Results of coroners inquest.
 

That's the problem with cheap, lightweight racing boats.

The bottom line is they are unsafe for cruising or ocean
voyaging. When voyaging or cruising one needs a boat
that is built heavy enough to abide the constant strain.

Take my Coronado 27, for example. She is built to take
the abuse the sea can dish out. She is a couple inches thick
where the keel attaches and the keel fits into a cassette
where a large, rectangular boss distributes the forces.
The keel bolts, unfortunately, were on the puny side
because the manufacturer claimed they really only were
needed for holding the keel boss tightly into the cassette
until the epoxy dried. Once dried, the epoxy bond is
supposed to be strong enough. As evidenced by inspecting
the keel to hull joint this seems to be the case. However,
to be on the safe side I installed four very stout (one inch
diameter) keel bolt in addition to the factory installed half
inch hardware.

My keel is there to stay. Also, "Cut the Mustard" enjoys the
benefits of a shoal draft keel which imparts far less strain
on the hull/cassette and hardware in the first place. Why
some people go off and get themselves killed in cheap,
lightweight boats in the name of performance is beyond
my ability to comprehend. Is an ego trip worth one's life?
I think not. I would rather cruise a knot or so slower
and be safe about it than be subjected to catastrophic
failures of loss of life. You can have your Express 30's
Pearson Flyers, J/Boats and any of that other crap that
is ultimately unsuited to be put to sea.

S.Simon



Captain William Collin, Master of the barque Grimenza wrote in message ...

Rising Farrster, a Farr 38 dropped her keel and 2 of 6 onboard
drowned.
Implications for owners of yachts built prior to 1994.
http://www.sail-world.com/index.cfm?SEID=0&Nid=11942




Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

Results of coroners inquest.
 

Keels are an unnecessary complication. The first requirement of a boat is that
it should float. A ballasted keel is trying to do the opposite. People were
crossing oceans for a thousand years before someone got the dumb idea of putting
rocks in the bottom of a boat.


"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
That's the problem with cheap, lightweight racing boats.

The bottom line is they are unsafe for cruising or ocean
voyaging. When voyaging or cruising one needs a boat
that is built heavy enough to abide the constant strain.

Take my Coronado 27, for example. She is built to take
the abuse the sea can dish out. She is a couple inches thick
where the keel attaches and the keel fits into a cassette
where a large, rectangular boss distributes the forces.
The keel bolts, unfortunately, were on the puny side
because the manufacturer claimed they really only were
needed for holding the keel boss tightly into the cassette
until the epoxy dried. Once dried, the epoxy bond is
supposed to be strong enough. As evidenced by inspecting
the keel to hull joint this seems to be the case. However,
to be on the safe side I installed four very stout (one inch
diameter) keel bolt in addition to the factory installed half
inch hardware.

My keel is there to stay. Also, "Cut the Mustard" enjoys the
benefits of a shoal draft keel which imparts far less strain
on the hull/cassette and hardware in the first place. Why
some people go off and get themselves killed in cheap,
lightweight boats in the name of performance is beyond
my ability to comprehend. Is an ego trip worth one's life?
I think not. I would rather cruise a knot or so slower
and be safe about it than be subjected to catastrophic
failures of loss of life. You can have your Express 30's
Pearson Flyers, J/Boats and any of that other crap that
is ultimately unsuited to be put to sea.

S.Simon



Captain William Collin, Master of the barque Grimenza wrote in message
...

Rising Farrster, a Farr 38 dropped her keel and 2 of 6 onboard
drowned.
Implications for owners of yachts built prior to 1994.
http://www.sail-world.com/index.cfm?SEID=0&Nid=11942




Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

Results of coroners inquest.
 

"Simple Simon" wrote ...
That's the problem with cheap Coronados.
The bottom line is they are unsafe for cruising or ocean
voyaging.


Why
some people go off sailing boats is beyond
my ability to comprehend.

S.Simon

Results of coroners inquest.
 

Simple Simon wrote:

Take my Coronado 27, for example.

Take it to the dump. The story was about real boats, not your plastic
trailerboat with the broken boom.

When are you going to understand that when people talk about boats and
sailors they mean real boats and real sailors, not wannabes like you and
your toy boat.

Rick

Results of coroners inquest.
 

Lucky my boat was built in NZ with the proper hull thickness eh?

Cheers MC

Captain William Collin, Master of the barque Grimenza wrote:
Rising Farrster, a Farr 38 dropped her keel and 2 of 6 onboard
drowned.
Implications for owners of yachts built prior to 1994.
http://www.sail-world.com/index.cfm?SEID=0&Nid=11942




Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

Results of coroners inquest.
 

Thus spoke the scantlings expert: "The expoxy dried"

Cheers MC



Simple Simon wrote:

That's the problem with cheap, lightweight racing boats.

The bottom line is they are unsafe for cruising or ocean
voyaging. When voyaging or cruising one needs a boat
that is built heavy enough to abide the constant strain.

Take my Coronado 27, for example. She is built to take
the abuse the sea can dish out. She is a couple inches thick
where the keel attaches and the keel fits into a cassette
where a large, rectangular boss distributes the forces.
The keel bolts, unfortunately, were on the puny side
because the manufacturer claimed they really only were
needed for holding the keel boss tightly into the cassette
until the epoxy dried. Once dried, the epoxy bond is
supposed to be strong enough. As evidenced by inspecting
the keel to hull joint this seems to be the case. However,
to be on the safe side I installed four very stout (one inch
diameter) keel bolt in addition to the factory installed half
inch hardware.

My keel is there to stay. Also, "Cut the Mustard" enjoys the
benefits of a shoal draft keel which imparts far less strain
on the hull/cassette and hardware in the first place. Why
some people go off and get themselves killed in cheap,
lightweight boats in the name of performance is beyond
my ability to comprehend. Is an ego trip worth one's life?
I think not. I would rather cruise a knot or so slower
and be safe about it than be subjected to catastrophic
failures of loss of life. You can have your Express 30's
Pearson Flyers, J/Boats and any of that other crap that
is ultimately unsuited to be put to sea.

S.Simon



Captain William Collin, Master of the barque Grimenza wrote in message ...

Rising Farrster, a Farr 38 dropped her keel and 2 of 6 onboard
drowned.
Implications for owners of yachts built prior to 1994.
http://www.sail-world.com/index.cfm?SEID=0&Nid=11942




Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

Results of coroners inquest.
 

Perhaps when they met a storm they died too.

Cheers MC

Jeff Morris wrote:

Keels are an unnecessary complication. The first requirement of a boat is that
it should float. A ballasted keel is trying to do the opposite. People were
crossing oceans for a thousand years before someone got the dumb idea of putting
rocks in the bottom of a boat.


"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...

That's the problem with cheap, lightweight racing boats.

The bottom line is they are unsafe for cruising or ocean
voyaging. When voyaging or cruising one needs a boat
that is built heavy enough to abide the constant strain.

Take my Coronado 27, for example. She is built to take
the abuse the sea can dish out. She is a couple inches thick
where the keel attaches and the keel fits into a cassette
where a large, rectangular boss distributes the forces.
The keel bolts, unfortunately, were on the puny side
because the manufacturer claimed they really only were
needed for holding the keel boss tightly into the cassette
until the epoxy dried. Once dried, the epoxy bond is
supposed to be strong enough. As evidenced by inspecting
the keel to hull joint this seems to be the case. However,
to be on the safe side I installed four very stout (one inch
diameter) keel bolt in addition to the factory installed half
inch hardware.

My keel is there to stay. Also, "Cut the Mustard" enjoys the
benefits of a shoal draft keel which imparts far less strain
on the hull/cassette and hardware in the first place. Why
some people go off and get themselves killed in cheap,
lightweight boats in the name of performance is beyond
my ability to comprehend. Is an ego trip worth one's life?
I think not. I would rather cruise a knot or so slower
and be safe about it than be subjected to catastrophic
failures of loss of life. You can have your Express 30's
Pearson Flyers, J/Boats and any of that other crap that
is ultimately unsuited to be put to sea.

S.Simon



Captain William Collin, Master of the barque Grimenza wrote in message

...

Rising Farrster, a Farr 38 dropped her keel and 2 of 6 onboard
drowned.
Implications for owners of yachts built prior to 1994.
http://www.sail-world.com/index.cfm?SEID=0&Nid=11942




Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

Results of coroners inquest.
 

My keel stub is 2" thick and forms part of the structural grid. 8 of
the bolts are in double rows as well...

Cheers MC


Captain William Collin, Master of the barque Grimenza wrote:

On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 09:51:06 +1300, The_navigator©
scribbled thusly:


Lucky my boat was built in NZ with the proper hull thickness eh?

Cheers MC


Are you sure?
ABS was and still is pretty much the standard used by all
boatbuilders.
Generally they wouldn't build stronger than what was at the time the
rule.
http://www.sail-world.com/index.cfm?SEID=0&Nid=11942


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

Results of coroners inquest.
 

Maybe you're lucky it hasn't snapped of yet.


"The_navigator©" wrote in message
...
Lucky my boat was built in NZ with the proper hull thickness eh?

Cheers MC

Captain William Collin, Master of the barque Grimenza wrote:
Rising Farrster, a Farr 38 dropped her keel and 2 of 6 onboard
drowned.
Implications for owners of yachts built prior to 1994.
http://www.sail-world.com/index.cfm?SEID=0&Nid=11942




Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

Results of coroners inquest.
 

Captain William Collin, Master of the barque Grimenza wrote

No actually it was a problem with regulations .....

Regulations ARE a problem. Foolish buyers of automobiles, boats, medicines,
et al, think that regulations are there to protect them from their own
ignorance and stupidity. In fact they protect unscrupulous manufacturers.
"My product conforms to Government regulations" provides a fine defense
against lawsuits.

Results of coroners inquest.
 

Oz,

Are you sure about bolting to a stub?
I almost didn't buy my present boat because it had no visable keel
bolts. I assumed they were buryed. Being use the doing all the
maintenance on the leaking keel bolts I wasn't sure of how to take care
of the problem. My Broker laughed at me. He said my keel will never have
bolt leaks because the whole keel is part of the hull. The light finally
went on.

Keels shouldn't be bolted to fibre Glass. It is a method that was
carried over from wooded construction. When a keel bolt works on
fibreglass there is no recovery and it will only get worse until you do
maintenance. Schooner Trash can confirm this. I know it. It is a
fault racers put up with to have the option of changing keels.

OT

Results of coroners inquest.
 

You're full of **** as usual, old man!

Bolting keels to a fiberglass hull is the best
way to do it. What you have on your inferior
boat is a hull molded in the shape of a keel
with lead if you're lucky, and concrete if
you aren't placed into the hollow hull-shaped-
like-a-keel.

A bolted-on lead keel is the best choice with
a bolted-on cast iron keel second in line. The
hull must be engineered to manage the forces
involved, however. This is not very hard for
an engineer to design. It's only the racers
that are built as light as possible that seem
to have problems with fin keels breaking off.

S.Simon




"Thom Stewart" wrote in message ...
Oz,

Are you sure about bolting to a stub?
I almost didn't buy my present boat because it had no visable keel
bolts. I assumed they were buryed. Being use the doing all the
maintenance on the leaking keel bolts I wasn't sure of how to take care
of the problem. My Broker laughed at me. He said my keel will never have
bolt leaks because the whole keel is part of the hull. The light finally
went on.

Keels shouldn't be bolted to fibre Glass. It is a method that was
carried over from wooded construction. When a keel bolt works on
fibreglass there is no recovery and it will only get worse until you do
maintenance. Schooner Trash can confirm this. I know it. It is a
fault racers put up with to have the option of changing keels.

OT

Results of coroners inquest.
 

Are you sure?
;-P
Cheers MC

Captain William Collin, Master of the barque Grimenza wrote:
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 12:14:31 +1300, The_navigator©
scribbled thusly:


My keel stub is 2" thick and forms part of the structural grid. 8 of
the bolts are in double rows as well...

Cheers MC


OK, that'll do :-)


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

Results of coroners inquest.
 

Dear Thom

If properly designed there is no problem with bolting keels on. Bolting
an external deep keel on has several advantages for construction,
transportation etc. It can also save costs by placing the tensile load
on bolts whose quality and later state of health is more easily
determined than that of the hull skin -which would have to cover the
entire surface of the fin to carry the weight in the keel. Getting the
lead inside the fin might be a problem too.. This is less of an issue
for small boats where ballast weights are more modest. Finally, and
perhaps most important, the solution you prefer would require the fin to
be laid up in halves (being a long thin structure) and the bonding of
those halves would be very wasteful of material and not a good
structural solution as the joint would be a 'weak point'.

Cheers MC

Thom Stewart wrote:

Oz,

Are you sure about bolting to a stub?
I almost didn't buy my present boat because it had no visable keel
bolts. I assumed they were buryed. Being use the doing all the
maintenance on the leaking keel bolts I wasn't sure of how to take care
of the problem. My Broker laughed at me. He said my keel will never have
bolt leaks because the whole keel is part of the hull. The light finally
went on.

Keels shouldn't be bolted to fibre Glass. It is a method that was
carried over from wooded construction. When a keel bolt works on
fibreglass there is no recovery and it will only get worse until you do
maintenance. Schooner Trash can confirm this. I know it. It is a
fault racers put up with to have the option of changing keels.

OT

Results of coroners inquest.
 

I agree, although a depleted uranium keel is even better than lead...

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:


Bolting keels to a fiberglass hull is the best
way to do it. What you have on your inferior
boat is a hull molded in the shape of a keel
with lead if you're lucky, and concrete if
you aren't placed into the hollow hull-shaped-
like-a-keel.

A bolted-on lead keel is the best choice with
a bolted-on cast iron keel second in line. The
hull must be engineered to manage the forces
involved, however. This is not very hard for
an engineer to design. It's only the racers
that are built as light as possible that seem
to have problems with fin keels breaking off.

S.Simon




"Thom Stewart" wrote in message ...

Oz,

Are you sure about bolting to a stub?
I almost didn't buy my present boat because it had no visable keel
bolts. I assumed they were buryed. Being use the doing all the
maintenance on the leaking keel bolts I wasn't sure of how to take care
of the problem. My Broker laughed at me. He said my keel will never have
bolt leaks because the whole keel is part of the hull. The light finally
went on.

Keels shouldn't be bolted to fibre Glass. It is a method that was
carried over from wooded construction. When a keel bolt works on
fibreglass there is no recovery and it will only get worse until you do
maintenance. Schooner Trash can confirm this. I know it. It is a
fault racers put up with to have the option of changing keels.

OT

Results of coroners inquest.
 

I assume you're talking about an interior keel, that is lead poured into the
fiberglass hull.

This is not immune from problems. I remember reading an Ocean Navigator article
about a cruiser that went through Woods Hole and made the classic mistake of
hesitating in the turn, and ended on Red Ledge, the rocks just to the east of
the channel.

The CG pulled him off fairly quickly, but the interior keel was bent, and the
boat was declared totaled.



"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
Oz,

Are you sure about bolting to a stub?
I almost didn't buy my present boat because it had no visable keel
bolts. I assumed they were buryed. Being use the doing all the
maintenance on the leaking keel bolts I wasn't sure of how to take care
of the problem. My Broker laughed at me. He said my keel will never have
bolt leaks because the whole keel is part of the hull. The light finally
went on.

Keels shouldn't be bolted to fibre Glass. It is a method that was
carried over from wooded construction. When a keel bolt works on
fibreglass there is no recovery and it will only get worse until you do
maintenance. Schooner Trash can confirm this. I know it. It is a
fault racers put up with to have the option of changing keels.

OT

Results of coroners inquest.
 

It's heavier but is it soft enough to cushion possible
impacts with the sea bottom? Since it is used to pierce
armor I've got a feeling it is pretty stout stuff.

S.Simon


"The_navigator©" wrote in message ...
I agree, although a depleted uranium keel is even better than lead...

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:


Bolting keels to a fiberglass hull is the best
way to do it. What you have on your inferior
boat is a hull molded in the shape of a keel
with lead if you're lucky, and concrete if
you aren't placed into the hollow hull-shaped-
like-a-keel.

A bolted-on lead keel is the best choice with
a bolted-on cast iron keel second in line. The
hull must be engineered to manage the forces
involved, however. This is not very hard for
an engineer to design. It's only the racers
that are built as light as possible that seem
to have problems with fin keels breaking off.

S.Simon




"Thom Stewart" wrote in message ...

Oz,

Are you sure about bolting to a stub?
I almost didn't buy my present boat because it had no visable keel
bolts. I assumed they were buryed. Being use the doing all the
maintenance on the leaking keel bolts I wasn't sure of how to take care
of the problem. My Broker laughed at me. He said my keel will never have
bolt leaks because the whole keel is part of the hull. The light finally
went on.

Keels shouldn't be bolted to fibre Glass. It is a method that was
carried over from wooded construction. When a keel bolt works on
fibreglass there is no recovery and it will only get worse until you do
maintenance. Schooner Trash can confirm this. I know it. It is a
fault racers put up with to have the option of changing keels.

OT

Results of coroners inquest.
 

Captain William Collin, Master of the barque Grimenza wrote in message ...
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 16:43:14 -0500, "Simple Simon"
scribbled thusly:

It's heavier but is it soft enough to cushion possible
impacts with the sea bottom? Since it is used to pierce
armor I've got a feeling it is pretty stout stuff.

S.Simon

Cushion?
WTF are you talking about?


You know, when a sailor runs into a rock or other
hard object on the bottom - maybe a coral head
it is said that lead, being soft, will cushion the
blow by deforming and absorbing some of the
force thus sparing the structure of the yacht.

S.Simon

Results of coroners inquest.
 

Captain William Collin, Master of the barque Grimenza wrote in message ...
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 17:08:21 -0500, "Simple Simon"
scribbled thusly:


Captain William Collin, Master of the barque Grimenza wrote in message ...
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 16:43:14 -0500, "Simple Simon"
scribbled thusly:

It's heavier but is it soft enough to cushion possible
impacts with the sea bottom? Since it is used to pierce
armor I've got a feeling it is pretty stout stuff.

S.Simon

Cushion?
WTF are you talking about?


You know, when a sailor runs into a rock or other
hard object on the bottom - maybe a coral head
it is said that lead, being soft, will cushion the
blow by deforming and absorbing some of the
force thus sparing the structure of the yacht.

S.Simon


Bwaaahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaa!
Cappy that rates among the most idiotic things that you've ever
written!!


It did not originate with me but I can see the logic of it.

Your reaction, on the other hand, is illogical.

S.Simon

Results of coroners inquest.
 

Simple,

You are looking in the wrong direction. The Pile of **** is in Your
Court.

My Keel is a separate Keel that has been attached to a "Newport 30" hull
and Fibre Glassed into the Hull/including the lead wing also incased in
Fibre Glass.

I've had both; Bolted on and Molded on. I can say, from experience after
14 years the molded in has given me zero problems. I can't say that with
either of my Bolt ons

Results of coroners inquest.
 

Hey Oz,

Did that former Patner have anything to do with that POS the Kiwi Built
for the America's Cup Defense? smile What an object of Pride to show
the world on World Wide TV of Kiwi boat building :^)

Ole Thom

Results of coroners inquest.
 

Hey Oz,

Did that former Patner have anything to do with that POS the Kiwi Built
for the America's Cup Defense? smile What an object of Pride to show
the world on World Wide TV of Kiwi boat building :^)

Ole Thom

Wasn't that a Farr project?

Results of coroners inquest.
 

I have to wonder who engineered the hull to
accept this 'add on' keel. It sounds to me like
a disaster waiting to happen. I wonder if the
scantlings are right for a glassed-on false
keel? I doubt it. I can envision stress cracks
galore. Wear your exposure suit at all times.

S.Simon


"Thom Stewart" wrote in message ...
Simple,

You are looking in the wrong direction. The Pile of **** is in Your
Court.

My Keel is a separate Keel that has been attached to a "Newport 30" hull
and Fibre Glassed into the Hull/including the lead wing also incased in
Fibre Glass.

I've had both; Bolted on and Molded on. I can say, from experience after
14 years the molded in has given me zero problems. I can't say that with
either of my Bolt ons

Results of coroners inquest.
 

Simple Simon wrote:

It did not originate with me but I can see the logic of it.

Oh Geez, it is truly amazing what passes for logic in your mind.

Your reaction, on the other hand, is illogical.

It was the reaction of anyone with more than an elementary school
education, a few moments exposure to high school physics, and the world
outside a mental institution.

But then I guess you applied the same logic to your selection of
galvanized pipe to repair your broken boom.

Master mariner, indeed. If you ever left your mooring you would be a
hazard to navigation. As it is you are just a bad joke, a health hazard,
and a marine pollutant.

Rick

Results of coroners inquest.
 

I check my keel bolts every 6 mos or so. They're easily accessible on
the Cal 20. Doesn't hurt to check. When I hauled it the first time, several
were loose.

Captain William Collin, Master of the barque Grimenza wrote in message
...
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 22:59:29 GMT,
scribbled thusly:

On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 08:03:41 +1100, "Captain William Collin, Master of
the
barque Grimenza" wrote:

I could never buy a C&C with their "smile" reputation because any
cracking meands movement no matter what the owners/builders may say.
I suspect that is the real reason Bubbles purchased his boat cheap.
The crack means water ingress, the water one devoid of oxygen will
corrode the keelbolts and then the real drama begins. I would be
interested in seeing his current haulout shots to see if he had the
problem fixed.

This is just plain nonsense. The C&C smile is very rarely cause for
alarm.
Cracking does not always mean shifting or a breech. In the case of C&C,
what it
usually means is some of the extreme outer layer of fillet cracking due
to
stretching of the hard, non flexible fillet material.

Umm what's causing the stretching? Movement?

The keel joint itself
remains water tight unless the keel bolts have not been properly torqued.
Every
spring, I spend all of 15 minutes checking the torque on those 5 big
bolts. No
big deal.

I've never needed to check keel bolts more than once after a keel was
installed unless there were unusual circumstances. ie grounding or
extreme weather.
First sign is usually cracking.

My C&C had a crack all the way around the keel when I bought it. The keel
bolts
were not tightened properly. The keel had been professionally rebedded 5
years
earlier, but the keel bolts had not been checked since then. Even at
that,
there was no, none, nada, zilch, leaking into the bilge

Water can still get around the bolts without getting into the bilge.

I simply torqued the
bolts properly, ground out the crack a little bigger and filled it with
Marine
Tex. The crack has not re-appeared. This is a complete NON - ISSUE for
people
knowledgeable about boat construction.

Oh OK, so next time I see a boat with cracks right around the
hull/keel joint I'll just think about you and pass it off as nothing
to worry about, Just torque em up and she'll be right mate.

The famous C&C smile is cosmetic for the most part. I have seen boats of
many
brands with true keel separation. C&C is better than most in this regard
because
of the way the joint is designed.

Cosmetic for the most part....What's the other part?

BB



Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

Results of coroners inquest.
 

Captain William Collin, Master of the barque Grimenza wrote
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 18:01:36 -0500, "Simple Simon" scribbled thusly:

You know, when a sailor runs into a rock or other
hard object on the bottom - maybe a coral head
it is said that lead, being soft, will cushion the
blow by deforming and absorbing some of the
force thus sparing the structure of the yacht.

Bwaaahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaa!

Sorry but SS is right on this one. A sharp hammer like impact imparts very
high albiet near instantanious loads that break relatively brittle materials
like glass and the glass fibers in composites. The soft lead would absorb
some of the peak load and spread the rest over a longer period of time
reducing the peak stress. That's why race bikes never use steel crash bars.

Enough to make a difference? Yer pays yer money and ....

Results of coroners inquest.
 

Hey mister toy tugboat skipper, what makes you
so jealous of me? Is it because you know with
your silly restored tugboat you really can't go
anywhere, do anything, or even manage to fool
yourself into thinking you are enjoying yourself?

The only enjoyment you get out of your silly
vessel is satisfaction you get when you think
people are actually admiring your restoration
efforts when all the while they are thinking,
"waste of time, effort and money on a pipe
dream".

Real men such as those of us who live aboard
and cruise and voyage under sail do not need
the 'cosmetic' approval of a stream of dock
passers-by to build up a sagging ego. We are
secure in the knowledge that we are living
a life centered on enjoying mother nature
and the beauty of sail - not the polyurethane,
chrome, wax, and buffer world of you
showboaters.

S.Simon


"Rick" wrote in message link.net...
Simple Simon wrote:

It did not originate with me but I can see the logic of it.

Oh Geez, it is truly amazing what passes for logic in your mind.

Your reaction, on the other hand, is illogical.

It was the reaction of anyone with more than an elementary school
education, a few moments exposure to high school physics, and the world
outside a mental institution.

But then I guess you applied the same logic to your selection of
galvanized pipe to repair your broken boom.

Master mariner, indeed. If you ever left your mooring you would be a
hazard to navigation. As it is you are just a bad joke, a health hazard,
and a marine pollutant.

Rick

Results of coroners inquest.
 

Oz'

Loose from compression?

You're asking the right question. I do believe that is what makes the
bolts on a bolt on keel come loose. I believe that compression on the
fibre glass causes it to take a permanent set (Even if just sitting on
the hard) This set gives the, bolt on, the ability to work (Move)

On my past boats I found this to be true. I installed packing under the
washers before torquing. It gave me a dry hull but was never sure of the
bolts outside the hull and the moisture penetrating the fibre glass on
the drilled holes?

Ole Thom

Results of coroners inquest.
 

Ever do any mechanic work? Have you ever used a brass
hammer to say align a crankshaft that is pinned and
pressed together? The brass hammer head deforms
while the crankshaft counterweight does not. Very
small movement of the counterweights can be attained
instead of the large, uncontrolled movement that would
knock the crankshaft out of alignment on the opposite
side of the spectrum.

This control and the fact the brass hammer is used because
it is soft and does not damage the structure of the crankshaft
as a steel hammer would is analogous to the forces applied
on the hull of a boat if its keel hits an unmovable object.

The same principle applies to a lead keel. The
mass of lead, of course, is the primary consideration
but the softness of the lead to cushion a blow is another
consideration and makes lead a superior material to
cast iron in addition the lead's extra mass.

It is hard for me to believe you've been in the yachting
field very long or done much reading to speak of without
knowing this very obvious and widely known fact.

S.Simon


Captain William Collin, Master of the barque Grimenza wrote in message ...
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 18:01:36 -0500, "Simple Simon"
scribbled thusly:


Captain William Collin, Master of the barque Grimenza wrote in message ...
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 17:08:21 -0500, "Simple Simon"
scribbled thusly:


Captain William Collin, Master of the barque Grimenza wrote in message ...
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 16:43:14 -0500, "Simple Simon"
scribbled thusly:

It's heavier but is it soft enough to cushion possible
impacts with the sea bottom? Since it is used to pierce
armor I've got a feeling it is pretty stout stuff.

S.Simon

Cushion?
WTF are you talking about?


You know, when a sailor runs into a rock or other
hard object on the bottom - maybe a coral head
it is said that lead, being soft, will cushion the
blow by deforming and absorbing some of the
force thus sparing the structure of the yacht.

S.Simon


Bwaaahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaa!
Cappy that rates among the most idiotic things that you've ever
written!!


It did not originate with me but I can see the logic of it.

Your reaction, on the other hand, is illogical.

S.Simon

Cappy could you fill me in on how much cushioning I could expect from
say a 4 ton lump of solid lead and how it would achieve that
cushioning?


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

Results of coroners inquest.
 

So far they haven't been loose, but I'm not losing much by checking
periodically.

"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
Oz'

Loose from compression?

You're asking the right question. I do believe that is what makes the
bolts on a bolt on keel come loose. I believe that compression on the
fibre glass causes it to take a permanent set (Even if just sitting on
the hard) This set gives the, bolt on, the ability to work (Move)

On my past boats I found this to be true. I installed packing under the
washers before torquing. It gave me a dry hull but was never sure of the
bolts outside the hull and the moisture penetrating the fibre glass on
the drilled holes?

Ole Thom

Results of coroners inquest.
 

So Simple,

We should use Lead Keels, so as not to damage the rocks that we hit?:^)

I'm truly amassed at your logic. Are you trying to say the foce that
deforms the keel isn't felt by the hull? g Think about it, using your
own anology. The blow is to soften the blow on the surface of the struck
object. The force on arm,hand and hammer is still the same.

Lord,Simple, you can really get your mind rapped and a point in the
strangest, dumbest ways

Ole Thom

Results of coroners inquest.
 

Jon,

What you're doing is correct and necessary to prevent the keel bolts
from working. I not saying a bolt on keel isn't any good, it is just
that they must be looked after.

Award yourself with three taps to the head with a soft lead hammer.
smiling

Ole Thom

Results of coroners inquest.
 

Jax said real mechanics don't use hammers.

SV

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
Ever do any mechanic work? Have you ever used a brass
hammer to say align a crankshaft that is pinned and
pressed together? The brass hammer head deforms
while the crankshaft counterweight does not. Very
small movement of the counterweights can be attained
instead of the large, uncontrolled movement that would
knock the crankshaft out of alignment on the opposite
side of the spectrum.

This control and the fact the brass hammer is used because
it is soft and does not damage the structure of the crankshaft
as a steel hammer would is analogous to the forces applied
on the hull of a boat if its keel hits an unmovable object.

The same principle applies to a lead keel. The
mass of lead, of course, is the primary consideration
but the softness of the lead to cushion a blow is another
consideration and makes lead a superior material to
cast iron in addition the lead's extra mass.

It is hard for me to believe you've been in the yachting
field very long or done much reading to speak of without
knowing this very obvious and widely known fact.

S.Simon


Captain William Collin, Master of the barque Grimenza wrote in message
...
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 18:01:36 -0500, "Simple Simon"
scribbled thusly:


Captain William Collin, Master of the barque Grimenza wrote in
message ...
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 17:08:21 -0500, "Simple Simon"
scribbled thusly:


Captain William Collin, Master of the barque Grimenza wrote in
message ...
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 16:43:14 -0500, "Simple Simon"
scribbled thusly:

It's heavier but is it soft enough to cushion possible
impacts with the sea bottom? Since it is used to pierce
armor I've got a feeling it is pretty stout stuff.

S.Simon

Cushion?
WTF are you talking about?


You know, when a sailor runs into a rock or other
hard object on the bottom - maybe a coral head
it is said that lead, being soft, will cushion the
blow by deforming and absorbing some of the
force thus sparing the structure of the yacht.

S.Simon


Bwaaahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaa!
Cappy that rates among the most idiotic things that you've ever
written!!


It did not originate with me but I can see the logic of it.

Your reaction, on the other hand, is illogical.

S.Simon

Cappy could you fill me in on how much cushioning I could expect from
say a 4 ton lump of solid lead and how it would achieve that
cushioning?


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

Results of coroners inquest.
 

First the idiot Oz and now you. Oh well . . .

Lord but you people are daft! Allow me to do a little
experiment on your jaw, you silly old fart. Let me
punch you in the jaw with my fist in a boxing glove.

Then, when you regain consciousness, and rub
your sore jaw allow me to hit it again my balled
up fist without the glove. Whereas all you lost
with the fist in glove is consciousness what you
lose with my balled up fist is consciousness
plus a broken jaw.

Your hull is your jaw. The lead keel is my fist in a
glove. The cast iron keel is my balled up fist.
Understand now you putz?

You too, Oz you weenie.

S.Simon


"Thom Stewart" wrote in message ...
So Simple,

We should use Lead Keels, so as not to damage the rocks that we hit?:^)

I'm truly amassed at your logic. Are you trying to say the foce that
deforms the keel isn't felt by the hull? g Think about it, using your
own anology. The blow is to soften the blow on the surface of the struck
object. The force on arm,hand and hammer is still the same.

Lord,Simple, you can really get your mind rapped and a point in the
strangest, dumbest ways

Ole Thom

Results of coroners inquest.
 

I've already been awarded a similar kudo.

"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
Jon,

What you're doing is correct and necessary to prevent the keel bolts
from working. I not saying a bolt on keel isn't any good, it is just
that they must be looked after.

Award yourself with three taps to the head with a soft lead hammer.
smiling

Ole Thom

Results of coroners inquest.
 

Captain William Collin, Master of the barque Grimenza wrote in message ...
I've been in yachting long enough to know that what you ascert is
total fiction, an old wives tale.

Negative! It's not fiction. It's physics. You are trying
to rewrite the laws of physics. To the loony bin with
you.

S.Simon

Results of coroners inquest.
 

Hey Weenie, you'd have to spend a great deal of
time in a gym before you could lift either one.

S.Simon


Captain William Collin, Master of the barque Grimenza wrote in message
...

Hey Cappy, how about I smack you over the head with a solid 2"lead
bar then do the same with a steel one.

Results of coroners inquest.
 

Simp's correct Thom. Think of the rock as the hammer. Try hitting an
anvil 100 times with a 20lb steel sledge, then do it with a 22lb plastic or
rubber hammer.

Scotty


"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
So Simple,

We should use Lead Keels, so as not to damage the rocks that we hit?:^)

I'm truly amassed at your logic. Are you trying to say the foce that
deforms the keel isn't felt by the hull? g Think about it, using your
own anology. The blow is to soften the blow on the surface of the struck
object. The force on arm,hand and hammer is still the same.

Lord,Simple, you can really get your mind rapped and a point in the
strangest, dumbest ways

Ole Thom

Results of coroners inquest.
 

what rock?


Captain William Collin, Master of the barque Grimenza wrote in message
...
On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 20:01:58 -0500, "Scott Vernon"
scribbled thusly:

Simp's correct Thom. Think of the rock as the hammer. Try hitting an
anvil 100 times with a 20lb steel sledge, then do it with a 22lb plastic
or
rubber hammer.

Scotty

Then try hitting it with a lead hammer. the same force is applied to
the rock.


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

Results of coroners inquest.
 

Oh, pay attention next time.
The lead hammer will have slightly less
Captain William Collin, Master of the barque Grimenza wrote in message
...
On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 20:07:44 -0500, "Scott Vernon"
scribbled thusly:

what rock?

anvil then....


Captain William Collin, Master of the barque Grimenza wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 20:01:58 -0500, "Scott Vernon"
scribbled thusly:

Simp's correct Thom. Think of the rock as the hammer. Try hitting
an
anvil 100 times with a 20lb steel sledge, then do it with a 22lb
plastic
or
rubber hammer.

Scotty

Then try hitting it with a lead hammer. the same force is applied to
the rock.


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.



Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.