Subject: Fog signal frequency
From: Jack Dale
Date: 09/01/2003 21:49 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 23:46:33 -0400, "Scott Vernon"
wrote:

mmmmmmm, why would they require different fog signals for power vs sail if
there is no pecking order in fog?

The pecking order remains the same in fog.


G OK, Jack, ....Same question to you I've put to others on this issue.
If a RAM, NUC, sail, fishing, and powerdriven vessel (engaged in towing), all
make the same signal, in fog, ..... how can there be a pecking order, as exist
in clear visibility?

Shen

liked the memory aid

It's clear that's there's an abreviated pecking order in
restricted visibility. The full pecking order is there but
in the background. It comes out of the background the
instant vessels in restricted visibility come withing sight
of each other visually. The different fog signals allow
vessels to be aware of the pecking order and be
ready to heed the in-sight rules which may come into
play. This realization of status means a pecking order
always exists though Rules concerning it in detail may
not be in immediate play.

The fact that vessels eventually come in sight if they
remain on a collision course for too long means they
had damned better well be aware of their status in
the pecking order especially if they are a motor boat
which is the lowliest form of vessel (except seaplane)
in the scheme of things.


S.Simon - a Captain who's serious about sailing

"Shen44" wrote in message ...
Subject: Fog signal frequency
From: Jack Dale
Date: 09/01/2003 21:49 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 23:46:33 -0400, "Scott Vernon"
wrote:

mmmmmmm, why would they require different fog signals for power vs sail if
there is no pecking order in fog?

The pecking order remains the same in fog.


G OK, Jack, ....Same question to you I've put to others on this issue.
If a RAM, NUC, sail, fishing, and powerdriven vessel (engaged in towing), all
make the same signal, in fog, ..... how can there be a pecking order, as exist
in clear visibility?

Shen

liked the memory aid

ROFL I've enjoyed watching you reword your responses to this over time,
in a vain attempt to qualify your statement.
However, for those of us who have run in thick fog, where you never see
the other guy no matter how close you get, and keeping the issue to that
simple premise .... while you are in fog, there is NO pecking order
regarding "stand-on" "giveway".....what it's all about.
Now, to play your game, does this signal give a hint as to the fact you
may not be dealing with a simple powerdriven vessel? Of course. But,
does it in any way tell you how you may have to maneuver? No....
insufficient information, and even YOU know one must not make decisions
based on "scanty" information.

otn

Simple Simon wrote:

It's clear that's there's an abreviated pecking order in
restricted visibility. The full pecking order is there but
in the background. It comes out of the background the
instant vessels in restricted visibility come withing sight
of each other visually. The different fog signals allow
vessels to be aware of the pecking order and be
ready to heed the in-sight rules which may come into
play. This realization of status means a pecking order
always exists though Rules concerning it in detail may
not be in immediate play.

The fact that vessels eventually come in sight if they
remain on a collision course for too long means they
had damned better well be aware of their status in
the pecking order especially if they are a motor boat
which is the lowliest form of vessel (except seaplane)
in the scheme of things.


S.Simon - a Captain who's serious about sailing

"Shen44" wrote in message ...

Subject: Fog signal frequency
From: Jack Dale
Date: 09/01/2003 21:49 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 23:46:33 -0400, "Scott Vernon"
wrote:


mmmmmmm, why would they require different fog signals for power vs sail if
there is no pecking order in fog?

The pecking order remains the same in fog.


G OK, Jack, ....Same question to you I've put to others on this issue.
If a RAM, NUC, sail, fishing, and powerdriven vessel (engaged in towing), all
make the same signal, in fog, ..... how can there be a pecking order, as exist
in clear visibility?

Shen

liked the memory aid

"otnmbrd" wrote in message ink.net...
ROFL I've enjoyed watching you reword your responses to this over time,
in a vain attempt to qualify your statement.
However, for those of us who have run in thick fog, where you never see
the other guy no matter how close you get, and keeping the issue to that
simple premise .... while you are in fog, there is NO pecking order
regarding "stand-on" "giveway".....what it's all about.
Now, to play your game, does this signal give a hint as to the fact you
may not be dealing with a simple powerdriven vessel? Of course. But,
does it in any way tell you how you may have to maneuver? No....
insufficient information, and even YOU know one must not make decisions
based on "scanty" information.

Listening to the fog signal most certainly may give you information
on how to maneuver. For example, you are operating a motor boat.
You hear dead ahead of you one prolonged blast/ two short blasts.
You slow down some more. Two minutes you hear the same signal
but now it's bearing approx 350 degrees. Two minutes later you hear it
bearing approx 340 degrees. You don't have to assume, you know
the vessel has crossed your path but and unless it is very very long or
is a towboat with a very very long hawser that it would be you may
be clear. You assume the worst case scenario that it is a towboat
with a hawser a quarter mile long so you slow down even more and
turn 30 degrees to starboard.

Now, tell me you aren't the give way vessel.

S.Simon - a Captain who's familiar with the intricacies of the Rules

Comments interspersed.

Simple Simon wrote:


Listening to the fog signal most certainly may give you information
on how to maneuver. For example, you are operating a motor boat.
You hear dead ahead of you one prolonged blast/ two short blasts.
You slow down some more. Two minutes you hear the same signal
but now it's bearing approx 350 degrees. Two minutes later you hear it
bearing approx 340 degrees.

With a fog signal, it would be very hard to locate the bearing of the
signal this closely .... something you still fail to understand. It will
take a good deal of time, just using the sound, to get an actual feel
for direction of movement of the other vessel, unless they are traveling
at a good rate of speed, and even then it will take awhile .... hence
the reason for slowing to bare steerage or stopping.


You don't have to assume,

Never Assume.
you know
the vessel has crossed your path but and unless it is very very long or
is a towboat with a very very long hawser that it would be you may
be clear. You assume the worst case scenario that it is a towboat
with a hawser a quarter mile long so you slow down even more and
turn 30 degrees to starboard.

I would consider 30 degrees in zero visibility, too little..... better
to stop and let them clear astern or at least abaft the beam.

Now, tell me you aren't the give way vessel.

Course you are and so is the other guy. There is NO stand-on status in
fog nor pecking order, nor one vessel which must consider itself the
sole "giveway" vessel, based on sound signals. ALL vessels are required
to maneuver in the same way, to the extent possible for their condition,
if at all. IOW you on your sailboat, must reduce speed to that necessary
to keep yourself on course, or stop and at any rate navigate with
extreme caution, until the danger has passed ... no special treatment
.....if you're NUC, you sit there and pray.

S.Simon - a Captain who's unfamiliar with the intricacies of the Rules



otn

"otnmbrd" wrote in message ink.net...

With a fog signal, it would be very hard to locate the bearing of the
signal this closely .... something you still fail to understand. It will
take a good deal of time, just using the sound, to get an actual feel
for direction of movement of the other vessel, unless they are traveling
at a good rate of speed, and even then it will take awhile .... hence
the reason for slowing to bare steerage or stopping.



I disagree. Perhaps it's easier to pinpoint a fog signal from the
cockpit of a small, quiet sailboat than a huge, noisy metal ship
from which the sound bounces off the structure. But, that's
your cross to bear and not mine.

I'll sail along at my normal speed which is always a safe speed
because my greatest possibly speed is still slow enough to be
a safe speed while it is incumbent upon motor vessels that rarely
travel at a safe speed to slow down. What you motor boaters
seem to never realize no matter how many times you have it
explained to you is that slowing down to a safe speed is only
necessary if you are going at an unsafe speed to begin with.

I can be going at hull speed which is a safe speed for me -
all of seven knots and turn 360 degrees and stop my sail boat
in its own length. I have that much maneuverability. If turning
and stopping in one boatlength is not safe then nothing is.

So, in real life, I don't have to slow down to a safe speed
because I'm already proceeding at a safe speed. This is NOT
the case with motor boats traveling at some of the outrageous
speeds they can attain. The Rule stating to slow down to a safe
speed applies only to them and not to a small sailboat that cannot
possibly go faster than a safe speed.

The bottom line is I stand on because it is safe for me to stand on
while a motor vessel slows down (gives way) which makes the
motor vessel the give way vessel whether or not he wishes to
believe it because of some sordid sense of pride that he is 'better'
than some mere rag-bagger.

This is how life works. Get over your false pride and live
with the facts of life. You'll be much happier and things will
be much safer for sailboaters everywhere.

S.Simon - a Captain who takes sailing seriously

Well, I see we're making some minor progress .... comments interspersed:

Simple Simon wrote:
"otnmbrd" wrote in message ink.net...


With a fog signal, it would be very hard to locate the bearing of the
signal this closely .... something you still fail to understand. It will
take a good deal of time, just using the sound, to get an actual feel
for direction of movement of the other vessel, unless they are traveling
at a good rate of speed, and even then it will take awhile .... hence
the reason for slowing to bare steerage or stopping.




I disagree. Perhaps it's easier to pinpoint a fog signal from the
cockpit of a small, quiet sailboat than a huge, noisy metal ship
from which the sound bounces off the structure. But, that's
your cross to bear and not mine.

First off, you'd be amazed at how quiet most ship bridges are, and
considering their position, how well you can hear, but having spent
enough time on many small, quiet, boats, such as yours, I can guarantee,
that if you think you have some special ability to absolutely narrow the
bearing of a sound signal down to a point that you can quickly use it to
govern your actions in fog, you are foolishly deluding yourself.

I'll sail along at my normal speed which is always a safe speed
because my greatest possibly speed is still slow enough to be
a safe speed while it is incumbent upon motor vessels that rarely
travel at a safe speed to slow down. What you motor boaters
seem to never realize no matter how many times you have it
explained to you is that slowing down to a safe speed is only
necessary if you are going at an unsafe speed to begin with.

LOL .... paragraph of rubbish.

I can be going at hull speed which is a safe speed for me -
all of seven knots and turn 360 degrees and stop my sail boat
in its own length. I have that much maneuverability. If turning
and stopping in one boatlength is not safe then nothing is.

BG Ahhh, the part where you seem to have larn't somethin. So you CAN
stop your sailboat, AND in short order .... hmmmmm change of tune
(course you'll deny it).
To a point, I agree. However, if that turn to stop, turns you into an
approaching vessel and causes a collision, then you are at fault.

So, in real life, I don't have to slow down to a safe speed
because I'm already proceeding at a safe speed. This is NOT
the case with motor boats traveling at some of the outrageous
speeds they can attain. The Rule stating to slow down to a safe
speed applies only to them and not to a small sailboat that cannot
possibly go faster than a safe speed.

Incorrect. You may be able to stop fairly quickly, if you can see the
person soon enough and have enough room, but the rules consider a
situation where you may not be able to see someone soon enough, so, yes,
even YOU must slow down to a safe speed for the circumstances ..... and
if the circumstance are that you cannot see your bow, then you'd best be
stopped, so you can slowly and cautiously start and stop till well
clear, if possible.

The bottom line is I stand on because it is safe for me to stand on
while a motor vessel slows down (gives way) which makes the
motor vessel the give way vessel whether or not he wishes to
believe it because of some sordid sense of pride that he is 'better'
than some mere rag-bagger.

If you stand on, you are not navigating with extreme caution, because
YOU are just as responsible for avoiding that collision as the other guy
(rule 2)

This is how life works. Get over your false pride and live
with the facts of life. You'll be much happier and things will
be much safer for sailboaters everywhere.

S.Simon - a Captain who takes sailing seriously

Well I see we corrected at least one of your erroneous past statements
...... if we keep working on you, you may finally learn the
"Rules"...admitedly, this will take awhile since you have all
appearances of being a slow learner.

otn

Hey otn,





S.Simon

ROFLMAO.... Admit to losing another one, I see.

otn

Simple Simon wrote:

Hey otn,




S.Simon