The Bent Boom
 

"Capt. Mooron" wrote:

.....When you can't identify your own vessel in a mooring field of look
alikes...
the point becomes moot. I can readily Spot a Hans Christian or a Cabo Rico
on a mooring field or at the dock.

Actually, those boats are also mass-produced and not particularly original.
Their design is derived from the gaggle of Colin Archer knock-offs that have
been popular since the mid 1970s or so.

Those lines are timeless and exquisite.
They define grace and power.

There is a Herreshoff Nereia ketch anchored in North West Creek this week. Now
*that* boat is timeless and exquisite. A faux Colin Archer isn't, particularly.


Unless you are racing in a class... why would
you want a boat that looks like every other off the mold knock off??

Because they are cheaper than custom boats... a LOT cheaper. Also, it appeals to
the herd instinct which most human beings have.

OTOH, look at the issue from a utilitarian standpoint. If a boat sails well, is
practical to own, and capable of meeting the demands of the owner, what's wrong
with stamping it out of a mold so lots of other folks can have one, too?

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

The Bent Boom
 

OTOH, look at the issue from a utilitarian standpoint. If a boat sails well, is
practical to own, and capable of meeting the demands of the owner, what's wrong
with stamping it out of a mold so lots of other folks can have one, too?

Poor Mooron doesn't even know he has a cookie cutter boat!

RB

The Bent Boom
 

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
| Excuse me but I have told you before that the J30 you seem to love is
| considered a light air dog.
|
| Only as a racer, dummy. We're not talking racing. Can you ever switch
gears?
| As a cruiser, the J30 is a good light air boat.

Bwahahahahahahahahahaaaa!!!!

CM

The Bent Boom
 

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
| OTOH, look at the issue from a utilitarian standpoint. If a boat sails
well, is
| practical to own, and capable of meeting the demands of the owner, what's
wrong
| with stamping it out of a mold so lots of other folks can have one,
too?
|
| Poor Mooron doesn't even know he has a cookie cutter boat!

Oh sure I do.... but try and find more than 6 of them in North America
Bob.... Bwahahahahahahahaaa!!

CM

The Bent Boom
 

"DSK" wrote in message

| Actually, those boats are also mass-produced and not particularly
original.
| Their design is derived from the gaggle of Colin Archer knock-offs that
have
| been popular since the mid 1970s or so.

Have you ever seen Cabo Rico 38... no way it's a Collin Archer knock off.
Hans Christian .. sure but let's face it.. it's an excellent boat.

| There is a Herreshoff Nereia ketch anchored in North West Creek this week.
Now
| *that* boat is timeless and exquisite. A faux Colin Archer isn't,
particularly.

Some Collin Archer designs are just butt ugly. I'll agree with that.

| Because they are cheaper than custom boats... a LOT cheaper. Also, it
appeals to
| the herd instinct which most human beings have.

Nothin' wrong with that either Doug... I never claimed there was. I stated
it was plain and ordinary... which they are. Bob goes on and on and on about
what amounts to as just another plug in a production line of 50,000. Big
Deal!

| OTOH, look at the issue from a utilitarian standpoint. If a boat sails
well, is
| practical to own, and capable of meeting the demands of the owner, what's
wrong
| with stamping it out of a mold so lots of other folks can have one, too?

Nothing at all.... but trying to sell a mule as a thoroughbred is just
plain stupid.

CM

The Bent Boom
 

"Capt. Mooron" wrote:


Have you ever seen Cabo Rico 38... no way it's a Collin Archer knock off.

No, it's a vaguely L.Francis Herreshoff-like pirate boat knock off for people
who want to brag that their boat is more expesnive than a Cheoy Lee.

Sorry, doesn't do much for me. They could still be very nice boats from the
standpoint of comfort & practicality, but to my eye they are not exceptional.
But then, I've been spoiled.....

BTW Cabo Rico did built at least one heavy double ender in the 32 ~ 35 foot
range, not sure what it was.



Hans Christian .. sure but let's face it.. it's an excellent boat.

They have a reputation of being well built, but the ones I've seen seem to have
about the same number of problems as other less bragged about boats. Never
inspected one closely so I can't comment on build quality.




| There is a Herreshoff Nereia ketch anchored in North West Creek this week.
Now
| *that* boat is timeless and exquisite. A faux Colin Archer isn't,
particularly.

Some Collin Archer designs are just butt ugly. I'll agree with that.

And some are cheesy fakes. The Valiant is a non-cheesy fake, Bob Perry designed
it partially to show that all the baggy-wrinkle and gunport wanna-bees would
jump on a fin keel light displacement boat if it looked piratey enough. He even
said so in print! But it happens to be a well built and smart sailing boat,
other than the lack of reserve bouyancy aft....




| Because they are cheaper than custom boats... a LOT cheaper. Also, it
appeals to
| the herd instinct which most human beings have.

Nothin' wrong with that either Doug... I never claimed there was. I stated
it was plain and ordinary... which they are. Bob goes on and on and on about
what amounts to as just another plug in a production line of 50,000. Big
Deal!

Agreed.



| OTOH, look at the issue from a utilitarian standpoint. If a boat sails
well, is
| practical to own, and capable of meeting the demands of the owner, what's
wrong
| with stamping it out of a mold so lots of other folks can have one, too?

Nothing at all.... but trying to sell a mule as a thoroughbred is just
plain stupid.

heh heh not as stupid as buying a mule and running around bragging about your
new thoroughbred...

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

The Bent Boom
 

Am I missing something? The only listing for a C&C 32 is 165. However, you're using the
ratings for 1997. If you go to the current list, for 2003
http://www.yralis.org/2003/base_ratings.html
you've been down-rated to 171. Further, this is only when flying a spinnaker. Without,
your sister ships are racing at 183.


"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
Somewhere the C&C32 may be rated at 152, but in the light air LIS they are
rated 171.

rated 159-166 here, Jeff.
Sorry.
http://www.pipeline.com/~wayneb/phrflis.htm#j

RB

The Bent Boom
 

No, you're the person trying to prove your boat speed by using PHRF ratings. I just point
out that your new boat and your old boat are racing in your area with the same handicap.

Further, two Nonsuch 30's, generally considered light air dogs, and not very good for
round the buoy racing, are actually racing with a much lower handicap than your boat does.

And even the Nordica 30 isn't that far off.

All you've done is showed that your boat might not be as fast as you keep claiming it is.



"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
And you'd race even with your old P30.

So, Jeff...you think a Pearson 30 is faster than a C&C 32???

RB

The Bent Boom
 

Oh sure I do.... but try and find more than 6 of them in North America

You own a failed design, just like Loco. There are very few Expresses around as
well.

RB

The Bent Boom
 

No, you're the person trying to prove your boat speed by using PHRF ratings. I
just point

Oh, so then you agree with me. Thanks.

RB

The Bent Boom
 

The Captains Nemesis wrote:


Hmmm fact is that heavy boats actually do better in light air.

Agreed, with the added qualifier that heavy boats *can* do well in light air, but
not always.


Once you get them moving their momentum will carry them thru dead
patches generating aparent.
Unfortunalely the skill to do this is not available to some.

And it's enough to make your teeth sweat, gaining practice in that skill!

That's why I alway wish everyone

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

The Bent Boom
 

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
| Oh sure I do.... but try and find more than 6 of them in North America
|
| You own a failed design, just like Loco. There are very few Expresses
around as
| well.

Bwahahahahahahahaaa..... lets do an archieve search shall we?
Bob you're acting like a spoiled kid..... ;-)

CM

The Bent Boom
 

I haven't agreed with anything. You just seem to think PHRF is an absolute speed rating.
However, your local race committee rates their C&C 32's particularly slow - slower than
most other boats over 30 feet. Slower than every Benneteau over 28.5 feet. Slower than
most of the C&C 27's. Slower than a Cat-30 with the tall rig, and all larger Catalina's.
Slower than every Hunter over 30 feet. Slower than all the Nonsuch's. Slower than the
Pearson's and Rangers over 30 feet. Slower than Sabres down to 30 feet. Slower than
almost every Tartan down to 30 feet. And its hardly worth mentioning that you're slower
than every J, X, Mumm, Soverel, Express, etc.

So what boat is slower than a C&C 32? A number of boats 30 feet and less will be a few
seconds slower. And there are a few isolated boats that got special handicaps because of
a very limited sail inventory, etc.

But it looks like the C&C 32 is virtually the slowest boat over 30 feet in Long Island
Sound.

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
No, you're the person trying to prove your boat speed by using PHRF ratings. I
just point

Oh, so then you agree with me. Thanks.

RB

The Bent Boom
 

Only as a racer, dummy. We're not talking racing. Can you ever switch gears?
As a cruiser, the J30 is a good light air boat.

ROIFLMAO.... So a loaded down J30 ready for a week long cruise is somehow a
better performer than a race ready J30 in the same air. You are truly a dimwit
putz who knows nothing about boats.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
Trains are a winter sport

The Bent Boom
 

rated 159-166 here, Jeff.
Sorry.
http://www.pipeline.com/~wayneb/phrflis.htm#j

Can't you read your own page of proof. Your like a bad lawyer. I only see
165.


S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
Trains are a winter sport

The Bent Boom
 

But it looks like the C&C 32 is virtually the slowest boat over 30 feet in
Long Island Sound.

But he said he did 11kts! Aparently the matrix is not LIS.


S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
Trains are a winter sport

The Bent Boom
 

You own a failed design, just like Loco. There are very few Expresses around
as
well.

Duh, like every other consumer item as quality and price go up you do see
less of the item in question.
BTW I believe the way to spell it would be Express's.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
Trains are a winter sport

The Bent Boom
 

Duh, like every other consumer item as quality and price go up you do see
less of the item in question.

That's odd. At my club there are Pacific Seacraft, C&C, Pearson, Valiant,
Island Packet, J-Boat, Sweden Yachts, X Yachts, Fisher, Vindo, Bristol,
Hughes......But NO Express 30 or 35!
Must be TOO high quality to mix with the above!

Bwahahahahahahaha!

RB

The Bent Boom
 

ROIFLMAO.... So a loaded down J30 ready for a week long cruise is somehow a
better performer than a race ready J30 in the same air.


That's a pretty dumb post, Loco. The raced J30 would have 4 more people on it
weighing 600-800 lbs combined. Do you load up 800 lbs of water and hot dogs for
a week long trip? make it a 1000 lbs. Does your boat become a slug?
Oh, okay!

RB

The Bent Boom
 

That's a pretty dumb post, Loco. The raced J30 would have 4 more people on
it
weighing 600-800 lbs combined. Do you load up 800 lbs of water and hot dogs for
a week long trip? make it a 1000 lbs. Does your boat become a slug?
Oh, okay!

Duh nice try but a week long cruise would have 30gal of water, food, clothing,
a portable TV, can goods, beer, soda, etc. etc. etc.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
Trains are a winter sport

The Bent Boom
 

Duh nice try but a week long cruise would have 30gal of water, food, clothing,
a portable TV, can goods, beer, soda, etc. etc. etc.

So all of that stuff weighs so much more than a racing crew that you're boat
becomes a slug? Carry twice the water (60 gallons) at around 500lbs. Add beer,
food and a TV...still not more than the racing crew. But lets add 400 lbs of
cracker Jacks...now how badly will your boat be effected?
Seriously, a week's supplies won't kill a J30's performance or an Express 30
for that matter. They'll still be "performance cruisers" in every respect,
beating most others.
C'mon!

RB

The Bent Boom
 

That's a pretty dumb post, Loco. The raced J30 would have 4 more people on
it
weighing 600-800 lbs combined.

The "racing crew" is also movable balast and improves performance. For example
it does not cause the pitching for one thing that a weeks worth of cruising
gear does. Get over it. Your post was stupid.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
Trains are a winter sport

The Bent Boom
 

RB,

Once again you show very little knowledge of cruising or racing. Along
with more water, a cruiser will carry a dingy, probably a plow anchor or
at least a larger anchor than a racer, Ice, sleeping bags, maybe a TV
and VCR, Pots, Dutch oven, Dishes, booze, oars for the dink, fishing
gear, crab pots, land nets, books, charts, propane tanks, BBQ's, full
fuel tanks, etc. These are the things that Racers remove.

Have you ever seen a racer with cockpit cushions. with storm sails. Have
you ever seen a race top off his fuel tanks before a race or hook-up
dingy outboard to the stern pulpit, Rig a bimini or a wind scoop

There is a real weight difference when a boat is rigged for racing or
for cruising

Open your eye and observe the real world of sailing. It would be more
productive than setting up phony Photo Ops of schackles on docking
Cleats with brand new spliced lines.

Make an effort to adjusting and living in the world as it exists.

Prove you wrong? Cripes it usually doesn't take more than two of your
own posting and you do it for us.

Ole Thom

The Bent Boom
 

The "racing crew" is also movable balast and improves performance. For example
it does not cause the pitching for one thing that a weeks worth of cruising
gear does. Get over it. Your post was stupid.

So you're saying that your boats performance edge is ruined when loaded up for
a cruise.
That's what I thought you said!

Idiot! Backed into your own corner again!

RB

The Bent Boom
 

"Thom Stewart" wrote in message
...
Prove you wrong? Cripes it usually doesn't take more than two of your
own posting and you do it for us.

heh heh
Thanks, OT. I enjoyed that.


Regards


Donal
--

The Bent Boom
 

Once again you show very little knowledge of cruising or racing. Along
with more water, a cruiser will carry a dingy, probably a plow anchor or
at least a larger anchor than a racer, Ice, sleeping bags, maybe a TV
and VCR, Pots, Dutch oven, Dishes, booze, oars for the dink, fishing
gear, crab pots, land nets, books, charts, propane tanks, BBQ's, full
fuel tanks, etc.

for a week long cruise???? Oh, okay!!!

Bwahahahahahahahahaa!

RB

The Bent Boom
 

That's odd. At my club there are Pacific Seacraft, C&C, Pearson, Valiant,
Island Packet, J-Boat, Sweden Yachts, X Yachts, Fisher, Vindo, Bristol,
Hughes......But NO Express 30 or 35!

Not odd at all. C&Cs, J Boats, Pearsons are Chevys. There's at least 1
Pacific Seacraft, Island Packet, Bristol everywhere you go. As far as a Hughes
what the hell is it and the Vindo who cares.
The X-Yachts boat is the only cool one in the bunch.

S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
Trains are a winter sport

The Bent Boom
 

So you're saying that your boats performance edge is ruined when loaded up
for
a cruise.
That's what I thought you said!

Idiot! Backed into your own corner again!

Don't think so. I'd never get caught in a corner. I wasn't talking about my
boat or my cruising style only the average boat and the J30 in particular.
Plus I didn't even mention half the stuff the other poster mentioned. Your
original comment that a J30 outfitted for cruising would be faster than one
ready to waste will go down as one off the dumbest posts of the decade.


S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
Trains are a winter sport

The Bent Boom
 

Your
original comment that a J30 outfitted for cruising would be faster than one
ready to waste will go down as one off the dumbest posts of the decade.

My comment was nothing of the sort. Try reading it again!

RB

The Bent Boom
 

And you know, without actually doing the numbers, I think Bubbles may
be close to correct.
Take off 5 or 6 bodies then fill the tanks and load on a weeks food,
and displ would be about the same.

I am correct, but Loco is also correct when he states that the "bodies"
represent a performance aid rather than imobile cargo.
Still, my main point stands.

RB

The Bent Boom
 

As far as a Hughes
what the hell is it and the Vindo who cares.
The X-Yachts boat is the only cool one in the bunch.

Like I said, you know nada about boats. The Hughes is a fine S&S design. The
Vindo...well you know what that is.
I've sailed both. You've sailed neither. Today I sailed a Freedom 36.
As far as boat-by-boat experience goes, you're not even close to me. I've got
far more experience after just a few years!

RB

The Bent Boom
 

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
| Once again you show very little knowledge of cruising or racing. Along
| with more water, a cruiser will carry a dingy, probably a plow anchor or
| at least a larger anchor than a racer, Ice, sleeping bags, maybe a TV
| and VCR, Pots, Dutch oven, Dishes, booze, oars for the dink, fishing
| gear, crab pots, land nets, books, charts, propane tanks, BBQ's, full
| fuel tanks, etc.
|
| for a week long cruise???? Oh, okay!!!

Bob... my boat carries almost all that plus an Avon 6 man Offshore Liferaft
[80lbs], 200 lbs of tools and enough food to last for a week.... as standard
gear. Throw 4 to 6 people with gear on top of that to fill out the weight.

Even at cruising weight... Overproof would kick Alien's sorry butt in any
wind on any Point!!!

CM

The Bent Boom
 

Even at cruising weight... Overproof would kick Alien's sorry butt in any
wind on any Point!!!

Oh, Okay, Mooron.
I can't kick you after that sorry situation you outlined.
Your boat is FAST. Like a ROCKET! Faster than any C&C32, even if handicap says
otherwise.
Enjoy.

RB

The Bent Boom
 

This is a very strange thread, because it would never occur to a real cruiser to take a
J30 out for a week. (I know its been done many times, but this is not real cruising.)

My water tank alone is 700 pounds - add another 200 in reserves. Fuel is over 300. I
always carry three anchors and four rodes. Dinghy in davits. 50 to 100 pounds of reading
material. TV/VCR, a dozen tapes. I don't carry much ice because I have a freezer. At
least 100 pounds of tools, another 100 in spare parts. Several deck chairs, two tables.
Several water floats. 5 fire extinguishers. Offshore and inshore FWG. Full cookware -
pots, pressure cooker, coffee roaster & grinder, etc. 20 pounds of kitty litter, 20
pounds of dog food. And I won't even go into my kid's Playmobil and America Girl toys.

Actually, when you think of the extras for the kid, and the extras for the pets, that
alone equals the weight of two extra crew members.

I think it would be safe to say that I could lighten by 1500 pounds in a few hours just by
hauling away stuff not bolted down. If I had any desire to race, I'd be doing that, and
more.

And this doesn't consider how much the boat could be lightened in construction - the new
"Express" version is 2000 pounds lighter before commissioning.

Now I know that its possible to cruise "light," and for a few days around LIS you don't
need any extra water or fuel, you can eat ashore every night, you hardly need a change of
cloths. But when I go out I often don't have a firm plan on where we're going, or when
the next fuel stop might be. If we don't go ashore (or aren't near a town) we can pull a
steak out of the freezer or grill a chicken. If something breaks we can fix it without
spending a day searching the town for a spare.

-jeff


"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
Once again you show very little knowledge of cruising or racing. Along
with more water, a cruiser will carry a dingy, probably a plow anchor or
at least a larger anchor than a racer, Ice, sleeping bags, maybe a TV
and VCR, Pots, Dutch oven, Dishes, booze, oars for the dink, fishing
gear, crab pots, land nets, books, charts, propane tanks, BBQ's, full
fuel tanks, etc.

for a week long cruise???? Oh, okay!!!

Bwahahahahahahahahaa!

RB

The Bent Boom
 

How can you judge Nutsy?

It might mean something to the group if you ever stayed out longer than
three days.

How in the hell would you know what a cruiser would used for a weeks
cruise. Especially some one who would get out of the Sound and into
water where they could eat the fish and clams (By the way,add a clam
rake to that List)

Even you should carry a couple of beach chairs so the next time you're
on Eton Neck you can spend some time getting sun on SAND CITY ( By the
way, add some beach blankets to that list).

Most cruisers cook their meals on board or on the beach. They don't go
ashore at Port Jeff and eat in a restaurant ( Or McDonald's) Add a
gasoline can to that list for the dingy motor

Out here in the Northwest, right now the spotted shrimp are running.
They are down about 200 ft (Add a shrimp trap and 300 ft of Poly Line
and a few cans of Salmon flavored Cat Food to the list) I don't think
you will ever see 200 feet Depth where you sail. You have to get about
15 miles off shore. That would have made your trip to NO WHERE complete.
Oh well, there is always next year or the year after.

By the way, you don't have to sail any place or anyway to please me.
Where you sail, when you sail, how you sail is your business. No body
else's. That is acceptable. BUT___ don't try tell people how to cruise
that have been doing it for years when you haven't done it yet!!!

And: "I'LL DRINK TO THAT!" A Manhattan straight up! Save the ice!

Ole Thom

The Bent Boom
 

Oh come on now.... you asked why I wasn't out sailing... you wanted the
truth.

Don't cut me any slack about it... I certainly wasn't holding back prior...
and I won't from here on in.

Handicaps are crap... indicators of probable potential! I'm good enough to
easily overcome a few PHRF points you might have. The Sailcalc numbers show
Overproof to have better SA/Disp Ratio.... and my boat has the same motion
you mentioned evident on Marc's boat.... like a Freight Train.
Bwahahahahahahahaaaa!!!

Face it sucker.... Overproof would kick Alien's sorry butt!! Matter of
fact we could switch boats and I'd still beat you.

CM


"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
| Even at cruising weight... Overproof would kick Alien's sorry butt in any
| wind on any Point!!!
|
| Oh, Okay, Mooron.
| I can't kick you after that sorry situation you outlined.
| Your boat is FAST. Like a ROCKET! Faster than any C&C32, even if handicap
says
| otherwise.
| Enjoy.
|
| RB

The Bent Boom
 

This is a very strange thread, because it would never occur to a real cruiser
to take a
J30 out for a week. (I know its been done many times, but this is not real
cruising.)

My friend cruises his J30 all over. He sails it to Block, around LI and weeks
at a time on the Jersey Coast. He does most of his eating aboard. I can't
imagine why a real cruiser wouldn't take a J30 someplace, should he/she be bent
in that direction. It's a nicely done cabin, lots of room for a couple and
their stuff and is fun to sail. I imagine the Express 30 is also a fun cruiser.

Capt RB

The Bent Boom
 

"Bobsprit" wrote in message

| I am correct, but Loco is also correct when he states that the "bodies"
| represent a performance aid rather than imobile cargo.
| Still, my main point stands.

Ack... Ar-r-r-r-r-r-g-g-g-h-h-hh... My heart! Oh my Gawd!! Did Bob just
admit someone else might have a valid point. I see a bright light at the end
of the tunnel...

CM

The Bent Boom
 

How in the hell would you know what a cruiser would used for a weeks
cruise.

We spent a week aboard Ghost last season. We loaded her up and sailed mainly
along the Con. coast. Our longest time aboard Alien this summer was just 4
days, but we were aboard the whole time. In the Spring/summer we're doing
Martha's Vineyard. I guess that'll really upset everyone!
Sorry, Thom. My point about the J30 is 100% correct, no matter what you try to
twist it into.

RB

The Bent Boom
 

Overproof to have better SA/Disp Ratio.... and my boat has the same motion
you mentioned evident on Marc's boat.... like a Freight Train.

Okay, Mooron. Like I said, you have a fast boat!

RB