Ketch storm tatics
 

In a storm would you, if you had a ketch:

1. reef down the main and mizzen, drop the jib.
2. use just a tri sail on the main mast.
3. use a storm jib and a reefed mizzen.
4. just use a storm jib.
5. Use just a reefed main
6. Use a reefed main and a storm jib.

And why is a tri sail track offset on the main mast?

Is it just because you can raise the sail fast without un-bending the
main, or does it have something to do with shape.

How much, if any foil shape should a tri sail have?

And how do you best figure what size tri sail you should use?

And with a quick double reefing system, do you think a tri sail is
needed?

Thanks

Joe
MSV RedCloud

Ketch storm tatics
 

Tri sail all the way, baby! Storm jib and mizzen can work, but only on heavier
crab crushers.

You fail to include the severity of conditions in any case.

RB

Ketch storm tatics
 

#3, but you don't say what you mean by "storm."

"Joe" wrote in message
om...
In a storm would you, if you had a ketch:

1. reef down the main and mizzen, drop the jib.
2. use just a tri sail on the main mast.
3. use a storm jib and a reefed mizzen.
4. just use a storm jib.
5. Use just a reefed main
6. Use a reefed main and a storm jib.

And why is a tri sail track offset on the main mast?

Is it just because you can raise the sail fast without un-bending the
main, or does it have something to do with shape.

How much, if any foil shape should a tri sail have?

And how do you best figure what size tri sail you should use?

And with a quick double reefing system, do you think a tri sail is
needed?

Thanks

Joe
MSV RedCloud

Ketch storm tatics
 

Nutsy,

Honestly, have you ever, in your whole life ever sailed with storm sail
in a storm?
If you haven't, please don't offer hearsay advice.

I have. One time. Do you know what my decision was? I decided to get
those damned useless sails off my boat, never to use them again. EVER!!

That was my conclusion. I couldn't make any progress up wind, to get
out of the storm and had to turn down wind and get the **** kicked out
of me sailing in the storm. I finally went bare pole and set a drogue,
Which got tossed into the cockpit when I got pooped

Ketch storm tatics
 

Honestly, have you ever, in your whole life ever sailed with storm sail
in a storm?
If you haven't, please don't offer hearsay advice.

The advice is from the book, Heavy Sailing Tactics.
No, I've not had much experience with a Ketch, but I plan to get some soon!

RB

Ketch storm tactics
 

Sorry I hit the send by mistake and I want to finish this reply.

I finally got everything inboard and squared away and just let the boat
take care of itself. My only help was prayer and fear.

I decided all the damn stories I had heard weren't worth a PINT OF ****.

I don't know how to sail in a storm. The people who built my boat know
better than me

I don't say I'm right because I don't know but if you really have been
in a real storm and sailed successfully you can give advice. If you
haven't SHUT THE HELL UP

AND; "I'LL DRINK TO THAT!!!" I now go bare headed in a hove attitude
but pray I'll not get caught again

Ole Thom

Ketch storm tatics
 

Joe wrote:

In a storm would you, if you had a ketch:

1. reef down the main and mizzen, drop the jib.
2. use just a tri sail on the main mast.
3. use a storm jib and a reefed mizzen.
4. just use a storm jib.
5. Use just a reefed main
6. Use a reefed main and a storm jib.

Depends on the rig, depends on the conditions. Usually a mizzen that is
made for everyday sailing is not going to be tough enough to stand up to
use as a storm sail, reefed & used together with a jib.

But, being able to drop the main and sail under jib & mizzen as wind
increases is a good characteristic. Not all ketches will do it well.





And why is a tri sail track offset on the main mast?

Is it just because you can raise the sail fast without un-bending the
main, or does it have something to do with shape.

So that you can bend on the trysail before the storm, and keep sailing
with the regular main until you need to douse it. In storm conditions,
trying to unbend the mainsail and thread in the trysail is going to lead
to loss of crew or loss of sail at least.




How much, if any foil shape should a tri sail have?

Very little. It does need some camber, but not much. Probably a web site
that says, but I'd guess less than 10%, possibly around 5%.



And how do you best figure what size tri sail you should use?

Scaled to the boats displacement, righting moment, & lateral area.



And with a quick double reefing system, do you think a tri sail is
needed?

Yes. The trysail, or storm staysail, is for conditions that are worse than
you want your regular sails flying in.

Once I experimented with using a small boat's jib as a storm staysail. It
set nicely and was about the right area (60 SqFt on a 30' keel boat) but
shredded after about an hour in 40 ~ 50 knot winds.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Ketch storm tatics
 

The tri sail track is to avoid unbending the main as you suggest. Double
reefs are not sufficient. You need a deep reef at least and a trisail
and storm jib are best for ocean crossings.

Cheers MC

Joe wrote:

In a storm would you, if you had a ketch:

1. reef down the main and mizzen, drop the jib.
2. use just a tri sail on the main mast.
3. use a storm jib and a reefed mizzen.
4. just use a storm jib.
5. Use just a reefed main
6. Use a reefed main and a storm jib.

And why is a tri sail track offset on the main mast?

Is it just because you can raise the sail fast without un-bending the
main, or does it have something to do with shape.

How much, if any foil shape should a tri sail have?

And how do you best figure what size tri sail you should use?

And with a quick double reefing system, do you think a tri sail is
needed?

Thanks

Joe
MSV RedCloud

Ketch storm tatics
 

Can you give an example?

Cheers MC

DSK wrote:

Not all ketches will do it well.

Ketch storm tatics
 

DSK wrote:
Not all ketches will do it well.


The navigator© wrote:
Can you give an example?

Sure.... any ketch that doesn't balance well under
jib & mizzen. It doesn't happen automagically,
y'know.

I can't say firsthand, but I suspect that Mari-Cha
4 doesn't balance at all under jib & mizzen. So
there!

DSK

Ketch storm tatics
 

Why do you say that? I'd say the foretriangle matches the mizzen quite
well. If the C of E of the main matches the CLR (as it should for a
balanced ketch) then she will balance under miz and foresail.

Cheers MC

DSK wrote:

DSK wrote:
Not all ketches will do it well.


The navigator© wrote:
Can you give an example?


Sure.... any ketch that doesn't balance well under
jib & mizzen. It doesn't happen automagically,
y'know.

I can't say firsthand, but I suspect that Mari-Cha
4 doesn't balance at all under jib & mizzen. So
there!

DSK

Ketch storm tatics
 

Bwhahahahhahahaha. You are NUTS.

Cheers MC

Bobsprit wrote:

Tri sail all the way, baby! Storm jib and mizzen can work, but only on heavier
crab crushers.

You fail to include the severity of conditions in any case.

RB

Ketch storm tactics
 

Hey Thom, what was the problem? Was she hobby horsing too much to get
way on? Was there a problem with excess weight in the ends?

Cheers MC



Thom Stewart wrote:

Sorry I hit the send by mistake and I want to finish this reply.

I finally got everything inboard and squared away and just let the boat
take care of itself. My only help was prayer and fear.

I decided all the damn stories I had heard weren't worth a PINT OF ****.

I don't know how to sail in a storm. The people who built my boat know
better than me

I don't say I'm right because I don't know but if you really have been
in a real storm and sailed successfully you can give advice. If you
haven't SHUT THE HELL UP

AND; "I'LL DRINK TO THAT!!!" I now go bare headed in a hove attitude
but pray I'll not get caught again

Ole Thom

Ketch storm tatics
 

Read the book again, and try to get the title right at least.

Cheers MC

Bobsprit wrote:

Honestly, have you ever, in your whole life ever sailed with storm sail
in a storm?
If you haven't, please don't offer hearsay advice.

The advice is from the book, Heavy Sailing Tactics.
No, I've not had much experience with a Ketch, but I plan to get some soon!

RB

Ketch storm tatics
 

Read the book again, and try to get the title right at least.

It's right in front of me. There a little pic of a the Jib and stormsail setup.

RB

Ketch storm tatics
 

And the title is? What is the bottom line conclusion?

Cheers MC

Bobsprit wrote:

Read the book again, and try to get the title right at least.

It's right in front of me. There a little pic of a the Jib and stormsail setup.

RB

Ketch storm tatics
 

And the title is? What is the bottom line conclusion?

That you were wrong.
Do you wish to debate sailing or book titles? Perhaps you'll have a measure of
success with the latter...

RB

Ketch storm tatics
 

What is the title?

Cheers MC

Bobsprit wrote:

And the title is? What is the bottom line conclusion?

That you were wrong.
Do you wish to debate sailing or book titles? Perhaps you'll have a measure of
success with the latter...

RB

Ketch storm tatics
 

Yes, the miz is bigger but the moments look similar -right?

Cheers MC

DSK wrote:

The navigator© wrote:


Why do you say that? I'd say the foretriangle matches the mizzen quite
well.


Lots of forces in play here, Navvie©. The horizontal distance (in two axis
as the boat heels) between the sails CE and the boat's CLR, the torque
developed by the hull & foils, etc etc.

If you're talking about Mari-Cha 4, it looks to me that the mizzen is far
bigger than the foretriangle.


If the C of E of the main matches the CLR (as it should for a
balanced ketch) then she will balance under miz and foresail.


Sure.

"In theory there's no difference between practice & theory. But in
practice, there is."

Not all ketches balance the way they should. Possibly due to different
priorities on the part of the designer, possibly by error, whatever.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Ketch storm tatics
 

The navigator© wrote:

Why do you say that? I'd say the foretriangle matches the mizzen quite
well.

Lots of forces in play here, Navvie©. The horizontal distance (in two axis
as the boat heels) between the sails CE and the boat's CLR, the torque
developed by the hull & foils, etc etc.

If you're talking about Mari-Cha 4, it looks to me that the mizzen is far
bigger than the foretriangle.

If the C of E of the main matches the CLR (as it should for a
balanced ketch) then she will balance under miz and foresail.

Sure.

"In theory there's no difference between practice & theory. But in
practice, there is."

Not all ketches balance the way they should. Possibly due to different
priorities on the part of the designer, possibly by error, whatever.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Ketch storm tatics
 

The navigator© wrote:

Yes, the miz is bigger but the moments look similar -right?

Doesn't look anywhere close to my eye, but they could be anyway.

Obviously a lot of very careful engineering went into this boat. The question
is, is balance under jib & mizzen on the list of design priorities, and how well
did they achieve it?

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Ketch storm tatics
 

Well I see it like this: Why not go for balance. If the main blew you
would not want a horribly unbalanced racing boat!

Cheers MC

DSK wrote:

The navigator© wrote:


Yes, the miz is bigger but the moments look similar -right?


Doesn't look anywhere close to my eye, but they could be anyway.

Obviously a lot of very careful engineering went into this boat. The question
is, is balance under jib & mizzen on the list of design priorities, and how well
did they achieve it?

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Ketch storm tatics
 

One cannot give advice with out knowing a bit about conditions. Wind speed,
wave action, local conditions, lee shore ect.
"Joe" wrote in message
om...
In a storm would you, if you had a ketch:

1. reef down the main and mizzen, drop the jib.
2. use just a tri sail on the main mast.
3. use a storm jib and a reefed mizzen.
4. just use a storm jib.
5. Use just a reefed main
6. Use a reefed main and a storm jib.

And why is a tri sail track offset on the main mast?

Is it just because you can raise the sail fast without un-bending the
main, or does it have something to do with shape.

How much, if any foil shape should a tri sail have?

And how do you best figure what size tri sail you should use?

And with a quick double reefing system, do you think a tri sail is
needed?

Thanks

Joe
MSV RedCloud

Ketch storm tatics
 

I'm far from being a Ketch Expert but it does seem to me that I've seen
more reduced sails on Ketches with reefed Main and doused Miz

The forsail and mizzen are more a Yawl set-up

For what it's worth (Not much) that seems to be the way I've seen it

OT

Ketch storm tactics
 

Nav,

She seemed like she was just trying to pound a hole in the water, when
trying make into the wind. The boat I had at the time was OB power and
was cavitating badly

She would gain some headway down the back off the oncoming wave then be
driven back be the next wave, she'd ride up and over, brake thru the
crest and fall back into the down side with a hell of a pounding.. When
I tried falling of a bit I clear the crest with a sickening snap roll
and landed back into the wave at crazy different angles.

When I turned downwind I was surfing to fast and catching the next wave
and damn near stopping and then taking the next wave on the stern. That
was when I rigged the drag with the doubled anchor line with the lunch
hook to keep it in the water. Worked for about 6 wave then the whole
thing came aboard, Luckily I seen it coming and dodged the anchor. I had
the barge boards in place, which kept the anchor out was the cabin. Got
the sails off, lashed the helm down and got in the cabin with the crew.
She had a traditional layout and we wedged ourselves between the cabin
bunks, sitting on the floor.

She didn't stay hove-to but laid ahull, which worried the hell out of me
because of all the tales of horror about 360 rolls but she took care of
herself and us for close to 18 hrs. I even think the motion improved but
that could have been because I was inside and not watching the waves

When we got in I took those storm sails off the boat, which was a
improvement right there. They were a PITA to store,

If it gets worst than a double reef I go bare head now. I've come home
under bare pole several times. I don't missed those stiff, hard to
manage heavy pieces of **** one single bit; AND. "I'LL DRINK TO THAT!!"

Ole Thom

P/S That's the first time I've told that story in 16 years and I'm not
telling it again!

Ketch storm tatics
 

Ketch storm tatics
 

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ...
#3, but you don't say what you mean by "storm."

By storm I mean, you switch from your journey to surviving.

#3 with the sails I have is my choice as well. I have a 20% storm jib
and a deep second reef in the mizzen. Perhaps Id leave the main up
and double reefed if running down wind to keep up with the waves.

However I do not have a tri sail. Number 4 might be just as good
holding her steady into the seas.


"Joe" wrote in message
om...
In a storm would you, if you had a ketch:

1. reef down the main and mizzen, drop the jib.
2. use just a tri sail on the main mast.
3. use a storm jib and a reefed mizzen.
4. just use a storm jib.
5. Use just a reefed main
6. Use a reefed main and a storm jib.

And why is a tri sail track offset on the main mast?

Is it just because you can raise the sail fast without un-bending the
main, or does it have something to do with shape.

How much, if any foil shape should a tri sail have?

And how do you best figure what size tri sail you should use?

And with a quick double reefing system, do you think a tri sail is
needed?

Thanks

Joe
MSV RedCloud

Ketch storm tatics
 

Ketch storm tatics
 

Joe,

Since I've spilled my guts about storm sailing, I'll say some more about
my lack of knowledge.

I learned that to weather a storm you really only get one good choice to
set-up before you're hit (I mean by a real blow; 50 and above) Don't go
half ass and figure you'll change if you have to. When you get hit,
YOU"LL BE DAMN LUCKY TO MOVE YOUR SILLY ASS AROUND. BREATHING AND
STAYING ABOARD WILL BE THE MAIN CONCERN. Guess right. Try to come up
with something that doesn't need to be tended to. It is more likely
you'll give out before your vessel does so give your boat a chance.

Good luck!!

At 77 yrs I don't venture on open water anymore. (Chicken) but even
inshore I keep my foul weather sailing as simple as possible. The
simplist is in the slip double tied, the next best is anchored in a cove
and battened down. If I can't use those first two, then I'll do what
ever is neccessary to get to a position to set up the first two
condition. I DON'T WANT TO STORM SAIL!

AND; "I'LL DRINK TO THAT!"

Ole Thom

Ketch storm tatics
 

At 77 yrs I don't venture on open water anymore. (Chicken) but even
inshore I keep my foul weather sailing as simple as possible.

Remember, if you died out there (and a good T-storm could kill you even in
protected waters) you'd die well and on your own terms.
A fine thing at any age.

RB

Ketch storm tatics
 

Given that, I think you should stay well away from your
wife's boat.

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
At 77 yrs I don't venture on open water anymore. (Chicken) but even
inshore I keep my foul weather sailing as simple as possible.

Remember, if you died out there (and a good T-storm could kill you even in
protected waters) you'd die well and on your own terms.
A fine thing at any age.

RB

Ketch storm tatics
 

As Bob knows, a journey begins with a single step, and
coincidentally survival does also.

"Joe" wrote in message
om...
"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
#3, but you don't say what you mean by "storm."

By storm I mean, you switch from your journey to surviving.

#3 with the sails I have is my choice as well. I have a 20% storm jib
and a deep second reef in the mizzen. Perhaps Id leave the main up
and double reefed if running down wind to keep up with the waves.

However I do not have a tri sail. Number 4 might be just as good
holding her steady into the seas.


"Joe" wrote in message
om...
In a storm would you, if you had a ketch:

1. reef down the main and mizzen, drop the jib.
2. use just a tri sail on the main mast.
3. use a storm jib and a reefed mizzen.
4. just use a storm jib.
5. Use just a reefed main
6. Use a reefed main and a storm jib.

And why is a tri sail track offset on the main mast?

Is it just because you can raise the sail fast without un-bending the
main, or does it have something to do with shape.

How much, if any foil shape should a tri sail have?

And how do you best figure what size tri sail you should use?

And with a quick double reefing system, do you think a tri sail is
needed?

Thanks

Joe
MSV RedCloud

Ketch storm tatics
 

At 77, he's already dead.

S.Simon


"Bobsprit" wrote in message ...
At 77 yrs I don't venture on open water anymore. (Chicken) but even
inshore I keep my foul weather sailing as simple as possible.

Remember, if you died out there (and a good T-storm could kill you even in
protected waters) you'd die well and on your own terms.
A fine thing at any age.

RB

Ketch storm tactics
 

Thanks for that Thom

If you are helming you can luff as you reach the crest. That slows the
leap off and also softens the crash .. You then bear away again to gain
speed.

Cheers MC

Thom Stewart wrote:

Nav,

She seemed like she was just trying to pound a hole in the water, when
trying make into the wind. The boat I had at the time was OB power and
was cavitating badly

She would gain some headway down the back off the oncoming wave then be
driven back be the next wave, she'd ride up and over, brake thru the
crest and fall back into the down side with a hell of a pounding.. When
I tried falling of a bit I clear the crest with a sickening snap roll
and landed back into the wave at crazy different angles.

When I turned downwind I was surfing to fast and catching the next wave
and damn near stopping and then taking the next wave on the stern. That
was when I rigged the drag with the doubled anchor line with the lunch
hook to keep it in the water. Worked for about 6 wave then the whole
thing came aboard, Luckily I seen it coming and dodged the anchor. I had
the barge boards in place, which kept the anchor out was the cabin. Got
the sails off, lashed the helm down and got in the cabin with the crew.
She had a traditional layout and we wedged ourselves between the cabin
bunks, sitting on the floor.

She didn't stay hove-to but laid ahull, which worried the hell out of me
because of all the tales of horror about 360 rolls but she took care of
herself and us for close to 18 hrs. I even think the motion improved but
that could have been because I was inside and not watching the waves

When we got in I took those storm sails off the boat, which was a
improvement right there. They were a PITA to store,

If it gets worst than a double reef I go bare head now. I've come home
under bare pole several times. I don't missed those stiff, hard to
manage heavy pieces of **** one single bit; AND. "I'LL DRINK TO THAT!!"

Ole Thom

P/S That's the first time I've told that story in 16 years and I'm not
telling it again!

Ketch storm tatics
 

At 77, he's already dead.


He sails more than you and has a better boat.

RB

Ketch storm tatics
 

"Bobsprit" wrote in message ...
At 77, he's already dead.

He sails more than you and has a better boat.

Coming from somebody who doesn't even own a boat
and which boat is in storage, this is rather humorous.

S.Simon

Ketch storm tatics
 

Ketch storm tatics
 

Lightning is only a hazard on those crummy,
rust bucket, steel boats. They draw it like
a lightning rod. Lightning doesn't even see
a GRP boat.

S.Simon


"Joe" wrote in message om...
Granted drowning might be the most peaceful way to go, but having your
head explode when hit by lighting might smart a bit.

Joe

Ketch storm tatics
 

wrote in message ...
Thom gets laid more, too.

BB

I won't argue that one. I can't figure it out but most
women don't seem to be sexually attracted to me.

I guess that's why God made prostitutes.

S.Simon

Ketch storm tatics
 

You're wrong on both counts. (maybe - depends
on how picky you're being.)

I happen to live in the lightning capital of the world.
I've seen more lightning strikes already than you
will see in your entire life.

I've weathered probably a dozen storms (gales, to be
technically correct - not tropical cyclone - I'm not playing
Beaufort here in case that's your angle.) at sea. I've
weathered two tropical storms and six hurricane aboard
but moored or anchored. Only an idiot gets caught at
sea in a tropical cyclone and I'm anything but an
idiot.

S.Simon




Donals Dilema wrote in message ...
On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 17:10:36 -0500, "Simple Simon"
wrote:

Lightning is only a hazard on those crummy,
rust bucket, steel boats. They draw it like
a lightning rod. Lightning doesn't even see
a GRP boat.

S.Simon

Bwaaahahahahahahahahahhaa!
You've never been in a storm at sea and have no clue about lightning
either!


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.