Whats good about 30 degrees heel anyway?
 

I have two super bungies just for that purpose. They are 1/2" by 2" thick
pieces of stretchable sort of rubber but it takes a lot of pressure to
stretch them, both about 3' long. Came with my last boat and they are
going on the new one for use as preventer snubbers. Work like a charm in
winds that are consistent.

M.

"SAIL LOCO" wrote in message
...
I've also seen big boats with
solid vangs put a bungie cord to the lowers from the solid vang to hold
the boom out.

Think I'll try that next summer.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"No shirt, no skirt, full service"

Whats good about 30 degrees heel anyway?
 

I hope you don't attach them to the stays.

Chees

Michael wrote:

I have two super bungies just for that purpose. They are 1/2" by 2" thick
pieces of stretchable sort of rubber but it takes a lot of pressure to
stretch them, both about 3' long. Came with my last boat and they are
going on the new one for use as preventer snubbers. Work like a charm in
winds that are consistent.

M.

"SAIL LOCO" wrote in message
...

I've also seen big boats with
solid vangs put a bungie cord to the lowers from the solid vang to hold
the boom out.

Think I'll try that next summer.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
"No shirt, no skirt, full service"

Whats good about 30 degrees heel anyway?
 

I think after the next working trip I'll take the boat up to Thom's harbor
and get loose foot lessons. Why re-invent the wheel when you can learn from
the master?

Michael



"Donal" wrote in message
...

"DSK" wrote in message
...
Donal wrote:
End-boom.

However, I only use the vang when we are off the wind.

This means that when I ease the main, that it will rise.

Bearing in mind that I am usually sailing in gusty conditions, would
it
be
better to drop the travellor, than dump the main?

Depends ;) The stock answer is that it is better to drop the traveller
and maintain the same twist & leach tension, and for the most part
that's true. The exception is when you get a gust that is much stronger
and/or a big lift, that will knock the boat over even with the traveller
all the way to lee. Then you do want the sail to twist dramatically,
because that dumps pressure on the upper part of the sail where the wind
has the most leverage to heel the boat, it relieves the sudden weather
helm, and it maintains drive in the lower sections instead of just
flogging the whole sail. The problem is that with many rigs, the jib
then becomes a bag and must also be eased (or given a heave on the
barber hauler).

Also when it's choppy and the boat is pitching appreciably, you want
more twist so the traveller should be set higher, and vang looser, than
in smooth water.

Why? (I'd assume that you need maximum power to get through the chop).




Oz1 ia right about steering with the traveller. When you get the right
amount of helm dialed in (2 ~ 3 degrees at most), bringing the traveller
up will increase weather helm and feather the boat slightly, easing the
traveller will make her bear away. Changing the heel is part of what
does this, but you can notice the effect even if you only go for a very
slight change in heel.

As I said to Thom earlier, there is great info in this group.

It's become very clear that I have been using the mainsheet, when I should
have been using the travellor. It also seems that I have been sailing
with
the travellor set too high. I might need to add more pulleys to the
travellor - or maybe it will be easier to adjust when it is being used a
bit
lower.


Regards


Donal
--




Thanks.



Regards


Donal
--

Whats good about 30 degrees heel anyway?
 

Donal,

Good advice from Doug. The exception for me is the "GUST" If I'm
working up wind I like to take advantage to work a little higher into
the wind, if I can on the increased pressure, by feathering into the
wind while releasing heeling with rudder action. This takes some
coordination with Main trimmer and helmsman but is do-able.

Ole Thom

Whats good about 30 degrees heel anyway?
 

"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
Donal,

From the middle to the back ender: Advice for what's its worth, upwind
sail trim.

I set the jenney first. The car to wind conditions Normal air---car set
to put the sheet at an angle to spilt the angle of the clew Hvy
Air----farther back, Lgt air___forward. This is to increase the twist
in hvy air and release pressure aloft; lgt air----baggy shape

Thanks, Thom. That makes sense.



Sheet tension; enough tension to draw the the 150% jenny to within the
distance of about two fist from touching the end of the spreaders Normal
Air. This will increase in Hvy air slightly as you ease the sheet and
open the leech. This will increase in lgt air also but the leech will
remain closed

MAIN SAIL;
Normal air shape; Upper batten should be parallel to the boom.
Boom should be released with the traveller into the slot until the main
starts to backwind at the tack edge, then should be drawn in to just
remove the back wind bubble

If this creates a heeling greater than 20 degrees I start to increase
the twist on the jenny while watching the speed on the speed-o-meter. If
heeling is decrease without speed loss, I increase twist in MAIN to
match jenny. If I lose speed, I'll increase sheet tension on jenny until
back winding Main just a little and accepting the increase in heel.

All this is being done watching the helm, which should remain neutral
and on course. ( This is where you should be able to trim course
adjustments with the traveller))

OK Donal, my friend, I've bared my soul to the group. Let's hope we get
some help to move us up in our fleets without buying a new boat (I like
my PH) You on the other hand have a damn fast boat under you. Pay
attention to the comments of the sailors in the group.

It's been a very good couple of weeks for trimming advice.

I'm looking forward to trying it all out.

I'll report back to the group as soon as I get out on the water again.....
hopefully, in the next few weeks!!!!




Regards


Donal
--

Whats good about 30 degrees heel anyway?
 

"DSK" wrote in message
...
Donal wrote:
End-boom.

However, I only use the vang when we are off the wind.

This means that when I ease the main, that it will rise.

Bearing in mind that I am usually sailing in gusty conditions, would it
be
better to drop the travellor, than dump the main?

Depends ;) The stock answer is that it is better to drop the traveller
and maintain the same twist & leach tension, and for the most part
that's true. The exception is when you get a gust that is much stronger
and/or a big lift, that will knock the boat over even with the traveller
all the way to lee. Then you do want the sail to twist dramatically,
because that dumps pressure on the upper part of the sail where the wind
has the most leverage to heel the boat, it relieves the sudden weather
helm, and it maintains drive in the lower sections instead of just
flogging the whole sail. The problem is that with many rigs, the jib
then becomes a bag and must also be eased (or given a heave on the
barber hauler).

Also when it's choppy and the boat is pitching appreciably, you want
more twist so the traveller should be set higher, and vang looser, than
in smooth water.

Why? (I'd assume that you need maximum power to get through the chop).




Oz1 ia right about steering with the traveller. When you get the right
amount of helm dialed in (2 ~ 3 degrees at most), bringing the traveller
up will increase weather helm and feather the boat slightly, easing the
traveller will make her bear away. Changing the heel is part of what
does this, but you can notice the effect even if you only go for a very
slight change in heel.

As I said to Thom earlier, there is great info in this group.

It's become very clear that I have been using the mainsheet, when I should
have been using the travellor. It also seems that I have been sailing with
the travellor set too high. I might need to add more pulleys to the
travellor - or maybe it will be easier to adjust when it is being used a bit
lower.


Regards


Donal
--




Thanks.



Regards


Donal
--

Whats good about 30 degrees heel anyway?
 

Sorry for not answering sooner. Didn't see this post way up at the top.


Also when it's choppy and the boat is pitching appreciably, you want
more twist so the traveller should be set higher, and vang looser, than
in smooth water.


Donal wrote:
Why? (I'd assume that you need maximum power to get through the chop).

In chop, when the mast is weaving around through the air, more twist
does give more power.



It's become very clear that I have been using the mainsheet, when I should
have been using the travellor.

Or setting the vang up a lot harder.

... It also seems that I have been sailing with
the travellor set too high. I might need to add more pulleys to the
travellor - or maybe it will be easier to adjust when it is being used a bit
lower.

With end-boom sheeting on a 33 footer I'd think that 3:1 should be OK if
it has good bearings. It shouldn't be difficult or expensive to up it to
4:1 but I don't see much reason to go beyond that. When not loaded, you
should be able to push the traveller from side to side easily with one
finger. Also it should not have much play... maybe the bearings are shot?

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Whats good about 30 degrees heel anyway?
 

"DSK" wrote in message
. ..
Sorry for not answering sooner. Didn't see this post way up at the top.


Also when it's choppy and the boat is pitching appreciably, you want
more twist so the traveller should be set higher, and vang looser, than
in smooth water.


Donal wrote:
Why? (I'd assume that you need maximum power to get through the chop).

In chop, when the mast is weaving around through the air, more twist
does give more power.

Is this easy to explain? I would have assumed that more twist would mean
less power.






It's become very clear that I have been using the mainsheet, when I
should
have been using the travellor.

Or setting the vang up a lot harder.

I haven't been using the vang at all when beating. I will try this, in
conjunction with with a lower travellor, the next time that I go out.




... It also seems that I have been sailing with
the travellor set too high. I might need to add more pulleys to the
travellor - or maybe it will be easier to adjust when it is being used a
bit
lower.

With end-boom sheeting on a 33 footer I'd think that 3:1 should be OK if
it has good bearings. It shouldn't be difficult or expensive to up it to
4:1 but I don't see much reason to go beyond that. When not loaded, you
should be able to push the traveller from side to side easily with one
finger. Also it should not have much play... maybe the bearings are shot?

I apply silicone grease a couple of times a season. Afterwards, a little
flick of the index finger will send the car to the far end of the track.
Also, I've had the boat from new, so I am fairly confident that the bearings
are OK. They are not noticably worse than when the boat was new.

Regards


Donal
--

Whats good about 30 degrees heel anyway?
 

In chop, when the mast is weaving around through the air, more twist
does give more power.


Donal wrote:
Is this easy to explain? I would have assumed that more twist would mean
less power.

Well, the easiest way to explain it is to say, "Buddy Melges says so"
and it seems to work... but that's a cop-put isn't it...

To my possibly limited understanding, when the boat is both pitching and
rocking, the flow across the sail is very inconsistant. Loosening the
vang allows more twist and opens the leach... you don't want it totally
loose, just 'somewhat looser' than would be good for the wind strength
otherwise. The greater twist allows more of the sail to be at the right
angle of attack at any given instant, since it is changing widely as the
boat rocks & pitches. The open leach allows flow to re-establish itself
as far as possible, as quickly as possible, and allows the pressure on
the upwind side to flow out the back and add drive.

BTW trying to point very high in these circumstances doesn't work as well.


I apply silicone grease a couple of times a season. Afterwards, a little
flick of the index finger will send the car to the far end of the track.
Also, I've had the boat from new, so I am fairly confident that the bearings
are OK. They are not noticably worse than when the boat was new.

Sounds like the bearings are definitely not shot!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Whats good about 30 degrees heel anyway?
 

Donal,

It is my understanding; that in a pitching and rocking mode, the sailing
groove has to be opened. Made wider. Ths is done with a looser leech

Ole Thom