Dave, holding the Japanese responsible for the atrocities of Pearl is
completely
different than holding JH responsible for the possible damage she did to a
few
people and their families. If someone said to me that they still blame Hanoi
for
the war crimes of the VN war, I would understand their point, but Jane just
doesn't cut it for that.

Sounds to me like you're the one off the deep end, trying to blame the
"liberals"
for anything and everything gone wrong with the world. It doesn't wash.

"Dave" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 17:43:14 -0500, "Scott Vernon"
said:

I know a few guys who are still bitter towards the japs for Pearl Harbor.
I
would never even think to tell them to 'get over it'.

Nor would anyone with a lick of human decency. He seems to have rally gone
off the deep end.


Dave
S/V Good Fortune
CS27

This is true... sigh. The issues just get thrown aside. No talk
of Bush vs. Kerry economic or foreign policy, just mudslinging
and handicaping. Disgusting.

"thunder" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 12:14:49 -0800, Jonathan Ganz wrote:

Rehashing murky memories and upchucking accusations 40 years later does
nothing useful.

Better get used to it. This election is shaping up to be one very hard
fought, very dirty, campaign. It may be difficult to wade through the mud
both sides are starting to fling.

I guess I just can't get over it. Must be Jane Fonda.

"thunder" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 12:14:49 -0800, Jonathan Ganz wrote:

Rehashing murky memories and upchucking accusations 40 years later does
nothing useful.

Better get used to it. This election is shaping up to be one very hard
fought, very dirty, campaign. It may be difficult to wade through the mud
both sides are starting to fling.

Years just don't soften some things.


It softens things for dimwits. The made the bitch a millionair by buying all
her exercise tapes.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"No shirt, no skirt, full service"

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ...
So what. I submit you don't know all the facts either. It's easy
to rehash what HJ did or didn't do, her motivation, and the
results. How do you know, for example, that the beatings
were a direct result of the SSNs? You don't and you can't.
I stand by my comments.


You stupid **** Johnathan,

There are few things I have strong visceral reactions to, but Jane
Fonda's participation in what I believe to be blatant treason, is one
of them. Part of my conviction comes from exposure to those who
suffered her attentions.

In 1978, the Commandant of the USAF Survival School, a colonel, was a
former POW in Ho Lo Prison -- the Hanoi Hilton. Dragged from a
stinking cesspit of a cell, cleaned, fed, and dressed in clean PJs, he
was ordered to describe for a visiting American 'Peace Activist' the
'lenient and humane treatment' he'd received. He spat at Ms. Fonda,
was clubbed, and dragged away. During the subsequent beating, he fell
forward upon the camp Commandant's feet, accidentally pulling the
man's shoe off -- which sent that officer berserk.

In '78, the AF colonel still suffered from double vision --
permanently grounding him -- from the Vietnamese officer's frenzied
application of a wooden baton.

From 1983-85, Col. Larry Carrigan was 347FW/DO (F-4Es). He'd spent 6
[product] years in the Hilton -- the first three of which he was
listed as MIA. His wife lived on faith that he was still alive. His
group, too, got the cleaned/fed/clothed routine in preparation for a
'peace delegation' visit.

They, however, had time and devised a plan to get word to the world
that they still survived. Each man secreted a tiny piece of paper,
with his Social Security number on it, in the palm of his hand. When
paraded before Ms. Fonda and a cameraman, she walked the line, shaking
each man's hand and asking little encouraging snippets like, 'Aren't
you sorry you bombed babies?' and, 'Are you grateful for the humane
treatment from your benevolent captors?

Believing this HAD to be an act, they each palmed her their sliver of
paper. She took them all without missing a beat. At the end of the
line and once the camera stopped rolling, to the shocked disbelief of
the POWs, she turned to the officer in charge ... and handed him the
little pile of notes.

Three men died from the subsequent beatings. Col. Carrigan was almost
number four.

For years after their release, a group of determined former POWs,
including Col. Carrigan, tried to bring Ms. Fonda and others up on
charges of treason. I don't know that they used it, but the charge of
'Negligent Homicide due to Depraved Indifference' would also seem
appropriate. Her obvious 'granting of aid and comfort to the enemy'
alone should've been sufficient for the treason count. However, to
date, Jane Fonda has never been formally charged with anything and
continues to enjoy the privileged life of the rich and famous.

I, personally, think that this is shame on us, the American Citizenry.

Part of our shortfall is ignorance: Most don't know such actions ever
took place.

The only addition I might add to these sentiments is to remember the
satisfaction of relieving myself into the urinal at some air base or
another where 'zaps' of Hanoi Jane's face had been applied.

And there is this account:

"I was a civilian economic development advisor in Vietnam, and was
captured by the North Vietnamese communists in South Vietnam in 1968,
and held for over 5 years. I spent 27 months in solitary confinement,
one year in a cage in Cambodia, and one year in a 'black box' in
Hanoi. My North Vietnamese captors deliberately poisoned and murdered
a female missionary, a nurse in a leprosarium in Ban Me Thuot, South
Vietnam, whom I later buried in the jungle near the Cambodian border.

"At one time, I was weighing approximately 90 lb. [my normal weight is
170 lb.). We were Jane Fonda's 'war criminals.'"

"When Jane Fonda was in Hanoi, I was asked by the camp communist
political officer if I would be willing to meet with her. I said yes,
for I would like to tell her about the real treatment we POWs were
receiving, which was far different from the treatment purported by the
North Vietnamese, and parroted by Jane Fonda, as 'humane and lenient.'
Because of this, I spent three days on a rocky floor on my knees with
outstretched arms with a piece of steel re-bar placed on my hands, and
beaten with a bamboo cane every time my arms dipped.

"Jane Fonda had the audacity to say that the POWs were lying about our
torture and treatment.

"I had the opportunity to meet with Jane Fonda for a couple of hours
after I was released. I asked her if she would be willing to debate me
on TV. She did not answer me, her husband (at the time), Tom Hayden,
answered for her. She was mind controlled by her husband. This does
not exemplify someone who should be honored by '100 Years of Great
Women.'"

"After I was released, I was asked what I thought of Jane Fonda and
the anti-war movement. I said that I held Joan Baez's husband in very
high regard, for he thought the war was wrong, burned his draft card
and went to prison in protest. If the other anti-war protesters took
this same route, it would have brought our judicial system to a halt
and ended the war much earlier, and there wouldn't be as many on that
somber black granite wall called the Vietnam Memorial. This is
democracy. This is the American way.

"Jane Fonda, on the other hand, chose to be a traitor, and went to
Hanoi, wore their uniform, propagandized for the communists, and urged
American soldiers to desert. As we were being tortured, and some of
the POWs murdered, she called us liars. After her heroes -- the North
Vietnamese communists -- took over South Vietnam, they systematically
murdered 80,000 South Vietnamese political prisoners. May their souls
rest on her head forever."

In the words of Paul Harvey, America, "now you know the rest of the
story."



Whether or not you agreed with the war in Vietnam, whether you're a
Vietnam vet or a former member of the protest movement, or whether
you're too old or too young to have been there, the behavior of Jane
Fonda towards our own military men is reprehensible beyond belief. All
I ask is that you think about these accounts the next time you see
her. Let your conscience guide your actions from there.

Capt. American


"Matt Colie" wrote in message
...
Jonathan,
You are obviously not a student of the period. You would know the
incident referred to is true (if the Hanoi press and our flyers are to
be believed). She had long been vocal, but the prisoners did not know
it as they were denied rights afforded the Geneva Conventions. So when
they were paraded in front of her and responded that they were well
treated and much regretted the actions of the country (this of course
had nothing to do with the man standing behind them with a cattle prod -
the prod is visible in one of Jane's publicity pictures). They had
secreted a slip of paper with the SSN of all the captives so the
families could be informed. It was passed to HJ during a handshake. It
was hoped she would take it back to the Red Cross or any other agency.
Instead - As soon as she was through with the photo-op, she handed the
slip to th lead guard. The beatings that followed were merciless.
You can forget what ever you want to.
Matt Colie

Well, I'm certainly glad you don't resort to name calling, you
****ing moron.

"Capt.American" wrote in message
m...
You stupid **** Johnathan,

So what. Who cares what you think???

There are few things I have strong visceral reactions to, but Jane
Fonda's participation in what I believe to be blatant treason, is one
of them. Part of my conviction comes from exposure to those who
suffered her attentions.

In 1978,

bs historical diatribe deleted

This is part of an urban myth. See
http://urbanlegends.about.com/librar.../aa110399a.htm

You really should try to separate fact from fiction before you repost
lies about living people. e.g:


# Claim: A POW spit at Fonda, for which he was brutally beaten.

# Status: FALSE.

This story is attributed in the email to former Air Force pilot Jerry
Driscoll, who says it's false and did not originate from him. I wasn't
able to speak with him directly, but Mike McGrath and Paul Galanti,
fellow officers of the Nam-POWs organization to which Driscoll belongs,
told me he unequivocally disavows the story.

[UPDATE: After this commentary was written I received personal
confirmation from Jerry Driscoll that the story is indeed bogus – as he
put it, "the product of a very vivid imagination."]


# Claim: Fonda betrayed POWs by turning over slips of paper they gave
her to their captors. POWs were beaten and died as a result.

# Status: FALSE.

"It's a figment of somebody's imagination," says Ret. Col. Larry
Carrigan, whom I reached by phone at his home in Arizona. Carrigan, who
was shot down over North Vietnam in 1967, says he has no idea why this
story was attributed to him. "I never met Jane Fonda," he told me. It
goes without saying he never handed her a secret message.

He said he did see Jane Fonda once while he was a POW – on film. The
occasion was a night when Carrigan and the other 80 or so men he was
interned with were called out into the prison courtyard – "the first
time we'd been outside under the stars in 5 or 6 years." As the men
stood there wondering what was in store for them, a movie projector
began whirring behind them. Their captors were showing them footage of
Fonda's 1972 visit to Hanoi.

Cheers

Sounds like it's plonk time.

Oz wrote in message ...
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 16:56:37 +1300, Nav
scribbled thusly:

This is part of an urban myth. See
http://urbanlegends.about.com/librar.../aa110399a.htm

You really should try to separate fact from fiction before you repost
lies about living people. e.g:

The guy's a rednecked flag waving lunatic..incapable of sorting fact
from fiction


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

Let alone the fact that the actual vets involved want no part of this
dishonesty -and I think that says much about their integrity. Why aren't
the 'rednecks' ashamed to besmirch their honor and veracity?

Cheers

Oz wrote:
Yeah, probably...it seems the truth will be interpreted as anti
american..wher in fact it's anti rednecked flag waving lunatic :-)

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 21:30:10 -0800, "Jonathan Ganz"
scribbled thusly:


Sounds like it's plonk time.

Oz wrote in message ...

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 16:56:37 +1300, Nav
scribbled thusly:


This is part of an urban myth. See
http://urbanlegends.about.com/librar.../aa110399a.htm

You really should try to separate fact from fiction before you repost
lies about living people. e.g:

The guy's a rednecked flag waving lunatic..incapable of sorting fact
from fiction


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.




Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

No they're just brainless morons.

Oz wrote in message ...
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 19:09:01 +1300, Nav
scribbled thusly:

Let alone the fact that the actual vets involved want no part of this
dishonesty -and I think that says much about their integrity. Why aren't
the 'rednecks' ashamed to besmirch their honor and veracity?

Cheers

Ummm...because they're brainless ****ing morons?

Just a guess.....


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.