OOPS ....Forgot one:

What if the sailboat comes out of the fog (and can see the motor vessel) and
finds itself overtaking the motor vessel, because the motor vessel has reduced
speed to bare steerageway?

Shen ....

There you go again with your silly specifics to try to
disprove a rule. Because there are exceptions does
not make the rule invalid. This is just plain common sense.

The only likely situation where the sailboat would NOT be
the stand-on vessel is if it found itself behind and overtaking
the motorvessel when it got close enough to be in sight
of the motor vessel. What likelihood of that ever happening
is there when we all know it would be rare indeed for
a ship to be going less than five knots. Remember, we
are talking about small cruising sailboats here not some
radical racing catamaran or something that goes twenty
or thirty knots. Of course these would be required to
slow to a safe speed while my cruiser is not required to
slow to a safe speed because she is already going slow
and safe.

But, your continued lame arguments don't cut the mustard.

You need to refute the facts in order to prevail. Thus far
you have been unable to do so. Here are the facts again.

Fact one: In or near an area of restricted visibility vessels
are required to sound signals specific to the
vessel in question. Motor vessels sound one
signal when underway and those vessels above
them in the pecking order sound another and
different signal. This is an ABBREVIATED
pecking order.

Fact two: When two vessels proceeding in restricted
visibility get close enough to each other that
they are in-sight (visually) they must then follow
the in-sight rules where the FULL pecking order
is mandated.

Fact three: These two vessels, although operating in or near
an area of restricted visibility, become a stand-on
and a give-way vessel as long as they remain in
sight of one another.

Fact four: There is, indeed, a stand-on and a give-way vessel
in or near an area of restricted visibility.

Chew on that for a while and let's see a rational argument to
refute it logically. It cannot be done because the logic is faultless.

S.Simon - logic wins out every time.


"Shen44" wrote in message ...
Subject: Perception
From: "Simple Simon"


In a fog, as soon as vessels concerned come within sight of one
another the sailboat is the stand-on vessel with respect to the
motor vessel

Not necessarily ..... what if the sailboat can see the motor vessel, but the
motor vessel can't see the sail vessel? What if the motor vessel is in a TSS or
narrow channel? What if both vessels are so close, that BOTH vessels need to
take action to avoid collision?

This means in a fog (when in sight) the pecking order applies.

Stupid statement

This loophole in the Rules is something that seems to go right
over the heads of the group's tugboat captains. They cannot
fathom the fact that 'in sight' also exists in restricted visibility
as in a fog. Since 'in sight' exists in a fog then the pecking order
exists in a fog. This is so logical that it cannot be argued.

Yet the fools continue to argue it . . .

S.Simon


Sheesh .... the above, is the rambling of some beginner, without a clue.
The term used in the rules is restricted visibility (due to whatever cause) and
refers to situations where the vessels are NOT in sight of each other.
Come on, Neal.... you've been trying to wiggle out of this mess, to no avail,
for so long and in so many ways, you've reduced yourself to a point of
nonsensical rambling.


Shen

You are correct. However, what you say is equally true of sailing vessels. There are
"giveway vessels" in restricted visibility. The ARE NO standon vessels.

To the numbers, one more time: A sailboat doing 8 knots travels about 14 feet per second.
In 5 seconds, it will go 70 feet. In thick fog, visibility may be down to 50 feet or
less. A large vessel might be invisible to the sailboat (and vice versa) until it is
within a few seconds travel time. Regardless of how slow the powerboat is going, a
collision in inevitable. This is why the Colregs do not give the sailboat standon status
in this situation.

--
-jeff
"Assumptions shall not be made on the basis of scanty information" ColRegs, Rule 7(c)


"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
When not in sight in a fog one must rely upon the different
sound signals given by motor vessels as opposed to the
remainder of the pecking order. Any motor vessel, upon
hearing the fog signal of another vessel above it in the
pecking order, must prepare to give way the moment
said vessels come in sight of each other. This means
there is, indeed, a give way vessel in restricted visibility.

S.Simon


"The_navigator©" wrote in message
...
What about when not in sight?

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:
In a fog, as soon as vessels concerned come within sight of one
another the sailboat is the stand-on vessel with respect to the
motor vessel

This means in a fog (when in sight) the pecking order applies.

This loophole in the Rules is something that seems to go right
over the heads of the group's tugboat captains. They cannot
fathom the fact that 'in sight' also exists in restricted visibility
as in a fog. Since 'in sight' exists in a fog then the pecking order
exists in a fog. This is so logical that it cannot be argued.

Yet the fools continue to argue it . . .

S.Simon


"The_navigator©" wrote in message
...

Who is the stand on vessel in fog?

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:

Joe,

I'm surprised at you making an ignorant statement like you could
care less about the COLREGS. Everybody who cares about safe
and sane operation of boats of all kinds would do well to learn the
COLREGS. Even if you aren't concerned about safety you should
be concerned about liability. Knowing and following the COLREGS
will eventually save you far more trouble than the little time spent
avoiding acquiring this valuable knowledge.

I recommend you visit my website and read the Novice Lessons
where I give a very good and thorough explaination in layman's
terms of the COLREGS.

http://www.homestead.com/captneal/lesson.html


S.Simon - knows the COLREGS better than any other individual
here and better than all the tugboat captains combined
which includes Rick, Otnmbrd, Morris, and Shen44.


"Joe" wrote in message
om...


"katysails" wrote in message
...


So the gamers should respect the people and the vessel with a goal and
or a purpose.

Racers are entoute and do have a goal and purpose. It is just not YOUR
goal or purpose. They do have to follow COLREGS, though, in the process
even though some forget that.

Katy,

If a man is mowing a lawn, would you expect him to stop so you can
play baseball? He's trying to feed his kids. Yet you are just playing
a game.

If a man is sweeping a sidewalk, would you have him stop so you can
Scotty can play jacks?

You may have the right to demand him to stop, But the whole
neighborhood will suffer a dirty sidewalk because you are selfish.

I could care less about the COLREGS.

It's not about the law, it's about the respect.

Joe
MSV RedCloud

That's where you're wrong as I proved to Capt. Shen44
(and Cabin Boy Otnmbrd).

Here's what I presented him with and he has gone away sulking.

Fact one: In or near an area of restricted visibility vessels
are required to sound signals specific to the
vessel in question. Motor vessels sound one
signal when underway and those vessels above
them in the pecking order sound another and
different signal. This is an ABBREVIATED
pecking order.

Fact two: When two vessels proceeding in restricted
visibility get close enough to each other that
they are in-sight (visually) they must then follow
the in-sight rules where the FULL pecking order
is mandated.

Fact three: These two vessels, although operating in or near
an area of restricted visibility, become a stand-on
and a give-way vessel as long as they remain in
sight of one another.

Fact four: There is, indeed, a stand-on and a give-way vessel
in or near an area of restricted visibility.

S.Simon - correct again as usual



"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ...
You are correct. However, what you say is equally true of sailing vessels. There are
"giveway vessels" in restricted visibility. The ARE NO standon vessels.

Obviously you've never seen fog... just a low cloud bank. In real fog you
might not see the bow of your boat. 60 foot visibility is a 'normal' fog
bank up my way.... they get way thicker than that.

CM

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
| Jeff,
|
| Back in the old days some of the schooners could indeed
| proceed at a good clip (clipper ship, get it?). I'm surprised
| you think the recent ruling that ALL vessels slowing down
| was because of anything other than a proliferation of motor
| vessels becoming such a hazard that the very safety of
| even large, fast sailing ships was in danger. The bottom
| line is only those vessels who are going fast must slow
| down. Those already going slow need not slow down
| and these include small cruising yacht restricted by
| their hull speed.
|
| The fact remains there are two different sound signals
| one for motor vessels and another for all vessels above
| them in the pecking order. These signals alone shout
| out loudly and clearly "PECKING ORDER" and
| pecking order means stand-on and give-way vessels.
|
| You always seem to fall back on your lame argument
| about a fog so thick that you can't see your own bow
| let alone another ship. Well, tough! One instance does
| not make a Rule. My instance of a normal fog in which
| ships become visible to one another and hence must
| follow the in-sight rules even though they are in or near
| an area of restricted visibility is all that's needed to prove
| there IS a pecking order and hence a give-way and
| stand-on vessel in restricted visibility.
|
| The logic here is unassailable making the statement true
| till proven false and thus far you and the other tugboat
| captain's lame (by the nature of their specificity) arguments
| have come up short.
|
| S.Simon - irrefuteable
|
|
|
| "Jeff Morris" wrote in message
m...
| Its an interesting comment, one that we've discussed before. It may
| actually have some validity in very light fog, which might be all Neal
has
| any experiance in. However, it is the opinion of all of the
commentators,
| the IMO, and the courts, that if there is any doubt as to the
conditions,
| one must assume you are NOT in sight of one another.
|
| In thick fog (which has always been stipulated in these discussions)
there
| will not be sufficient time for a powerboat to avoid collision if a
sailboat
| assumes it is "standon"and continues at hull speed. This is why the
rules
| stipulate that ALL VESSELS must slow when hearing a fog signal.
|
| An interesting point is that until 1972 this rule only applied to
| powerboats. Previous versions of the ColRegs (from about 1890 and 1948)
had
| similar wording but only applied it to power, not sail. Obviously, the
IMO
| decided that it was important that ALL VESSELS slow down in the fog when
| hearing a fog signal. They also eliminated the concept of "moderate
speed"
| and replaced it with "safe speed."
|
| -jeff
|
|
|
| "Simple Simon" wrote in message
| ...
| In a fog, as soon as vessels concerned come within sight of one
| another the sailboat is the stand-on vessel with respect to the
| motor vessel
|
| This means in a fog (when in sight) the pecking order applies.
|
| This loophole in the Rules is something that seems to go right
| over the heads of the group's tugboat captains. They cannot
| fathom the fact that 'in sight' also exists in restricted visibility
| as in a fog. Since 'in sight' exists in a fog then the pecking order
| exists in a fog. This is so logical that it cannot be argued.
|
| Yet the fools continue to argue it . . .
|
| S.Simon
|
|
| "The_navigator©" wrote in message
| ...
| Who is the stand on vessel in fog?
|
| Cheers MC
|
| Simple Simon wrote:
| Joe,
|
| I'm surprised at you making an ignorant statement like you could
| care less about the COLREGS. Everybody who cares about safe
| and sane operation of boats of all kinds would do well to learn
the
| COLREGS. Even if you aren't concerned about safety you should
| be concerned about liability. Knowing and following the COLREGS
| will eventually save you far more trouble than the little time
spent
| avoiding acquiring this valuable knowledge.
|
| I recommend you visit my website and read the Novice Lessons
| where I give a very good and thorough explaination in layman's
| terms of the COLREGS.
|
| http://www.homestead.com/captneal/lesson.html
|
|
| S.Simon - knows the COLREGS better than any other individual
| here and better than all the tugboat captains
combined
| which includes Rick, Otnmbrd, Morris, and Shen44.
|
|
| "Joe" wrote in message
| om...
|
| "katysails" wrote in message
| ...
|
| So the gamers should respect the people and the vessel with a
goal
| and
| or a purpose.
|
| Racers are entoute and do have a goal and purpose. It is just
not
| YOUR
| goal or purpose. They do have to follow COLREGS, though, in the
| process
| even though some forget that.
|
| Katy,
|
| If a man is mowing a lawn, would you expect him to stop so you can
| play baseball? He's trying to feed his kids. Yet you are just
playing
| a game.
|
| If a man is sweeping a sidewalk, would you have him stop so you
can
| Scotty can play jacks?
|
| You may have the right to demand him to stop, But the whole
| neighborhood will suffer a dirty sidewalk because you are selfish.
|
| I could care less about the COLREGS.
|
| It's not about the law, it's about the respect.
|
| Joe
| MSV RedCloud
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|

And obviously YOU'RE too stupid to realize that fog,
thick or thin, is but one of the examples of restricted
visibility. Heavy rain can cause restricted visibility, dust
and smog can cause restricted visibility, sand storms can
restrict visibility and there is restricted visibility in a maritime
environment most everywhere in the core of a hurricane.
Even smoke from forest fires can cause restricted visibility.

You idiots relying on a worst case scenario to prove your
point will continue to come up way, way short of the mark.

My argument has been and is that stand-on and give-way
vessels exist in or near restricted visibility and I have proven
it.

Your stinking fog so thick you can't see the bow of your
wreck of a vessel does not change my argument for unusually
thick fog is but one instance of restricted visibility that
generally is an exception to the rule. The very purpose
of having vessels slow to a safe speed is so when they
come within sight of one another they will be going at
a safe speed so they can avoid a collision and follow the
in-sight Rules. It's sort of like being a safe driver on the
road at night and not going so fast that you cannot stop
in the distance your headlights shine.

PUTZ!

S.Simon - the Master of 'em all.


"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message ...
Obviously you've never seen fog... just a low cloud bank. In real fog you
might not see the bow of your boat. 60 foot visibility is a 'normal' fog
bank up my way.... they get way thicker than that.

CM

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
| Jeff,
|
| Back in the old days some of the schooners could indeed
| proceed at a good clip (clipper ship, get it?). I'm surprised
| you think the recent ruling that ALL vessels slowing down
| was because of anything other than a proliferation of motor
| vessels becoming such a hazard that the very safety of
| even large, fast sailing ships was in danger. The bottom
| line is only those vessels who are going fast must slow
| down. Those already going slow need not slow down
| and these include small cruising yacht restricted by
| their hull speed.
|
| The fact remains there are two different sound signals
| one for motor vessels and another for all vessels above
| them in the pecking order. These signals alone shout
| out loudly and clearly "PECKING ORDER" and
| pecking order means stand-on and give-way vessels.
|
| You always seem to fall back on your lame argument
| about a fog so thick that you can't see your own bow
| let alone another ship. Well, tough! One instance does
| not make a Rule. My instance of a normal fog in which
| ships become visible to one another and hence must
| follow the in-sight rules even though they are in or near
| an area of restricted visibility is all that's needed to prove
| there IS a pecking order and hence a give-way and
| stand-on vessel in restricted visibility.
|
| The logic here is unassailable making the statement true
| till proven false and thus far you and the other tugboat
| captain's lame (by the nature of their specificity) arguments
| have come up short.
|
| S.Simon - irrefuteable
|
|
|
| "Jeff Morris" wrote in message
m...
| Its an interesting comment, one that we've discussed before. It may
| actually have some validity in very light fog, which might be all Neal
has
| any experiance in. However, it is the opinion of all of the
commentators,
| the IMO, and the courts, that if there is any doubt as to the
conditions,
| one must assume you are NOT in sight of one another.
|
| In thick fog (which has always been stipulated in these discussions)
there
| will not be sufficient time for a powerboat to avoid collision if a
sailboat
| assumes it is "standon"and continues at hull speed. This is why the
rules
| stipulate that ALL VESSELS must slow when hearing a fog signal.
|
| An interesting point is that until 1972 this rule only applied to
| powerboats. Previous versions of the ColRegs (from about 1890 and 1948)
had
| similar wording but only applied it to power, not sail. Obviously, the
IMO
| decided that it was important that ALL VESSELS slow down in the fog when
| hearing a fog signal. They also eliminated the concept of "moderate
speed"
| and replaced it with "safe speed."
|
| -jeff
|
|
|
| "Simple Simon" wrote in message
| ...
| In a fog, as soon as vessels concerned come within sight of one
| another the sailboat is the stand-on vessel with respect to the
| motor vessel
|
| This means in a fog (when in sight) the pecking order applies.
|
| This loophole in the Rules is something that seems to go right
| over the heads of the group's tugboat captains. They cannot
| fathom the fact that 'in sight' also exists in restricted visibility
| as in a fog. Since 'in sight' exists in a fog then the pecking order
| exists in a fog. This is so logical that it cannot be argued.
|
| Yet the fools continue to argue it . . .
|
| S.Simon
|
|
| "The_navigator©" wrote in message
| ...
| Who is the stand on vessel in fog?
|
| Cheers MC
|
| Simple Simon wrote:
| Joe,
|
| I'm surprised at you making an ignorant statement like you could
| care less about the COLREGS. Everybody who cares about safe
| and sane operation of boats of all kinds would do well to learn
the
| COLREGS. Even if you aren't concerned about safety you should
| be concerned about liability. Knowing and following the COLREGS
| will eventually save you far more trouble than the little time
spent
| avoiding acquiring this valuable knowledge.
|
| I recommend you visit my website and read the Novice Lessons
| where I give a very good and thorough explaination in layman's
| terms of the COLREGS.
|
| http://www.homestead.com/captneal/lesson.html
|
|
| S.Simon - knows the COLREGS better than any other individual
| here and better than all the tugboat captains
combined
| which includes Rick, Otnmbrd, Morris, and Shen44.
|
|
| "Joe" wrote in message
| om...
|
| "katysails" wrote in message
| ...
|
| So the gamers should respect the people and the vessel with a
goal
| and
| or a purpose.
|
| Racers are entoute and do have a goal and purpose. It is just
not
| YOUR
| goal or purpose. They do have to follow COLREGS, though, in the
| process
| even though some forget that.
|
| Katy,
|
| If a man is mowing a lawn, would you expect him to stop so you can
| play baseball? He's trying to feed his kids. Yet you are just
playing
| a game.
|
| If a man is sweeping a sidewalk, would you have him stop so you
can
| Scotty can play jacks?
|
| You may have the right to demand him to stop, But the whole
| neighborhood will suffer a dirty sidewalk because you are selfish.
|
| I could care less about the COLREGS.
|
| It's not about the law, it's about the respect.
|
| Joe
| MSV RedCloud
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|

ROFL You insist on going through life with one foot firmly nailed to the
floor.
If BOTH vessels are in sight of each other then visual rules apply. If
only one or neither vessel is in sight of the other, then the rules for
restricted visibility apply and BOTH vessels must navigate with extreme
caution until they are clear of each other.
Toot all the whistle signals you want .... there are rules for in sight
and rules for not in sight .... they are different and until your simple
brain can grasp this simple concept, you have been, are, and forever
will be a danger to yourself and all others, in restricted visibility.

Simple Simon wrote:
I admitted no such thing.

When not in sight in a fog one must rely upon the different
sound signals given by motor vessels as opposed to the
remainder of the pecking order. Any motor vessel, upon
hearing the fog signal of another vessel above it in the
pecking order, must prepare to give way the moment
said vessels come in sight of each other. This means
there is, indeed, a give way vessel in restricted visibility.

ROFL how you come up with some of these conclusions, is amazing......

otn

Then what you're claiming is there is never an in-sight
circumstance in restricted visibility? He he, gotcha!

If you answer in the infirmative you are patently incorrect
as I have proven already.

It is clear that in-sight situations occur on a regular basis
in restricted visibility. You said yourself that in-sight rules
apply when vessels are in sight. Therefore, since in-sight
rules require full adherance to the pecking order rules it
follows that oftentimes in restricted visibility there is a
pecking order. When there is a pecking order there is
a stand-on vessel and a give-way vessel.

You tugboat captains have insisted there is no such thing
as a stand-on vessel in or near an area of restricted
visibility. The above paragraph proves you all incorrect.

Accept it and live with it! I was right, I am right and I
forever shall remain right (unless and until they clarify this
discrepancy in the Rules).

S.Simon


"otnmbrd" wrote in message ink.net...
ROFL You insist on going through life with one foot firmly nailed to the
floor.
If BOTH vessels are in sight of each other then visual rules apply. If
only one or neither vessel is in sight of the other, then the rules for
restricted visibility apply and BOTH vessels must navigate with extreme
caution until they are clear of each other.
Toot all the whistle signals you want .... there are rules for in sight
and rules for not in sight .... they are different and until your simple
brain can grasp this simple concept, you have been, are, and forever
will be a danger to yourself and all others, in restricted visibility.

Simple Simon wrote:
I admitted no such thing.

When not in sight in a fog one must rely upon the different
sound signals given by motor vessels as opposed to the
remainder of the pecking order. Any motor vessel, upon
hearing the fog signal of another vessel above it in the
pecking order, must prepare to give way the moment
said vessels come in sight of each other. This means
there is, indeed, a give way vessel in restricted visibility.

ROFL how you come up with some of these conclusions, is amazing......

otn

otnmbrd wrote:

If BOTH vessels are in sight of each other then visual rules apply. If
only one or neither vessel is in sight of the other, then the rules
for restricted visibility apply and BOTH vessels must navigate with
extreme caution until they are clear of each other.

How does the vessel that can see the other know that the other can see it?


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

It is the responsibility of BOTH vessels to keep a lookout
by eyes and ears at all times. If in doubt blow the danger/
doubt signal to get their attention or contact them on the VHF
and request they get their heads out of their asses. Big ships
are notorious for the helmspeople sleeping on the job or with
with their faces stuck into girlie magazines.

S.Simon


"Wally" wrote in message ...
otnmbrd wrote:

If BOTH vessels are in sight of each other then visual rules apply. If
only one or neither vessel is in sight of the other, then the rules
for restricted visibility apply and BOTH vessels must navigate with
extreme caution until they are clear of each other.

How does the vessel that can see the other know that the other can see it?


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.