Grouch.

When running a Staysail with a Jib, the Jib is not self-tending. The
staysail is the self-tending sail.

The Jib is flown from the head stay and the Staysail is flown on a inner
stay. This inner stay is shorter and the sail is shorter ( A staysail)
This is the sail that is often set self-tending. The tack of this sail
is located back from the stem and is usually set to make the inner stay
parallel to the forestay. That sets the peak of the stay at the location
on the mast at about the spreader, at the location of the lower shrouds.
This is to keep the Mast in Rig. If it creates unwanted Mast bend it
will require back stays. A PITA!!

A Jib can be flown and tacked thru the space between the head stay and
the Jack stay ( Staysail) Just have to run the Jib sheet forward of the
inner stay. Make sure you let enough sheet out when tacking and head off
enough for the wind to blow the sail thru or have some one there to hand
it thru.

Mooron says you don't fly the two together but that isn't true. Some
people can sail with the staysail working in the slot and get a gain
from it. I'm not one of them. I've never been able to keep the air flow
clean with a sail in the slot.

That is the big reason I sail a Sloop rather than a Cutter.

Ole Thom

Grouchee,

Jut re-read your post. Never sailed a Hoyt Self tending Jib but that off
batten seem flexible enough to pass thru the opening of the inner stay.

I'm sorry about that, I was thinking of sheeting set-up on the deck.

You know I bet I could work that set-up. Don't think I would want to. I
Like my Jenny and my Drifter, both with over 50% overlap.

Some one else will have to answer your post about the Hoyt self tending.

Ole Thom

I confused the staysail with the genoa. I agree there are no self
tacking outer foresail. It wouldn't be feasable.

But look at this pic from Island Packet Yachts website of one of their
380s (Man those 380, 420, and 485 are NICE!) under sail with two
foresails. I just don't see being able to tack the outer masthead
forsail with the self-tending staysail in the way.

www.ipy.com/Graphics/IP380.gif

I also remember reading about Beth Leonard using a dual foresail
configuration on "Hawk", her earlier vessel. I don't believe she used a
self tending inner sail, but it would still be in the way when coming
about. She wrote that in some seas and air that she'd use only the 2
foresails to create a comfortable ride.

I just want to know the proceedure for coming about with both foresails
on. I do see how nice it would be to have the self-tending sail when
beating in a tight channel, though!!!

Capt. Mooron wrote:
The "staysail is the "inner" sail..... There are no self tacking genoas that
I know of. You don't run or unfurl the gen when using a "self-tending"
staysail.

CM

"Grouch" wrote in message
...
| When running the self-tending jib with the large staysail, how does one
| tack the staysail? I'm sure I've seen them run at the same time, I just
| cant figure out how they tack the staysail without rolling it up each
| time to get it on the other side of the jib.
|
| Just wondering?
|
| I think the Island Packets (larger ones) all come with the Hoyt
| self-tending jib/ staysail setup.
|
| -Grouchee
|
| Thom Stewart wrote:
| OK Bart,
|
| I'll take a crack at the Self-tending jibs.
| I do believe (I could be wrong) these jibs were used to reduce the size
| of the Catboats sail.
|
| The work boats, before the use of the gasoline engines, were single sail
| vessels for ease of handling when used by water-men working by
| themselves. An example would be the New England Catboat. As they got up
| in size, the sail size became a problem. This was in the days of Gaff
| Rigs.( the Marconni Rig didn't appear until after the advent of the
| trans-Atlantic Radio antennas) The single sail's weakness grew. Two
| heavy booms, weather helm/ with barn door rubber, increased beams to
| maintain heeling and shallow draft.
|
| These were the problems the were solved by the Jib ( The Friendship
| Sloop) It allowed and increase in sail area without increasing the
| main. Also, eased the pressure on the weather helm ( Rudder size)
|
| As a working boat the extra lines for the jib weren't a welcome addition
| to the Lobsterman, so the self-tending jib solved that problem. If the
| mast was cantered back a little the boat would still turn into the wind
| and wait as the traps were tended with hands off the helm.
|
| This made a handy rig and was adopted by the day sailer design. That is
| where, today you are likely to find the rig. In the knock abouts day
| sailors.
|
| Advantage; Increased sail area, less pressure aloft, Only one line to
| trim and tack, Reduced beam, smaller rudders, Less crowded cockpits
|
| Disadvantage; Size limit on jib (100%) A complicated foredeck
|
| Ole Thom
|
|

Thank you young man! So there is room to finese the jib through the
inner and outer stays. I keep on learning.

Hope things warm up early this year for you. My sister and BIL are
contemplating cruising up in your neck of the woods in a couple years
before heading to the tropics and hopefull meeting up with me. Wishfull
thinking.

60 degrees here in Dallas. Going sailing tomorrow and generally hang out
on the boat as much as possible.



Thom Stewart wrote:
Grouch.

When running a Staysail with a Jib, the Jib is not self-tending. The
staysail is the self-tending sail.

The Jib is flown from the head stay and the Staysail is flown on a inner
stay. This inner stay is shorter and the sail is shorter ( A staysail)
This is the sail that is often set self-tending. The tack of this sail
is located back from the stem and is usually set to make the inner stay
parallel to the forestay. That sets the peak of the stay at the location
on the mast at about the spreader, at the location of the lower shrouds.
This is to keep the Mast in Rig. If it creates unwanted Mast bend it
will require back stays. A PITA!!

A Jib can be flown and tacked thru the space between the head stay and
the Jack stay ( Staysail) Just have to run the Jib sheet forward of the
inner stay. Make sure you let enough sheet out when tacking and head off
enough for the wind to blow the sail thru or have some one there to hand
it thru.

Mooron says you don't fly the two together but that isn't true. Some
people can sail with the staysail working in the slot and get a gain
from it. I'm not one of them. I've never been able to keep the air flow
clean with a sail in the slot.

That is the big reason I sail a Sloop rather than a Cutter.

Ole Thom

One way is to furl the genoa, tack, and unfurl on the new tack. You
can also roll it up only part way to have less sail passing through
the slot and then unroll on the new tack.

On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 22:16:55 GMT, Grouch
wrote:

Thank you young man! So there is room to finese the jib through the
inner and outer stays. I keep on learning.

Hope things warm up early this year for you. My sister and BIL are
contemplating cruising up in your neck of the woods in a couple years
before heading to the tropics and hopefull meeting up with me. Wishfull
thinking.

60 degrees here in Dallas. Going sailing tomorrow and generally hang out
on the boat as much as possible.



Thom Stewart wrote:
Grouch.

When running a Staysail with a Jib, the Jib is not self-tending. The
staysail is the self-tending sail.

The Jib is flown from the head stay and the Staysail is flown on a inner
stay. This inner stay is shorter and the sail is shorter ( A staysail)
This is the sail that is often set self-tending. The tack of this sail
is located back from the stem and is usually set to make the inner stay
parallel to the forestay. That sets the peak of the stay at the location
on the mast at about the spreader, at the location of the lower shrouds.
This is to keep the Mast in Rig. If it creates unwanted Mast bend it
will require back stays. A PITA!!

A Jib can be flown and tacked thru the space between the head stay and
the Jack stay ( Staysail) Just have to run the Jib sheet forward of the
inner stay. Make sure you let enough sheet out when tacking and head off
enough for the wind to blow the sail thru or have some one there to hand
it thru.

Mooron says you don't fly the two together but that isn't true. Some
people can sail with the staysail working in the slot and get a gain
from it. I'm not one of them. I've never been able to keep the air flow
clean with a sail in the slot.

That is the big reason I sail a Sloop rather than a Cutter.

Ole Thom

It's really not an issue when under sail... you may have a bit more work
taking up the slack in the sheet in some configurations. I've never had a
problem when sailing cutter. Some folks opt to furl and unfurl rather than
draw the sheet over.

CM

"Grouch" wrote in message
...
| I confused the staysail with the genoa. I agree there are no self
| tacking outer foresail. It wouldn't be feasable.
|
| But look at this pic from Island Packet Yachts website of one of their
| 380s (Man those 380, 420, and 485 are NICE!) under sail with two
| foresails. I just don't see being able to tack the outer masthead
| forsail with the self-tending staysail in the way.
|
| www.ipy.com/Graphics/IP380.gif
|
| I also remember reading about Beth Leonard using a dual foresail
| configuration on "Hawk", her earlier vessel. I don't believe she used a
| self tending inner sail, but it would still be in the way when coming
| about. She wrote that in some seas and air that she'd use only the 2
| foresails to create a comfortable ride.
|
| I just want to know the proceedure for coming about with both foresails
| on. I do see how nice it would be to have the self-tending sail when
| beating in a tight channel, though!!!
|
| Capt. Mooron wrote:
| The "staysail is the "inner" sail..... There are no self tacking genoas
that
| I know of. You don't run or unfurl the gen when using a "self-tending"
| staysail.
|
| CM
|
| "Grouch" wrote in message
| ...
| | When running the self-tending jib with the large staysail, how does
one
| | tack the staysail? I'm sure I've seen them run at the same time, I
just
| | cant figure out how they tack the staysail without rolling it up each
| | time to get it on the other side of the jib.
| |
| | Just wondering?
| |
| | I think the Island Packets (larger ones) all come with the Hoyt
| | self-tending jib/ staysail setup.
| |
| | -Grouchee
| |
| | Thom Stewart wrote:
| | OK Bart,
| |
| | I'll take a crack at the Self-tending jibs.
| | I do believe (I could be wrong) these jibs were used to reduce the
size
| | of the Catboats sail.
| |
| | The work boats, before the use of the gasoline engines, were single
sail
| | vessels for ease of handling when used by water-men working by
| | themselves. An example would be the New England Catboat. As they got
up
| | in size, the sail size became a problem. This was in the days of
Gaff
| | Rigs.( the Marconni Rig didn't appear until after the advent of the
| | trans-Atlantic Radio antennas) The single sail's weakness grew. Two
| | heavy booms, weather helm/ with barn door rubber, increased beams to
| | maintain heeling and shallow draft.
| |
| | These were the problems the were solved by the Jib ( The Friendship
| | Sloop) It allowed and increase in sail area without increasing the
| | main. Also, eased the pressure on the weather helm ( Rudder size)
| |
| | As a working boat the extra lines for the jib weren't a welcome
addition
| | to the Lobsterman, so the self-tending jib solved that problem. If
the
| | mast was cantered back a little the boat would still turn into the
wind
| | and wait as the traps were tended with hands off the helm.
| |
| | This made a handy rig and was adopted by the day sailer design. That
is
| | where, today you are likely to find the rig. In the knock abouts day
| | sailors.
| |
| | Advantage; Increased sail area, less pressure aloft, Only one line
to
| | trim and tack, Reduced beam, smaller rudders, Less crowded cockpits
| |
| | Disadvantage; Size limit on jib (100%) A complicated foredeck
| |
| | Ole Thom
| |
| |
|
|
|

Grouch,

I do believe Leonard flew twin head sails on Twin head stays. This is
often done by short handed cruiser instead of using Spinnakers. This is
usually done on down wind legs, with the clews each poled out on each
side. They can clip the clews together and actually work up wind but not
as good as a single sail. With twin head stays a sail can be lowered and
bagged on the stay and up wind can be worked with a single sail. When
down wind it can be simply hoist to a twin head sail again

Ole Thom
P/S I've done this on a single headstay. I've flown a 150% genny and a
160% drifter when I had hanked on sails, I alternated hanks. Worked OK.
Even not to bad up wind. I clipped the sheets together to make up for
the different lenght foot.

What a PITA taking them down. I was on the helm, my daughter was on the
pointy end. All I could see was Ass and elbows and mounds of sails.
Never done it again.

That was three boats ago. I've since been converted to furling head
sails. Have a 155% furler and a 170% drifter, which set free flying and
I've done it with them fairly successfully but the Cruising shoot, which
I have in a sock is easier and better.

Ole Thom