I'm not sure I want to play this game since you've already said you have laid a trap for
us. However, I'll toss out a few thoughts.

First of all, you've posed two essentially identical situations that have different
histories. You claim that the appropriate lights are based on what transpired at some
point in the distant past. I don't think that is an appropriate basis for answering the
question "which lights should be used?" I'm not saying the one is right and the other is
wrong, I saying that if one, or the other, lights are OK they would be OK for either case.

It is not clear to be that there is a hard and fast answer. Before I get into that, let
me point out that there are a number of situations explicitly not covered in the rules.
An infinite number, actually, when you consider that there is virtually no mention of the
possibility of more than two vessels. Further, there are a variety of craft not
discussed - where to row boats fit in the pecking order? Other vague issues - is a
disabled boat a NUC if it isn't displaying NUC signals? What if it displays obvious signs
that it is disabled? How does moving astern alter the rules? I've wondered about the
issue of sidelights - is it proper to have red/green lights if you're drifting randomly?
These issues, and all others not explicitly covered in other rules, fall under Rule 2. It
is the responsibility of the various vessels to figure it out and act in a prudent manner.

But back to the specific case. Is a sailboat with the sails furled still a sailboat?
Technically no, because it is not "under sail." Is it a powerboat? Maybe, if it does
have an engine. As an aside, a sailboat must start the engine if the circumstances
requires it. Is it row boat? Maybe - Canadian Law requires, IIRC, a means of alternative
propulsion. What about a sailboat making way under bare poles - is that sailing? I don't
think a becalmed aux sailboat can claim to be a NUC, since it could comply with the rules
if it turned on the engine. Further, being becalmed is a natural part of sailing. But
this gets into another subtlety - if you claim to be a NUC (mistakenly, but in good faith)
is the other boat bound to honor that? Yes, but the courts haven't looked too kindly on
this sort of thing.

The point of this is that this is a grey area, that would probably really fall under Rule
2. Then, assuming that ended up in the courts, the standard becomes the "ordinary
practice of seamen."

So, what would I do in this case? I believe that its appropriate to look at this from the
point of view of the other observer. When one sees a drift fishing powerboat, one
presumes it is still capable of powering - there is not way to determine if the engine is
on or off. Thus, it must act with that status. Likewise, when one sees a boat sailing,
one must assume it is a sailboat, unless it quite obviously is really powering. So what
if you see a sailboat with the sail down? I am inclined to think that the observer should
not presume that a sailboat is really a powerboat because it can't see a sail. Maybe
there is a sail, but at an angle where it can't be seen. Thus, the observer should treat
it as a sailboat. Further, I don't think its appropriate for the sailboat to display the
steaming light if its engine is not immediately available. By doing so the sailboat is
saying, "I am prepared to act like a powerboat." If the engine is not warmed up, this is
not the case. So I would have to say that the status of the boat should be "sailboat,"
even though its not under sail. The only real support for this position is that rowboats
are allowed to display the same lights as a sailboat, implying that this is appropriate
for boats that are not truly anything else.

But there's a whole other side to this: is it appropriate for a sailboat to lower sails
and drift, especially at night? I've done it during the day - especially at regattas
waiting for a race to start, but never at night. Depending of course, on the location,
this doesn't feel like it is proper seamanship - when I don't want to go anywhere, I
anchor. Whenever I want to drift at night (July 4th comes to mind) I keep an engine
running, and display the steaming light. So my bottom line answer has to be: its not
proper to get into this situation, but if you must, don't display lights for a powerboat
if you're not prepared to act like one.

And at the end of the day, the judge will say either "that's what I would have done" or
"what a Putz!"


--
-jeff
"Assumptions shall not be made on the basis of scanty information" ColRegs, Rule 7(c)

P.S. What about sea anchors and heaving to?



"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
Now, I'm going to expand upon my scenario
of an auxiliary sailboat with sails up but not
making way while underway because the wind
is calm.

It is now nighttime and . . .

The captain decides to take down his sails so
they won't be slating back and forth in the left-
over swell. His motor is off. He is still underway
and not making way but what is he now? Is he
a motor vessel with his engine off or is he a
sailboat with his sails down? What do you think?

My answer would be that he is a sailboat and can
legally run a tricolor light at the masthead. My reason
is because he has sails even though they are furled.

What say you two?

Now, let's do another scene. An auxiliary sailboat
motors, like Bobsprit does, out into Long Island
sound with the cover on the mainsail and the
wind-up jib rolled up tightly. Once well away
from the dock the motor is turned off. What
is the status of this boat that is underway but
not making way? I say it is a motor boat with
motor turned off because it used a motor to
get to it's present location. This vessel must
then use the lower running lights and the steaming
light. The use of only the masthead tricolor
is incorrect because it is not sailing, did not
sail to its position and does not have its
sails ready to be put to work.

What say you two?

Answer thoughtfully because if you answer
with a motor boat mentality or otherwise
incorrectly I have set a trap out of which you
both will find it very difficult to escape (as is
the usual case when you two treat with me).

S.Simon

Good answers but not what I was looking for. You should
have gone to law school. You obfuscate better than you
navigate.

Here's the facts. (you should have been able to think of them for yourself)

Fact 1) An auxiliary sailboat is always a sailboat unless
and until the motor is turned on.
Fact 2) An auxiliary sailboat is never wrong when running
the lights required for a sailboat unless and until
the motor is turned on.
Fact3) An auxiliary sailboat can never legally be made to
turn its engine on and become a motor boat.
Fact 4) An auxiliary sailboat does not need to have installed
the lights for a motor vessel unless and until it
turns on the motor.
Fact 5) Anybody who claims an auxiliary sailboat must have
the lights of a motor vessel in addition to the masthead
tricolor is clearly wrong considering the above facts.

Now, here comes the kicker. Since an aux. sailboat is a sailboat
until the motor is turned on the sailboat must sound the fog signal
of a sailboat in restricted visibility provided the motor remains off.

It just so happens that this sound signal is also that of a NUC, RAM,
etc. This means that any motor vessel hearing the required signal
knows that according to the Rules it shall take action early and
adequately to avoid a close quarters situation. If a close quarters
situation eventuates it is solely the motor vessel's fault for not
fulfilling its obligations under the Rules. The sailboat has not
violated any Rule to cause the close quarters situation. The motor
vessel has.

It follows that the motor vessel is the give way vessel because it
must give way in restricted vis. to the audible signal of those vessels
it knows are above it in the pecking order. You have tried to claim
there is no pecking order in restricted vis. but there clearly is a
pecking order because the motor vessel knows when it hears the
sound signal of a sailboat, NUC, RAM etc. that a vessel is in the
area with which the motor vessel must avoid a close quarters situation.

There clearly IS a pecking order and hence there IS, by definition,
a stand-on vessel and a give-way vessel in restricted vis.

Case closed, you, Shen44 and otnmbrd lose!


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ...
I'm not sure I want to play this game since you've already said you have laid a trap for
us. However, I'll toss out a few thoughts.

First of all, you've posed two essentially identical situations that have different
histories. You claim that the appropriate lights are based on what transpired at some
point in the distant past. I don't think that is an appropriate basis for answering the
question "which lights should be used?" I'm not saying the one is right and the other is
wrong, I saying that if one, or the other, lights are OK they would be OK for either case.

It is not clear to be that there is a hard and fast answer. Before I get into that, let
me point out that there are a number of situations explicitly not covered in the rules.
An infinite number, actually, when you consider that there is virtually no mention of the
possibility of more than two vessels. Further, there are a variety of craft not
discussed - where to row boats fit in the pecking order? Other vague issues - is a
disabled boat a NUC if it isn't displaying NUC signals? What if it displays obvious signs
that it is disabled? How does moving astern alter the rules? I've wondered about the
issue of sidelights - is it proper to have red/green lights if you're drifting randomly?
These issues, and all others not explicitly covered in other rules, fall under Rule 2. It
is the responsibility of the various vessels to figure it out and act in a prudent manner.

But back to the specific case. Is a sailboat with the sails furled still a sailboat?
Technically no, because it is not "under sail." Is it a powerboat? Maybe, if it does
have an engine. As an aside, a sailboat must start the engine if the circumstances
requires it. Is it row boat? Maybe - Canadian Law requires, IIRC, a means of alternative
propulsion. What about a sailboat making way under bare poles - is that sailing? I don't
think a becalmed aux sailboat can claim to be a NUC, since it could comply with the rules
if it turned on the engine. Further, being becalmed is a natural part of sailing. But
this gets into another subtlety - if you claim to be a NUC (mistakenly, but in good faith)
is the other boat bound to honor that? Yes, but the courts haven't looked too kindly on
this sort of thing.

The point of this is that this is a grey area, that would probably really fall under Rule
2. Then, assuming that ended up in the courts, the standard becomes the "ordinary
practice of seamen."

So, what would I do in this case? I believe that its appropriate to look at this from the
point of view of the other observer. When one sees a drift fishing powerboat, one
presumes it is still capable of powering - there is not way to determine if the engine is
on or off. Thus, it must act with that status. Likewise, when one sees a boat sailing,
one must assume it is a sailboat, unless it quite obviously is really powering. So what
if you see a sailboat with the sail down? I am inclined to think that the observer should
not presume that a sailboat is really a powerboat because it can't see a sail. Maybe
there is a sail, but at an angle where it can't be seen. Thus, the observer should treat
it as a sailboat. Further, I don't think its appropriate for the sailboat to display the
steaming light if its engine is not immediately available. By doing so the sailboat is
saying, "I am prepared to act like a powerboat." If the engine is not warmed up, this is
not the case. So I would have to say that the status of the boat should be "sailboat,"
even though its not under sail. The only real support for this position is that rowboats
are allowed to display the same lights as a sailboat, implying that this is appropriate
for boats that are not truly anything else.

But there's a whole other side to this: is it appropriate for a sailboat to lower sails
and drift, especially at night? I've done it during the day - especially at regattas
waiting for a race to start, but never at night. Depending of course, on the location,
this doesn't feel like it is proper seamanship - when I don't want to go anywhere, I
anchor. Whenever I want to drift at night (July 4th comes to mind) I keep an engine
running, and display the steaming light. So my bottom line answer has to be: its not
proper to get into this situation, but if you must, don't display lights for a powerboat
if you're not prepared to act like one.

And at the end of the day, the judge will say either "that's what I would have done" or
"what a Putz!"


--
-jeff
"Assumptions shall not be made on the basis of scanty information" ColRegs, Rule 7(c)

P.S. What about sea anchors and heaving to?



"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
Now, I'm going to expand upon my scenario
of an auxiliary sailboat with sails up but not
making way while underway because the wind
is calm.

It is now nighttime and . . .

The captain decides to take down his sails so
they won't be slating back and forth in the left-
over swell. His motor is off. He is still underway
and not making way but what is he now? Is he
a motor vessel with his engine off or is he a
sailboat with his sails down? What do you think?

My answer would be that he is a sailboat and can
legally run a tricolor light at the masthead. My reason
is because he has sails even though they are furled.

What say you two?

Now, let's do another scene. An auxiliary sailboat
motors, like Bobsprit does, out into Long Island
sound with the cover on the mainsail and the
wind-up jib rolled up tightly. Once well away
from the dock the motor is turned off. What
is the status of this boat that is underway but
not making way? I say it is a motor boat with
motor turned off because it used a motor to
get to it's present location. This vessel must
then use the lower running lights and the steaming
light. The use of only the masthead tricolor
is incorrect because it is not sailing, did not
sail to its position and does not have its
sails ready to be put to work.

What say you two?

Answer thoughtfully because if you answer
with a motor boat mentality or otherwise
incorrectly I have set a trap out of which you
both will find it very difficult to escape (as is
the usual case when you two treat with me).

S.Simon