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Professional Courtesy and Respect?
Simple Simon wrote:
This is a talent NEVER developed by those who sit isolated in a pilot house on the bridge. Nil, what are you doing in a thread labeled "Professional Courtesy and Respect?" As your last post clearly shows, you are not a professional, you exhibit no signs of courtesy, and you certainly have not earned the respect of any professional mariner. You are an occasionally amusing irritant to those who seek nautical information in this forum, otherwise you are nothing but a partially skilled amateur, nibbling, like a parrotfish, at the reef of skills and knowledge you will never digest. Rick |
Professional Courtesy and Respect?
"Rick" wrote in message ink.net... Simple Simon wrote: This is a talent NEVER developed by those who sit isolated in a pilot house on the bridge. Nil, what are you doing in a thread labeled "Professional Courtesy and Respect?" Pay attention, Rick! I STARTED the thread! S.Simon |
Professional Courtesy and Respect?
Simple Simon wrote:
Pay attention, Rick! I STARTED the thread! I know. That only makes it more absurd. Rick |
Professional Courtesy and Respect?
Absurd, Neal... it fits.
"Rick" wrote in message ink.net... Simple Simon wrote: Pay attention, Rick! I STARTED the thread! I know. That only makes it more absurd. Rick |
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From: "Simple Simon" It's called 'extrapolation' (look it up!). It's obvious you have never exercised your brain and extrapolated anything. This is a talent that is highly developed in a real sailboat skipper. A small sailboat almost becomes like an arm or a leg. It becomes an extension of one's body and one can use input from the way it moves, the heel, the roll, the sound of the water past the hull, the sound of the wind, etc. to extrapolate course and speed. If done regularly it becomes second nature. Most any competent sailboat skipper can do dead reckoning for long periods of time using nothing but his senses even if he is below most of the time. From what I understood Donal to say, the person taking the test, is in an enclosed space with no visual references and possibly muted noise, for the entire time ..... not at all what you are describing. What you describe is normal DR-ing, done by all, whether it be power, sail, open cockpit or closed wheelhouse. I once deduced my course so accurately and made corrections as I went along only by dead reckoning alone that after a passage of 18 hours from Beaufort N.C. I dead-centered the ship channel through Frying Pan Shoals at dawn - came close to hitting the sea buoy as a matter of fact after ducking below to make coffee and emerging to look over the bow at it. This is a talent NEVER developed by those who sit isolated in a pilot house on the bridge. S.Simon G Once again, your lack of experience is showing. It's still and continues to be obvious, that you have no conception of what goes on, onboard any type of vessel, other than your own, and that you have little ability to relate that experience to other circumstances, other than your own. Shen |
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"Simple Simon" wrote in message news:
Can't even spell Cajun. I can spell it : Coonass Joe S.Simon |
Professional Courtesy and Respect?
"Simple Simon" wrote in message ... "Rick" wrote in message ink.net... Nil, what are you doing in a thread labeled "Professional Courtesy and Respect?" Pay attention, Rick! I STARTED the thread! That *is* a very good answer. ...... Thank God that nobody has ever managed to deliver such a mortal blow to me! Regards Donal -- |
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"Joe" wrote in message om... "Donal" wrote in message ... "Joe" wrote in message om... What about 20 knots on a pitch black dark night, guess thats unsafe to. A yacht's lights are easier to see on a pitch black night than on a moonlit night. However, in thick fog, you can't see anything! What about a tree trunk the size of a car? Any running lights on it, How about a bouy, not all are lit. Hows about the typical weekend warrior who forgot to turn on his running lights, hows about a rocky jettie, how about a tow line and the million other things you can not see on a pitch black night? Are you really claiming that it is easy to avoid hitting a tree trunk at 25 kts? Are you saying that you think that it is easier to miss a buoy at 25 kts than at 4 kts?? Pull the other one, Joe -- I put some bells on it, just for you. That is really scary! To a lubber like you I imagine it is. Bet you would **** your pants if you ever landed on a airplane in the fog two. But 100's of them do it every day. Well, these days it is easy to land a plane. They land themselves. Fog has nothing at all to do with landing a modern aircraft. Regards Donal -- |
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"Joe" wrote in message m... (Roy G. Biv) wrote in message news Yeah, I recall a ferry smashing into the dock in the clear daylight not so long ago in NY. Accidents happen. They failed to maintain a proper lookout with radar. Has nothing to do with safe speed, the jerk you talked about most likely would of ran someone over at 3 knots. Are you claiming that you can maintain a proper lookout with radar alone? Regards Donal -- |
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"Simple Simon" wrote in message ...
Joe, You're always in a fog. Not so! But if I were, I could still do a job. Unlike you and Donal. My boat would be employed while your would be let go first. I would study and perfect my skills at getting the job done safely, while you would be dead in the water afraid to move. Joe S.Simon "Joe" wrote in message om... "Donal" wrote in message ... "Joe" wrote in message om... "Simple Simon" wrote in message ... Donal was right. You failed to comply with the rule that states you must slow down to a safe speed in restricted visibility. 25 knots is not a safe speed in restricted visibility and is a direct violation of the Rules. Bull****. 20 knots in fog using the proper aids to navigation is not unsafe. Think Radar! Think Radio! What about 20 knots on a pitch black dark night, guess thats unsafe to. A yacht's lights are easier to see on a pitch black night than on a moonlit night. However, in thick fog, you can't see anything! What about a tree trunk the size of a car? Any running lights on it, How about a bouy, not all are lit. Hows about the typical weekend warrior who forgot to turn on his running lights, hows about a rocky jettie, how about a tow line and the million other things you can not see on a pitch black night? I got news for you Neal, real captains do it all the time. That is really scary! To a lubber like you I imagine it is. Bet you would **** your pants if you ever landed on a airplane in the fog two. But 100's of them do it every day. Regards, Joe Regards Donal -- |
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Hey Donal ..... he's not a "yachtie"
Hey Joe ..... There's a big difference between yachts and workboats and their operation. You're trying to argue a totally different "mind set" and it doesn't work. In the end, you're both generally correct, but for different reasons. otn Donal wrote: "Joe" wrote in message om... "Donal" wrote in message ... "Joe" wrote in message e.com... What about 20 knots on a pitch black dark night, guess thats unsafe to. A yacht's lights are easier to see on a pitch black night than on a moonlit night. However, in thick fog, you can't see anything! What about a tree trunk the size of a car? Any running lights on it, How about a bouy, not all are lit. Hows about the typical weekend warrior who forgot to turn on his running lights, hows about a rocky jettie, how about a tow line and the million other things you can not see on a pitch black night? Are you really claiming that it is easy to avoid hitting a tree trunk at 25 kts? Are you saying that you think that it is easier to miss a buoy at 25 kts than at 4 kts?? Pull the other one, Joe -- I put some bells on it, just for you. That is really scary! To a lubber like you I imagine it is. Bet you would **** your pants if you ever landed on a airplane in the fog two. But 100's of them do it every day. Well, these days it is easy to land a plane. They land themselves. Fog has nothing at all to do with landing a modern aircraft. Regards Donal -- |
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"Donal" wrote in message ...
"Joe" wrote in message m... (Roy G. Biv) wrote in message news Yeah, I recall a ferry smashing into the dock in the clear daylight not so long ago in NY. Accidents happen. They failed to maintain a proper lookout with radar. Has nothing to do with safe speed, the jerk you talked about most likely would of ran someone over at 3 knots. Are you claiming that you can maintain a proper lookout with radar alone? Thats what I'm claiming Donal. I would not suggest it running a strange river for the first time, but if you have navigated the same area many times and you know it like the back of your hand then you can safely run it with a quality fine tuned radar. I've done it a thousand times. Nothing to it. If it's fog bound in an area I'm not familiar with I usually wait and follow someone that knows the area. You are the perfect example of the weekend warrior that has no clue. Take you boat out every day for a year and study every dock, bend,tank, slip, strem,ect on your radar, add those details to your charts, including the names of every dock. Study your local area and you will be able to do the same without a problem. Joe Regards Donal -- |
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"Donal" wrote in message ...
"Joe" wrote in message om... "Donal" wrote in message ... "Joe" wrote in message om... What about 20 knots on a pitch black dark night, guess thats unsafe to. A yacht's lights are easier to see on a pitch black night than on a moonlit night. However, in thick fog, you can't see anything! What about a tree trunk the size of a car? Any running lights on it, How about a bouy, not all are lit. Hows about the typical weekend warrior who forgot to turn on his running lights, hows about a rocky jettie, how about a tow line and the million other things you can not see on a pitch black night? Are you really claiming that it is easy to avoid hitting a tree trunk at 25 kts? Yes, if you see it on radar a mile ahead of you, its not a problem. I will admit Ive struck enough submerged logs the the owner of one crewboat I ran hung so many destroyed propellers on his beach house that he named it the broken wheel ranch. Thats just part of the job and should be expected on a high speed boat running the rivers of LA. Are you saying that you think that it is easier to miss a buoy at 25 kts than at 4 kts?? Its very easy to miss a bouy if you can see it on radar, and most bouys and day shapes are designed to be seen on radar, big suprise huh? If you get really good at radar you learn the ranges for the ports you run. We had color radars on the MV Comet I ran and you could assign diffrent colors for the height of objects. So lining up the ranges was a piece of cake. You do know what range marker are huh? Also when you came into a big field full of rigs you knew by the color assigned to the rig and knew which one you should be going to. Pull the other one, Joe -- I put some bells on it, just for you. That is really scary! To a lubber like you I imagine it is. Bet you would **** your pants if you ever landed on a airplane in the fog two. But 100's of them do it every day. Well, these days it is easy to land a plane. They land themselves. Fog has nothing at all to do with landing a modern aircraft. Same thing on a modern vessel, I quit working boats 10+ years ago Donal and with the advancement of things like radar,FLIR and gps plotters it got to be a 100 times easier today. Joe Regards Donal -- |
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"Joe" wrote in message om... "Donal" wrote in message ... No, no, no...... You have to guess your position without *any* aids. Oh OK. Sorta like Physic viewing. ****...... if I could do that I'd be working for the CIA. Hmmmm. Now I think that I understand your dependance on radar. You don't know how to navigate without high-tech aids, do you? Thats the answer.... Lets hire a Yachtsmaster to find Ossama. Could an average yachtmaster do any worse than GWB? Regards Donal -- |
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"Joe" wrote in message om... "Donal" wrote in message ... "Joe" wrote in message om... Yes we have col regs and I obeyed them. Why do you ask. Is it because of the speed we were running? Yes! I cannot imagine a vessel that needs 25 kts to maintain steerage. has nothing to do with steerage dufass, it's about doing a job. Airplanes land in fog today, ships run in it and they are able to do it thru the miracle of radar. You do not pass at full speed, you do not meet other vessels at full speed. You talk to everyone your going to meet if you can by radio. Nothing magic about it, just plain commen sence. The job can be done safely. Just because you and Capt. Neal lack the skill, will not make the facts different. Well, .... common sense suggests to me that your radar cannot see below your bow. Common sense also suggests that, in a river, boats could come out from the side, suddenly. Common sense tells me that doing 25 kts in fog is stupid. Regards Donal -- |
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Donal wrote:
Common sense tells me that doing 25 kts in fog is stupid. http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/group...504230-07.hcsp http://www.shipownersclub.com/losspr...asia/39495.htm Its Joes license at stake, the acceptable risk is his to bear. We have similar issues in the keys running tourists to the reef: if the weather is borderline and we cancel we lose revenue to competion who will accept the risk. IF We don't run , we lose needed revenue to competition. Its the captians responsibility to assess weather for Each and Every trip. I have run plenty of trips where conditions were fine for sailing but not snorkelling and I have been quite clear to all passengers about the conditions and once I explain expected conditions its common for some to drop out, I would rather lose them upfront than have them go and not have a good time because it was too rough. People actually show up at the dock with winds @25knots expecting to go snorkelling in conditions reflected by postcard photographs.... I remember explaining to one family about the rough conditions over the phone, THEY WANTED TO GO. THEY DIDN'T CARE. When they showed up at the dock they hadn't mentioned their small kids or the pregnant wife in her 8&1/2 month. I thought these people were absolutely nuts and they were quite upset when I cancelled. |
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"Donal" wrote in message ...
" Well, .... common sense suggests to me that your radar cannot see below your bow. Your an idiot Donal, I can see everything in front of my bow, that why we usually mount radars at the top of the wheelhouse, true I might not see something 10 foot in front of the bow but I will know it's there because I saw it from a mile to 10 foot in front of the bow. Common sense also suggests that, in a river, boats could come out from the side, suddenly. Ever hear 4 or 5 detroit diesels running at full speed? you can hear them a mile away. Only problems I ever had were duck hunters that pulled flat bottom boats up on the bank. Some times they get upset by a wake. Most the locals and the guides know commerical boats run these rivers and expect huge wakes. And find protected places to pull the boats up. I sail near the Houston ship channel all the time. Several time I've been fog bound, I did not have radar at the time. Just got out of the channel and wated it out. But all the ships keep running at full speed and send huge wakes out of the channel. I know if Im near the channel these wake will come after the noise of the ship passing. It's one of those common sence things. Check out a coastal pilot for the Missippi delta area and you will see that they have thick fog around 110 days a year on average. Is all work suppose to stop? How long do you think you would stay employed for an oil company if you stopped every time fog blew in. You stop for 24 hours to wait out fog you cost your customer 45,000 dollars to 100,000 dollars depending on the rig. And the most expensive rigs are in the mississippi canyon area were the water is 1400 foot deep. The companies knew my boat would do the job. That whay I always worked the big money rigs like Bull Winkle. Why in the hell do you think radars are put on boats? Is it just a gadget to impress people like Bobspirt uses his? Or is it a tool to help you complete a task? Joe Common sense tells me that doing 25 kts in fog is stupid. Were back to the same thing Donal.Your just to stupid to understand it can be done safely. You have no pratical experience in doing it, and I guess until then you will never be able to comprehend. Regards Donal -- |
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(Roy G. Biv) wrote in message . com...
Donal wrote: Common sense tells me that doing 25 kts in fog is stupid. http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/group...504230-07.hcsp Good example of a major ****-up. If Donal paid attention he would of read that I never pass or overtake at full speed. And I always do everything I can to talk to the other vessel and make passing agreements. Even after talking I will creep pass the other vessel before getting back up on plane. These idiots assumed to much and paid for it. I always treat the other vesseel in fog like Donal is at the wheel and expect them to do something stupid. http://www.shipownersclub.com/losspr...asia/39495.htm Another great example of a **** up. Both had radars set at .75 miles moving at 30 knots. If donal read my post he would see that I set my radars at 1.5 miles and have well over 2 minutes to stop if I meet another crewboat doing 20 knots. And I have time to talk and AGREE on what whistle we are going to pass. Dont know if you remember Donal but I told a story here once about being on a 120 foot fully loaded crew boat named the Destiny doing over 20 knots that had a head on collision with another 110 foot crewboat named the Dare doing 20 knots empty. I was the relief skipper and in the bunk expecting to wake up and off load cargo at the rig and bring the boat back in. The show off asshole capt that was taking the boat out made a one whistle passing agreement with the inbound boat. My wife who was a deckhand at the time was seriously injured. Over 400 thousand dollars damage done to both boats. All because the asshole was trying to show off and roar pass another boat as it roared in. She said the last thing she saw before impact was a green light. I have seen first hand what can go wrong. But I also know it can be done safely. It's a serious business not for the meek, or the showoff. Joe MSV RedCloud Its Joes license at stake, the acceptable risk is his to bear. We have similar issues in the keys running tourists to the reef: if the weather is borderline and we cancel we lose revenue to competion who will accept the risk. IF We don't run , we lose needed revenue to competition. Its the captians responsibility to assess weather for Each and Every trip. I have run plenty of trips where conditions were fine for sailing but not snorkelling and I have been quite clear to all passengers about the conditions and once I explain expected conditions its common for some to drop out, I would rather lose them upfront than have them go and not have a good time because it was too rough. People actually show up at the dock with winds @25knots expecting to go snorkelling in conditions reflected by postcard photographs.... I remember explaining to one family about the rough conditions over the phone, THEY WANTED TO GO. THEY DIDN'T CARE. When they showed up at the dock they hadn't mentioned their small kids or the pregnant wife in her 8&1/2 month. I thought these people were absolutely nuts and they were quite upset when I cancelled. |
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Donal is right. I never leave the slip if there's even a hint of fog.
Or if fog is predicted. Or when rain is forecast. Or winds above 6 kts. RB |
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Joe wrote: (Roy G. Biv) wrote in message . com... Donal wrote: Common sense tells me that doing 25 kts in fog is stupid. http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/group...504230-07.hcsp Good example of a major ****-up. If Donal paid attention he would of read that I never pass or overtake at full speed. And I always do everything I can to talk to the other vessel and make passing agreements. Even after talking I will creep pass the other vessel before getting back up on plane. These idiots assumed to much and paid for it. I always treat the other vesseel in fog like Donal is at the wheel and expect them to do something stupid. http://www.shipownersclub.com/losspr...asia/39495.htm Another great example of a **** up. Both had radars set at .75 miles moving at 30 knots. If donal read my post he would see that I set my radars at 1.5 miles and have well over 2 minutes to stop if I meet another crewboat doing 20 knots. And I have time to talk and AGREE on what whistle we are going to pass. Depends on where you are and what your set-up is. If you are running HSC or the Miss., this would not be bad, especially if you only have one set. If you had two, for that type boat, depending on where you are, I might suggest one set at 3.0m and the other on 1.5 (scanning down on the 1.5m set, at times.) Once clear of the channel, into the Gulf, I'd probably kick one set up to 6.0m (at least) and the other to 3.0m (if only one set, 3.0m with kick ups to 6.0m)then scan the 3.0m set, down, on occasion. G Personal opinion .... On a ship, it would be totally different. For the average recreational boater, if you don't have to go in these conditions, don't .... if you get caught in them, slow WAY down, and take your time .... you're doing it for fun, not to make a living. otn |
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"Joe" wrote in message om... "Donal" wrote in message ... " Well, .... common sense suggests to me that your radar cannot see below your bow. Your an idiot Donal, I can see everything in front of my bow, that why we usually mount radars at the top of the wheelhouse, true I might not see something 10 foot in front of the bow but I will know it's there because I saw it from a mile to 10 foot in front of the bow. Do you place a lookout on the bow in restricted visibility? Common sense also suggests that, in a river, boats could come out from the side, suddenly. Ever hear 4 or 5 detroit diesels running at full speed? you can hear them a mile away. Only problems I ever had were duck hunters that pulled flat bottom boats up on the bank. Some times they get upset by a wake. Most the locals and the guides know commerical boats run these rivers and expect huge wakes. And find protected places to pull the boats up. So you rely on the fact that locals will recognise the sound of your engines?? I sail near the Houston ship channel all the time. Several time I've been fog bound, I did not have radar at the time. Just got out of the channel and wated it out. But all the ships keep running at full speed and send huge wakes out of the channel. I know if Im near the channel these wake will come after the noise of the ship passing. It's one of those common sence things. Check out a coastal pilot for the Missippi delta area and you will see that they have thick fog around 110 days a year on average. Is all work suppose to stop? No. The Coll Regs don't say that you have to *STOP*. However, they do say that you should proceed at a safe speed. I cannot see that 25 kts could be consifered a safe speed in fog. How long do you think you would stay employed for an oil company if you stopped every time fog blew in. It depends on whether the oil company believed that it is acceptable to observe the Coll Regs. You stop for 24 hours to wait out fog you cost your customer 45,000 dollars to 100,000 dollars depending on the rig. And the most expensive rigs are in the mississippi canyon area were the water is 1400 foot deep. The companies knew my boat would do the job. That whay I always worked the big money rigs like Bull Winkle. Aaaahhhhh! Now, I understand. .... Coll Regs have a price???? Why in the hell do you think radars are put on boats? Is it just a gadget to impress people like Bobspirt uses his? Or is it a tool to help you complete a task? Radar is a tool. However, Radar is only *one* tool. Regards Donal -- |
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So, it's OK to run over and kill people in
the name of making a living? I'd love to be in the courtroom when you spout that as a defense. S.Simon "otnmbrd" wrote in message nk.net... G Personal opinion .... On a ship, it would be totally different. For the average recreational boater, if you don't have to go in these conditions, don't .... if you get caught in them, slow WAY down, and take your time .... you're doing it for fun, not to make a living. otn |
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Donal wrote: "Joe" wrote in message om... "Donal" wrote in message ... " Well, .... common sense suggests to me that your radar cannot see below your bow. Your an idiot Donal, I can see everything in front of my bow, that why we usually mount radars at the top of the wheelhouse, true I might not see something 10 foot in front of the bow but I will know it's there because I saw it from a mile to 10 foot in front of the bow. No he's not, and no you can't, but considering the areas you are running, what you miss will normally not affect your operation .... you do take that chance, however. Do you place a lookout on the bow in restricted visibility? LOL He's on the bow, Donal .... the fact that he's in a wheelhouse, is immaterial. Common sense also suggests that, in a river, boats could come out from the side, suddenly. Ever hear 4 or 5 detroit diesels running at full speed? you can hear them a mile away. Only problems I ever had were duck hunters that pulled flat bottom boats up on the bank. Some times they get upset by a wake. Most the locals and the guides know commerical boats run these rivers and expect huge wakes. And find protected places to pull the boats up. So you rely on the fact that locals will recognise the sound of your engines?? Rely? I doubt it, but know that they will hear and understand it, yes ...... your point being? I sail near the Houston ship channel all the time. Several time I've been fog bound, I did not have radar at the time. Just got out of the channel and wated it out. But all the ships keep running at full speed and send huge wakes out of the channel. I know if Im near the channel these wake will come after the noise of the ship passing. It's one of those common sence things. Check out a coastal pilot for the Missippi delta area and you will see that they have thick fog around 110 days a year on average. Is all work suppose to stop? No. The Coll Regs don't say that you have to *STOP*. However, they do say that you should proceed at a safe speed. I cannot see that 25 kts could be consifered a safe speed in fog. \ For most recreational boaters, I wouldn't consider 3k to be a safe speed ( for Neal, anything above 1.0 k would be excessive), but for the guy/gal doing it, day in day out over the same route on the same boat, I would, with the understanding that sometimes, it wasn't. How long do you think you would stay employed for an oil company if you stopped every time fog blew in. It depends on whether the oil company believed that it is acceptable to observe the Coll Regs. LOL Don't be so naive. Most companies are run by accountants or engineers who have zero concern for anything but the bottom dollar. You stop for 24 hours to wait out fog you cost your customer 45,000 dollars to 100,000 dollars depending on the rig. And the most expensive rigs are in the mississippi canyon area were the water is 1400 foot deep. The companies knew my boat would do the job. That whay I always worked the big money rigs like Bull Winkle. Aaaahhhhh! Now, I understand. .... Coll Regs have a price???? LOL COLREGS may not have a price, but employment in different fields does!!! Once again, you both are arguing the same issue from different perspectives.....ain'tagonnawoik.... there's no excuse for a recreational boater to be running 25k in fog .... there's a valid reason for a commercial guy/gal to do so, but he/she needs to fully understand the consequences, and accept them. You also need to understand that for the average recreational boater to try to do so, is totally stupid, but for the commercial guy who is running constantly, day in and day out, it's a calculated risk. Why in the hell do you think radars are put on boats? Is it just a gadget to impress people like Bobspirt uses his? Or is it a tool to help you complete a task? Radar is a tool. However, Radar is only *one* tool. Regards Donal -- |
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Neal, you probably don't need to worry about that, since you
would likely be the dead party. "Simple Simon" wrote in message ... So, it's OK to run over and kill people in the name of making a living? I'd love to be in the courtroom when you spout that as a defense. S.Simon "otnmbrd" wrote in message nk.net... G Personal opinion .... On a ship, it would be totally different. For the average recreational boater, if you don't have to go in these conditions, don't .... if you get caught in them, slow WAY down, and take your time .... you're doing it for fun, not to make a living. otn |
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Are you inferring that professional captains in the Misisipi area are
transvestites or gay? Both? SV "otnmbrd" wrote ... but for the guy/gal doing it, day in day out for a commercial guy/gal to do so, but he/she needs to fully understand |
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"Donal" wrote in message ...
"Joe" wrote in message om... "Donal" wrote in message ... No, no, no...... You have to guess your position without *any* aids. Oh OK. Sorta like Physic viewing. ****...... if I could do that I'd be working for the CIA. Hmmmm. Now I think that I understand your dependance on radar. You don't know how to navigate without high-tech aids, do you? Its hard to dead reckon blind donal, I could do a DTS type fix using a compass, but how will you take in account set and drift without anything to take a fix on? BTW what type of licences do you hold? How many times have DRed in the fog? Tell us Donal, How can you fix your position with the windows blacked out, no gps, no loran, no chart no radar. OH Tell us O master navigator. Guess your gonna listen to the wave slapping on the hull and count the duration of each slap and figure your distance by counting waves huh? And on top of that your going to know when you turn by were the slapping occurs on the hull. or maybe the increadable Mr Limpid is going to guide you. Come on Supermariner fill us in on your increadable skills. Or maybe your internal gyro is going to kick in, Or maybe you have xray vision and can see thru the fog and hull. Perhaps it your crystal ball. Joe Amazed at Donals magical skills. Thats the answer.... Lets hire a Yachtsmaster to find Ossama. Could an average yachtmaster do any worse than GWB? Regards Donal -- |
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Typically, uninformed statement.
In answer to your question .... No. However, typically, commercial operators get caught in situations over which they have no control, and have to continue on (For instance, I've left the dock at Baton Rouge, La. and encountered fog shortly thereafter and had no choice but to continue downriver because there was no anchorage available.) or it's the nature of their business that they have to go in all conditions and try to maintain a semblance of a schedule .... which may mean that conditions will allow normal speeds, but generally means they will frequently be slowing and then speeding back up, or staying slow the whole way .... it's not a "yes or no" condition. Simple Simon wrote: So, it's OK to run over and kill people in the name of making a living? I'd love to be in the courtroom when you spout that as a defense. S.Simon "otnmbrd" wrote in message nk.net... G Personal opinion .... On a ship, it would be totally different. For the average recreational boater, if you don't have to go in these conditions, don't .... if you get caught in them, slow WAY down, and take your time .... you're doing it for fun, not to make a living. otn |
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otnmbrd wrote in message news:qxoIb.12432
Depends on where you are and what your set-up is. If you are running HSC or the Miss., this would not be bad, On the HSC you also have traffic control to advise you of any other traffic. especially if you only have one set. If you had two, for that type boat, depending on where you are, I might suggest one set at 3.0m and the other on 1.5 (scanning down on the 1.5m set, at times.) Most crew boats do have 2 radar sets, usually I have one on standby and just keep switching back and forth on the range selector. Keeps you from getting a sore neck and prevents you from missing something while moving from one display to the other, and on sunny days with thick fog I like to keep my face buried in the radars rubber hood/visor to keep from ruining your dark vision. Once clear of the channel, into the Gulf, I'd probably kick one set up to 6.0m (at least) and the other to 3.0m (if only one set, 3.0m with kick ups to 6.0m)then scan the 3.0m set, down, on occasion. Sounds about right. I worry more in open water than I do in the rivers or channels because of wave clutter. Plus offshore I'd set up a couple of range alarms. On the supply boat ive ran we had some nice setup's. Radar on each side of the wheel with one set that will rotate so the lookout can use it. We have contest all the time seeing who could pick up targets first and calucating there speed and courses, and CPA's. In heavy traffic areas we would wear the cursers out. G Personal opinion .... On a ship, it would be totally different. For the average recreational boater, if you don't have to go in these conditions, don't .... if you get caught in them, slow WAY down, and take your time .... you're doing it for fun, not to make a living. otn Do you have a radar endorsement? Joe MSV RedCloud |
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Capt. Otn,
It appears to me Joe is saying if it's a commercial venture and not recreational boating then it's OK to proceed in an unsafe manner while ignoring or bending the Rules of the Road as applicable to restricted visibility. It appears to me that you are agreeing with him. Appearances are sometimes misleading so I will give you the benefit of the doubt because no self-respecting, law abiding, USCG licensed Master would knowingly and proudly claim he either ignores or breaks specific COLREGS in the name of commerce. The COLREGS apply to all vessels - there is no distinction between commercial vessels and private vessels when it comes to operating in restricted visibility and to claim going 25 knots in restricted visibility in congested areas like the lower Mississippi and Gulf of Mexico is a safe and normal practice is to show ignorance of the law and a disregard for safety of life at sea. While you aren't saying this directly your agreeing with one who IS does not bode well for your common sense, education or professionalism. S.Simon "otnmbrd" wrote in message hlink.net... Typically, uninformed statement. In answer to your question .... No. However, typically, commercial operators get caught in situations over which they have no control, and have to continue on (For instance, I've left the dock at Baton Rouge, La. and encountered fog shortly thereafter and had no choice but to continue downriver because there was no anchorage available.) or it's the nature of their business that they have to go in all conditions and try to maintain a semblance of a schedule .... which may mean that conditions will allow normal speeds, but generally means they will frequently be slowing and then speeding back up, or staying slow the whole way .... it's not a "yes or no" condition. Simple Simon wrote: So, it's OK to run over and kill people in the name of making a living? I'd love to be in the courtroom when you spout that as a defense. S.Simon "otnmbrd" wrote in message nk.net... G Personal opinion .... On a ship, it would be totally different. For the average recreational boater, if you don't have to go in these conditions, don't .... if you get caught in them, slow WAY down, and take your time .... you're doing it for fun, not to make a living. otn |
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"Simple Simon" wrote in message ...
So, it's OK to run over and kill people in the name of making a living? I'd love to be in the courtroom when you spout that as a defense. S.Simon No it's not OK to run over and kill anyone. But most ships have radars that cost 10 times what your boat cost. They are excellent tools that you use with radios gps,s chart plotters ect that allow you to do a job safely, that can not be done on the adverage recreation craft. Plus Ships in a channel usually require pilots, guys that during an exam have to draw a chart of a ship channel and harbor from memeory including every aid to navigation, dock, ect. They have 100's if not thousands of trips in that local area. Tell me Neil, Do you have a radar endorsement on the back of your licences? How's about a radio endorsement? How's about any endorsements? Didn't think so. Your basic, and with your attitude you will stay a basic mariner, never a master mariner. Joe MSV RedCloud "otnmbrd" wrote in message nk.net... G Personal opinion .... On a ship, it would be totally different. For the average recreational boater, if you don't have to go in these conditions, don't .... if you get caught in them, slow WAY down, and take your time .... you're doing it for fun, not to make a living. otn |
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I don't care if you have the whole, God Damned,
Houston Space Center on the bridge of your ship. You are still in violation of Rule 19 and many of the Rules in Section 1. S.Simon "Joe" wrote in message om... "Simple Simon" wrote in message ... So, it's OK to run over and kill people in the name of making a living? I'd love to be in the courtroom when you spout that as a defense. S.Simon No it's not OK to run over and kill anyone. But most ships have radars that cost 10 times what your boat cost. They are excellent tools that you use with radios gps,s chart plotters ect that allow you to do a job safely, that can not be done on the adverage recreation craft. Plus Ships in a channel usually require pilots, guys that during an exam have to draw a chart of a ship channel and harbor from memeory including every aid to navigation, dock, ect. They have 100's if not thousands of trips in that local area. Tell me Neil, Do you have a radar endorsement on the back of your licences? How's about a radio endorsement? How's about any endorsements? Didn't think so. Your basic, and with your attitude you will stay a basic mariner, never a master mariner. Joe MSV RedCloud "otnmbrd" wrote in message nk.net... G Personal opinion .... On a ship, it would be totally different. For the average recreational boater, if you don't have to go in these conditions, don't .... if you get caught in them, slow WAY down, and take your time .... you're doing it for fun, not to make a living. otn |
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On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 18:37:28 GMT, wrote
this crap: On 31 Dec 2003 08:46:12 -0800, (Joe) wrote: Tell us Donal, How can you fix your position with the windows blacked out, no gps, no loran, no chart no radar. OH Tell us O master navigator. I could do it easily. BB Cuz you never leave the dock. This signature is now the ultimate power in the universe |
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Comments interspersed:
Joe wrote: otnmbrd wrote in message news:qxoIb.12432 Depends on where you are and what your set-up is. If you are running HSC or the Miss., this would not be bad, On the HSC you also have traffic control to advise you of any other traffic. G It's been awhile. They didn't have it when I was running there. especially if you only have one set. If you had two, for that type boat, depending on where you are, I might suggest one set at 3.0m and the other on 1.5 (scanning down on the 1.5m set, at times.) Most crew boats do have 2 radar sets, usually I have one on standby and just keep switching back and forth on the range selector. Keeps you from getting a sore neck and prevents you from missing something while moving from one display to the other, and on sunny days with thick fog I like to keep my face buried in the radars rubber hood/visor to keep from ruining your dark vision. People vary, in how they operate. If I've got two sets, they're both on ..... I may concentrate on one particular one, but I like to be able to glance at the other for the "larger" picture, and/or have it there if something should go wrong with the first (have had that happen). Once clear of the channel, into the Gulf, I'd probably kick one set up to 6.0m (at least) and the other to 3.0m (if only one set, 3.0m with kick ups to 6.0m)then scan the 3.0m set, down, on occasion. Sounds about right. I worry more in open water than I do in the rivers or channels because of wave clutter. Plus offshore I'd set up a couple of range alarms. On the supply boat ive ran we had some nice setup's. Radar on each side of the wheel with one set that will rotate so the lookout can use it. We have contest all the time seeing who could pick up targets first and calucating there speed and courses, and CPA's. In heavy traffic areas we would wear the cursers out. G Personal opinion .... On a ship, it would be totally different. For the average recreational boater, if you don't have to go in these conditions, don't .... if you get caught in them, slow WAY down, and take your time .... you're doing it for fun, not to make a living. otn Do you have a radar endorsement? Yes. Required of my license. otn Joe MSV RedCloud |
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Comments interspersed:
Simple Simon wrote: Capt. Otn, It appears to me Joe is saying if it's a commercial venture and not recreational boating then it's OK to proceed in an unsafe manner while ignoring or bending the Rules of the Road as applicable to restricted visibility. It appears to me that you are agreeing with him. I can't speak for Joe, only the conditions. First off, read rule 6 again. Each operator must consider a safe speed under ANY conditions of visibility, the maneuverability of the particular vessel, the navigation equipment, etc.. For you, in your vessel, in fog, to proceed at 6k, would be excessive speed. You have no radar, and thusly, no way to closely monitor and be aware of traffic within your area, and with your small outboard, a crash stop will probably take a couple of boat lengths. Add to this, that you are rarely underway, except on some weekends for a few hours and may or may not be traveling familiar routes. Now, let's take the "Joe's" of the world. They're running day in and day out, on the same routes, in all conditions, and are highly familiar with radar and what they see on it .... to them, the only difference between a clear day and a foggy day, is how they get their visual input as to where they are and where they're going, and their boats can stop in a boat length or less (especially if they've slowed down for something they're not sure of). Are they breaking the rules? G In some cases yes. In some cases maybe, and in some cases, not really (won't say "no", because that doesn't exist). Do I condone this type of operation? ..... only if they make it through their entire career, without an accident......Try to understand this, Neal .... this paragraph applies to me as well as all others. Appearances are sometimes misleading so I will give you the benefit of the doubt because no self-respecting, law abiding, USCG licensed Master would knowingly and proudly claim he either ignores or breaks specific COLREGS in the name of commerce. I break specific COLREGS all the time. Rule 2, allows me to do this and says that I will, if conditions warrant. The difference is, I try to obey the COLREGS, whenever possible .... it's not always possible. The COLREGS apply to all vessels - there is no distinction between commercial vessels and private vessels when it comes to operating in restricted visibility and to claim going 25 knots in restricted visibility in congested areas like the lower Mississippi and Gulf of Mexico is a safe and normal practice is to show ignorance of the law and a disregard for safety of life at sea. While you aren't saying this directly your agreeing with one who IS does not bode well for your common sense, education or professionalism. G The vast majority of traffic in the lower Miss. is commercial, and it's generally not all that congested, except to an amateur, such as yourself. If you paid attention to the radio traffic in that area, you'd know that all these vessels are in frequent and constant radio communication with each other, for "passing situations", be it clear or restricted visibility. These people are NOT showing ignorance of the law, OR a disregard for safety of life at sea. What they ARE doing, is operating at a level, which FAR exceeds your understanding and abilities AND license qualifications. As per usual, Neal, you are trying to discuss a subject, on a level that you have no chance of attaining, and even less, understanding. otn |
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Cuz if you did, your boat would sink.
"Horvath" wrote in message ... On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 18:37:28 GMT, wrote this crap: On 31 Dec 2003 08:46:12 -0800, (Joe) wrote: Tell us Donal, How can you fix your position with the windows blacked out, no gps, no loran, no chart no radar. OH Tell us O master navigator. I could do it easily. BB Cuz you never leave the dock. This signature is now the ultimate power in the universe |
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**** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.usenet.com ****
Hey, Ganz, I'm outta here. Just wanted to let you know that I think you are alright and I was only kidding about putting your puter out of commission come New Years. Fair winds to you and all the rest of alt.sailing.asa. I'll check in when I get back from cruising, maybe in 2005. S.Simon - aka Capt. Neal "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... Cuz if you did, your boat would sink. "Horvath" wrote in message ... On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 18:37:28 GMT, wrote this crap: On 31 Dec 2003 08:46:12 -0800, (Joe) wrote: Tell us Donal, How can you fix your position with the windows blacked out, no gps, no loran, no chart no radar. OH Tell us O master navigator. I could do it easily. BB Cuz you never leave the dock. This signature is now the ultimate power in the universe -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= *** Usenet.com - The #1 Usenet Newsgroup Service on The Planet! *** http://www.usenet.com Unlimited Download - 19 Seperate Servers - 90,000 groups - Uncensored -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= |
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"Roy G. Biv" wrote in message
om... I recall just such an accident happened in fog between the Fort Meyers Ferry and a small fishing boat, which I reported to Alt Sail ASA back in 2001 during a thread on navigating in fog: heres the text, link below; --------------------------------- During a recent fog on the Florida west coast the Ft Meyers Ferry (FT Meyers - Key West) collided with a small fishing vessel in fog, 1 dead, two injured. From the photos in the local paper, the smaller vessels bow/fwd quarter hit the ferrys stb. side. of course, _Both_ vessels are at fault as a collision should have been avoidable had Both vessels been maintaining a prudent speed and watch. The Ferry has multiple radar, the fishing vessel had a substantial aluminum framed T-top with above console mounted electronics box (not just a bimini) As it happened, I was in Key West when this occurred. The story, as I heard it, was that the small fishing boat was tracked on radar by two ferries which were traveling roughly side by side. They were in contact with each other but could not raise the small boat, which was approaching at over 25 knots. The danger signal was sounded by a ferry, but its not clear it was heard by the small boat. It passed behind the near ferry and plowed into the second at speed. I forget the final resolution of the incident - typically fault is shared in cases of collision, but its hard to find fault with the actions of the ferries in this case. -- -jeff "Assumptions shall not be made on the basis of scanty information" ColRegs, Rule 7(c) |
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"Joe" wrote in message om... "Donal" wrote in message ... "Joe" wrote in message m... (Roy G. Biv) wrote in message news Yeah, I recall a ferry smashing into the dock in the clear daylight not so long ago in NY. Accidents happen. They failed to maintain a proper lookout with radar. Has nothing to do with safe speed, the jerk you talked about most likely would of ran someone over at 3 knots. Are you claiming that you can maintain a proper lookout with radar alone? Thats what I'm claiming Donal. I would not suggest it running a strange river for the first time, but if you have navigated the same area many times and you know it like the back of your hand then you can safely run it with a quality fine tuned radar. Emmmm... Aren't we discussing the Coll Regs? The International Rules for the avoidance of Collisions?? I don't see how "familiarity" with a particular stretch of water can help you avoid a collision. I've done it a thousand times. Nothing to it. If it's fog bound in an area I'm not familiar with I usually wait and follow someone that knows the area. Jeeeze! I'm only an amateur, but one of my basic rules is "NEVER Follow Anybody" - they might be as lost as you are! You are the perfect example of the weekend warrior that has no clue. Take you boat out every day for a year and study every dock, bend,tank, slip, strem,ect on your radar, add those details to your charts, including the names of every dock. Study your local area and you will be able to do the same without a problem. And yet you claim that you are happy to follow somebody else when you are in unfamiliar waters??? (See above). Following people who "know the area" is the best way of running aground that I have come across. Joe, You are a menace! It is obvious that you shouldn't be allowed to sail anywhere. Regards Donal -- |
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Jeff,
what two ferries run that area and would have a schedule placing them running side by side? I reported what I read in the newspaper. . . "Jeff Morris" As it happened, I was in Key West when this occurred. The story, as I heard it, was that the small fishing boat was tracked on radar by two ferries which were traveling roughly side by side. They were in contact with each other but could not raise the small boat, which was approaching at over 25 knots. The danger signal was sounded by a ferry, but its not clear it was heard by the small boat. It passed behind the near ferry and plowed into the second at speed. I forget the final resolution of the incident - typically fault is shared in cases of collision, but its hard to find fault with the actions of the ferries in this case. |
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