Self-tending jibs
 

A very nice boat indeed. I was overtaken by one during the Round the
Island race about 4 years ago.

Hahahahaha~ bets that happens often on your boat.

It's such a rare event that I can clearly remember both the occasions when
it happened!

Probably the only two times you were actually sailing it!

Bwahahahahaha!

RB

Self-tending jibs
 

"Donal" wrote:
"Frank Maier" wrote:
"Donal" wrote:
"N1EE" wrote:
...snip...
It should be easy for one person to steer it.

True, but it would be difficult for that person to go forward in a
hurry.
They would have to climb up on to the sidedecks. As my kids are
reaching
the age where they might soon fly the nest, I am looking at boats with a
view to sailing them two handed.
...snip...

Well, I'm not familar with the Dehler line; ...snip...
Could you expand on having to go forward "in a hurry"?

I was thinking of going into the cockpit in a hurry, rather than going
forward onto the bow.
There are occasions when the main doesn't go up smoothly ... or perhaps when
trimming a cruising chute, ... even dumping the main in a hurry .....
I dunno, unexpected things happen on boats. My wife is not physically big,
and I don't like the idea of not being able to get there immediately.
I suppose that there is also another issue. I know many people whose
wives (occasionaly husbands) won't go sailing with them in anything but the
gentlest weather. ie motorsailing. I'm lucky that my wife will come
sailing with me when I say it's OK. It isn't her hobby, so if I want her to
come sailing, then I have to make sure that she enjoys it in a risk free
environment. That means that I have to be able to reach her before she gets
injured. So, that's why I don't like the idea of a big wheel.
Don't get me wrong, my wife isn't a wimp. She is excellent crew. It's
just that I know too many people who put their wives off sailing by taking
them out in innappropriate conditions. I even know one guy who had to sell
his boat!

Gotcha. You're comment is that the wheel is so big that it traps the
helmsman at his station and restricts him from moving forward *in the
cockpit*. That would be a PITA. So wouldn't it be a fairly inexpensive
solution to refit a smaller diameter wheel, if you like everything
else about the boat?

Unlike some Alpha males in the world of sailing, I agree with you
about working with your spouse. I love my wife; and if she's not
having fun, I'm not having fun. The kids, too. Frankly, it always
saddens me to see a 250 lb. guy at the wheel yelling at his 120 lb.
wife who's up on the pitching bow trying to manhandle a CQR which
weighs 1/3 of her total body mass. Ask her if she's enoying her sail!
The vast majority of the time when we're doing something "busy"
(raising sail, anchoring, gybing), my wife is at the helm and I do the
grunt work.

Not that I'm 250 or that she's 120! But that division of labor seems
to work for us.

Frank

Self-tending jibs
 

Donal declared: =20

-- I know too many people who put their wives off sailing by taking
them out in innappropriate conditions. =20

hat kind of wimpy-butted wives are those? Inappropriate conditions? =
Good grief...either you sail or you don't. Doesn't matter one iota =
whether you're a man or a woman. Inappropriate conditions...my =
hiney....Donal, sometimes I really worry about you.
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

Self-tending jibs
 

Maybe he's talking about having lots of nude female models onboard....

"katysails" wrote in message
...
Donal declared:

-- I know too many people who put their wives off sailing by taking
them out in innappropriate conditions.

hat kind of wimpy-butted wives are those? Inappropriate conditions? Good
grief...either you sail or you don't. Doesn't matter one iota whether
you're a man or a woman. Inappropriate conditions...my hiney....Donal,
sometimes I really worry about you.
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

Self-tending jibs
 

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
A very nice boat indeed. I was overtaken by one during the Round the
Island race about 4 years ago.

Hahahahaha~ bets that happens often on your boat.

It's such a rare event that I can clearly remember both the occasions when
it happened!

Probably the only two times you were actually sailing it!


That's not a proper insult!

You used to be better than this. Perhaps you should try a course of
vitamins!



Regards

Donal
--

Self-tending jibs
 

You used to be better than this.

Why bother? You bite a bare hook!

Bwahahahaaha!

RB

Self-tending jibs
 

Donal,

I have a wide wheel on my outside helm in a "T" shaped cockpit. I very
seldom sail from behind the wheel! The joy of the big wheel is sailing
it from inside the cockpit with my crew/guests while forward of the
wheel. With the large wheel it is the logical location to sail it from.
Even more so when single-O. The only time I go behind the wheel, is to
make room when there is a crowd. Even then if it is people I've sailed
with, one of the crew will slide around and sit on the stern seats.

Ole Thom

Self-tending jibs
 

When running the self-tending jib with the large staysail, how does one
tack the staysail? I'm sure I've seen them run at the same time, I just
cant figure out how they tack the staysail without rolling it up each
time to get it on the other side of the jib.

Just wondering?

I think the Island Packets (larger ones) all come with the Hoyt
self-tending jib/ staysail setup.

-Grouchee

Thom Stewart wrote:
OK Bart,

I'll take a crack at the Self-tending jibs.
I do believe (I could be wrong) these jibs were used to reduce the size
of the Catboats sail.

The work boats, before the use of the gasoline engines, were single sail
vessels for ease of handling when used by water-men working by
themselves. An example would be the New England Catboat. As they got up
in size, the sail size became a problem. This was in the days of Gaff
Rigs.( the Marconni Rig didn't appear until after the advent of the
trans-Atlantic Radio antennas) The single sail's weakness grew. Two
heavy booms, weather helm/ with barn door rubber, increased beams to
maintain heeling and shallow draft.

These were the problems the were solved by the Jib ( The Friendship
Sloop) It allowed and increase in sail area without increasing the
main. Also, eased the pressure on the weather helm ( Rudder size)

As a working boat the extra lines for the jib weren't a welcome addition
to the Lobsterman, so the self-tending jib solved that problem. If the
mast was cantered back a little the boat would still turn into the wind
and wait as the traps were tended with hands off the helm.

This made a handy rig and was adopted by the day sailer design. That is
where, today you are likely to find the rig. In the knock abouts day
sailors.

Advantage; Increased sail area, less pressure aloft, Only one line to
trim and tack, Reduced beam, smaller rudders, Less crowded cockpits

Disadvantage; Size limit on jib (100%) A complicated foredeck

Ole Thom

Self-tending jibs
 

While I've seen cutter rigs with the inner jib self-tacking (usually a club-foot
stays'l) I've never seen the outer jib self-tacking.



"Grouch" wrote in message
...
When running the self-tending jib with the large staysail, how does one
tack the staysail? I'm sure I've seen them run at the same time, I just
cant figure out how they tack the staysail without rolling it up each
time to get it on the other side of the jib.

Just wondering?

I think the Island Packets (larger ones) all come with the Hoyt
self-tending jib/ staysail setup.

-Grouchee

Thom Stewart wrote:
OK Bart,

I'll take a crack at the Self-tending jibs.
I do believe (I could be wrong) these jibs were used to reduce the size
of the Catboats sail.

The work boats, before the use of the gasoline engines, were single sail
vessels for ease of handling when used by water-men working by
themselves. An example would be the New England Catboat. As they got up
in size, the sail size became a problem. This was in the days of Gaff
Rigs.( the Marconni Rig didn't appear until after the advent of the
trans-Atlantic Radio antennas) The single sail's weakness grew. Two
heavy booms, weather helm/ with barn door rubber, increased beams to
maintain heeling and shallow draft.

These were the problems the were solved by the Jib ( The Friendship
Sloop) It allowed and increase in sail area without increasing the
main. Also, eased the pressure on the weather helm ( Rudder size)

As a working boat the extra lines for the jib weren't a welcome addition
to the Lobsterman, so the self-tending jib solved that problem. If the
mast was cantered back a little the boat would still turn into the wind
and wait as the traps were tended with hands off the helm.

This made a handy rig and was adopted by the day sailer design. That is
where, today you are likely to find the rig. In the knock abouts day
sailors.

Advantage; Increased sail area, less pressure aloft, Only one line to
trim and tack, Reduced beam, smaller rudders, Less crowded cockpits

Disadvantage; Size limit on jib (100%) A complicated foredeck

Ole Thom

Self-tending jibs
 

The "staysail is the "inner" sail..... There are no self tacking genoas that
I know of. You don't run or unfurl the gen when using a "self-tending"
staysail.

CM

"Grouch" wrote in message
...
| When running the self-tending jib with the large staysail, how does one
| tack the staysail? I'm sure I've seen them run at the same time, I just
| cant figure out how they tack the staysail without rolling it up each
| time to get it on the other side of the jib.
|
| Just wondering?
|
| I think the Island Packets (larger ones) all come with the Hoyt
| self-tending jib/ staysail setup.
|
| -Grouchee
|
| Thom Stewart wrote:
| OK Bart,
|
| I'll take a crack at the Self-tending jibs.
| I do believe (I could be wrong) these jibs were used to reduce the size
| of the Catboats sail.
|
| The work boats, before the use of the gasoline engines, were single sail
| vessels for ease of handling when used by water-men working by
| themselves. An example would be the New England Catboat. As they got up
| in size, the sail size became a problem. This was in the days of Gaff
| Rigs.( the Marconni Rig didn't appear until after the advent of the
| trans-Atlantic Radio antennas) The single sail's weakness grew. Two
| heavy booms, weather helm/ with barn door rubber, increased beams to
| maintain heeling and shallow draft.
|
| These were the problems the were solved by the Jib ( The Friendship
| Sloop) It allowed and increase in sail area without increasing the
| main. Also, eased the pressure on the weather helm ( Rudder size)
|
| As a working boat the extra lines for the jib weren't a welcome addition
| to the Lobsterman, so the self-tending jib solved that problem. If the
| mast was cantered back a little the boat would still turn into the wind
| and wait as the traps were tended with hands off the helm.
|
| This made a handy rig and was adopted by the day sailer design. That is
| where, today you are likely to find the rig. In the knock abouts day
| sailors.
|
| Advantage; Increased sail area, less pressure aloft, Only one line to
| trim and tack, Reduced beam, smaller rudders, Less crowded cockpits
|
| Disadvantage; Size limit on jib (100%) A complicated foredeck
|
| Ole Thom
|
|

Self-tending jibs
 

Grouch.

When running a Staysail with a Jib, the Jib is not self-tending. The
staysail is the self-tending sail.

The Jib is flown from the head stay and the Staysail is flown on a inner
stay. This inner stay is shorter and the sail is shorter ( A staysail)
This is the sail that is often set self-tending. The tack of this sail
is located back from the stem and is usually set to make the inner stay
parallel to the forestay. That sets the peak of the stay at the location
on the mast at about the spreader, at the location of the lower shrouds.
This is to keep the Mast in Rig. If it creates unwanted Mast bend it
will require back stays. A PITA!!

A Jib can be flown and tacked thru the space between the head stay and
the Jack stay ( Staysail) Just have to run the Jib sheet forward of the
inner stay. Make sure you let enough sheet out when tacking and head off
enough for the wind to blow the sail thru or have some one there to hand
it thru.

Mooron says you don't fly the two together but that isn't true. Some
people can sail with the staysail working in the slot and get a gain
from it. I'm not one of them. I've never been able to keep the air flow
clean with a sail in the slot.

That is the big reason I sail a Sloop rather than a Cutter.

Ole Thom

Self-tending jibs
 

Grouchee,

Jut re-read your post. Never sailed a Hoyt Self tending Jib but that off
batten seem flexible enough to pass thru the opening of the inner stay.

I'm sorry about that, I was thinking of sheeting set-up on the deck.

You know I bet I could work that set-up. Don't think I would want to. I
Like my Jenny and my Drifter, both with over 50% overlap.

Some one else will have to answer your post about the Hoyt self tending.

Ole Thom

Self-tending jibs
 

I confused the staysail with the genoa. I agree there are no self
tacking outer foresail. It wouldn't be feasable.

But look at this pic from Island Packet Yachts website of one of their
380s (Man those 380, 420, and 485 are NICE!) under sail with two
foresails. I just don't see being able to tack the outer masthead
forsail with the self-tending staysail in the way.

www.ipy.com/Graphics/IP380.gif

I also remember reading about Beth Leonard using a dual foresail
configuration on "Hawk", her earlier vessel. I don't believe she used a
self tending inner sail, but it would still be in the way when coming
about. She wrote that in some seas and air that she'd use only the 2
foresails to create a comfortable ride.

I just want to know the proceedure for coming about with both foresails
on. I do see how nice it would be to have the self-tending sail when
beating in a tight channel, though!!!

Capt. Mooron wrote:
The "staysail is the "inner" sail..... There are no self tacking genoas that
I know of. You don't run or unfurl the gen when using a "self-tending"
staysail.

CM

"Grouch" wrote in message
...
| When running the self-tending jib with the large staysail, how does one
| tack the staysail? I'm sure I've seen them run at the same time, I just
| cant figure out how they tack the staysail without rolling it up each
| time to get it on the other side of the jib.
|
| Just wondering?
|
| I think the Island Packets (larger ones) all come with the Hoyt
| self-tending jib/ staysail setup.
|
| -Grouchee
|
| Thom Stewart wrote:
| OK Bart,
|
| I'll take a crack at the Self-tending jibs.
| I do believe (I could be wrong) these jibs were used to reduce the size
| of the Catboats sail.
|
| The work boats, before the use of the gasoline engines, were single sail
| vessels for ease of handling when used by water-men working by
| themselves. An example would be the New England Catboat. As they got up
| in size, the sail size became a problem. This was in the days of Gaff
| Rigs.( the Marconni Rig didn't appear until after the advent of the
| trans-Atlantic Radio antennas) The single sail's weakness grew. Two
| heavy booms, weather helm/ with barn door rubber, increased beams to
| maintain heeling and shallow draft.
|
| These were the problems the were solved by the Jib ( The Friendship
| Sloop) It allowed and increase in sail area without increasing the
| main. Also, eased the pressure on the weather helm ( Rudder size)
|
| As a working boat the extra lines for the jib weren't a welcome addition
| to the Lobsterman, so the self-tending jib solved that problem. If the
| mast was cantered back a little the boat would still turn into the wind
| and wait as the traps were tended with hands off the helm.
|
| This made a handy rig and was adopted by the day sailer design. That is
| where, today you are likely to find the rig. In the knock abouts day
| sailors.
|
| Advantage; Increased sail area, less pressure aloft, Only one line to
| trim and tack, Reduced beam, smaller rudders, Less crowded cockpits
|
| Disadvantage; Size limit on jib (100%) A complicated foredeck
|
| Ole Thom
|
|

Self-tending jibs
 

Thank you young man! So there is room to finese the jib through the
inner and outer stays. I keep on learning.

Hope things warm up early this year for you. My sister and BIL are
contemplating cruising up in your neck of the woods in a couple years
before heading to the tropics and hopefull meeting up with me. Wishfull
thinking.

60 degrees here in Dallas. Going sailing tomorrow and generally hang out
on the boat as much as possible.



Thom Stewart wrote:
Grouch.

When running a Staysail with a Jib, the Jib is not self-tending. The
staysail is the self-tending sail.

The Jib is flown from the head stay and the Staysail is flown on a inner
stay. This inner stay is shorter and the sail is shorter ( A staysail)
This is the sail that is often set self-tending. The tack of this sail
is located back from the stem and is usually set to make the inner stay
parallel to the forestay. That sets the peak of the stay at the location
on the mast at about the spreader, at the location of the lower shrouds.
This is to keep the Mast in Rig. If it creates unwanted Mast bend it
will require back stays. A PITA!!

A Jib can be flown and tacked thru the space between the head stay and
the Jack stay ( Staysail) Just have to run the Jib sheet forward of the
inner stay. Make sure you let enough sheet out when tacking and head off
enough for the wind to blow the sail thru or have some one there to hand
it thru.

Mooron says you don't fly the two together but that isn't true. Some
people can sail with the staysail working in the slot and get a gain
from it. I'm not one of them. I've never been able to keep the air flow
clean with a sail in the slot.

That is the big reason I sail a Sloop rather than a Cutter.

Ole Thom

Self-tending jibs
 

One way is to furl the genoa, tack, and unfurl on the new tack. You
can also roll it up only part way to have less sail passing through
the slot and then unroll on the new tack.

On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 22:16:55 GMT, Grouch
wrote:

Thank you young man! So there is room to finese the jib through the
inner and outer stays. I keep on learning.

Hope things warm up early this year for you. My sister and BIL are
contemplating cruising up in your neck of the woods in a couple years
before heading to the tropics and hopefull meeting up with me. Wishfull
thinking.

60 degrees here in Dallas. Going sailing tomorrow and generally hang out
on the boat as much as possible.



Thom Stewart wrote:
Grouch.

When running a Staysail with a Jib, the Jib is not self-tending. The
staysail is the self-tending sail.

The Jib is flown from the head stay and the Staysail is flown on a inner
stay. This inner stay is shorter and the sail is shorter ( A staysail)
This is the sail that is often set self-tending. The tack of this sail
is located back from the stem and is usually set to make the inner stay
parallel to the forestay. That sets the peak of the stay at the location
on the mast at about the spreader, at the location of the lower shrouds.
This is to keep the Mast in Rig. If it creates unwanted Mast bend it
will require back stays. A PITA!!

A Jib can be flown and tacked thru the space between the head stay and
the Jack stay ( Staysail) Just have to run the Jib sheet forward of the
inner stay. Make sure you let enough sheet out when tacking and head off
enough for the wind to blow the sail thru or have some one there to hand
it thru.

Mooron says you don't fly the two together but that isn't true. Some
people can sail with the staysail working in the slot and get a gain
from it. I'm not one of them. I've never been able to keep the air flow
clean with a sail in the slot.

That is the big reason I sail a Sloop rather than a Cutter.

Ole Thom

Self-tending jibs
 

It's really not an issue when under sail... you may have a bit more work
taking up the slack in the sheet in some configurations. I've never had a
problem when sailing cutter. Some folks opt to furl and unfurl rather than
draw the sheet over.

CM

"Grouch" wrote in message
...
| I confused the staysail with the genoa. I agree there are no self
| tacking outer foresail. It wouldn't be feasable.
|
| But look at this pic from Island Packet Yachts website of one of their
| 380s (Man those 380, 420, and 485 are NICE!) under sail with two
| foresails. I just don't see being able to tack the outer masthead
| forsail with the self-tending staysail in the way.
|
| www.ipy.com/Graphics/IP380.gif
|
| I also remember reading about Beth Leonard using a dual foresail
| configuration on "Hawk", her earlier vessel. I don't believe she used a
| self tending inner sail, but it would still be in the way when coming
| about. She wrote that in some seas and air that she'd use only the 2
| foresails to create a comfortable ride.
|
| I just want to know the proceedure for coming about with both foresails
| on. I do see how nice it would be to have the self-tending sail when
| beating in a tight channel, though!!!
|
| Capt. Mooron wrote:
| The "staysail is the "inner" sail..... There are no self tacking genoas
that
| I know of. You don't run or unfurl the gen when using a "self-tending"
| staysail.
|
| CM
|
| "Grouch" wrote in message
| ...
| | When running the self-tending jib with the large staysail, how does
one
| | tack the staysail? I'm sure I've seen them run at the same time, I
just
| | cant figure out how they tack the staysail without rolling it up each
| | time to get it on the other side of the jib.
| |
| | Just wondering?
| |
| | I think the Island Packets (larger ones) all come with the Hoyt
| | self-tending jib/ staysail setup.
| |
| | -Grouchee
| |
| | Thom Stewart wrote:
| | OK Bart,
| |
| | I'll take a crack at the Self-tending jibs.
| | I do believe (I could be wrong) these jibs were used to reduce the
size
| | of the Catboats sail.
| |
| | The work boats, before the use of the gasoline engines, were single
sail
| | vessels for ease of handling when used by water-men working by
| | themselves. An example would be the New England Catboat. As they got
up
| | in size, the sail size became a problem. This was in the days of
Gaff
| | Rigs.( the Marconni Rig didn't appear until after the advent of the
| | trans-Atlantic Radio antennas) The single sail's weakness grew. Two
| | heavy booms, weather helm/ with barn door rubber, increased beams to
| | maintain heeling and shallow draft.
| |
| | These were the problems the were solved by the Jib ( The Friendship
| | Sloop) It allowed and increase in sail area without increasing the
| | main. Also, eased the pressure on the weather helm ( Rudder size)
| |
| | As a working boat the extra lines for the jib weren't a welcome
addition
| | to the Lobsterman, so the self-tending jib solved that problem. If
the
| | mast was cantered back a little the boat would still turn into the
wind
| | and wait as the traps were tended with hands off the helm.
| |
| | This made a handy rig and was adopted by the day sailer design. That
is
| | where, today you are likely to find the rig. In the knock abouts day
| | sailors.
| |
| | Advantage; Increased sail area, less pressure aloft, Only one line
to
| | trim and tack, Reduced beam, smaller rudders, Less crowded cockpits
| |
| | Disadvantage; Size limit on jib (100%) A complicated foredeck
| |
| | Ole Thom
| |
| |
|
|
|

Self-tending jibs
 

Grouch,

I do believe Leonard flew twin head sails on Twin head stays. This is
often done by short handed cruiser instead of using Spinnakers. This is
usually done on down wind legs, with the clews each poled out on each
side. They can clip the clews together and actually work up wind but not
as good as a single sail. With twin head stays a sail can be lowered and
bagged on the stay and up wind can be worked with a single sail. When
down wind it can be simply hoist to a twin head sail again

Ole Thom
P/S I've done this on a single headstay. I've flown a 150% genny and a
160% drifter when I had hanked on sails, I alternated hanks. Worked OK.
Even not to bad up wind. I clipped the sheets together to make up for
the different lenght foot.

What a PITA taking them down. I was on the helm, my daughter was on the
pointy end. All I could see was Ass and elbows and mounds of sails.
Never done it again.

That was three boats ago. I've since been converted to furling head
sails. Have a 155% furler and a 170% drifter, which set free flying and
I've done it with them fairly successfully but the Cruising shoot, which
I have in a sock is easier and better.

Ole Thom