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Self-tending jibs
What are the advantages and disadvantages
of a self-tending jib? What rig design makes these most effective? Do you know of any production sloops designed with a self tending jib? Bart Senior |
Self-tending jibs
Bart,
There are two disadvantages you don't get the performance to weather an overlapping jig will give you and - they don't go to leeward worth a damn. The obvious advantage is that you can come about without any commotion. If a young man happens to have barrowed someones knock about (sloop without bowsprit) to spend some quiet time with a young lady. It allows a lot of sailing time without much distraction caused by the rig. A wonderful way to have an evening on Fishers Island Sound but you better be real close to the mooring when the nine o'clock calm drops on you. All the boats I have know to have a selftending jib were fractional sloops or ketch. It never made sense to me that some of the long boom boats had runniong backs and a club-foot jib. I haven't seen a boat built with a jib boom and traveler in several decades (other than two reproductions). Matt Colie - see prior sig N1EE wrote: What are the advantages and disadvantages of a self-tending jib? What rig design makes these most effective? Do you know of any production sloops designed with a self tending jib? Bart Senior |
Self-tending jibs
"N1EE" wrote in message om... What are the advantages and disadvantages of a self-tending jib? Are you referring to self-tacking jobs? What rig design makes these most effective? I'd assume that threy need to be fractional to work at all. Do you know of any production sloops designed with a self tending jib? Dehler 41. A very nice boat indeed. I was overtaken by one during the Round the Island race about 4 years ago. The only thing that I don't like about the current Dehlers is the enormous steering wheel. I worry about what would happen in an emergency if there were only two people aboard. Regards Donal -- |
Self-tending jibs
"N1EE" wrote in message om... "Donal" wrote "N1EE" wrote What are the advantages and disadvantages of a self-tending jib? Are you referring to self-tacking jobs? Right What rig design makes these most effective? I'd assume that threy need to be fractional to work at all. Why? I *assume* that they must have a small jib, and therefore they must have a large main. Ergo, a fractional rig. I've stressed the word "assume" because I freely admit that an assumption can be wrong. I'm not an expert on this. Do you know of any production sloops designed with a self tending jib? Dehler 41. A very nice boat indeed. I was overtaken by one during the Round the Island race about 4 years ago. The only thing that I don't like about the current Dehlers is the enormous steering wheel. I worry about what would happen in an emergency if there were only two people aboard. It should be easy for oe person to steer it. True, but it would be difficult for that person to go forward in a hurry. They would have to climb up on to the sidedecks. As my kids are reaching the age where they might soon fly the nest, I am looking at boats with a view to sailing them two handed. My wife tends to enjoy the destinations a bit more than the trips. In fact, she enjoys the trips where there is so little wind that we have to use the engine. [sigh]. Regards Donal -- Bart Senior |
Self-tending jibs
"Capt.American" wrote in message m... "Donal" wrote in message ... "N1EE" wrote in message om... What are the advantages and disadvantages of a self-tending jib? Are you referring to self-tacking jobs? What rig design makes these most effective? I'd assume that threy need to be fractional to work at all. Do you know of any production sloops designed with a self tending jib? Dehler 41. A very nice boat indeed. I was overtaken by one during the Round the Island race about 4 years ago. Hahahahaha~ bets that happens often on your boat. The only thing that I don't like about the current Dehlers is the enormous steering wheel. I worry about what would happen in an emergency if there were only two people aboard. What! What does the size of the wheel have to do with 2 people?. Are you like a keystone cops?. Do you run into your wheel in excitement? Sailing tip for Donal: If you move you hand towards the center of the steering wheel(Helm) and use the spokes you can steer faster. Cheerios! Tally hhoooooooo~~~ pop pop Heh heh. You cannot upset me with talk about sailing, CA. You understand sailing much more than I do. If you want an arguement, then you should talk politics. I just love political discussion with thick rednecks.... and you are one of the finest!!! Regards Donal -- |
Self-tending jibs
"Marc" wrote in message ... You"ve sailed a self tender, how did you like it? Please, do NOT ask sailing questions of Bob. Regards Donal -- On 11 Jan 2004 15:22:07 GMT, (Bobsprit) wrote: One person at my yacht club has a Freedom 35 with a self-tacking jib. Donal and Scotty are also self tacky. RB |
Self-tending jibs
"Donal" wrote in message ... What rig design makes these most effective? I'd assume that threy need to be fractional to work at all. Why? The PDQ 32 has a self-tacker that's masthead rigged. I've never sailed one, but I think Ganz has. |
Self-tending jibs
Yep... didn't like it much. It was hard to adjust for good performance.
(I'm 75% certain it was a masthead... just can't recall completely.) "Jeff Morris" wrote in message ... "Donal" wrote in message ... What rig design makes these most effective? I'd assume that threy need to be fractional to work at all. Why? The PDQ 32 has a self-tacker that's masthead rigged. I've never sailed one, but I think Ganz has. |
Self-tending jibs
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Self-tending jibs
"Frank Maier" wrote in message I'm a fan of Garry Hoyt's Cat-sloop Freedom rig. The big, large-roach main helps offset the limitations of the limited-size jib. Freedom, although it doesn't seem that they're really "in production" anymore. Don't some Island Packets use a Hoyt self-tending, self-vanging jib? They're certainly still in business, but all of their new designs are powerboats. This seems to be the current trend. http://www.freedomyachts.com/freedom1.htm |
Self-tending jibs
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Self-tending jibs
On 10 Jan 2004 10:29:18 -0800, (N1EE) wrote
this crap: What are the advantages and disadvantages of a self-tending jib? What rig design makes these most effective? Do you know of any production sloops designed with a self tending jib? One person at my yacht club has a Freedom 35 with a self-tacking jib. This signature is now the ultimate power in the universe |
Self-tending jibs
One person at my yacht club has a Freedom 35 with a self-tacking jib.
Donal and Scotty are also self tacky. RB |
Self-tending jibs
You"ve sailed a self tender, how did you like it?
On 11 Jan 2004 15:22:07 GMT, (Bobsprit) wrote: One person at my yacht club has a Freedom 35 with a self-tacking jib. Donal and Scotty are also self tacky. RB |
Self-tending jibs
Bart,
I can't say for sure but I've heard from a pretty good authority that Susan has "Nutsy" rigged with a "Production Self-tendind "Bib" Ole Thom |
Self-tending jibs
Matt Colie wrote in message ...
Bart, There are two disadvantages you don't get the performance to weather an overlapping jig will give you and - they don't go to leeward worth a damn. What prevents you from setting a spinnaker when sailing to leeward? Either a runner or asym? The obvious advantage is that you can come about without any commotion. Not just once, but short tacking becomes a breeze. Imagine fighting headwinds and current in a channel where you need to tack often! A self tending jib would be a breeze while tacking a jib would rapidly wear you out. If a young man happens to have barrowed someones knock about (sloop without bowsprit) to spend some quiet time with a young lady. It allows a lot of sailing time without much distraction caused by the rig. True. It leaves your hands free for other things. A wonderful way to have an evening on Fishers Island Sound but you better be real close to the mooring when the nine o'clock calm drops on you. All the boats I have know to have a selftending jib were fractional sloops or ketch. It never made sense to me that some of the long boom boats had runniong backs and a club-foot jib. I haven't seen a boat built with a jib boom and traveler in several decades (other than two reproductions). There is no requirement for a jib boom. I don't like them except as staysails. Bart Senior |
Self-tending jibs
"Donal" wrote
"N1EE" wrote What are the advantages and disadvantages of a self-tending jib? Are you referring to self-tacking jobs? Right What rig design makes these most effective? I'd assume that threy need to be fractional to work at all. Why? Do you know of any production sloops designed with a self tending jib? Dehler 41. A very nice boat indeed. I was overtaken by one during the Round the Island race about 4 years ago. The only thing that I don't like about the current Dehlers is the enormous steering wheel. I worry about what would happen in an emergency if there were only two people aboard. It should be easy for oe person to steer it. Bart Senior |
Self-tending jibs
Maynard G. Krebbs wrote
On 10 Jan 2004 10:29:18 -0800, (N1EE) wrote: What are the advantages and disadvantages of a self-tending jib? What rig design makes these most effective? Do you know of any production sloops designed with a self tending jib? Bart Senior No personal experience but I've heard they are an easy way to get a broken leg. Mark E. Williams I sailed many times on a 38' Swedish designed boat with a self tending jib, no jib-boom, and it was fast in the light air nighttime wind of San Francisco. It would move on a breath of wind. In heavy air it won the double handed Farralone Race many years ago. It won for three reasons, it was easy to tack upwind, and the owner and his son, carried the spinnaker all the way back in 35 knots of wind, and the boat didn't break. I loved the boat and if it had more headroom, I would have bought one. Bart Senior |
Self-tending jibs
Are you an idiot or what?
"Horvath" wrote in message ... On 10 Jan 2004 10:29:18 -0800, (N1EE) wrote this crap: What are the advantages and disadvantages of a self-tending jib? What rig design makes these most effective? Do you know of any production sloops designed with a self tending jib? One person at my yacht club has a Freedom 35 with a self-tacking jib. This signature is now the ultimate power in the universe |
Self-tending jibs
"Donal" wrote in message ...
"N1EE" wrote in message om... What are the advantages and disadvantages of a self-tending jib? Are you referring to self-tacking jobs? What rig design makes these most effective? I'd assume that threy need to be fractional to work at all. Do you know of any production sloops designed with a self tending jib? Dehler 41. A very nice boat indeed. I was overtaken by one during the Round the Island race about 4 years ago. Hahahahaha~ bets that happens often on your boat. The only thing that I don't like about the current Dehlers is the enormous steering wheel. I worry about what would happen in an emergency if there were only two people aboard. What! What does the size of the wheel have to do with 2 people?. Are you like a keystone cops?. Do you run into your wheel in excitement? Sailing tip for Donal: If you move you hand towards the center of the steering wheel(Helm) and use the spokes you can steer faster. Cheerios! Tally hhoooooooo~~~ pop pop CA Regards Donal -- |
Self-tending jibs
"Jeff Morris" wrote:
"Frank Maier" wrote: I'm a fan of Garry Hoyt's Cat-sloop Freedom rig. The big, large-roach main helps offset the limitations of the limited-size jib. Freedom, although it doesn't seem that they're really "in production" anymore. Don't some Island Packets use a Hoyt self-tending, self-vanging jib? They're certainly still in business, but all of their new designs are powerboats. This seems to be the current trend. Well, there's just so much more possibility for profit to be made from powerboat sales. Plus, in the specific instance of Freedom, I'd hafta guess that the concept just never caught on well enought to create a solid market demand or niche. (I'm completely ignorant about business and marketing; so forgive my naive conceptualizations.) You can still order a boat from them. Their newest ("current") designs, the Pedrick 35 and 40, are still nominally unstayed cat rigs; but they're offered with running backs so you can skip the (small) self-tending jib in favor of overlapping headsails. Harrumphf! Might as well buy a Catalina. Frank |
Self-tending jibs
You"ve sailed a self tender, how did you like it?
On your freedom, it worked very well. That particular day we were treated to very constant strong breeze. I'd be interested to see how well it works in other conditions...light stuff. RB |
Self-tending jibs
"Frank Maier" wrote in message om... Plus, in the specific instance of Freedom, I'd hafta guess that the concept just never caught on well enought to create a solid market demand or niche. (I'm completely ignorant about business and marketing; so forgive my naive conceptualizations.) They've sold 1300 of them so far, that at least qualifies as a "niche." Nonsuch is another builder that went the "easy tacking" route and sold 1000 high quality boats. Toward the end the new management was trying to "upgrade" the boats by putting in more modern, but cheaper liners; when I suggested that it seemed like a rather arbitrary change, they told me that they had to do something to make them look different because everyone that wanted one of the older designs already had one. An interesting marketing point, but they only got the chance to build a few before going under. The molds were saved and several are built each year on a custom basis. The builder of my boat (PDQ) has been making three power-cats for every sailboat for the last year. They stopped building the smaller 32 unless they have orders for 2 at a time because the profit margin is too low to do a quality job on a one'sy. However, at Annapolis they took orders for 5 of the new 44 foot sailboats - an awesome boat because its designed as a family cruiser, not a charter condomaran. |
Self-tending jibs
OK Bart,
I'll take a crack at the Self-tending jibs. I do believe (I could be wrong) these jibs were used to reduce the size of the Catboats sail. The work boats, before the use of the gasoline engines, were single sail vessels for ease of handling when used by water-men working by themselves. An example would be the New England Catboat. As they got up in size, the sail size became a problem. This was in the days of Gaff Rigs.( the Marconni Rig didn't appear until after the advent of the trans-Atlantic Radio antennas) The single sail's weakness grew. Two heavy booms, weather helm/ with barn door rubber, increased beams to maintain heeling and shallow draft. These were the problems the were solved by the Jib ( The Friendship Sloop) It allowed and increase in sail area without increasing the main. Also, eased the pressure on the weather helm ( Rudder size) As a working boat the extra lines for the jib weren't a welcome addition to the Lobsterman, so the self-tending jib solved that problem. If the mast was cantered back a little the boat would still turn into the wind and wait as the traps were tended with hands off the helm. This made a handy rig and was adopted by the day sailer design. That is where, today you are likely to find the rig. In the knock abouts day sailors. Advantage; Increased sail area, less pressure aloft, Only one line to trim and tack, Reduced beam, smaller rudders, Less crowded cockpits Disadvantage; Size limit on jib (100%) A complicated foredeck Ole Thom |
Self-tending jibs
Donal wrote:
My wife tends to enjoy the destinations a bit more than the trips. In fact, she enjoys the trips where there is so little wind that we have to use the engine. [sigh]. Hmmm.. sounds like my wife, doesn't like it when the boat does that tippy thing! We got out for a while in her brothers power cruiser in a good blow last summer, damn near needed a kidney transplant after, but now she likes the sailboat a lot more. Now if I could just get her to keep quiet when the news is on...... Cheers Marty |
Self-tending jibs
"Donal" wrote:
"N1EE" wrote: ....snip... It should be easy for one person to steer it. True, but it would be difficult for that person to go forward in a hurry. They would have to climb up on to the sidedecks. As my kids are reaching the age where they might soon fly the nest, I am looking at boats with a view to sailing them two handed. ....snip... Well, I'm not familar with the Dehler line; but I have a generic response to this comment. A self-tending jib is so small that it's good for most wind conditions, right up to the point where you simply need to douse it. There's usually no need to go forward "in a hurry." Pretty much no need to go forward at all. If you have single-line reefing for the main as well, you can pretty much single-hand without ever leaving the cockpit. So, unless I'm not understanding your comment, it's really kinda moot. Could you expand on having to go forward "in a hurry"? |
Self-tending jibs
Downhauls are the way to go for jibs. I use my on the
SF bay all the time. It's nice to be able to dowse the jib without going forward, especially on a small boat. "Marc" wrote in message ... I have a downhaul for the jib on my F36. It's only 190 sf. and douses itself to the foredeck and stays contained in the worst conditions I've ever sailed in. Reef the main first, let the jib provide drive for control, douse the jib if needed. All from the cockpit and single handed. Sweet. On 12 Jan 2004 14:27:34 -0800, (Frank Maier) wrote: "Donal" wrote: "N1EE" wrote: ...snip... It should be easy for one person to steer it. True, but it would be difficult for that person to go forward in a hurry. They would have to climb up on to the sidedecks. As my kids are reaching the age where they might soon fly the nest, I am looking at boats with a view to sailing them two handed. ...snip... Well, I'm not familar with the Dehler line; but I have a generic response to this comment. A self-tending jib is so small that it's good for most wind conditions, right up to the point where you simply need to douse it. There's usually no need to go forward "in a hurry." Pretty much no need to go forward at all. If you have single-line reefing for the main as well, you can pretty much single-hand without ever leaving the cockpit. So, unless I'm not understanding your comment, it's really kinda moot. Could you expand on having to go forward "in a hurry"? |
Self-tending jibs
"Frank Maier" wrote in message om... "Donal" wrote: "N1EE" wrote: ...snip... It should be easy for one person to steer it. True, but it would be difficult for that person to go forward in a hurry. They would have to climb up on to the sidedecks. As my kids are reaching the age where they might soon fly the nest, I am looking at boats with a view to sailing them two handed. ...snip... Well, I'm not familar with the Dehler line; but I have a generic response to this comment. A self-tending jib is so small that it's good for most wind conditions, right up to the point where you simply need to douse it. There's usually no need to go forward "in a hurry." Pretty much no need to go forward at all. If you have single-line reefing for the main as well, you can pretty much single-hand without ever leaving the cockpit. So, unless I'm not understanding your comment, it's really kinda moot. Could you expand on having to go forward "in a hurry"? I was thinking of going into the cockpit in a hurry, rather than going forward onto the bow. There are occasions when the main doesn't go up smoothly ... or perhaps when trimming a cruising chute, ... even dumping the main in a hurry ..... I dunno, unexpected things happen on boats. My wife is not physically big, and I don't like the idea of not being able to get there immediately. I suppose that there is also another issue. I know many people whose wives (occasionaly husbands) won't go sailing with them in anything but the gentlest weather. ie motorsailing. I'm lucky that my wife will come sailing with me when I say it's OK. It isn't her hobby, so if I want her to come sailing, then I have to make sure that she enjoys it in a risk free environment. That means that I have to be able to reach her before she gets injured. So, that's why I don't like the idea of a big wheel. Don't get me wrong, my wife isn't a wimp. She is excellent crew. It's just that I know too many people who put their wives off sailing by taking them out in innappropriate conditions. I even know one guy who had to sell his boat! Regards Donal -- |
Self-tending jibs
"Martin Baxter" wrote in message ... Donal wrote: My wife tends to enjoy the destinations a bit more than the trips. In fact, she enjoys the trips where there is so little wind that we have to use the engine. [sigh]. Hmmm.. sounds like my wife, doesn't like it when the boat does that tippy thing! We got out for a while in her brothers power cruiser in a good blow last summer, damn near needed a kidney transplant after, but now she likes the sailboat a lot more. That's why I changed from power to sail. Now if I could just get her to keep quiet when the news is on...... heh hehWife swapping would be a complete waste of time for us. Regards Donal -- |
Self-tending jibs
"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... Downhauls are the way to go for jibs. I use my on the SF bay all the time. It's nice to be able to dowse the jib without going forward, especially on a small boat. Is this a system like the one Old Thom posted a while back? Regards Donal -- |
Self-tending jibs
Go easy on the little guy, CA, it's embarrassing not to be able to see over
the wheel. Scotty "Capt.American" wrote What! What does the size of the wheel have to do with 2 people?. Are you like a keystone cops?. Do you run into your wheel in excitement? Sailing tip for Donal: If you move you hand towards the center of the steering wheel(Helm) and use the spokes you can steer faster. Cheerios! Tally hhoooooooo~~~ pop pop CA Regards Donal -- |
Self-tending jibs
I must have missed the description.
"Donal" wrote in message ... "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... Downhauls are the way to go for jibs. I use my on the SF bay all the time. It's nice to be able to dowse the jib without going forward, especially on a small boat. Is this a system like the one Old Thom posted a while back? Regards Donal -- |
Self-tending jibs
Donal wrote:
Don't get me wrong, my wife isn't a wimp. She is excellent crew. It's just that I know too many people who put their wives off sailing by taking them out in innappropriate conditions. I even know one guy who had to sell his boat! Sell his boat! Sacrilege! If you have to choose between something that doesn't hit the garage door when parking and something that does, you've got to go with the undamaged door! Cheers Marty |
Self-tending jibs
My down haul is a simple 3/16" double braid line tied to the head of
the jib and lead through a block on the stem head and through more blocks on the toe rail aft to the cockpit. A cleat on the stanchion next to the cockpit secures the line. On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 19:14:46 -0800, "Jonathan Ganz" wrote: I must have missed the description. "Donal" wrote in message ... "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... Downhauls are the way to go for jibs. I use my on the SF bay all the time. It's nice to be able to dowse the jib without going forward, especially on a small boat. Is this a system like the one Old Thom posted a while back? Regards Donal -- |
Self-tending jibs
Scott Vernon wrote:
Go easy on the little guy, CA, it's embarrassing not to be able to see over the wheel. Try not to believe everything you read Scott, remember those leprechauns have been known to stretch the truth! Cheers Marty |
Self-tending jibs
"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... I must have missed the description. http://www.lanode.com/priv/OleThom/jibdownhaul.jpg BTW, I've just noticed the image's name - so I suppose the answr is going to be "yes". Regards Donal -- "Donal" wrote in message ... "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... Downhauls are the way to go for jibs. I use my on the SF bay all the time. It's nice to be able to dowse the jib without going forward, especially on a small boat. Is this a system like the one Old Thom posted a while back? Regards Donal -- |
Self-tending jibs
Yes.
"Donal" wrote in message ... "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... I must have missed the description. http://www.lanode.com/priv/OleThom/jibdownhaul.jpg BTW, I've just noticed the image's name - so I suppose the answr is going to be "yes". Regards Donal -- "Donal" wrote in message ... "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... Downhauls are the way to go for jibs. I use my on the SF bay all the time. It's nice to be able to dowse the jib without going forward, especially on a small boat. Is this a system like the one Old Thom posted a while back? Regards Donal -- |
Self-tending jibs
Sounds quite similar to mine.
"Marc" wrote in message ... My down haul is a simple 3/16" double braid line tied to the head of the jib and lead through a block on the stem head and through more blocks on the toe rail aft to the cockpit. A cleat on the stanchion next to the cockpit secures the line. On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 19:14:46 -0800, "Jonathan Ganz" wrote: I must have missed the description. "Donal" wrote in message ... "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... Downhauls are the way to go for jibs. I use my on the SF bay all the time. It's nice to be able to dowse the jib without going forward, especially on a small boat. Is this a system like the one Old Thom posted a while back? Regards Donal -- |
Self-tending jibs
"Capt.American" wrote in message m... "Donal" wrote in message ... "N1EE" wrote in message om... What are the advantages and disadvantages of a self-tending jib? Are you referring to self-tacking jobs? What rig design makes these most effective? I'd assume that threy need to be fractional to work at all. Do you know of any production sloops designed with a self tending jib? Dehler 41. A very nice boat indeed. I was overtaken by one during the Round the Island race about 4 years ago. Hahahahaha~ bets that happens often on your boat. It's such a rare event that I can clearly remember both the occasions when it happened! The only thing that I don't like about the current Dehlers is the enormous steering wheel. I worry about what would happen in an emergency if there were only two people aboard. What! What does the size of the wheel have to do with 2 people?. Are you like a keystone cops?. Do you run into your wheel in excitement? You have to leave the cockpit to get around the wheel on a Dehler 41. Sailing tip for Donal: If you move you hand towards the center of the steering wheel(Helm) and use the spokes you can steer faster. Thanks for that useful tip. However, I have a *proper* steering system - a tiller! Regards Donal -- |
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