correct that it was little used around 1800.
I understand what did lunars in was the more affordable chronometer by about the mid 19th century. Even after Bowditch was published in 1802 there were very few seamen who could handle the math. I understand the math is tedious, more particularly so before machines made multiplying and dividing easier (1890's, early 1900's). Commercial radio stations came on the air in 1921 (IIRC) and were required to give their call sign, frequency and city every ten minutes specificly to aid ships at sea in navigation. This radio required lasted (I believe) into the 1980's by which time it was more than thoroughly obsolete. |
Navigation Question
The point under
discussion was whether or not "Lunar Distances" is a form of Celestial Navigation. Your original claim was that it was not. I stand by that claim, as the term "Celestial Navigation" is used to today and as the craft is taught today. if you wanna dig up 200 year references to prove your point today, well you have merely also proven my statement that you are a sophist. |
Navigation Question
old fart, Fort Schuyler is not on City Island, and neither is the MMA, which is
not the same as King's Point, which is across the bay from the MMA. I did not and do not moor my boat at either MMA or KP, and have never anchored near either, though I have sailed by each many times. I have never towed any boat home, not even my dinghy. I donot shackle dock lines to anything. old fart, you are smashed. again. Fort Schuyler, right on City Island, New York. The New York State Merchant Marine Academy. A member of SUNY. You already knew that as you moored your boat there. Remember when you towed Nutsy home G That was when he had the Pearson Remember Nutsy :^) That was before he got his Sailfish. That was in the days when you had to use shackles on the Dock cleats for mooring lines Where was the Jax living then? That I can't seem to remember. Must be old age but you younger guys should remember. Remember you used to drive from Kew Gardens to Brooklyn to pick up one of your female crew. What was that on the Beltway, 30 miles round trip and another to drop her off. Those were the days of the Lesbians!! I guess Susy straighten that out Was it you or Jax that did the valve jobs on the cars in the back yard. It was one of you. I'll sign off now but we'll travel down memory lane so more later. Ole Thom |
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Navigation Question
otn, the info regarding KP and lunar distances came from a then recent graduate
of KP. way before google, in fact before Sputnik I used to read encylopedias out of curiosity. as far as radios and knowing about required call sign frequency, I built a genuine crystal set about the time the very first non-vacuum tube radios came on the market. the "time tick" did not come about, I believe, until about the same time as commercial radio stations started broadcasting, in the early 1920's. RDF can be problematic re accuracy when at great distances from the stations (plural) Loran and Decca needed closer proximity. GPS was developed by the US Navy to aid in military navigation at sea. celestial navigation is pretty useless most of the time, simply because of cloud cover much of the time. I find that hard to believe in any context other than as a historical side note. It is not required for a license. Please feel free to show the course which includes full instruction on Lunar Distance and requirements for a candidate for 3rd Mate to know this. I didn't learn of chronometers or Lunar Distances by googling. I knew of each before google came into existence. Ok, so before "Google" you used "Funknwaggle". Chronometers were damned expensive until mid 19th century and still had temperature compensation problems until well into the 20th century. These problems were eventually solved with the introduction of consumer electric watches. Lunars were still commonly used on commercial vessels (as opposed to military vessels) until about 150 years ago. The need for celestial nav at all started to go away by the early 1920's when radio navigation started to come online with commercial radio stations, which were required to give their call letters, the city of transmission and frequency every ten minutes. BG Where do you find this stuff? Mechanical chronometers will always have some degree of "compensation" problems, but it wasn't a "problem", once the "time tick" became readily available. In some areas, I don't doubt you can find individuals using "Lunars", into the last century as part of their celestial navigation. Celestial did not start to disappear in use until the advent of Sat Nav, which was in the 80's, not 20's. The use of RDF, Loran, Decca, etc., preceded this, but because of limited range, accuracy,reliability, etc., it did not really affect the GLOBAL use of celestial which predominated until the late eighties, early nineties. otn |
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TWO? sciences,,,should I be impressed?
if you wannabe |
Navigation Question
So, do you think the radio stations also did that during WWII? I'd hate to
think that there were German subs getting lost at Coney Island! "JAXAshby" wrote in message ... Commercial radio stations came on the air in 1921 (IIRC) and were required to give their call sign, frequency and city every ten minutes specificly to aid ships at sea in navigation. This radio required lasted (I believe) into the 1980's by which time it was more than thoroughly obsolete. |
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Jax,
Shut the Hell up!! I'm talking to Nutsy ABOUT YOU. I am not talking to you Ole Thom |
Navigation Question
To clarify .... You could very well be correct in that the average
sailor just used Latitudes and East/West, but I wouldn't be surprised to find that many who traveled the longer ocean routes where there was a great change in latitude and longitude during their transit would have employed this ..... again, it would need some historical research to confirm or deny. My intent was to convey the overall time frame in the evolution of celestial as we know it today. otn Jeff Morris wrote: "otnmbrd" wrote in message news:Hgz_b.5818 G Think you just pulled an "otn". I think it was extensively used around 1800, but had fallen to a point of much less use by 1900. You're right in the sense of "anyone who really needs to know the longitude, or correct time, uses Lunar distances." However, I suspect that the vast majority of mariners simply found their latitude, and went east or west from there. It was only 30 years earlier the Captain Cook used Lunar Distances and was hailed as a great surveyor for his accomplishments. His work was based on Maskelyne's lunar distance methods which were published in 1762. |
Navigation Question
JAXAshby wrote: Commercial radio stations came on the air in 1921 (IIRC) and were required to give their call sign, frequency and city every ten minutes specificly to aid ships at sea in navigation. This radio required lasted (I believe) into the 1980's by which time it was more than thoroughly obsolete. Are you talking about radio stations such as ABC in New York, or Marine Radio Beacons? Marine Radio Beacons are a different animal, though agreeably obsolete. However, they are still (RDF) to be found on ships. otn |
Navigation Question
JAXAshby wrote: otn, the info regarding KP and lunar distances came from a then recent graduate of KP. Interesting. KP (USMMA), may include it as a historical side note, but to the best of my knowledge neither MMA's (Maine & Mass) teach it at all, except in passing, not as a requirement, since it is not part of the knowledge required for a license.... if taught, it would fall under "Celestial", within the overall course on Navigation. way before google, in fact before Sputnik I used to read encylopedias out of curiosity. as far as radios and knowing about required call sign frequency, I built a genuine crystal set about the time the very first non-vacuum tube radios came on the market. the "time tick" did not come about, I believe, until about the same time as commercial radio stations started broadcasting, in the early 1920's. I don't understand what this has to do with anything as the time tick was different from the RDF stations..... which in the Maritime world are different from "commercial" stations. RDF can be problematic re accuracy when at great distances from the stations (plural) Loran and Decca needed closer proximity. GPS was developed by the US Navy to aid in military navigation at sea. Normally, RDF used by ships was employed by ships, closer to shore (not always). All shore based radio nav aids have problems with range ... Decca was always considered a short range system, Loran had greater range and (I believe) Omega, the greatest. I've used Loran as far South, as the Panama Canal (not always available). The first commercial use of the Military's Satellites was called Sat Nav. Positions were accurate, but not always available and sometimes the wait for one required that you still maintain other methods, such as celestial for navigation (From this fact, many of us realized how accurate we could get with celestial .... we also found some errors). celestial navigation is pretty useless most of the time, simply because of cloud cover much of the time. G See above. Every time I read that statement, I know I'm talking to someone with limited experience with celestial, either in area or practice. otn |
Navigation Question
Thom Stewart wrote:
Doug, The Navigator on the "Bounty" used moon time. That was a few years before Harrison's Time piece. It would be very, very interesting to hear the Jax's explanation of taking the moon's sighting and the calculations into Longitude, don't you think? I dunno about interesting, it might be funny. Jax's claim to expertise at celestial navigation seems to be based on the fact that he's a lunatic. DSK |
Navigation Question
the time tick was not practical until radio stations are capable of carrying
it. In the original days, (US) radio stations could be up to 500,000 watts in power. Such signals could at night carry well more than 1,000 miles. I seem to recall that some Mexican stations were up to 1,000,000 watts. Commercial radio stations were often used as RDF points (the call sign, frequency, city identifier every ten minutes was specificly required because of its capability for ships at sea), though (in the US) CG RDF stations were also set up. At one point the FAA also maintained RDF stations across the country for aircraft navigation. Some sailors continued to has RDF gear aboard into the 1990's because such equipment could catch shore radio stations at night and the crew could listen to music. I don't understand what this has to do with anything as the time tick was different from the RDF stations..... which in the Maritime world are different from "commercial" stations. RDF can be problematic re accuracy when at great distances from the stations (plural) Loran and Decca needed closer proximity. GPS was developed by the US Navy to aid in military navigation at sea. Normally, RDF used by ships was employed by ships, closer to shore (not always). All shore based radio nav aids have problems with range ... Decca was always considered a short range system, Loran had greater range and (I believe) Omega, the greatest. I've used Loran as far South, as the Panama Canal (not always available). The first commercial use of the Military's Satellites was called Sat Nav. Positions were accurate, but not always available and sometimes the wait for one required that you still maintain other methods, such as celestial for navigation (From this fact, many of us realized how accurate we could get with celestial .... we also found some errors). celestial navigation is pretty useless most of the time, simply because of cloud cover much of the time. G See above. Every time I read that statement, I know I'm talking to someone with limited experience with celestial, either in area or practice. otn |
Navigation Question
So, do you think the radio stations also did that during WWII? I'd hate to
think that there were German subs getting lost at Coney Island! I don't know if radio regs changed in WWII, but if they did if probably would not have been because of German submarines. Radio waves don't penetrate water more than about two inches. I do know at least one German sub was sunk in the Potomac and one or many more in Long Island Sound. I don't know that any German subs fired on the US mainland. Do know that at least one Japanese sub fired on Seattle, with little damage. |
Navigation Question
I was writing of your plain vanilla AM radio stations, such as KRLA, KSTP,
WCCO, WABC, etc. Marine RDF stations were stations operated (by I believe in the US by the CG and FAA) specifically for ships at sea and later aircraft. Best of my knowledge marine RDF stations operated in th same frequency range as commercial AM radio stations. Are you talking about radio stations such as ABC in New York, or Marine Radio Beacons? Marine Radio Beacons are a different animal, though agreeably obsolete. However, they are still (RDF) to be found on ships. otn |
Navigation Question
felton, show a celestial nav course offered to the recreational sailor anywhere
in the country that includes Lunars. Hell, until three days ago *you* had never even heard the term Lunar Distances, and now you are claiming to be an expert. |
Navigation Question... Jax's expertise on naval history
JAXAshby wrote:
.... I do know at least one German sub was sunk in the Potomac and one or many more in Long Island Sound. I don't know that any German subs fired on the US mainland. Do know that at least one Japanese sub fired on Seattle, with little damage. Hey Peter, is *this* funny enough that you'd un-killfile Jax? Jax you owe me some workmen's comp, two people here in the shop just fell on the floor and busted their guts laughing. DSK |
Navigation Question... Jax's expertise on naval history
laughing? At what? IIRC, the German sub in the Potomac is still shown on NOAA
charts as an obstruction, while the brave, brace CG brags about their sole kill -- a German submarine in LIS -- in WWII to prove how couregeous they were. Certainly, the submarine firing on Seattle is well known. So, dougies, are the guys on the shop floor you mention on drugs or were they hired because they are even dumber than you? Jax you owe me some workmen's comp, two people here in the shop just fell on the floor and busted their guts laughing. DSK |
Lifelines Part II
wrote in message ... Thom, Your senile dementia is being accelerated by all that alcohol. I'm not Nutsy or Jax. Please get yourself some help. Really. You *do* sound very like Bob. You are offensive, stupid and childish. Why would any sane person want to portray himself in this light? Perhaps you are just not very original?? Regards Donal -- |
Navigation Question... Jax's expertise on naval history
JAXAshby wrote:
laughing? At what? At you, Jax. Yes, we are laughing AT you, not with you. .... IIRC, the German sub in the Potomac is still shown on NOAA charts as an obstruction, I'm sure there are many charted obstructions in the Potomac River, but I'm also sure that none of them are sunk German subs. ...while the brave, brace CG brags about their sole kill -- a German submarine in LIS -- in WWII to prove how couregeous they were. This is BS because the USCG sank a sub near Cape Lookout NC. German subs sank a bunch of ships off the NC coast. Unlike LIS there was a lot of commercial shipping at that point. What would a German sub do in LIS, sink a ferry? Or maybe Pearson 30? BTW do you honestly think that insulting the Coast Guard makes your claims more believable? Certainly, the submarine firing on Seattle is well known. In that case, you should be easily able to find a reference to it. So, dougies, are the guys on the shop floor you mention on drugs or were they hired because they are even dumber than you? Well, they darn sure would not have been hired if they were stupid enough to believe your nonsense. Another classic Jax moment. |
Navigation Question
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Navigation Question... Jax's expertise on naval history
dougies, you are beginning to catch old thom's alcohol vapors and you clearly
showing the progressing dementia coming from it. geesh, dude. join AA or something. .... IIRC, the German sub in the Potomac is still shown on NOAA charts as an obstruction, I'm sure there are many charted obstructions in the Potomac River, but I'm also sure that none of them are sunk German subs. ...while the brave, brace CG brags about their sole kill -- a German submarine in LIS -- in WWII to prove how couregeous they were. This is BS because the USCG sank a sub near Cape Lookout NC. German subs sank a bunch of ships off the NC coast. Unlike LIS there was a lot of commercial shipping at that point. What would a German sub do in LIS, sink a ferry? Or maybe Pearson 30? BTW do you honestly think that insulting the Coast Guard makes your claims more believable? Certainly, the submarine firing on Seattle is well known. In that case, you should be easily able to find a reference to it. So, dougies, are the guys on the shop floor you mention on drugs or were they hired because they are even dumber than you? Well, they darn sure would not have been hired if they were stupid enough to believe your nonsense. Another classic Jax moment. |
Navigation Question
it is rather sad that you are so "afflicted" as Bob Perry aptly
described you. well, felton, and just how many times has Bob Perry asked *you* for technical advice, eh? felton, you are too dumb to hold a meaningful discussion with. You sound like someone who will go catatonic and hide in corner when the waves start to approach white caps and the winds approach 12 knots. |
Navigation Question... Jax's expertise on naval history
JAXAshby wrote:
dougies, you are beginning to catch old thom's alcohol vapors and you clearly showing the progressing dementia coming from it. geesh, dude. join AA or something. Jax, your statements on German and Japanese submarines are ludicrous. Now you have nothing but insults to fall back on, and you can't even do that very well. Maybe you saw U-boats in Long Island Sound when you were out searching for the Gulf Stream? Oh well, if you can't have a real life, you can at least have entertaining fantasies! DSK |
Lifelines Part II
Nutsy, & Bill and Susy,
After that posting about your marriage and problems with the 'Net, which by the way was excellent. You describe Susy's and her family's dicuss with their discovery of your past. It is what the group has been saying for years. If true and not like the Catalina Purchase, then why in the hell is Susy now POSTING; It may be true, for all we know, Your story sounds quite queer. We hate like hell to doubt your word, But it sounds like like Bull **** here!! Ole Thom |
Navigation Question
Although I can't speak for the years prior to the 1960's, no self
respecting navigator I knew after that time would use any AM radio station for navigation, unless all else failed. Two major problems .... the signal could be "bent" traveling over land, then water (hence the reason most marine RDF stations were at lighthouses, or close to the shore) and the locations of the radio towers for AM stations were not always on the charts in use or denoted (I don't have a 117 here to see if some may have been listed). Also, I'm not sure, but I think the calibration error on the particular Shipboard RDF, was done for the relatively narrow band used by RDF stations (not necessarily true throughout the history of RDF). otn JAXAshby wrote: I was writing of your plain vanilla AM radio stations, such as KRLA, KSTP, WCCO, WABC, etc. Marine RDF stations were stations operated (by I believe in the US by the CG and FAA) specifically for ships at sea and later aircraft. Best of my knowledge marine RDF stations operated in th same frequency range as commercial AM radio stations. Are you talking about radio stations such as ABC in New York, or Marine Radio Beacons? Marine Radio Beacons are a different animal, though agreeably obsolete. However, they are still (RDF) to be found on ships. otn |
Navigation Question
JAXAshby wrote: So, do you think the radio stations also did that during WWII? I'd hate to think that there were German subs getting lost at Coney Island! I don't know if radio regs changed in WWII, but if they did if probably would not have been because of German submarines. Radio waves don't penetrate water more than about two inches. I do know at least one German sub was sunk in the Potomac and one or many more in Long Island Sound. I don't know that any German subs fired on the US mainland. Do know that at least one Japanese sub fired on Seattle, with little damage. ROFLMAO Where do you find this stuff? otn |
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