Rigging Question
 

What's the best cotter pin type to secure
a turnbuckle?

Bart Senior

Rigging Question
 

What's the best cotter pin type to secure
a turnbuckle?

Gadzooks!


RB

Rigging Question
 

N1EE wrote:

What's the best cotter pin type to secure
a turnbuckle?

I like to use an oversized ring type cotter pin. They still have to be
taped over (it's a commonly heard myth that cotter rings won't snag
lines) but they are easier to use and have longer useful life. Some
people I sail with use safety-pin style cotter pins. These are fine
but I think they are more obtrusive.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Rigging Question
 

I don't like the ring type. They have a propensity to get loose, and if the
tape comes off, it'll happen faster than the straight ones that you bend
both ends to use.

"DSK" wrote in message
...
N1EE wrote:

What's the best cotter pin type to secure
a turnbuckle?

I like to use an oversized ring type cotter pin. They still have to be
taped over (it's a commonly heard myth that cotter rings won't snag
lines) but they are easier to use and have longer useful life. Some
people I sail with use safety-pin style cotter pins. These are fine
but I think they are more obtrusive.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Rigging Question
 

Bart,

I do believe there is only one type of cotter pin. If however you're
going to be doing a lot of tuning on a turnbuckle a "split O" ring is a
better choice. It doesn't deform, tear sails, hook sheets, etc.

Bart, I keep my tension gauge in a cloth bag, with a roll of rigging
tape and assortment of cotter pins. There is nothing easier to install
than a new cotter pin and when its ends are bent over and the turn
buckle taped it is a better set-up

OT

Rigging Question
 

ya don't know do ya.
"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
What's the best cotter pin type to secure
a turnbuckle?

Gadzooks!


RB

Rigging Question
 

We use ring and tape. too. Aside from the fact that the rings don't =
work themselves out or snap off, you also don't get gouged in the ankle =
by a bent over cotter pin on the way by. BTW, bobbypins can be used as =
SHORT TERM emergency voter pins if you're in a real crunch...just =
remember to replace them...they rust through very quickly and won't take =
a lot of load for a lonmg period of time. They are stronger than =
paperclips, though.

--=20
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

Rigging Question
 

"DSK" wrote in message

N1EE wrote:

What's the best cotter pin type to secure
a turnbuckle?

I like to use an oversized ring type cotter pin. They still have to be
taped over (it's a commonly heard myth that cotter rings won't snag
lines) but they are easier to use and have longer useful life. Some
people I sail with use safety-pin style cotter pins. These are fine
but I think they are more obtrusive.

Agreed. Rings can be placed or removed without tools, whereas the split
cotter pins can't.

Max

PS--Doug: Do you live in NC? If so, where? Or at least from what port do
you sail?

Rigging Question
 

Maxprop wrote:


Agreed. Rings can be placed or removed without tools, whereas the split
cotter pins can't.

Depends on how desperate you are. Adrenalin can do amazing things.



PS--Doug: Do you live in NC?

Yes, in fact I was born & raised in NC although I have not lived here
continuously.

If so, where?

Directly above the worlds largest deposit of red clay ;)
Another answer is "too far inland."

Or at least from what port do
you sail?

We keep our big boat in New Bern, I see you're currently in Oriental.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Rigging Question
 

Why would you not carry a simple tool to do that?

I don't recommend rings. They *do* snag lines and when
they do, they're apt to get pulled out enough to finally
finish the job on their own. Straight cotter pins if put in
correctly will not come out and won't snag with or without
tape.

"Maxprop" wrote in message
link.net...

"DSK" wrote in message

N1EE wrote:

What's the best cotter pin type to secure
a turnbuckle?

I like to use an oversized ring type cotter pin. They still have to be
taped over (it's a commonly heard myth that cotter rings won't snag
lines) but they are easier to use and have longer useful life. Some
people I sail with use safety-pin style cotter pins. These are fine
but I think they are more obtrusive.

Agreed. Rings can be placed or removed without tools, whereas the split
cotter pins can't.

Max

PS--Doug: Do you live in NC? If so, where? Or at least from what port
do
you sail?

Rigging Question
 

They will work themselves out if the tape comes off and if a line gets
snagged
and gets them to the inner ring (for lack of a better term for it). I've
seen it happen.
If the straight cotter is done properly, there is no way you're going to
gouge yourself
on it. Also, it will have tape, just like the ring.

"katysails" wrote in message
...
We use ring and tape. too. Aside from the fact that the rings don't work
themselves out or snap off, you also don't get gouged in the ankle by a bent
over cotter pin on the way by. BTW, bobbypins can be used as SHORT TERM
emergency voter pins if you're in a real crunch...just remember to replace
them...they rust through very quickly and won't take a lot of load for a
lonmg period of time. They are stronger than paperclips, though.

--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

Rigging Question
 

I'll go out on a limb ... Why do they need securing?

I'm really not advocating this, but ...

When I bought my current boat I went to the factory for a week of acceptance
tests, commissioning, etc. The boat was all rigged for us, but there were no
cotter pins installed. They explained that as soon as we left, the mast would
be pulled for the delivery down the Erie Canal, and there was no need to install
the cotter pins for just a few day sails. I was skeptical, and checked every
turnbuckle morning, noon, and night but of course, there was no movement at all.

I've also wondered if both ends of the turnbuckle need a pin - for it to turn,
the stay must twist. I hard to see how it could loosen more than a quarter
turn.

As I say, I'm not advocating never using pins, and all of my stay have split
pins, but I'm not sure losing one pin is an immediate crisis.

On the other hand, as an ex-dinghy sailor whose boats were rigged with clevis
and ring pins, I can say its rather unnerving to find a ring-ding in the bilge!



"N1EE" wrote in message
om...
What's the best cotter pin type to secure
a turnbuckle?

Bart Senior

Rigging Question
 

I have a small coil of monel wire that I can use for emergency cotter
pins (mostly because the spares have 'disappeared' from the small parts
drawer). In fact, just a couple of weeks ago I noticed the mainsheet
cotter had gone and wound the wire through 3 times and twisted closed to
act as a cotter... What puzzles me is how the hell did the old SS cotter
disappear. it was correctly set -I had replaced it two years ago when
servicing the traveler.

Cheers MC

katysails wrote:

We use ring and tape. too. Aside from the fact that the rings don't work themselves out or snap off, you also don't get gouged in the ankle by a bent over cotter pin on the way by. BTW, bobbypins can be used as SHORT TERM emergency voter pins if you're in a real crunch...just remember to replace them...they rust through very quickly and won't take a lot of load for a lonmg period of time. They are stronger than paperclips, though.

Rigging Question
 

Bil said: All competent (and even most incompetent) sailors have proper =
tools
available.=20

Yes, but diving to the bottom of the slip to retrieve them can be a real =
hassle, especially when some here carry so much body fat that getting to =
the bottom is almost an impossibility.

--=20
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

Rigging Question
 

Jon argued: =20
They will work themselves out if the tape comes off and if a line gets
snagged
and gets them to the inner ring=20

I disagree. Don't you keep watch on your tape and make sure it's not =
unraveling? Also, what is this about ropes and lines shagging them? If =
they're taped down, why would a rope or line do that? In over 25 years =
of sailing, I've never seen that happen, and I have been gouged by =
straight cotter pins...
--=20
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

Rigging Question
 

How? If they're curled properly, they shouldn't snag your ankle. Also, they
should be taped too! Goes both ways....

"katysails" wrote in message
...
Jon argued:
They will work themselves out if the tape comes off and if a line gets
snagged
and gets them to the inner ring

I disagree. Don't you keep watch on your tape and make sure it's not
unraveling? Also, what is this about ropes and lines shagging them? If
they're taped down, why would a rope or line do that? In over 25 years of
sailing, I've never seen that happen, and I have been gouged by straight
cotter pins...
--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

Rigging Question
 

You should have a backup for stuff like this.

"katysails" wrote in message
...
Bil said: All competent (and even most incompetent) sailors have proper
tools
available.

Yes, but diving to the bottom of the slip to retrieve them can be a real
hassle, especially when some here carry so much body fat that getting to the
bottom is almost an impossibility.

--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

Rigging Question
 

Curled? What do you mean?

Cheers MC

Jonathan Ganz wrote:

How? If they're curled properly, they shouldn't snag your ankle. Also, they
should be taped too! Goes both ways....

Rigging Question
 

The cotter pins... I guess I meant bent not curled.

"MC" wrote in message
...
Curled? What do you mean?

Cheers MC

Jonathan Ganz wrote:

How? If they're curled properly, they shouldn't snag your ankle. Also,
they
should be taped too! Goes both ways....

Rigging Question
 

"katysails" wrote in message ...
We use ring and tape. too. Aside from the fact that the rings don't
work themselves out or snap off,

Wanna Bet? I had one work out a few months ago on my La Brisa.

Worked my butt off getting upwind all the way on the lake looking
forward to a sleigh ride down wind. On my last tack upwind lost the
mast due to one of those cruddy SS rings either working out or
snapping. I use them on my small boat because I remove them often, but
on RedCloud I use real cotter pins then i serve over the pins on and
the turn buckles... screw tape always wears out unravels rotts fades
ect......

joe



you also don't get gouged in the ankle
by a bent over cotter pin on the way by. BTW, bobbypins can be used as
SHORT TERM emergency voter pins if you're in a real crunch...just
remember to replace them...they rust through very quickly and won't take
a lot of load for a lonmg period of time. They are stronger than
paperclips, though.

Rigging Question
 

"DSK" wrote in message

Maxprop wrote:


Agreed. Rings can be placed or removed without tools, whereas the split
cotter pins can't.

Depends on how desperate you are. Adrenalin can do amazing things.



PS--Doug: Do you live in NC?

Yes, in fact I was born & raised in NC although I have not lived here
continuously.

If so, where?

Directly above the worlds largest deposit of red clay ;)
Another answer is "too far inland."

Or at least from what port do
you sail?

We keep our big boat in New Bern, I see you're currently in Oriental.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Wish we were currently in Oriental.

We live in Indiana, actually. December was our first visit to NC, Oriental
specifically, where we bought some property on the Neuse just outside of
town.

New Bern, eh? Fascinating town. Capt. Ratty's is a favorite--had the best
mussels I've ever eaten there. The server was amused by Midwesterners
raving about seafood which is as common as dirt there.

Max

Rigging Question
 

wrote in message

On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 12:43:29 GMT, "Maxprop"
wrote:


Agreed. Rings can be placed or removed without tools, whereas the split
cotter pins can't.


All competent (and even most incompetent) sailors have proper tools
available.

A $0.50 ring causes far less anguish than a $15.00 pair of needlenose when
both/either go overboard. (Spoken from experience.)

Max

Rigging Question
 

wrote in message

On Wed, 7 Jan 2004 18:52:26 -0500, "katysails"

wrote:

Bil said: All competent (and even most incompetent) sailors have proper
tools
available.

Yes, but diving to the bottom of the slip to retrieve them can be a real
hassle, especially when some here carry so much body fat that getting to the
bottom is almost an impossibility.

Speak for yourself!

Knowing Kathy, I think she must have been speaking on your behalf. She
ain't chubby.

Max

Rigging Question
 

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message


Why would you not carry a simple tool to do that?

See other posts. I've grown tired of needlessly dropping tools overboard.
Rings are cheap.

I don't recommend rings. They *do* snag lines and when
they do, they're apt to get pulled out enough to finally
finish the job on their own.

Not if you tape them, same as with pins.

Straight cotter pins if put in
correctly will not come out and won't snag with or without
tape.

Um, where are your turnbuckles? On the house roof? Experience: when the
tape chafes through, the bent-over pin ends begin snagging sheets again,
just as they would have done had they not been wrapped. No problem so far
with rings.

Max

"Maxprop" wrote in message

"DSK" wrote in message

N1EE wrote:

What's the best cotter pin type to secure
a turnbuckle?

I like to use an oversized ring type cotter pin. They still have to be
taped over (it's a commonly heard myth that cotter rings won't snag
lines) but they are easier to use and have longer useful life. Some
people I sail with use safety-pin style cotter pins. These are fine
but I think they are more obtrusive.

Agreed. Rings can be placed or removed without tools, whereas the split
cotter pins can't.

Max

PS--Doug: Do you live in NC? If so, where? Or at least from what port
do
you sail?

Rigging Question
 

"katysails" wrote in message
Don't you keep watch on your tape and make sure it's not unraveling?

(sheepish grin) Um, no, apparently.

Max

Rigging Question
 

"MC" wrote in message

Curled? What do you mean?

Curling iron. $5.95 at Wal-Mart.

Max

Rigging Question
 

Oops, I wanted to start a new thread!

(N1EE) wrote

What's the best cotter pin type to secure
a turnbuckle?

Bart Senior

Rigging Question
 

Like you Doug, I prefer the bigger ringy-ding
type to the normal cotter pin.

However, I have never been satisfied with
either normal cotter pin or ringy-dings type
of cotter-pin for turnbuckles.

Last year I rigged and taped nine boats. I would
use the larger ringy-ding type and tape them. And
I hated dealing with them.

I've been thinking about finding a better solution
to this issue since last spring.

I recently I came across this reference on
"Turnbuckle Stud Cotter Pins" and wanted to see if
anyone else was using this method, and thought it
might be a good topic.

It is such a great method, and yet I've never
seen anyone using it. I'm going to make up a bunch
of these next year.


******************************************
Source: Tracy, "Better Boat" Vol 9, pg 13.

Turnbuckle-stud cotter pins are tough to install,
because you have to bend them back so far to keep
them from gouging passersby. And even then you
have to tape over the ends. A much cleaner method
involves stainless steeel TIG (tungsten inert gas)
welding rod. Its a flux-free stainless rod. Ask
for 1/16 or 3/32-inch (1.6 mm or 2.4 mm) diameter
(depending on the turnbuckle size) heliarc welding
rod, type 304 or 316. To make a TIG cotter, bend
one end of the rod to get and "L' shape. The bar
of the L needs to be about 1-1/2 inches longer than
the diameter of the turnbuckle stud. Insert the bar
into the top cotter hole, mark where the rod passes
the bottom cotter hole, then take the rod out and
bend it at the mark. Cut the lower leg so it's the
same length as the upper, making a "C" shape, then
file any sharp edges off. To install the cotter,
insert the "C" into the cotter holes. Using a pair
of pliers, bend the tips of the rods 90 degrees
towards each other. Finish by bending the rods
together at the studs, so the end roll inside, out
of traffic. No tape is needed--and they look great.


***********************
End of Quote.


------
| _|
|
|
|
| _
| |
------

I tried to sketch the shape above. The idea is one of
these TIG fabricated cotter-pins replaces two normal
or two ringy-ding cotter pins and does not protrude
outside the turnbuckle.

I like the fact idea very much. However, I wonder if
it still might be wise to tape off the turnbuckle to
prevent snags around the threaded part of the turnbuckle.
If you often need to add and subtract pre-bend to your
rig for heavy and light air, then tape would just get
in the way.

I also like turnbuckles with lock nuts. But it is
expensive to change over from one type to the other.
I've used these lock-nut type turnbuckles without tape,
and while dousing, I've torn many spinnakers when it
was unclear how it happened. I suspect in some cases
these spinnakers snagged on the exposed threaded portion
of a shroud turnbuckle.

Some one-design boats use brackets to secure a pair of
turnbuckles together. I like the fact these can be
released and adjusted quickly, but wonder if they would
tend to snag a spinnaker also. Has anyone used these?

Bart Senior


DSK wrote

N1EE wrote:

What's the best cotter pin type to secure
a turnbuckle?

I like to use an oversized ring type cotter pin. They still have to be
taped over (it's a commonly heard myth that cotter rings won't snag
lines) but they are easier to use and have longer useful life. Some
people I sail with use safety-pin style cotter pins. These are fine
but I think they are more obtrusive.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Rigging Question
 

Jon said:
If they're curled properly...

Ring's go on properly the first time....

--=20
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

Rigging Question
 

Jon said: You should have a backup for stuff like this.

I do...it was a joke....

--=20
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

Rigging Question
 

Bill incorrectly surmises:=20
Aren't you the one who carelessly drops her tools overboard?

No...I was making an observation about my experiences with other =
sailor's over the years. =20
--=20
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

Rigging Question
 

Joe complained:=20
screw tape always wears out unravels rotts fades


That's why you're supposed to perform regular MAINTENANCE..so you catch =
these things before they happen.
--=20
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

Rigging Question
 

Mad admitted:=20
Don't you keep watch on your tape and make sure it's not unraveling?

(sheepish grin) Um, no, apparently.

I'll send you a roll of duct tape for next season...that way you won't =
have to check it but once a decade....snort
--=20
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

Rigging Question
 

I'm sorry, but you're not allowed to joke. :-)

"katysails" wrote in message
...
Jon said: You should have a backup for stuff like this.

I do...it was a joke....

--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

Rigging Question
 

Put it on a lanyard before you use it. I lost one screw driver and a drill
bit over the side. Everything else was tied on before I started.

"Maxprop" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message


Why would you not carry a simple tool to do that?

See other posts. I've grown tired of needlessly dropping tools overboard.
Rings are cheap.

I don't recommend rings. They *do* snag lines and when
they do, they're apt to get pulled out enough to finally
finish the job on their own.

Not if you tape them, same as with pins.

Straight cotter pins if put in
correctly will not come out and won't snag with or without
tape.

Um, where are your turnbuckles? On the house roof? Experience: when the
tape chafes through, the bent-over pin ends begin snagging sheets again,
just as they would have done had they not been wrapped. No problem so far
with rings.

Max

"Maxprop" wrote in message

"DSK" wrote in message

N1EE wrote:

What's the best cotter pin type to secure
a turnbuckle?

I like to use an oversized ring type cotter pin. They still have to
be
taped over (it's a commonly heard myth that cotter rings won't snag
lines) but they are easier to use and have longer useful life. Some
people I sail with use safety-pin style cotter pins. These are fine
but I think they are more obtrusive.

Agreed. Rings can be placed or removed without tools, whereas the
split
cotter pins can't.

Max

PS--Doug: Do you live in NC? If so, where? Or at least from what
port
do
you sail?

Rigging Question
 

Something you're quite familiar with I'm sure!

"Maxprop" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"MC" wrote in message

Curled? What do you mean?

Curling iron. $5.95 at Wal-Mart.

Max

Rigging Question
 

Jon instructed: I'm sorry, but you're not allowed to joke. :-)

Oh? Wellll.......you'd better allow me to joke....I could become =
dangerous...


--=20
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

Rigging Question
 

wrote in message
On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 04:33:11 GMT, "Maxprop"
wrote:


wrote in message

On Wed, 7 Jan 2004 18:52:26 -0500, "katysails"

wrote:

Bil said: All competent (and even most incompetent) sailors have
proper
tools
available.

Yes, but diving to the bottom of the slip to retrieve them can be a
real
hassle, especially when some here carry so much body fat that getting to
the
bottom is almost an impossibility.

Speak for yourself!

Knowing Kathy, I think she must have been speaking on your behalf. She
ain't chubby.


We've all seen her picture on her website. She's either chubby or it
was a fish-eye lens on the camera.

Photos can be deceiving. I haven't seen her for about a year, but she
wasn't overweight then, at least.

Max

Rigging Question
 

"katysails" wrote in message

Mad admitted:
Don't you keep watch on your tape and make sure it's not unraveling?

(sheepish grin) Um, no, apparently.

I'll send you a roll of duct tape for next season...that way you won't have
to check it but once a decade....snort

What? You DO check it more than once a decade??

Max

Rigging Question
 

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message

Something you're quite familiar with I'm sure!

"Maxprop" wrote in message
"MC" wrote in message

Curled? What do you mean?

Curling iron. $5.95 at Wal-Mart.

Having a wife and daughter, yes.

Oh, that's not what you were implying, right?

Max