Yes it is an appropriate answer. I had several friends who died in VN.
So what. They're dead, I think of them often, she stood up for what she
believed in. I didn't agree with it at the time, but that's life, and that's
what makes this an free and open society. I'm certain that LBJ and
his generals had a lot more to do with death and destruction than Jane
and Tom.

Just because someone named spiker posts a message, doesn't mean
I have to be believe him or be sympathetic to what he posts.

"Dave" wrote in message
...
That has to qualify as the most callous posting to the group in some time.

Though I served during wartime I wasn't in a war zone and never had the
experience of watching compatriots killed by enemy action. But I had an
uncle in WWII who did, and who suffered recurring nightmares about it his
entire life. Regardless of one's political views, his heart must go out to
those who have lived through such an experience. "Get over it" isn't an
answer.


On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 08:17:42 -0800, "Jonathan Ganz"
said:

The war is over. Get over it.

"Spiker" wrote in message
...
A fox she was, we thought she was an American and our friend.
That got two of us killed and two others "disappeared" when we hoped
she
would tell our families that we were alive.

Three wives and four children were directly effected by Hanoi Jane's
collaboration.

Years just don't soften some things.

Dave
S/V Good Fortune
CS27

Jonathan,
You are obviously not a student of the period. You would know the
incident referred to is true (if the Hanoi press and our flyers are to
be believed). She had long been vocal, but the prisoners did not know
it as they were denied rights afforded the Geneva Conventions. So when
they were paraded in front of her and responded that they were well
treated and much regretted the actions of the country (this of course
had nothing to do with the man standing behind them with a cattle prod -
the prod is visible in one of Jane's publicity pictures). They had
secreted a slip of paper with the SSN of all the captives so the
families could be informed. It was passed to HJ during a handshake. It
was hoped she would take it back to the Red Cross or any other agency.
Instead - As soon as she was through with the photo-op, she handed the
slip to th lead guard. The beatings that followed were merciless.
You can forget what ever you want to.
Matt Colie

Jonathan Ganz wrote:
Yes it is an appropriate answer. I had several friends who died in VN.
So what. They're dead, I think of them often, she stood up for what she
believed in. I didn't agree with it at the time, but that's life, and that's
what makes this an free and open society. I'm certain that LBJ and
his generals had a lot more to do with death and destruction than Jane
and Tom.

Just because someone named spiker posts a message, doesn't mean
I have to be believe him or be sympathetic to what he posts.

"Dave" wrote in message
...

That has to qualify as the most callous posting to the group in some time.

Though I served during wartime I wasn't in a war zone and never had the
experience of watching compatriots killed by enemy action. But I had an
uncle in WWII who did, and who suffered recurring nightmares about it his
entire life. Regardless of one's political views, his heart must go out to
those who have lived through such an experience. "Get over it" isn't an
answer.


On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 08:17:42 -0800, "Jonathan Ganz"
said:


The war is over. Get over it.

"Spiker" wrote in message
...

A fox she was, we thought she was an American and our friend.
That got two of us killed and two others "disappeared" when we hoped

she

would tell our families that we were alive.

Three wives and four children were directly effected by Hanoi Jane's
collaboration.

Years just don't soften some things.

Dave
S/V Good Fortune
CS27

So what. I submit you don't know all the facts either. It's easy
to rehash what HJ did or didn't do, her motivation, and the
results. How do you know, for example, that the beatings
were a direct result of the SSNs? You don't and you can't.
I stand by my comments.

"Matt Colie" wrote in message
...
Jonathan,
You are obviously not a student of the period. You would know the
incident referred to is true (if the Hanoi press and our flyers are to
be believed). She had long been vocal, but the prisoners did not know
it as they were denied rights afforded the Geneva Conventions. So when
they were paraded in front of her and responded that they were well
treated and much regretted the actions of the country (this of course
had nothing to do with the man standing behind them with a cattle prod -
the prod is visible in one of Jane's publicity pictures). They had
secreted a slip of paper with the SSN of all the captives so the
families could be informed. It was passed to HJ during a handshake. It
was hoped she would take it back to the Red Cross or any other agency.
Instead - As soon as she was through with the photo-op, she handed the
slip to th lead guard. The beatings that followed were merciless.
You can forget what ever you want to.
Matt Colie

Well, well...Gayanzy is taking yet another beating!!!

Bwahahahahaha! Maybe his girlfriend, Porta Scotty will help him...?


RB

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
Well, well...Gayanzy is taking yet another beating!!!

Bwahahahahaha! Maybe his girlfriend, Porta Scotty will help him...?


RB

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ...
So what. I submit you don't know all the facts either. It's easy
to rehash what HJ did or didn't do, her motivation, and the
results. How do you know, for example, that the beatings
were a direct result of the SSNs? You don't and you can't.
I stand by my comments.


You stupid **** Johnathan,

There are few things I have strong visceral reactions to, but Jane
Fonda's participation in what I believe to be blatant treason, is one
of them. Part of my conviction comes from exposure to those who
suffered her attentions.

In 1978, the Commandant of the USAF Survival School, a colonel, was a
former POW in Ho Lo Prison -- the Hanoi Hilton. Dragged from a
stinking cesspit of a cell, cleaned, fed, and dressed in clean PJs, he
was ordered to describe for a visiting American 'Peace Activist' the
'lenient and humane treatment' he'd received. He spat at Ms. Fonda,
was clubbed, and dragged away. During the subsequent beating, he fell
forward upon the camp Commandant's feet, accidentally pulling the
man's shoe off -- which sent that officer berserk.

In '78, the AF colonel still suffered from double vision --
permanently grounding him -- from the Vietnamese officer's frenzied
application of a wooden baton.

From 1983-85, Col. Larry Carrigan was 347FW/DO (F-4Es). He'd spent 6
[product] years in the Hilton -- the first three of which he was
listed as MIA. His wife lived on faith that he was still alive. His
group, too, got the cleaned/fed/clothed routine in preparation for a
'peace delegation' visit.

They, however, had time and devised a plan to get word to the world
that they still survived. Each man secreted a tiny piece of paper,
with his Social Security number on it, in the palm of his hand. When
paraded before Ms. Fonda and a cameraman, she walked the line, shaking
each man's hand and asking little encouraging snippets like, 'Aren't
you sorry you bombed babies?' and, 'Are you grateful for the humane
treatment from your benevolent captors?

Believing this HAD to be an act, they each palmed her their sliver of
paper. She took them all without missing a beat. At the end of the
line and once the camera stopped rolling, to the shocked disbelief of
the POWs, she turned to the officer in charge ... and handed him the
little pile of notes.

Three men died from the subsequent beatings. Col. Carrigan was almost
number four.

For years after their release, a group of determined former POWs,
including Col. Carrigan, tried to bring Ms. Fonda and others up on
charges of treason. I don't know that they used it, but the charge of
'Negligent Homicide due to Depraved Indifference' would also seem
appropriate. Her obvious 'granting of aid and comfort to the enemy'
alone should've been sufficient for the treason count. However, to
date, Jane Fonda has never been formally charged with anything and
continues to enjoy the privileged life of the rich and famous.

I, personally, think that this is shame on us, the American Citizenry.

Part of our shortfall is ignorance: Most don't know such actions ever
took place.

The only addition I might add to these sentiments is to remember the
satisfaction of relieving myself into the urinal at some air base or
another where 'zaps' of Hanoi Jane's face had been applied.

And there is this account:

"I was a civilian economic development advisor in Vietnam, and was
captured by the North Vietnamese communists in South Vietnam in 1968,
and held for over 5 years. I spent 27 months in solitary confinement,
one year in a cage in Cambodia, and one year in a 'black box' in
Hanoi. My North Vietnamese captors deliberately poisoned and murdered
a female missionary, a nurse in a leprosarium in Ban Me Thuot, South
Vietnam, whom I later buried in the jungle near the Cambodian border.

"At one time, I was weighing approximately 90 lb. [my normal weight is
170 lb.). We were Jane Fonda's 'war criminals.'"

"When Jane Fonda was in Hanoi, I was asked by the camp communist
political officer if I would be willing to meet with her. I said yes,
for I would like to tell her about the real treatment we POWs were
receiving, which was far different from the treatment purported by the
North Vietnamese, and parroted by Jane Fonda, as 'humane and lenient.'
Because of this, I spent three days on a rocky floor on my knees with
outstretched arms with a piece of steel re-bar placed on my hands, and
beaten with a bamboo cane every time my arms dipped.

"Jane Fonda had the audacity to say that the POWs were lying about our
torture and treatment.

"I had the opportunity to meet with Jane Fonda for a couple of hours
after I was released. I asked her if she would be willing to debate me
on TV. She did not answer me, her husband (at the time), Tom Hayden,
answered for her. She was mind controlled by her husband. This does
not exemplify someone who should be honored by '100 Years of Great
Women.'"

"After I was released, I was asked what I thought of Jane Fonda and
the anti-war movement. I said that I held Joan Baez's husband in very
high regard, for he thought the war was wrong, burned his draft card
and went to prison in protest. If the other anti-war protesters took
this same route, it would have brought our judicial system to a halt
and ended the war much earlier, and there wouldn't be as many on that
somber black granite wall called the Vietnam Memorial. This is
democracy. This is the American way.

"Jane Fonda, on the other hand, chose to be a traitor, and went to
Hanoi, wore their uniform, propagandized for the communists, and urged
American soldiers to desert. As we were being tortured, and some of
the POWs murdered, she called us liars. After her heroes -- the North
Vietnamese communists -- took over South Vietnam, they systematically
murdered 80,000 South Vietnamese political prisoners. May their souls
rest on her head forever."

In the words of Paul Harvey, America, "now you know the rest of the
story."



Whether or not you agreed with the war in Vietnam, whether you're a
Vietnam vet or a former member of the protest movement, or whether
you're too old or too young to have been there, the behavior of Jane
Fonda towards our own military men is reprehensible beyond belief. All
I ask is that you think about these accounts the next time you see
her. Let your conscience guide your actions from there.

Capt. American


"Matt Colie" wrote in message
...
Jonathan,
You are obviously not a student of the period. You would know the
incident referred to is true (if the Hanoi press and our flyers are to
be believed). She had long been vocal, but the prisoners did not know
it as they were denied rights afforded the Geneva Conventions. So when
they were paraded in front of her and responded that they were well
treated and much regretted the actions of the country (this of course
had nothing to do with the man standing behind them with a cattle prod -
the prod is visible in one of Jane's publicity pictures). They had
secreted a slip of paper with the SSN of all the captives so the
families could be informed. It was passed to HJ during a handshake. It
was hoped she would take it back to the Red Cross or any other agency.
Instead - As soon as she was through with the photo-op, she handed the
slip to th lead guard. The beatings that followed were merciless.
You can forget what ever you want to.
Matt Colie

Well, I'm certainly glad you don't resort to name calling, you
****ing moron.

"Capt.American" wrote in message
m...
You stupid **** Johnathan,

So what. Who cares what you think???

There are few things I have strong visceral reactions to, but Jane
Fonda's participation in what I believe to be blatant treason, is one
of them. Part of my conviction comes from exposure to those who
suffered her attentions.

In 1978,

bs historical diatribe deleted

This is part of an urban myth. See
http://urbanlegends.about.com/librar.../aa110399a.htm

You really should try to separate fact from fiction before you repost
lies about living people. e.g:


# Claim: A POW spit at Fonda, for which he was brutally beaten.

# Status: FALSE.

This story is attributed in the email to former Air Force pilot Jerry
Driscoll, who says it's false and did not originate from him. I wasn't
able to speak with him directly, but Mike McGrath and Paul Galanti,
fellow officers of the Nam-POWs organization to which Driscoll belongs,
told me he unequivocally disavows the story.

[UPDATE: After this commentary was written I received personal
confirmation from Jerry Driscoll that the story is indeed bogus – as he
put it, "the product of a very vivid imagination."]


# Claim: Fonda betrayed POWs by turning over slips of paper they gave
her to their captors. POWs were beaten and died as a result.

# Status: FALSE.

"It's a figment of somebody's imagination," says Ret. Col. Larry
Carrigan, whom I reached by phone at his home in Arizona. Carrigan, who
was shot down over North Vietnam in 1967, says he has no idea why this
story was attributed to him. "I never met Jane Fonda," he told me. It
goes without saying he never handed her a secret message.

He said he did see Jane Fonda once while he was a POW – on film. The
occasion was a night when Carrigan and the other 80 or so men he was
interned with were called out into the prison courtyard – "the first
time we'd been outside under the stars in 5 or 6 years." As the men
stood there wondering what was in store for them, a movie projector
began whirring behind them. Their captors were showing them footage of
Fonda's 1972 visit to Hanoi.

Cheers

Nav wrote in message ...
This is part of an urban myth. See
http://urbanlegends.about.com/librar.../aa110399a.htm

You really should try to separate fact from fiction before you repost
lies about living people. e.g:



Nav,

Check out snopes.com ~~~~~search Jane Fonda.

And BTW it none of your biz, go back and tend to your sheep!

Here is what you will find:


Claim: During a 1972 trip to North Vietnam, Jane Fonda propagandized
on behalf of the North Vietnamese government, declared that American
POWs were being treated humanely and condemned U.S. soldiers as "war
criminals" and later denounced them as liars for claiming they had
been tortured.

Status: True.

Example: [Collected on the Internet, 1999]


When I was at Camp Pendleton receiving combat corpsman training, I
noticed that the pickup truck belonging to the gunnery sergeant in
charge of our training was adorned with bumper stickers containing
extremely unflattering remarks about Jane Fonda. I also noticed a few
referred to Ms. Fonda and Vietnam, but at the time I honestly had no
idea why.
Being an E-5 and close to rank to our E-7 gunny, after a training
rotation one afternoon I decided to ask him about those stickers, and
what they had to do with Fonda.

He muttered a few obscenities and proceeded to tell me the story.
Fonda, he said, became a traitor during the Vietnam War -- a war in
which "gunny" had served two tours and for which he had received three
Purple Hearts (which is why he enjoyed training Navy corpsmen to be
Marine Corps combat corpsmen -- they'd saved his life a time or two).

The following excerpts are not "gunny's" words, but when received them
in an e-mail recently, it reminded me of his story. And, as ABC's
Barbara Walters prepares to honor the traitorous Jane Fonda during
Walters' "100 years of great women" program soon, I thought the
American people needed to hear this story again. You see, Fonda isn't
just exercise videos and the third wheel in "Nine to Five" (the
movie).


* * * * * * *
"There are few things I have strong visceral reactions to, but Jane
Fonda's participation in what I believe to be blatant treason, is one
of them. Part of my conviction comes from exposure to those who
suffered her attentions.

"In 1978, the Commandant of the USAF Survival School, a colonel, was a
former POW in Ho Lo Prison -- the Hanoi Hilton. Dragged from a
stinking cesspit of a cell, cleaned, fed, and dressed in clean PJs, he
was ordered to describe for a visiting American 'Peace Activist' the
'lenient and humane treatment' he'd received. He spat at Ms. Fonda,
was clubbed, and dragged away. During the subsequent beating, he fell
forward upon the camp Commandant's feet, accidentally pulling the
man's shoe off -- which sent that officer berserk.

"In '78, the AF colonel still suffered from double vision --
permanently grounding him -- from the Vietnamese officer's frenzied
application of a wooden baton.

"From 1983-85, Col. Larry Carrigan was 347FW/DO (F-4Es). He'd spent 6
[product] years in the Hilton -- the first three of which he was
listed as MIA. His wife lived on faith that he was still alive. His
group, too, got the cleaned/fed/clothed routine in preparation for a
'peace delegation' visit.

"They, however, had time and devised a plan to get word to the world
that they still survived. Each man secreted a tiny piece of paper,
with his Social Security number on it, in the palm of his hand. When
paraded before Ms. Fonda and a cameraman, she walked the line, shaking
each man's hand and asking little encouraging snippets like, 'Aren't
you sorry you bombed babies?' and, 'Are you grateful for the humane
treatment from your benevolent captors?'"

"Believing this HAD to be an act, they each palmed her their sliver of
paper. She took them all without missing a beat. At the end of the
line and once the camera stopped rolling, to the shocked disbelief of
the POWs, she turned to the officer in charge ... and handed him the
little pile of notes.

"Three men died from the subsequent beatings. Col. Carrigan was almost
number four.

"For years after their release, a group of determined former POWs,
including Col. Carrigan, tried to bring Ms. Fonda and others up on
charges of treason. I don't know that they used it, but the charge of
'Negligent Homicide due to Depraved Indifference' would also seem
appropriate. Her obvious 'granting of aid and comfort to the enemy'
alone should've been sufficient for the treason count. However, to
date, Jane Fonda has never been formally charged with anything and
continues to enjoy the privileged life of the rich and famous.

"I, personally, think that this is shame on us, the American
Citizenry.

"Part of our shortfall is ignorance: Most don't know such actions ever
took place.

"The only addition I might add to these sentiments is to remember the
satisfaction of relieving myself into the urinal at some air base or
another where 'zaps' of Hanoi Jane's face had been applied."

And there is this account:

"I was a civilian economic development advisor in Vietnam, and was
captured by the North Vietnamese communists in South Vietnam in 1968,
and held for over 5 years. I spent 27 months in solitary confinement,
one year in a cage in Cambodia, and one year in a 'black box' in
Hanoi. My North Vietnamese captors deliberately poisoned and murdered
a female missionary, a nurse in a leprosarium in Ban Me Thuot, South
Vietnam, whom I later buried in the jungle near the Cambodian border.

"At one time, I was weighing approximately 90 lb. [my normal weight is
170 lb.). We were Jane Fonda's 'war criminals.'"

"When Jane Fonda was in Hanoi, I was asked by the camp communist
political officer if I would be willing to meet with her. I said yes,
for I would like to tell her about the real treatment we POWs were
receiving, which was far different from the treatment purported by the
North Vietnamese, and parroted by Jane Fonda, as 'humane and lenient.'
Because of this, I spent three days on a rocky floor on my knees with
outstretched arms with a piece of steel re-bar placed on my hands, and
beaten with a bamboo cane every time my arms dipped.

"Jane Fonda had the audacity to say that the POWs were lying about our
torture and treatment. Now ABC is allowing Barbara Walters to honor
Jane Fonda in her feature "100 Years of Great Women." Shame on the
Disney Company.

"I had the opportunity to meet with Jane Fonda for a couple of hours
after I was released. I asked her if she would be willing to debate me
on TV. She did not answer me, her husband (at the time), Tom Hayden,
answered for her. She was mind controlled by her husband. This does
not exemplify someone who should be honored by '100 Years of Great
Women.'"

"After I was released, I was asked what I thought of Jane Fonda and
the anti-war movement. I said that I held Joan Baez's husband in very
high regard, for he thought the war was wrong, burned his draft card
and went to prison in protest. If the other anti-war protesters took
this same route, it would have brought our judicial system to a halt
and ended the war much earlier, and there wouldn't be as many on that
somber black granite wall called the Vietnam Memorial. This is
democracy. This is the American way.

"Jane Fonda, on the other hand, chose to be a traitor, and went to
Hanoi, wore their uniform, propagandized for the communists, and urged
American soldiers to desert. As we were being tortured, and some of
the POWs murdered, she called us liars. After her heroes -- the North
Vietnamese communists -- took over South Vietnam, they systematically
murdered 80,000 South Vietnamese political prisoners. May their souls
rest on her head forever."

In the words of Paul Harvey, America, "now you know the rest of the
story."

ABC and Babs Walters will undoubtedly include "Hanoi" Jane in their
televised celebration because their black souls are too hardened and
too imbued with an anti-American sentiment to do anything else. And
ultimately, they will all answer for what they have done in their
lives. In the meantime, I don't plan on watching anything that has
Jane Fonda's face anywhere near it. I won't buy her videos; I won't
rent or go see her movies. As far as I'm concerned, she's already dead
to me.

Whether or not you agreed with the war in Vietnam, whether you're a
Vietnam vet or a former member of the protest movement, or whether
you're too old or too young to have been there, the behavior of Jane
Fonda towards our own military men is reprehensible beyond belief. All
I ask is that you think about these accounts the next time you see
her. Let your conscience guide your actions from there.













# Claim: A POW spit at Fonda, for which he was brutally beaten.

# Status: FALSE.

This story is attributed in the email to former Air Force pilot Jerry
Driscoll, who says it's false and did not originate from him. I wasn't
able to speak with him directly, but Mike McGrath and Paul Galanti,
fellow officers of the Nam-POWs organization to which Driscoll belongs,
told me he unequivocally disavows the story.

[UPDATE: After this commentary was written I received personal
confirmation from Jerry Driscoll that the story is indeed bogus – as he
put it, "the product of a very vivid imagination."]


# Claim: Fonda betrayed POWs by turning over slips of paper they gave
her to their captors. POWs were beaten and died as a result.

# Status: FALSE.

"It's a figment of somebody's imagination," says Ret. Col. Larry
Carrigan, whom I reached by phone at his home in Arizona. Carrigan, who
was shot down over North Vietnam in 1967, says he has no idea why this
story was attributed to him. "I never met Jane Fonda," he told me. It
goes without saying he never handed her a secret message.

He said he did see Jane Fonda once while he was a POW – on film. The
occasion was a night when Carrigan and the other 80 or so men he was
interned with were called out into the prison courtyard – "the first
time we'd been outside under the stars in 5 or 6 years." As the men
stood there wondering what was in store for them, a movie projector
began whirring behind them. Their captors were showing them footage of
Fonda's 1972 visit to Hanoi.

Cheers