Nav wrote
I guess you would not have overtaken the race leader -look at this:


http://www.sevenoceans.com/SoloAroun...Leg1/Day30.htm

Great pics. But again.. a special case. Those boats are more like scows.
Besides, for publicity shots they like to heel the boats 'way over. And
the boat in the top pic is certainly not heeling at any great angle. I
guess you have to be *very* selective in choosing examples that support
your contention?

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Nav wrote:
Wrong again. Look at the references.

OK, I bow to your greater experience with googling and bookshelf
sailing. Heel your boat to 30 degrees all you want, it's fun. Who am I
to try and convince you to look around in the real world?

DSK

DSK wrote:

Nav wrote

I guess you would not have overtaken the race leader -look at this:


http://www.sevenoceans.com/SoloAroun...Leg1/Day30.htm



Great pics. But again.. a special case. Those boats are more like scows.
Besides, for publicity shots they like to heel the boats 'way over.
And the boat in the top pic is certainly not heeling at any great
angle. I
guess you have to be *very* selective in choosing examples that support
your contention?


No, these boats are faster at 30 degrees of heel when beating as I keep
saying. Are your seriously suggesting you are a better racer than
Thiercelin who talk about being at a permanent 40 degree heel?

You are dead wrong on this one -admit it.

Cheers

Nav wrote:
Bluster all you like but 30 degrres for max boat speed is still quite
usual.

So far, you seem to be talking about IACC boats and 'Round-the-world
racers.... now you're generalizing to all boats? These are pretty
specialized designs.

Find a quote from a racing skipper who says specifically, "Yes, we won
because we kept the boat at 30 degrees heel and more." Then maybe you'll
have something. If you are a member of a sailing club you can ask
around... oh wait, that's in the real world...

For the following quote, I'll give you 2 points (although Bart is the
official scorekeeper, he'll have to verify it) it still proves nothing
about the way 'most boats' sail IMHO.



....While a canting keel increases stability (or righting moment)
dramatically under

typical sailing conditions (say 30 degrees of heel),

its offset CG actually works against a self-righting tendency at large,
knockdown heel angles.

True because the canting keel will have similar CG geometry to a dinghy
with a hiked out crew... oops wait...

.... Accordingly, Volvo 70 Rule developers have
closely examined limitations on hull displacement and beam that affect
form stability, with additional limitations on keel weight and keel
swing angles. Each yacht shall have a designer-calculated limit of
positive stability greater than 115 degrees, with appendages positioned
in a worst-case scenario. In addition, each boat must successfully
self-right from a 180-degree inversion using only manual power to
articulate the keel."

This is rather ironic, Navvie, they are talking about LPOS not max
speed. Another oops?


http://www.perrottidesign.com/new_Volvo_Open70.html

Anyway thanks for the link. Cool pictures, I am looking forward to
seeing more forward-foil boats sailing.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Nav wrote:


DSK wrote:

Nav wrote:

Have you done any big boat sailing or been in a race in windy
conditions?



Why, of COURSE not, Navvie. Never!


Well it's good to know my suspicions were correct.

Just as correct as most of your other assertions.



So you're saying that you base your judgement solely on what you've
read in books?


It was you that was seeking references wasn't it? Don't you like
definitive references that support my views? How strange. Perhaps you
are the sophist Jax suggested?

Because I show that you are wrong, does that make me evil or sick in
your opinion? Besies, if I am as stupid as you say, then I could not
have the intelligence & subtlety to be a sophist.

DSK

Nav wrote:
No, these boats are faster at 30 degrees of heel when beating as I keep
saying. Are your seriously suggesting you are a better racer than
Thiercelin who talk about being at a permanent 40 degree heel?

Key- 'these boats'

You keep picking expamles of extreme type and saying this is how normal
boats sail.


You are dead wrong on this one -admit it.

Nope, so far you have provided some interesting pictures and some
exceptional examples, but for most boats that is far too much heel for
best performance. The fact that you *think* you are proving something is
really kind of amusing.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

DSK wrote:

Nav wrote:

Wrong again. Look at the references.


OK, I bow to your greater experience with googling and bookshelf
sailing. Heel your boat to 30 degrees all you want, it's fun. Who am I
to try and convince you to look around in the real world?


Don't you get it Doug? 30 degrees heel is quite normal (and often very
fast upwind) for most big keel boats! For proof look at the refs I've cited!
They also contain real tests of real boats by experts. The funny thing
is that the boats really are faster at the sort of angle I've quoted
than at 12 degrees. I guess you'd say they must all be wrong too? What
would Herreschof say?

Cheers.

Nav wrote:
Don't you get it Doug? 30 degrees heel is quite normal (and often very
fast upwind) for most big keel boats! For proof look at the refs I've
cited!

You hve cited some pics and references to some very UNusual,
far-outside-the-normal specialized boats. But you don't even realize
that, do you?

They also contain real tests of real boats by experts. The funny thing
is that the boats really are faster at the sort of angle I've quoted
than at 12 degrees. I guess you'd say they must all be wrong too? What
would Herreschof say?

Any of the Herreshoffs would probably say, "Don't argue with an idiot,
Doug, people might not be able to tell the difference. And besides, let
Navvie heel his boat 'way 'way over if it makes him feel all manly."

The only reason I have kept in this discussion is to counterbalance your
whacky suggestions that might be taken seriously by novice sailors. But
I think the time for that is passed.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

DSK wrote:



You are dead wrong on this one -admit it.


Nope, so far you have provided some interesting pictures and some
exceptional examples, but for most boats that is far too much heel for
best performance. The fact that you *think* you are proving something is
really kind of amusing.


So according to you the books I quoted on naval architecture are wrong?
Oh boy.

Cheers

I wonder why Hood talk about sail design for Italy on the basis of an
IACC 30 degree heel? They must be wron according to Doug too! But,
didn't Prada win the LV?

http://www.hoodsailmakers.it/eng/reg..._aero/aero.htm


You are sooooooooo busted.

Cheers