|
shopping pains
Diesel Pros:
more reliable more power high output alternator much quieter safer fuel much better economy hot water heater Outboard Pros: Less weight Less drag (they can be lifted) You lose cockpit lockers, but can space below they can be easily removed for replacement you can carry a third as spare or dinghy engine lower cost The biggest thing against the outboards is the lack of electrical generation. We would have needed some type of genset - either an gas portable, or a built in diesel. The adds a third engine to maintain, and in the latter case we would then have would need to carry two types of fuel. My second thoughts usually center around the newer very quiet gas gensets from Honda, the fact that the price difference would have bought at lot of solar panels and wind generators, and did we really need a freezer? On the other hand, the dull roar of a diesel loafing along is a lot easier to take than the scream of an outboard working hard. -jeff "NH_/)_" wrote in message m... option was diesel or outboard (I chose diesel, and still wonder if it was for the best.) nice :) is there any reason why? NH_/)_ "Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ... My boat was "special made" but that is very different from being "custom made.". For instance, the primary option was diesel or outboard (I chose diesel, and still wonder if it was for the best.) Also, the smaller aft cabin comes completely unfinished, so there is a wide variation there - the common choice is a desk and fold down berth. I got a freezer and bunk. Others have a "dive den" or workbench. After that comes the options that you'd see on most production boats - instrumentation, cockpit canvas, stove top or oven, microwave, inverter, extra deck hardware, deck washdown, windlass, fabric choices etc.. We had special instructions for the sailmaker; we asked for extra handholds; we got a Lavac head. I researched microwaves a bit and found one that was very efficient, so I asked for that. I found out they bought 5 of them to get a better price, so that 4 other buyers had to live with my "customization." I would have to say the majority of problems that we had were with non-standard installations, such as the freezer and head. The real issue is how many are made by the yard. When mine was built they were doing about a dozen a year, so I had their attention for a month - actually it was a six month process, but you know what I mean. A higher output yard means less extra customization and less special attention. BTW, the construction pictures on my web site were taken only a few hours after we made the final commitment - they had started construction on "spec" and guessed they we (or whoever would get it) would want the diesel. More often they have a backlog of up to a year. -- -jeff www.sv-loki.com "The sea was angry that day, my friend. Like an old man trying to send back soup at the deli." P.S. One unique customization they did was a cat box built into a locker. Much appreciated by the Feline-American members of the crew. "NH_/)_" wrote in message m... Jeff? most cats are special made right? I mean they are all diff. made to order. or are they made by production standards? yours was special made? NH_/)_ "Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ... The big problem in defending the Catamaran side of the multi vs. mono discussions is that there are simply very few choices of cats in the low end. While there are numerous possibilities in monos for under $50K, the entry for multihulls is much higher. For instance, if you're looking for a cat less than 10 years old and over 32 feet, you might get a Gemini for as low as $70, but a more seaworthy Prout would probably be over $100k. If you go back much further, you find cats that are not as well designed, and have spent too much time in the tropics under charter. On the other hand, there are numerous examples of well designed monohulls that are 20-30 years old and can be had at very reasonable prices. However, if you're in the market for a newer boat, the modern cats are more competitively priced. For instance, 42 foot good mono, roughly 5 years old, will cost between $150 and $220, depending on the brand etc. You'll find roughly the same price range in 36 foot catamarans, which have the same space & speed, or more. -jeff "DSK" wrote in message ... Except for a few Chris White designs, I have yet to see a cruising cat that was designed for cruising (ie a small number of people aboard long term) rather than chartering or weekend partying (not that there's anything wrong with that). Jeff Morris wrote: Have you been on a newer PDQ36? They are certainly not built for chartering, and a large number of owners have done extensive cruising. I stand corrected.... Actually I have been on a couple of PDQs. Should have said "most" not "all." The PDQ trawler cats are really nice too. 3 sails in shallow water So will a properly designed mono. Are you saying that any monohull with a draft over 3 feet is not properlly designed? From my point of view, and for most U.S. East Coast waters, yes. At least it's all mud & sand...... 3 can't use a windvane Why not? Apparent wind varies tremendously (as it will on a fast monohull). A windvane will often make such a boat bear away and speed up until it's 60 degrees off course, then wander back and forth in that same range. 4 poor performance in chop (also very noisy) So have a lot of monohulls. Yes, the noise can be dramatic, but a varies a lot, cat to cat. True. But I was thinking of speed & steering, not noise. What's a little banging under the bridge deck? Although I have seen some cats with scuppers that would fountain very dramatically when a wave slapped underneath.... Can you name a few? I'll admit that you can get one or two of these traits, and if you're willing to get an older boat you can do better with a monohull. But if you're comparing newer boats I don't know what would fill your description. How much newer? I was looking at boats in the 10 ~ 25 year old range. The French seem to build a lot of centerboarders with good accomodations & good performance. Some of the ones we looked at were aluminum, which isn't everybody's cup of tea. I freely admit to being biased towards monohulls, and try to give honest assessments of boats I have experience with. Jeff, I did give you credit in an earlier post for the same approach, only biased the other way! There are a few really nice multis out there, but the compromises seem (to me) to be a bit more extreme than with monohulls, and the costs higher. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
shopping pains
Thanks Jeff
NH_/)_ -- Nora_00112 ED ScamWatch Senior Technical Officer -------- http://nortech-cs.com/sailusa/index4.htm "Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ... Diesel Pros: more reliable more power high output alternator much quieter safer fuel much better economy hot water heater Outboard Pros: Less weight Less drag (they can be lifted) You lose cockpit lockers, but can space below they can be easily removed for replacement you can carry a third as spare or dinghy engine lower cost The biggest thing against the outboards is the lack of electrical generation. We would have needed some type of genset - either an gas portable, or a built in diesel. The adds a third engine to maintain, and in the latter case we would then have would need to carry two types of fuel. My second thoughts usually center around the newer very quiet gas gensets from Honda, the fact that the price difference would have bought at lot of solar panels and wind generators, and did we really need a freezer? On the other hand, the dull roar of a diesel loafing along is a lot easier to take than the scream of an outboard working hard. -jeff "NH_/)_" wrote in message m... option was diesel or outboard (I chose diesel, and still wonder if it was for the best.) nice :) is there any reason why? NH_/)_ "Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ... My boat was "special made" but that is very different from being "custom made.". For instance, the primary option was diesel or outboard (I chose diesel, and still wonder if it was for the best.) Also, the smaller aft cabin comes completely unfinished, so there is a wide variation there - the common choice is a desk and fold down berth. I got a freezer and bunk. Others have a "dive den" or workbench. After that comes the options that you'd see on most production boats - instrumentation, cockpit canvas, stove top or oven, microwave, inverter, extra deck hardware, deck washdown, windlass, fabric choices etc.. We had special instructions for the sailmaker; we asked for extra handholds; we got a Lavac head. I researched microwaves a bit and found one that was very efficient, so I asked for that. I found out they bought 5 of them to get a better price, so that 4 other buyers had to live with my "customization." I would have to say the majority of problems that we had were with non-standard installations, such as the freezer and head. The real issue is how many are made by the yard. When mine was built they were doing about a dozen a year, so I had their attention for a month - actually it was a six month process, but you know what I mean. A higher output yard means less extra customization and less special attention. BTW, the construction pictures on my web site were taken only a few hours after we made the final commitment - they had started construction on "spec" and guessed they we (or whoever would get it) would want the diesel. More often they have a backlog of up to a year. -- -jeff www.sv-loki.com "The sea was angry that day, my friend. Like an old man trying to send back soup at the deli." P.S. One unique customization they did was a cat box built into a locker. Much appreciated by the Feline-American members of the crew. "NH_/)_" wrote in message m... Jeff? most cats are special made right? I mean they are all diff. made to order. or are they made by production standards? yours was special made? NH_/)_ "Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ... The big problem in defending the Catamaran side of the multi vs. mono discussions is that there are simply very few choices of cats in the low end. While there are numerous possibilities in monos for under $50K, the entry for multihulls is much higher. For instance, if you're looking for a cat less than 10 years old and over 32 feet, you might get a Gemini for as low as $70, but a more seaworthy Prout would probably be over $100k. If you go back much further, you find cats that are not as well designed, and have spent too much time in the tropics under charter. On the other hand, there are numerous examples of well designed monohulls that are 20-30 years old and can be had at very reasonable prices. However, if you're in the market for a newer boat, the modern cats are more competitively priced. For instance, 42 foot good mono, roughly 5 years old, will cost between $150 and $220, depending on the brand etc. You'll find roughly the same price range in 36 foot catamarans, which have the same space & speed, or more. -jeff "DSK" wrote in message ... Except for a few Chris White designs, I have yet to see a cruising cat that was designed for cruising (ie a small number of people aboard long term) rather than chartering or weekend partying (not that there's anything wrong with that). Jeff Morris wrote: Have you been on a newer PDQ36? They are certainly not built for chartering, and a large number of owners have done extensive cruising. I stand corrected.... Actually I have been on a couple of PDQs. Should have said "most" not "all." The PDQ trawler cats are really nice too. 3 sails in shallow water So will a properly designed mono. Are you saying that any monohull with a draft over 3 feet is not properlly designed? From my point of view, and for most U.S. East Coast waters, yes. At least it's all mud & sand...... 3 can't use a windvane Why not? Apparent wind varies tremendously (as it will on a fast monohull). A windvane will often make such a boat bear away and speed up until it's 60 degrees off course, then wander back and forth in that same range. 4 poor performance in chop (also very noisy) So have a lot of monohulls. Yes, the noise can be dramatic, but a varies a lot, cat to cat. True. But I was thinking of speed & steering, not noise. What's a little banging under the bridge deck? Although I have seen some cats with scuppers that would fountain very dramatically when a wave slapped underneath.... Can you name a few? I'll admit that you can get one or two of these traits, and if you're willing to get an older boat you can do better with a monohull. But if you're comparing newer boats I don't know what would fill your description. How much newer? I was looking at boats in the 10 ~ 25 year old range. The French seem to build a lot of centerboarders with good accomodations & good performance. Some of the ones we looked at were aluminum, which isn't everybody's cup of tea. I freely admit to being biased towards monohulls, and try to give honest assessments of boats I have experience with. Jeff, I did give you credit in an earlier post for the same approach, only biased the other way! There are a few really nice multis out there, but the compromises seem (to me) to be a bit more extreme than with monohulls, and the costs higher. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
shopping pains
S.S. you have some serious issues, Any boat is nicer than yours
with new sails and bent cheap 13m boom theeheh. NH_/)_ -- Nora_00112 ED ScamWatch Senior Technical Officer -------- http://nortech-cs.com/sailusa/index4.htm "Simple Simon" wrote in message ... Comments interspersed. (For both NH_/)_ and Jeffy-po.) "Jeff Morris wannabe Master" wrote: My boat was "special made" but that is very different from being "custom made.". For instance, the primary option was diesel or outboard (I chose diesel, and still wonder if it was for the best.) Definitely the correct choice for a motorboater like youself. Also, the smaller aft cabin comes completely unfinished, so there is a wide variation there - the common choice is a desk and fold down berth. I got a freezer and bunk. Others have a "dive den" or workbench. Real smart move, Jeff. Put all the weight of freezer compressor and a nice full box right smack dab at the rear of your boat where the weight can be a detriment. I can tell your priorities and the reason your tummy is rather large. You use your boat as a floating eatery. Shame, shame! After that comes the options that you'd see on most production boats - instrumentation, cockpit canvas, stove top or oven, microwave, inverter, extra deck hardware, deck washdown, windlass, fabric choices etc.. We had special instructions for the sailmaker; we asked for extra handholds; we got a Lavac head. I researched microwaves a bit and found one that was very efficient, so I asked for that. I found out they bought 5 of them to get a better price, so that 4 other buyers had to live with my "customization." I would have to say the majority of problems that we had were with non-standard installations, such as the freezer and head. Lavac, yes, that's the large head isn't it. I suppose with an ass the size of yours one of the standard small heads just wouldn't work. And a microwave? Bwahahahaha! More catering to the immediate desires of that extended tummy. What were the special instructions to the sailmaker? Make 'em as cheap as possible because they're just for show anyway? The real issue is how many are made by the yard. When mine was built they were doing about a dozen a year, so I had their attention for a month - actually it was a six month process, but you know what I mean. A higher output yard means less extra customization and less special attention. Yes, I know what you mean. I worked at the Irwin Yacht yard in Clearwater, FL for a year and we always hated it when buyers came snooping around with their ignorant suggestions and last-minute changes based on nothing but a whim. BTW, the construction pictures on my web site were taken only a few hours after we made the final commitment - they had started construction on "spec" and guessed they we (or whoever would get it) would want the diesel. More often they have a backlog of up to a year. A year-long backlog means the factory needs to hire an efficiency expert. Something is wrong. Probably it's a matter of too many factory personnel out in the field doing warranty repairs because of shoddy production practices. My advice, next time, get a monohull. But quality used and maintained by one loving owner who has worked out all the bugs, bought all top-notch equipment and fittings and sailed sparingly. Anytime you buy something new you take a real beating especially the first year when resale value vs. price paid is often 30 or 40 percent lower. You are the typical, ignorant, gotta-have-a-new-one consumer who drives the economy but, in doing so, throws his hard-earned dollars away. S.Simon - who has never and will never buy a new boat because new is stupid. |
shopping pains
Hey, give me a break! You workers have nothing better to do than sit around your computer
and chat. Us "retired" folk actually have a life! I was busy calling in my unemployment insurance! "NH_/)_" wrote in message m... Your not answering me , I'm not Trolling LOL just curious is all, My husband wants us to have diesel as well. Thanks NH_/)_ -- Nora_00112 ED ScamWatch Senior Technical Officer -------- http://nortech-cs.com/sailusa/index4.htm "NH_/)_" wrote in message m... option was diesel or outboard (I chose diesel, and still wonder if it was for the best.) nice :) is there any reason why? NH_/)_ "Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ... My boat was "special made" but that is very different from being "custom made.". For instance, the primary option was diesel or outboard (I chose diesel, and still wonder if it was for the best.) Also, the smaller aft cabin comes completely unfinished, so there is a wide variation there - the common choice is a desk and fold down berth. I got a freezer and bunk. Others have a "dive den" or workbench. After that comes the options that you'd see on most production boats - instrumentation, cockpit canvas, stove top or oven, microwave, inverter, extra deck hardware, deck washdown, windlass, fabric choices etc.. We had special instructions for the sailmaker; we asked for extra handholds; we got a Lavac head. I researched microwaves a bit and found one that was very efficient, so I asked for that. I found out they bought 5 of them to get a better price, so that 4 other buyers had to live with my "customization." I would have to say the majority of problems that we had were with non-standard installations, such as the freezer and head. The real issue is how many are made by the yard. When mine was built they were doing about a dozen a year, so I had their attention for a month - actually it was a six month process, but you know what I mean. A higher output yard means less extra customization and less special attention. BTW, the construction pictures on my web site were taken only a few hours after we made the final commitment - they had started construction on "spec" and guessed they we (or whoever would get it) would want the diesel. More often they have a backlog of up to a year. -- -jeff www.sv-loki.com "The sea was angry that day, my friend. Like an old man trying to send back soup at the deli." P.S. One unique customization they did was a cat box built into a locker. Much appreciated by the Feline-American members of the crew. "NH_/)_" wrote in message m... Jeff? most cats are special made right? I mean they are all diff. made to order. or are they made by production standards? yours was special made? NH_/)_ "Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ... The big problem in defending the Catamaran side of the multi vs. mono discussions is that there are simply very few choices of cats in the low end. While there are numerous possibilities in monos for under $50K, the entry for multihulls is much higher. For instance, if you're looking for a cat less than 10 years old and over 32 feet, you might get a Gemini for as low as $70, but a more seaworthy Prout would probably be over $100k. If you go back much further, you find cats that are not as well designed, and have spent too much time in the tropics under charter. On the other hand, there are numerous examples of well designed monohulls that are 20-30 years old and can be had at very reasonable prices. However, if you're in the market for a newer boat, the modern cats are more competitively priced. For instance, 42 foot good mono, roughly 5 years old, will cost between $150 and $220, depending on the brand etc. You'll find roughly the same price range in 36 foot catamarans, which have the same space & speed, or more. -jeff "DSK" wrote in message ... Except for a few Chris White designs, I have yet to see a cruising cat that was designed for cruising (ie a small number of people aboard long term) rather than chartering or weekend partying (not that there's anything wrong with that). Jeff Morris wrote: Have you been on a newer PDQ36? They are certainly not built for chartering, and a large number of owners have done extensive cruising. I stand corrected.... Actually I have been on a couple of PDQs. Should have said "most" not "all." The PDQ trawler cats are really nice too. 3 sails in shallow water So will a properly designed mono. Are you saying that any monohull with a draft over 3 feet is not properlly designed? From my point of view, and for most U.S. East Coast waters, yes. At least it's all mud & sand...... 3 can't use a windvane Why not? Apparent wind varies tremendously (as it will on a fast monohull). A windvane will often make such a boat bear away and speed up until it's 60 degrees off course, then wander back and forth in that same range. 4 poor performance in chop (also very noisy) So have a lot of monohulls. Yes, the noise can be dramatic, but a varies a lot, cat to cat. True. But I was thinking of speed & steering, not noise. What's a little banging under the bridge deck? Although I have seen some cats with scuppers that would fountain very dramatically when a wave slapped underneath.... Can you name a few? I'll admit that you can get one or two of these traits, and if you're willing to get an older boat you can do better with a monohull. But if you're comparing newer boats I don't know what would fill your description. How much newer? I was looking at boats in the 10 ~ 25 year old range. The French seem to build a lot of centerboarders with good accomodations & good performance. Some of the ones we looked at were aluminum, which isn't everybody's cup of tea. I freely admit to being biased towards monohulls, and try to give honest assessments of boats I have experience with. Jeff, I did give you credit in an earlier post for the same approach, only biased the other way! There are a few really nice multis out there, but the compromises seem (to me) to be a bit more extreme than with monohulls, and the costs higher. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
shopping pains
"NH_/\)_" wrote in message m...
Cats are looking to be a nice choice in the 38-40ft range http://www.sailnet.com/collections/b...ing%20a%20Boat NH_/)_ Hey NH_/), Did you read the last line of the link you posted? "you should have a capsize plan and make sure that emergency supplies will be reachable" In other words you are stopped, upside down, and just flosum. Never happen on a well buildt monohull. I also like the line "you better be able to release your mainsheet in an instant." So True, and the real danger of a cat. If you buy a cat you better be faster than the wind. SO.......If you value your life stay away from cats, unless your just a weekend warrior in the local bay or lake with someone looking out 4U. Capt. American |
shopping pains
Another poster with a complex yipppppeeeee
NH_/)_ -- Nora_00112 ED ScamWatch Senior Technical Officer -------- http://nortech-cs.com/sailusa/index4.htm "Capt.American" wrote in message om... "NH_/\)_" wrote in message m... Cats are looking to be a nice choice in the 38-40ft range http://www.sailnet.com/collections/b...ing%20a%20Boat NH_/)_ Hey NH_/), Did you read the last line of the link you posted? "you should have a capsize plan and make sure that emergency supplies will be reachable" In other words you are stopped, upside down, and just flosum. Never happen on a well buildt monohull. I also like the line "you better be able to release your mainsheet in an instant." So True, and the real danger of a cat. If you buy a cat you better be faster than the wind. SO.......If you value your life stay away from cats, unless your just a weekend warrior in the local bay or lake with someone looking out 4U. Capt. American |
shopping pains
On the other hand, the dull roar of a diesel loafing along is a lot easier to
take than the scream of an outboard working hard. Keep in mind the resale...far easier and better with the diesel IB engines. Every boat is a "stepping stone" to the next...and then you die. RB |
shopping pains
Typical Democrat - suck the system for all it's worth then
lobby for higher taxes so it'll be worth even more. Never think about going to work and earning a living for once. . . Let the rest of us pay your way. "Jeff Morris" wrote the following disgusting drivel I was busy calling in my unemployment insurance! |
shopping pains
Thank you for reiterating the obvious. But, trying to make
multi-hull buyers see the obvious is about as difficult as making a pig stay away from his slop. My only hope is they remember our words as they suffer and waste away in an upside down multihull adrift till they starve or die of exposure. S.Simon "Capt.American" wrote in message om... "NH_/\)_" wrote in message m... Cats are looking to be a nice choice in the 38-40ft range http://www.sailnet.com/collections/b...ing%20a%20Boat NH_/)_ Hey NH_/), Did you read the last line of the link you posted? "you should have a capsize plan and make sure that emergency supplies will be reachable" In other words you are stopped, upside down, and just flosum. Never happen on a well buildt monohull. I also like the line "you better be able to release your mainsheet in an instant." So True, and the real danger of a cat. If you buy a cat you better be faster than the wind. SO.......If you value your life stay away from cats, unless your just a weekend warrior in the local bay or lake with someone looking out 4U. Capt. American |
shopping pains
"Simple Simon" wrote in message Yes, I know what you mean. I worked at the Irwin Yacht yard in Clearwater, FL for a year and we always hated it when buyers came snooping around with their ignorant suggestions and last-minute changes based on nothing but a whim. It was my experiance with an eight year old Irwin that led me to always want a quality young boat. The Irwin was an incredible POS, and we would joke about what major component might fall off next. BTW, the construction pictures on my web site were taken only a few hours after we made the final commitment - they had started construction on "spec" and guessed they we (or whoever would get it) would want the diesel. More often they have a backlog of up to a year. A year-long backlog means the factory needs to hire an efficiency expert. Something is wrong. Probably it's a matter of too many factory personnel out in the field doing warranty repairs because of shoddy production practices. No, its a small shop where a good review or boatshow can generate a few extra sales. They would probably like to stay at 6 month backlog. ... Anytime you buy something new you take a real beating especially the first year when resale value vs. price paid is often 30 or 40 percent lower. You are the typical, ignorant, gotta-have-a-new-one consumer who drives the economy but, in doing so, throws his hard-earned dollars away. That's a complete myth - I could probably still get roughly 90% of my purchase price. Two years after I bought and had put 8000 miles on the boat I was offered 105% - the backlog was high that season. And who says my dollars were hard earned? -jeff |
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