"Jeff Morris" wrote:
"Frank Maier" wrote:
I'm a fan of Garry Hoyt's Cat-sloop Freedom rig. The big, large-roach
main helps offset the limitations of the limited-size jib.

Freedom, although it doesn't seem that they're really "in production"
anymore. Don't some Island Packets use a Hoyt self-tending,
self-vanging jib?

They're certainly still in business, but all of their new designs are
powerboats. This seems to be the current trend.

Well, there's just so much more possibility for profit to be made from
powerboat sales. Plus, in the specific instance of Freedom, I'd hafta
guess that the concept just never caught on well enought to create a
solid market demand or niche. (I'm completely ignorant about business
and marketing; so forgive my naive conceptualizations.)

You can still order a boat from them. Their newest ("current")
designs, the Pedrick 35 and 40, are still nominally unstayed cat rigs;
but they're offered with running backs so you can skip the (small)
self-tending jib in favor of overlapping headsails. Harrumphf! Might
as well buy a Catalina.

Frank

You"ve sailed a self tender, how did you like it?

On your freedom, it worked very well. That particular day we were treated to
very constant strong breeze. I'd be interested to see how well it works in
other conditions...light stuff.


RB

"Frank Maier" wrote in message
om...
Plus, in the specific instance of Freedom, I'd hafta
guess that the concept just never caught on well enought to create a
solid market demand or niche. (I'm completely ignorant about business
and marketing; so forgive my naive conceptualizations.)

They've sold 1300 of them so far, that at least qualifies as a "niche." Nonsuch
is another builder that went the "easy tacking" route and sold 1000 high quality
boats. Toward the end the new management was trying to "upgrade" the boats by
putting in more modern, but cheaper liners; when I suggested that it seemed like
a rather arbitrary change, they told me that they had to do something to make
them look different because everyone that wanted one of the older designs
already had one. An interesting marketing point, but they only got the chance
to build a few before going under. The molds were saved and several are built
each year on a custom basis.

The builder of my boat (PDQ) has been making three power-cats for every sailboat
for the last year. They stopped building the smaller 32 unless they have orders
for 2 at a time because the profit margin is too low to do a quality job on a
one'sy. However, at Annapolis they took orders for 5 of the new 44 foot
sailboats - an awesome boat because its designed as a family cruiser, not a
charter condomaran.

OK Bart,

I'll take a crack at the Self-tending jibs.
I do believe (I could be wrong) these jibs were used to reduce the size
of the Catboats sail.

The work boats, before the use of the gasoline engines, were single sail
vessels for ease of handling when used by water-men working by
themselves. An example would be the New England Catboat. As they got up
in size, the sail size became a problem. This was in the days of Gaff
Rigs.( the Marconni Rig didn't appear until after the advent of the
trans-Atlantic Radio antennas) The single sail's weakness grew. Two
heavy booms, weather helm/ with barn door rubber, increased beams to
maintain heeling and shallow draft.

These were the problems the were solved by the Jib ( The Friendship
Sloop) It allowed and increase in sail area without increasing the
main. Also, eased the pressure on the weather helm ( Rudder size)

As a working boat the extra lines for the jib weren't a welcome addition
to the Lobsterman, so the self-tending jib solved that problem. If the
mast was cantered back a little the boat would still turn into the wind
and wait as the traps were tended with hands off the helm.

This made a handy rig and was adopted by the day sailer design. That is
where, today you are likely to find the rig. In the knock abouts day
sailors.

Advantage; Increased sail area, less pressure aloft, Only one line to
trim and tack, Reduced beam, smaller rudders, Less crowded cockpits

Disadvantage; Size limit on jib (100%) A complicated foredeck

Ole Thom

Donal wrote:



My wife tends to enjoy the destinations a bit more than the trips. In fact,
she enjoys the trips where there is so little wind that we have to use the
engine. [sigh].


Hmmm.. sounds like my wife, doesn't like it when the boat does that tippy thing!

We got out for a while in her brothers power cruiser in a good blow last summer,
damn near needed a kidney transplant after, but now she likes the sailboat a lot
more.

Now if I could just get her to keep quiet when the news is on......

Cheers
Marty

"Donal" wrote:
"N1EE" wrote:
....snip...
It should be easy for one person to steer it.

True, but it would be difficult for that person to go forward in a hurry.
They would have to climb up on to the sidedecks. As my kids are reaching
the age where they might soon fly the nest, I am looking at boats with a
view to sailing them two handed.
....snip...

Well, I'm not familar with the Dehler line; but I have a generic
response to this comment. A self-tending jib is so small that it's
good for most wind conditions, right up to the point where you simply
need to douse it. There's usually no need to go forward "in a hurry."
Pretty much no need to go forward at all. If you have single-line
reefing for the main as well, you can pretty much single-hand without
ever leaving the cockpit. So, unless I'm not understanding your
comment, it's really kinda moot.

Could you expand on having to go forward "in a hurry"?

I have a downhaul for the jib on my F36. It's only 190 sf. and
douses itself to the foredeck and stays contained in the worst
conditions I've ever sailed in. Reef the main first, let the jib
provide drive for control, douse the jib if needed. All from the
cockpit and single handed. Sweet.

On 12 Jan 2004 14:27:34 -0800, (Frank Maier) wrote:

"Donal" wrote:
"N1EE" wrote:
...snip...
It should be easy for one person to steer it.

True, but it would be difficult for that person to go forward in a hurry.
They would have to climb up on to the sidedecks. As my kids are reaching
the age where they might soon fly the nest, I am looking at boats with a
view to sailing them two handed.
...snip...

Well, I'm not familar with the Dehler line; but I have a generic
response to this comment. A self-tending jib is so small that it's
good for most wind conditions, right up to the point where you simply
need to douse it. There's usually no need to go forward "in a hurry."
Pretty much no need to go forward at all. If you have single-line
reefing for the main as well, you can pretty much single-hand without
ever leaving the cockpit. So, unless I'm not understanding your
comment, it's really kinda moot.

Could you expand on having to go forward "in a hurry"?

Downhauls are the way to go for jibs. I use my on the
SF bay all the time. It's nice to be able to dowse the
jib without going forward, especially on a small boat.

"Marc" wrote in message
...
I have a downhaul for the jib on my F36. It's only 190 sf. and
douses itself to the foredeck and stays contained in the worst
conditions I've ever sailed in. Reef the main first, let the jib
provide drive for control, douse the jib if needed. All from the
cockpit and single handed. Sweet.

On 12 Jan 2004 14:27:34 -0800, (Frank Maier) wrote:

"Donal" wrote:
"N1EE" wrote:
...snip...
It should be easy for one person to steer it.

True, but it would be difficult for that person to go forward in a
hurry.
They would have to climb up on to the sidedecks. As my kids are
reaching
the age where they might soon fly the nest, I am looking at boats with
a
view to sailing them two handed.
...snip...

Well, I'm not familar with the Dehler line; but I have a generic
response to this comment. A self-tending jib is so small that it's
good for most wind conditions, right up to the point where you simply
need to douse it. There's usually no need to go forward "in a hurry."
Pretty much no need to go forward at all. If you have single-line
reefing for the main as well, you can pretty much single-hand without
ever leaving the cockpit. So, unless I'm not understanding your
comment, it's really kinda moot.

Could you expand on having to go forward "in a hurry"?

"Frank Maier" wrote in message
om...
"Donal" wrote:
"N1EE" wrote:
...snip...
It should be easy for one person to steer it.

True, but it would be difficult for that person to go forward in a
hurry.
They would have to climb up on to the sidedecks. As my kids are
reaching
the age where they might soon fly the nest, I am looking at boats with a
view to sailing them two handed.
...snip...

Well, I'm not familar with the Dehler line; but I have a generic
response to this comment. A self-tending jib is so small that it's
good for most wind conditions, right up to the point where you simply
need to douse it. There's usually no need to go forward "in a hurry."
Pretty much no need to go forward at all. If you have single-line
reefing for the main as well, you can pretty much single-hand without
ever leaving the cockpit. So, unless I'm not understanding your
comment, it's really kinda moot.

Could you expand on having to go forward "in a hurry"?

I was thinking of going into the cockpit in a hurry, rather than going
forward onto the bow.

There are occasions when the main doesn't go up smoothly ... or perhaps when
trimming a cruising chute, ... even dumping the main in a hurry .....


I dunno, unexpected things happen on boats. My wife is not physically big,
and I don't like the idea of not being able to get there immediately.

I suppose that there is also another issue. I know many people whose
wives (occasionaly husbands) won't go sailing with them in anything but the
gentlest weather. ie motorsailing. I'm lucky that my wife will come
sailing with me when I say it's OK. It isn't her hobby, so if I want her to
come sailing, then I have to make sure that she enjoys it in a risk free
environment. That means that I have to be able to reach her before she gets
injured. So, that's why I don't like the idea of a big wheel.

Don't get me wrong, my wife isn't a wimp. She is excellent crew. It's
just that I know too many people who put their wives off sailing by taking
them out in innappropriate conditions. I even know one guy who had to sell
his boat!


Regards


Donal
--

"Martin Baxter" wrote in message
...
Donal wrote:



My wife tends to enjoy the destinations a bit more than the trips. In
fact,
she enjoys the trips where there is so little wind that we have to use
the
engine. [sigh].


Hmmm.. sounds like my wife, doesn't like it when the boat does that tippy
thing!

We got out for a while in her brothers power cruiser in a good blow last
summer,
damn near needed a kidney transplant after, but now she likes the sailboat
a lot
more.

That's why I changed from power to sail.


Now if I could just get her to keep quiet when the news is on......

heh hehWife swapping would be a complete waste of time for us.


Regards


Donal
--