"Shen44" wrote in message
...
Subject: Ferry Speeds
From: "Jonathan Ganz"

On the ocean. In the bay, shipping traffic, tankers
and the like do have stand on status and must be given
ground.

Not really. They do have the right to expect you not to impede their
passage,
but they are not necessarily "stand on", although because they are
expecting
you not to impede their passage, they will appear to act that way.

Not according to every single person I've ever heard speak on
the subject, including several Coasties. The tankers have stand on
status. They will not and cannot stop or maneuver much in the bay.
I don't know about expecting or not, but the CG says they have
status.


I've seen a freighter change course to avoid
a sailboat on the ocean... we were the sailboat, but
we were getting ready to head up and avoid her. They
must have had the rare lookout. :-)

Generally, the last one to see a target, among the "bridge team", is the
lookout .... took awhile to understand the why of this.
At sea, never expect a ship to maneuver for you (right or wrong).
Two main reasons:
1. In any kind of seaway, you may not be seen (right or wrong)
2. Experience has taught many that if there is a good deal of small boat
traffic around, the best bet is to claim "rule of GT" and maintain course
and
speed. You might **** one or two off, but you'll generally get through
without
confusing/ upsetting the many (right or wrong) If it's a single boat and
they
see it, you'll frequently see them maneuver, but generally at the last
moment,
because, again, experience has shown where small boats are concerned,
expect
the unexpected. (Hey! Let's take a close look at the big ship!!). (right
or
wrong).

Well, we try to get the hell out of Dodge if we have any indication
a freighter is headed our way... in the bay or out. :-)

Shen

Subject: Ferry Speeds
From: "Jonathan Ganz"
Date: 11/20/2003 09:36 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"Shen44" wrote in message
...
Subject: Ferry Speeds
From: "Jonathan Ganz"


Not according to every single person I've ever heard speak on
the subject, including several Coasties. The tankers have stand on
status. They will not and cannot stop or maneuver much in the bay.
I don't know about expecting or not, but the CG says they have
status.

You tweaked a memory. In SF Bay, there's at least one area which is an RNA and
small boats aren't allowed (around Pinole Shoal) and there may be others, but
generally, I believe you'll find that everyone's working under the "shall not
impede" rule. (I'd love to see some case history on this).
We are talking a legal point here that has room for confusion regarding "stand
on" status ..... it's a part of the "Shall Not Impede" rule that many have
never liked.
I would like to say, you're correct, because the ship shall not be impeded, he
has stand on status, but G that status is not absolute.

Shen

Hmmm... interesting point... I'm wondering when would be
a situation when that status isn't absolute... in the bay that is?

"Shen44" wrote in message
...
You tweaked a memory. In SF Bay, there's at least one area which is an RNA
and
small boats aren't allowed (around Pinole Shoal) and there may be others,
but
generally, I believe you'll find that everyone's working under the "shall
not
impede" rule. (I'd love to see some case history on this).
We are talking a legal point here that has room for confusion regarding
"stand
on" status ..... it's a part of the "Shall Not Impede" rule that many have
never liked.
I would like to say, you're correct, because the ship shall not be
impeded, he
has stand on status, but G that status is not absolute.

Shen

Well, (almost) no status is absolute because in (almost) any real life situation there are
complexities not explicitly mentioned in the rules. For example, there is no explicit
mention of three vessel situations in the rules.

However, the phrase "shall not impede" is a bit more vague than most of the ColRegs. Most
casual commentators, writing simplified rules for novices, will say that "shall not
impede" means the same as "keep out of the way off" that implies give-way status.
However, this is not the intent of the wording. "Shall not impede the safe passage" means
that a vessel which might ordinarily have stand-on status, must leave the other vessel a
reasonable amount of room to pass. The stand-on/give-way relationship still holds, but
now the stand-on vessel may be required to alter course to accommodate the other vessel.

The meaning of this, in practice, depends a lot on the actual situation. For instance,
Rule 9(b) says that a vessel under 20 meters or a sailboat shall not impede a vessel that
can only navigate within a channel - but it doesn't say anything about this vessel - it
may be smaller and less restricted than the sailboat. If the vessel is actually more
maneuverable than the sailboat, it does not need a "protection" from 9(b). However, if
the give-way vessel is an oil tanker, it may be on the only reasonable course, and any
alteration would be impeding its safe passage. Thus, the master of the sailboat has to
appreciate the handling characteristics of the other vessel.

Since its rather unlikely that the novice small boat operator will understand the needs of
the large ship, for these boats, interpreting "shall not impede" as meaning "give-way" is
appropriate. However, it doesn't mean that a smaller power vessel becomes stand-on WRT a
sailboat because its in a fairway. Thus, the status of vessels implied by the various
terms of Rules 9 and 10 are not as absolute as the "stand-on/give-way" status of Rule 18.

There has been much confusion over the use of "impede;" the IMO tried to clarify this in
Rule 8 with some added clauses - their comments on this make it clear that "shall not
impede" is not as binding as "shall stay out of the way of," but the words of Rule 8 often
sound like gibberish. Fortunately, professional mariners seems to understand it.






"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Hmmm... interesting point... I'm wondering when would be
a situation when that status isn't absolute... in the bay that is?

"Shen44" wrote in message
...
You tweaked a memory. In SF Bay, there's at least one area which is an RNA
and
small boats aren't allowed (around Pinole Shoal) and there may be others,
but
generally, I believe you'll find that everyone's working under the "shall
not
impede" rule. (I'd love to see some case history on this).
We are talking a legal point here that has room for confusion regarding
"stand
on" status ..... it's a part of the "Shall Not Impede" rule that many have
never liked.
I would like to say, you're correct, because the ship shall not be
impeded, he
has stand on status, but G that status is not absolute.

Shen

Very good dissertation. I'm glad you gave a good
explanation of shall not impede. One thing you did
not mention, however, is shall not impede applies
in all conditions of visibility. This means there
is give-way/stand-on vessel status in restricted
visibility.

S.Simon


"Jeff Morris" wrote in message ...
Well, (almost) no status is absolute because in (almost) any real life situation there are
complexities not explicitly mentioned in the rules. For example, there is no explicit
mention of three vessel situations in the rules.

However, the phrase "shall not impede" is a bit more vague than most of the ColRegs. Most
casual commentators, writing simplified rules for novices, will say that "shall not
impede" means the same as "keep out of the way off" that implies give-way status.
However, this is not the intent of the wording. "Shall not impede the safe passage" means
that a vessel which might ordinarily have stand-on status, must leave the other vessel a
reasonable amount of room to pass. The stand-on/give-way relationship still holds, but
now the stand-on vessel may be required to alter course to accommodate the other vessel.

The meaning of this, in practice, depends a lot on the actual situation. For instance,
Rule 9(b) says that a vessel under 20 meters or a sailboat shall not impede a vessel that
can only navigate within a channel - but it doesn't say anything about this vessel - it
may be smaller and less restricted than the sailboat. If the vessel is actually more
maneuverable than the sailboat, it does not need a "protection" from 9(b). However, if
the give-way vessel is an oil tanker, it may be on the only reasonable course, and any
alteration would be impeding its safe passage. Thus, the master of the sailboat has to
appreciate the handling characteristics of the other vessel.

Since its rather unlikely that the novice small boat operator will understand the needs of
the large ship, for these boats, interpreting "shall not impede" as meaning "give-way" is
appropriate. However, it doesn't mean that a smaller power vessel becomes stand-on WRT a
sailboat because its in a fairway. Thus, the status of vessels implied by the various
terms of Rules 9 and 10 are not as absolute as the "stand-on/give-way" status of Rule 18.

There has been much confusion over the use of "impede;" the IMO tried to clarify this in
Rule 8 with some added clauses - their comments on this make it clear that "shall not
impede" is not as binding as "shall stay out of the way of," but the words of Rule 8 often
sound like gibberish. Fortunately, professional mariners seems to understand it.






"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Hmmm... interesting point... I'm wondering when would be
a situation when that status isn't absolute... in the bay that is?

"Shen44" wrote in message
...
You tweaked a memory. In SF Bay, there's at least one area which is an RNA
and
small boats aren't allowed (around Pinole Shoal) and there may be others,
but
generally, I believe you'll find that everyone's working under the "shall
not
impede" rule. (I'd love to see some case history on this).
We are talking a legal point here that has room for confusion regarding
"stand
on" status ..... it's a part of the "Shall Not Impede" rule that many have
never liked.
I would like to say, you're correct, because the ship shall not be
impeded, he
has stand on status, but G that status is not absolute.

Shen

Negative, former master.

It is true that the "shall not impede" rules are in affect in all conditions of
visibility, but as always, you've missed the important point. "Shall no impede" is NOT
the same as "give-way." There are similarities, to be sure, and in the extreme case they
are effectively the same. But the governing rules use very different language and mean
different things. In fact, Rule 8(f)iii stresses that the stand-on/give-way relationship
has not been altered - a "not to be impeded" vessel may still be the give-way vessel.

Further, its important to note that the "vessel not to be impeded" is not "stand-on" -
that is, it is not required to hold course and speed. In fact, it may well be required to
alter course. All that "shall not impede" requires is that the vessel is given sufficient
room for safe passage. The stand-on/give-way relationship implies that the stand-on
vessel should not have to alter course at all.

You have raised an interesting issue that the Narrow Channel and TSS Rules are in affect
in all conditions of visibility. It means that in heavy fog a sailboat should not cross a
channel if it is not able to determine if it is clear. This should be easy in a lightly
used channel, where you might only hear one fog signal, but would be impossible in a busy
channel without radar.


"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
Very good dissertation. I'm glad you gave a good
explanation of shall not impede. One thing you did
not mention, however, is shall not impede applies
in all conditions of visibility. This means there
is give-way/stand-on vessel status in restricted
visibility.

S.Simon


"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
Well, (almost) no status is absolute because in (almost) any real life situation there
are
complexities not explicitly mentioned in the rules. For example, there is no explicit
mention of three vessel situations in the rules.

However, the phrase "shall not impede" is a bit more vague than most of the ColRegs.
Most
casual commentators, writing simplified rules for novices, will say that "shall not
impede" means the same as "keep out of the way off" that implies give-way status.
However, this is not the intent of the wording. "Shall not impede the safe passage"
means
that a vessel which might ordinarily have stand-on status, must leave the other vessel
a
reasonable amount of room to pass. The stand-on/give-way relationship still holds,
but
now the stand-on vessel may be required to alter course to accommodate the other
vessel.

The meaning of this, in practice, depends a lot on the actual situation. For
instance,
Rule 9(b) says that a vessel under 20 meters or a sailboat shall not impede a vessel
that
can only navigate within a channel - but it doesn't say anything about this vessel -
it
may be smaller and less restricted than the sailboat. If the vessel is actually more
maneuverable than the sailboat, it does not need a "protection" from 9(b). However,
if
the give-way vessel is an oil tanker, it may be on the only reasonable course, and any
alteration would be impeding its safe passage. Thus, the master of the sailboat has
to
appreciate the handling characteristics of the other vessel.

Since its rather unlikely that the novice small boat operator will understand the
needs of
the large ship, for these boats, interpreting "shall not impede" as meaning "give-way"
is
appropriate. However, it doesn't mean that a smaller power vessel becomes stand-on
WRT a
sailboat because its in a fairway. Thus, the status of vessels implied by the various
terms of Rules 9 and 10 are not as absolute as the "stand-on/give-way" status of Rule
18.

There has been much confusion over the use of "impede;" the IMO tried to clarify this
in
Rule 8 with some added clauses - their comments on this make it clear that "shall not
impede" is not as binding as "shall stay out of the way of," but the words of Rule 8
often
sound like gibberish. Fortunately, professional mariners seems to understand it.






"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Hmmm... interesting point... I'm wondering when would be
a situation when that status isn't absolute... in the bay that is?

"Shen44" wrote in message
...
You tweaked a memory. In SF Bay, there's at least one area which is an RNA
and
small boats aren't allowed (around Pinole Shoal) and there may be others,
but
generally, I believe you'll find that everyone's working under the "shall
not
impede" rule. (I'd love to see some case history on this).
We are talking a legal point here that has room for confusion regarding
"stand
on" status ..... it's a part of the "Shall Not Impede" rule that many have
never liked.
I would like to say, you're correct, because the ship shall not be
impeded, he
has stand on status, but G that status is not absolute.

Shen

Jeff,

Great explanation. I'm going to use it if you don't mind.

Jonathan

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
Well, (almost) no status is absolute because in (almost) any real life
situation there are
complexities not explicitly mentioned in the rules. For example, there is
no explicit
mention of three vessel situations in the rules.

However, the phrase "shall not impede" is a bit more vague than most of
the ColRegs. Most
casual commentators, writing simplified rules for novices, will say that
"shall not
impede" means the same as "keep out of the way off" that implies give-way
status.
However, this is not the intent of the wording. "Shall not impede the
safe passage" means
that a vessel which might ordinarily have stand-on status, must leave the
other vessel a
reasonable amount of room to pass. The stand-on/give-way relationship
still holds, but
now the stand-on vessel may be required to alter course to accommodate the
other vessel.

The meaning of this, in practice, depends a lot on the actual situation.
For instance,
Rule 9(b) says that a vessel under 20 meters or a sailboat shall not
impede a vessel that
can only navigate within a channel - but it doesn't say anything about
this vessel - it
may be smaller and less restricted than the sailboat. If the vessel is
actually more
maneuverable than the sailboat, it does not need a "protection" from 9(b).
However, if
the give-way vessel is an oil tanker, it may be on the only reasonable
course, and any
alteration would be impeding its safe passage. Thus, the master of the
sailboat has to
appreciate the handling characteristics of the other vessel.

Since its rather unlikely that the novice small boat operator will
understand the needs of
the large ship, for these boats, interpreting "shall not impede" as
meaning "give-way" is
appropriate. However, it doesn't mean that a smaller power vessel becomes
stand-on WRT a
sailboat because its in a fairway. Thus, the status of vessels implied by
the various
terms of Rules 9 and 10 are not as absolute as the "stand-on/give-way"
status of Rule 18.

There has been much confusion over the use of "impede;" the IMO tried to
clarify this in
Rule 8 with some added clauses - their comments on this make it clear that
"shall not
impede" is not as binding as "shall stay out of the way of," but the words
of Rule 8 often
sound like gibberish. Fortunately, professional mariners seems to
understand it.






"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Hmmm... interesting point... I'm wondering when would be
a situation when that status isn't absolute... in the bay that is?

"Shen44" wrote in message
...
You tweaked a memory. In SF Bay, there's at least one area which is an
RNA
and
small boats aren't allowed (around Pinole Shoal) and there may be
others,
but
generally, I believe you'll find that everyone's working under the
"shall
not
impede" rule. (I'd love to see some case history on this).
We are talking a legal point here that has room for confusion
regarding
"stand
on" status ..... it's a part of the "Shall Not Impede" rule that many
have
never liked.
I would like to say, you're correct, because the ship shall not be
impeded, he
has stand on status, but G that status is not absolute.

Shen

Use at your own risk! If you really want to get to the bottom of these issues, read
Farwell's. However, they deal almost entirely with large vessel interactions so you have
to use your judgment on how court rulings would apply to small boats.

One thing about SF Bay - the TSS zones that are outside are continued in as Restricted
Zones. Your local Coast Pilot has descriptions of the various TSS and restricted zones.
In addition, the port captain has rather broad authority to add addition safety zones as
needed.

http://chartmaker.ncd.noaa.gov/nsd/c...ed-v1-Ch02.pdf



"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Jeff,

Great explanation. I'm going to use it if you don't mind.

Jonathan

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
Well, (almost) no status is absolute because in (almost) any real life
situation there are
complexities not explicitly mentioned in the rules. For example, there is
no explicit
mention of three vessel situations in the rules.

However, the phrase "shall not impede" is a bit more vague than most of
the ColRegs. Most
casual commentators, writing simplified rules for novices, will say that
"shall not
impede" means the same as "keep out of the way off" that implies give-way
status.
However, this is not the intent of the wording. "Shall not impede the
safe passage" means
that a vessel which might ordinarily have stand-on status, must leave the
other vessel a
reasonable amount of room to pass. The stand-on/give-way relationship
still holds, but
now the stand-on vessel may be required to alter course to accommodate the
other vessel.

The meaning of this, in practice, depends a lot on the actual situation.
For instance,
Rule 9(b) says that a vessel under 20 meters or a sailboat shall not
impede a vessel that
can only navigate within a channel - but it doesn't say anything about
this vessel - it
may be smaller and less restricted than the sailboat. If the vessel is
actually more
maneuverable than the sailboat, it does not need a "protection" from 9(b).
However, if
the give-way vessel is an oil tanker, it may be on the only reasonable
course, and any
alteration would be impeding its safe passage. Thus, the master of the
sailboat has to
appreciate the handling characteristics of the other vessel.

Since its rather unlikely that the novice small boat operator will
understand the needs of
the large ship, for these boats, interpreting "shall not impede" as
meaning "give-way" is
appropriate. However, it doesn't mean that a smaller power vessel becomes
stand-on WRT a
sailboat because its in a fairway. Thus, the status of vessels implied by
the various
terms of Rules 9 and 10 are not as absolute as the "stand-on/give-way"
status of Rule 18.

There has been much confusion over the use of "impede;" the IMO tried to
clarify this in
Rule 8 with some added clauses - their comments on this make it clear that
"shall not
impede" is not as binding as "shall stay out of the way of," but the words
of Rule 8 often
sound like gibberish. Fortunately, professional mariners seems to
understand it.






"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Hmmm... interesting point... I'm wondering when would be
a situation when that status isn't absolute... in the bay that is?

"Shen44" wrote in message
...
You tweaked a memory. In SF Bay, there's at least one area which is an
RNA
and
small boats aren't allowed (around Pinole Shoal) and there may be
others,
but
generally, I believe you'll find that everyone's working under the
"shall
not
impede" rule. (I'd love to see some case history on this).
We are talking a legal point here that has room for confusion
regarding
"stand
on" status ..... it's a part of the "Shall Not Impede" rule that many
have
never liked.
I would like to say, you're correct, because the ship shall not be
impeded, he
has stand on status, but G that status is not absolute.

Shen

One other thing to consider here, is that there are two situations you
are discussing which involve "shall not impede" ... a narrow channel and
a TSS.
There can be differences to both. In the case of the narrow channel,
there's a good chance that the ship is limited to to the confines of the
channel, for whatever maneuvers it can or may attempt.
However, this does not always apply to TSS's. In a TSS, there's a good
chance that the ship can maneuver fairly freely to avoid (which may and
can take them outside the TSS), so that if push comes to shove, they can
maneuver as in Rule 8 (which is why the writers of the rules have not
made the "stand on " condition, absolute, as Shen has stated).
If you take SF Bay, there are a number of TSS areas where some ships
could physically go outside the "channel" ..... I would not expect them
to and don't doubt that unless an emergency they won't, as VTS will have
a fit, but again the legal aspects would take over in case of collision.
I fully agree this is an area that is confusing. My opinion FWIW,
consider yourself (the small boater) as the one required to give way,
and ignore the possible legal stand on ramifications which would come up
in court.
The most important issue, is to avoid the collision.

otn

ps At one time when TSS areas where coming into being, this was a USCG
"gotcha" question. "You are in a TSS and see a small power driven vessel
crossing your bow from stbd to port on a collision course. Which vessel
is stand on and which must give way?"
The answers were set up so that it was obvious that even though the
small boat was not to impede your passage, you were still obligated to
maneuver, since you were the giveway vessel in a crossing situation.

I think it is very clear to everone who reads this thread
how confusing things become when exceptions to Rules
that favor motorboats over those higher in the pecking
order are included in the Rules. It becomes even worse
when the courts replete with totally ignorant judges
become involved. The COLREGS are like the Constitution.

They are what they are and should not be *******ized
in the courts any more than the U.S. Constitution.

The shall not impede rule is easy to understand on its
own merits. One need not have a judge or lawyer
explaing what the word 'impede' means. All that
is needed is a dictionary. If a vessel can be impeded
in a narrow channel it can also be impeded on the
high seas. Even an idiot can grasp this basic concept.

Shall not impede as set forth in Rule 8 is clear and
consise and clearly covers situations not in narrow
channels.

8 (f)
(i) A vessel which, by any of these rules, is required
not to impede the passage or safe passage of another
vessel shall when required by the circumstances of
the case, take early action to allow sufficient sea
room for the safe passage of the other vessel.

(ii) A vessel required not to impede the passage or
safe passage of another vessel is not relieved of
this obligation if approaching the other vessel so
as to involve risk of collision and shall, when taking
action, have full regard to the action which may be
required by the rules of this part.

(iii) A vessel the passage of which is not to be
impeded remains fully obliged to comply with the
rules of this part when the two vessels are approaching
one another so as to involve risk of collision.

The language of this Rule makes it abundantly clear
that it is addressing broader situations than the
narrow channels specific rule.

S.Simon













"otnmbrd" wrote in message link.net...
One other thing to consider here, is that there are two situations you
are discussing which involve "shall not impede" ... a narrow channel and
a TSS.
There can be differences to both. In the case of the narrow channel,
there's a good chance that the ship is limited to to the confines of the
channel, for whatever maneuvers it can or may attempt.
However, this does not always apply to TSS's. In a TSS, there's a good
chance that the ship can maneuver fairly freely to avoid (which may and
can take them outside the TSS), so that if push comes to shove, they can
maneuver as in Rule 8 (which is why the writers of the rules have not
made the "stand on " condition, absolute, as Shen has stated).
If you take SF Bay, there are a number of TSS areas where some ships
could physically go outside the "channel" ..... I would not expect them
to and don't doubt that unless an emergency they won't, as VTS will have
a fit, but again the legal aspects would take over in case of collision.
I fully agree this is an area that is confusing. My opinion FWIW,
consider yourself (the small boater) as the one required to give way,
and ignore the possible legal stand on ramifications which would come up
in court.
The most important issue, is to avoid the collision.

otn

ps At one time when TSS areas where coming into being, this was a USCG
"gotcha" question. "You are in a TSS and see a small power driven vessel
crossing your bow from stbd to port on a collision course. Which vessel
is stand on and which must give way?"
The answers were set up so that it was obvious that even though the
small boat was not to impede your passage, you were still obligated to
maneuver, since you were the giveway vessel in a crossing situation.