Bob tends to take something he heard someone say and then apply it
incorrectly: General to specific or vice-versa.
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"DSK" wrote
| Right again, but I never claimed I could "track a straight line unattended
for an extended
| distance" with the rudder swinging free. It seems you're looking for
something that is not
| here.


"Capt. Mooron" wrote:
That's exactly the assumption I am contesting. Bob stated clearly he can
accomplish this feat with sail trim alone and that's the reason I called
Bull****.

Ah so. Well, Bubbles is nuts. I very rarely read his posts and skipped that one.
I thought the thread was talking about simply getting the boat to go where you
want.



No doubt you can get some progress in optimim conditions... but in
no way can I see a boat sailing to weather with a free helm... you'd have to
have neutral helm to even approach to accomplish that.
Weather helm would make short work of the effort.

Well, weather helm can be negated or exaggerated. I think that you're making too
much of it, many boats can be sailed towards a destination with a free swinging
rudder. That doesn't mean it has to track perfectly straight along the way. And
a locked rudder makes it much easier.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Peter Wiley wrote:


Not to buy into this, because my expertise is zero, but Tom Colvin
says and claims to have demonstrated that he can sail one of his
schooner rigged designs, balanced, on all points, without a rudder, by
proper sail trim. Given that he's now nearly 80 I'm inclined to
believe him.

What, old folks have greater credibility, just because of longevity?


Note that his hulls are cruising designs, not fin keeled
obsolete/failed racing designs recycled as cruiser/racers.

Do I detect some bitterness in your tone? Anyway, a boat that sails well is never
obsolete. The sea hasn't changed.

BTW the debate wasn't whether a boat can be balanced by sail (at which a long keeled
schooner would excel), but whether it could do so with the helm swinging free, a more
difficult proposition.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 21:16:21 -0400, DSK
wrote:


Peter Wiley wrote:


Not to buy into this, because my expertise is zero, but Tom Colvin
says and claims to have demonstrated that he can sail one of his
schooner rigged designs, balanced, on all points, without a rudder, by
proper sail trim. Given that he's now nearly 80 I'm inclined to
believe him.

What, old folks have greater credibility, just because of longevity?

Nope, the fact that he's been sailing, designing & building boats
longer than most of us have been alive, let alone sailing.

Note that his hulls are cruising designs, not fin keeled
obsolete/failed racing designs recycled as cruiser/racers.

Do I detect some bitterness in your tone?

Hell, no. I have a set of building plans for a Saugeen Witch, all I
lack is the time & shed to build it and I'm working on the shed. I
don't own or want to own a fin keel cruiser/racer or racer/cruiser. In
the future I may change my mind - I'm not hampered by consistency.
Nothing to do with their sailing performance either, more to do with
working on them/hauling without a good marine railway and sailing in
thin water. Like everything else made, different styles of boat have
different mixes of strengths & weaknesses - there is rarely any
'better' or 'worse' until you define the intended use.

Anyway, a boat that sails well is never
obsolete. The sea hasn't changed.

Couldn't agree more.

BTW the debate wasn't whether a boat can be balanced by sail (at which a long keeled
schooner would excel), but whether it could do so with the helm swinging free, a more
difficult proposition.

Yeah, Doug, I caught that.

Peter Wiley

What, old folks have greater credibility, just because of longevity?


Peter Wiley wrote:
Nope, the fact that he's been sailing, designing & building boats
longer than most of us have been alive, let alone sailing.

Agreed. Respect for elders is actually a very positive value... usually an Oriental
stereotype, but our culture certainly has it too.


... I have a set of building plans for a Saugeen Witch,

Excellent boat. I have a booklet on her that my father got from Tom Colvin decades ago.

.... all I
lack is the time & shed to build it and I'm working on the shed. I
don't own or want to own a fin keel cruiser/racer or racer/cruiser. In
the future I may change my mind - I'm not hampered by consistency.
Nothing to do with their sailing performance either, more to do with
working on them/hauling without a good marine railway and sailing in
thin water. Like everything else made, different styles of boat have
different mixes of strengths & weaknesses - there is rarely any
'better' or 'worse' until you define the intended use.

Definitely agreed, and this is something that most people gloss over (or ignore
completely).

The reason why so many people have fin-keel racer/cruisers is not out of conscious choice,
but rather because they have have been mass produced for two generations now. They are
cheap and plentiful and familiar. Most of them also suffer from most of the ills of any
product intended for mass consumption.

Disregarding the marketing blitzes associated with one brand or another, some of them are
still quite good boats. There are some things that none of them will ever do, like stand
up on their own on a tidal grid for bottom work, or go to windward against a chop without
loud thumps & crashes, or have the easy motion of a heavy full keeler (although some of
the wing keels damp motion in heave & pitch nicely).

Needless to say, like some other mass-produced items, some fin-keel racer/cruisers are
total sacks of ****, yet were marketed successfully anyway. Some were made from molds of
racing designs that were "successful" due to some quirk in rating rules, not because they
sailed well. I think this is why so many discerning sailors, folks who are knowledgable of
a wider range of sailing craft, hold their noses at the very suggestion of fin keels or
the term "racer/cruiser." But it's not a valid endictment against the whole genre (BTW
Peter I don't mean to accuse you of this, I'm just waxing philosophical over 2nd cup of
coffee).




BTW the debate wasn't whether a boat can be balanced by sail (at which a long keeled
schooner would excel), but whether it could do so with the helm swinging free, a more
difficult proposition.

Yeah, Doug, I caught that.

OK, wasn't sure. I missed it first time around. My first thought was "WTF would anybody do
that?!?" then the slower memory cells kicked in and I remembered a few times I had done
it.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

The Captains Nemesis wrote in message
...

Should I make an offer

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI....75&category=20
30

Better than the Morgan I've been looking at?


Wow! That car ooozes a degree of class that will really suit you!
Go for it Oz.

You should check these cars out. I think that you would really feel at home
in one of these ..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/uk/england/1809106.stm



Regards


Donal
--

The Captains Nemesis wrote in message
...
On Thu, 6 Nov 2003 19:05:54 -0000, "Donal"
wrote:

Wow! That car ooozes a degree of class that will really suit you!
Go for it Oz.

Great looking beast.
Do you know why it was designated GT40?

No.... but I have an awful feeling that you would like to enlighten me.
Feel free, but bear in mind that I am not really interested in cars.

Ahh yes,
My wife looked at one of these
http://www.smartstore.uk.com/
but felt uncomfortable sitting so far forward so she's decided to
stich with theMitsubishi.

They are very suitable for women who like to park.


Regards


Donal
--

No.... but I have an awful feeling that you would like to enlighten me.
Feel free, but bear in mind that I am not really interested in cars.

Or boats. It shows.


RB