"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
P/S That's the first time I've told that story in 16 years and I'm not
telling it again!


You don't need to tell it again.


Most of the people who read it would not dare question your actions. We are
grateful that you shared your experience with us.


Thank you, OT. I've learned some things from your post.



Regards


Donal
--

Bwhahahahhahahaha. You are NUTS.

Cheers MC

Bobsprit wrote:

Tri sail all the way, baby! Storm jib and mizzen can work, but only on heavier
crab crushers.

You fail to include the severity of conditions in any case.

RB

(Bobsprit) wrote in message ...
Tri sail all the way, baby! Storm jib and mizzen can work, but only on heavier
crab crushers.

I have a crab crusher

You fail to include the severity of conditions in any case.


Lets say 40-70 knots steady, seas running 12- 18 ft with an occasional
20 footer.

I sail full sails in steady 20-30 without much worry, but once I get
into a steady 30+ I need to reef , 50-60 in big seas will put me in a
storm mode.



RB

You fail to include the severity of conditions in any case.

Joe wrote:
Lets say 40-70 knots steady, seas running 12- 18 ft with an occasional
20 footer.

I sail full sails in steady 20-30 without much worry, but once I get
into a steady 30+ I need to reef , 50-60 in big seas will put me in a
storm mode.

Joe, I don't think there is a single 'right answer.' The right answer(s) are whatever works best in the
particular situation.

Remember, the force of the wind is proportional to the square of it's velocity. In simple words this
means that if the wind doubles (say from 20 to 40) then it's force is quadrupled. So, IMHO using
regular sails reefed down for storm winds will result in premature stretching & shredding of those
sails. A storm jib & storm mizzen would be a good combination offering a way to balance the boat.

You might consider a pair of staysails, one for the main and one for the mizzen. No extra track on the
masts, easy to bend on, can be made to stand well above the deck to keep them out of the water, several
advantages. You can fly both and get more horsepower & ability to balance, or fly one on the main for
running off in really bad stuff, or fly one from the mizzen for close reaching.

The biggest problem I have seen in trying to handle boats in storm winds, is that the force of windage
increases greatly and makes the boat want to only go downwind. As the boat rises across the crests, the
wind hits extra hard and accelerates the boat downwind at the worst possible time relative to the
waves. The sails have to generate enough horsepower to counteract this, without overtaxing the boat's
rightning moment.

At some point, the boat simply cannot do anything except go downwind, and this is when bare poles +
drogue makes the most sense. However, trying to work on deck in these conditions is like trying to swim
upstream against Niagara Falls. That's why planning ahead is a big big part of seamanship.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

#3, but you don't say what you mean by "storm."

"Joe" wrote in message
om...
In a storm would you, if you had a ketch:

1. reef down the main and mizzen, drop the jib.
2. use just a tri sail on the main mast.
3. use a storm jib and a reefed mizzen.
4. just use a storm jib.
5. Use just a reefed main
6. Use a reefed main and a storm jib.

And why is a tri sail track offset on the main mast?

Is it just because you can raise the sail fast without un-bending the
main, or does it have something to do with shape.

How much, if any foil shape should a tri sail have?

And how do you best figure what size tri sail you should use?

And with a quick double reefing system, do you think a tri sail is
needed?

Thanks

Joe
MSV RedCloud

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ...
#3, but you don't say what you mean by "storm."

By storm I mean, you switch from your journey to surviving.

#3 with the sails I have is my choice as well. I have a 20% storm jib
and a deep second reef in the mizzen. Perhaps Id leave the main up
and double reefed if running down wind to keep up with the waves.

However I do not have a tri sail. Number 4 might be just as good
holding her steady into the seas.


"Joe" wrote in message
om...
In a storm would you, if you had a ketch:

1. reef down the main and mizzen, drop the jib.
2. use just a tri sail on the main mast.
3. use a storm jib and a reefed mizzen.
4. just use a storm jib.
5. Use just a reefed main
6. Use a reefed main and a storm jib.

And why is a tri sail track offset on the main mast?

Is it just because you can raise the sail fast without un-bending the
main, or does it have something to do with shape.

How much, if any foil shape should a tri sail have?

And how do you best figure what size tri sail you should use?

And with a quick double reefing system, do you think a tri sail is
needed?

Thanks

Joe
MSV RedCloud

As Bob knows, a journey begins with a single step, and
coincidentally survival does also.

"Joe" wrote in message
om...
"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
#3, but you don't say what you mean by "storm."

By storm I mean, you switch from your journey to surviving.

#3 with the sails I have is my choice as well. I have a 20% storm jib
and a deep second reef in the mizzen. Perhaps Id leave the main up
and double reefed if running down wind to keep up with the waves.

However I do not have a tri sail. Number 4 might be just as good
holding her steady into the seas.


"Joe" wrote in message
om...
In a storm would you, if you had a ketch:

1. reef down the main and mizzen, drop the jib.
2. use just a tri sail on the main mast.
3. use a storm jib and a reefed mizzen.
4. just use a storm jib.
5. Use just a reefed main
6. Use a reefed main and a storm jib.

And why is a tri sail track offset on the main mast?

Is it just because you can raise the sail fast without un-bending the
main, or does it have something to do with shape.

How much, if any foil shape should a tri sail have?

And how do you best figure what size tri sail you should use?

And with a quick double reefing system, do you think a tri sail is
needed?

Thanks

Joe
MSV RedCloud

Joe wrote:

In a storm would you, if you had a ketch:

1. reef down the main and mizzen, drop the jib.
2. use just a tri sail on the main mast.
3. use a storm jib and a reefed mizzen.
4. just use a storm jib.
5. Use just a reefed main
6. Use a reefed main and a storm jib.

Depends on the rig, depends on the conditions. Usually a mizzen that is
made for everyday sailing is not going to be tough enough to stand up to
use as a storm sail, reefed & used together with a jib.

But, being able to drop the main and sail under jib & mizzen as wind
increases is a good characteristic. Not all ketches will do it well.





And why is a tri sail track offset on the main mast?

Is it just because you can raise the sail fast without un-bending the
main, or does it have something to do with shape.

So that you can bend on the trysail before the storm, and keep sailing
with the regular main until you need to douse it. In storm conditions,
trying to unbend the mainsail and thread in the trysail is going to lead
to loss of crew or loss of sail at least.




How much, if any foil shape should a tri sail have?

Very little. It does need some camber, but not much. Probably a web site
that says, but I'd guess less than 10%, possibly around 5%.



And how do you best figure what size tri sail you should use?

Scaled to the boats displacement, righting moment, & lateral area.



And with a quick double reefing system, do you think a tri sail is
needed?

Yes. The trysail, or storm staysail, is for conditions that are worse than
you want your regular sails flying in.

Once I experimented with using a small boat's jib as a storm staysail. It
set nicely and was about the right area (60 SqFt on a 30' keel boat) but
shredded after about an hour in 40 ~ 50 knot winds.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Can you give an example?

Cheers MC

DSK wrote:

Not all ketches will do it well.

DSK wrote:
Not all ketches will do it well.


The navigator© wrote:
Can you give an example?

Sure.... any ketch that doesn't balance well under
jib & mizzen. It doesn't happen automagically,
y'know.

I can't say firsthand, but I suspect that Mari-Cha
4 doesn't balance at all under jib & mizzen. So
there!

DSK