Never run downwind?
 

Ok, what is it about 20nm from City Island to Coney Island? Assume it takes 4
hours with the twists and turns and ferry dodging. That's noon. He is so
concerned about this trip that he will have to stop after that and gather his
wits, so assume he drops anchor behind Sandy Hook for lunch. Say he leaves
Sandy Hook at 3 pm. The 75 mile jaunt should take 30 hours, assuming a 5kn
average. That means he is out and back by, say 10 pm Saturday (a few hours
extra to be conservative), assuming he is not run down by a freighter. He
drops the hook behind Sandy Hook again, and leaves at sunup to catch the flood.

I think he can do it!! And I am willing to take a bet. I know he won't let me
down.


It works out OK next Friday. If he hits the "slack before ebb" at Hell Gate
at 7:53AM, he
can ride the ebb out for the next 4 or 5 hours. Coming back on Sunday is
harder - he
wants to ride the flood in and get to Hell Gate again at slack before ebb,
but now its
9:25 AM or 9:43 PM. He could hit the morning slack if he passes Sandy Hook
early, maybe 6
AM


"SkitchNYC" wrote in message
...
Booby has to do about 30 miles first to get past Sandy Hook. That
includes
Hell Gate, the
East River, NY Harbor, Verrazano Narrows, etc. This will be more
challenging
than going a
few miles offshore.

That is why we are all looking forward to it eagerly. I don't have an
Eldridge's here, but I would be interested to work out when he can feasibly
make it through the Narrows from City Island on Friday July 25. Maybe he
gets
to Atl Highlands for the first night. Leaves Sat morn and turns around
Sunday
dawn. 75 nm will take him 15 hours. Looks tough to do it and get home
Sunday.

Never run downwind?
 

There is, indeed, one area where big, heavy, full-keeled
boats do excel and are superior to lightweights - longevity
and the ability to abide and even thrive on the efforts of
Mother Nature to take them apart.

Only a fool would prefer to go to sea for a circumnavigation
with speed as the primary reason. It is much better to have
a nice, slow but solid boat under you when off soundings.

Even better than a big, heavy full-keeler such as yours,
however, is a middle-weight that has positive flotation
such as mine. I have a more nimble boat and a safer one.

You have to think out of the box if you really wish to be
a sailor par excellence. It is odd that nobody but Etap makes
a decent production monohull with positive flotation from
the factory. It says a lot about the mentality of sailors who
think because their boat is built like an anvil that it will not
sink like an anvil. The only thing worse than a heavy boat
like yours is a super lightweight that will sink about as fast
if holed but will be holed much faster and easier every time.

The very best of both worlds is a boat like my Coronado
27 that is a middle-of-the-roader that has had closed cell
urethane foam poured in the spaces between the component
(liner) and hull and three watertight bulkheads glassed in or
foamed in place. Nobody on this group has a more seaworthy
boat than "Cut the Mustard" and that's a fact. Few people on
this group have a faster boat and that's also a fact. In your case
you have neither.

To quote Ole Thom. I'LL DRINK TO THAT!


"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message ...

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
|
| Such a hopeless dreamer you are. You just can't seem to understand that
| carrying your way (momentum) only matters if the way is generated
| quickly. A big, heavy, full-keeler not only has more inertia to carry but
| it has more inertia to overcome. The bottom line is the lighter the boat,
| the faster the boat in light and heavy winds. If this were not the case
| race boats would all be big heavy tubs like your Nordica.

You discuss agility over power.... on a medium that favours power over
agility. Based on your misunderstanding of the basic comprehension of sea
states and variations in the uniformity of wind strength.... you erroneously
come to the conclusion that your lighter vessel can challenge the sheer
brute strength of a solid streamlined full keel cruiser. You speak of
inertia and yet have not seen or felt the acceleration and steadfast force
generated by a true blue water designed vessel. If you had to date been
exposed to such brute muscle... it would squelch your argument regarding the
delusional idea of your coastal cruiser offering any competition. Race boats
are bred for coastal waters and buoy races.... and as displayed by the
AC... have a tendency to fall apart in short order.


|
| You cannot expect your heavy voyaging boat to be fast. It isn't and
| it never will be. My Coronado 27 which is a mid-weight boat will leave
| your heavy boat behind in any winds of ten knots or less. In heavy winds
| going offwind your boat might be a little faster because of its longer
LWL.
| In heavy winds going upwind yours will definitely be faster because it
| has the weight and power to shoulder the seas.

Correct... I did not expect it.... like you, I assumed that lighter and
frailer construction would result in a faster, dinghy like performance......
what I found out is that the cruiser's efficient ability to transform wind
from a finicky, altering state into sheer directional power is what allows
me to easily pass the frailer vessels. The words "Authority", "Supremacy",
"Dominance", "Comfort" & "Security" spring to mind when one is aboard my
vessel. I could not only dispatch you in short order on any given point of
sail..... but I could do it even if we switched vessels.

CM

Never run downwind?
 

"Simple Simon" wrote:
I watched some of the races on TV and they did not gybe downwind.

Then you have an exceptionally bad eye. The rest of the world watched them jibe downwind,
turning through rather substantial angles. Even when they where headed apart, they were
nowhere close to dead downwind.


Btw 'jibing' is incorrect unless one is using a jib to run downwind
which is pretty stupid because a spinnaker works much better.

Jybing or gybing are the corrent terms.


On which planet is "jybing" used? It doesn't appear in the online dictionaries
referenced by dictionary.com. Google shows only 108 occurrences on the web, as opposed to
over 10,200 for "jibing" and "gybing" has 5800 hits. Bowditch, BTW, uses "gybing."





"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
It was about jibing downwind. Here's a rather technical article describing the sail
design for IACC boats.

"While it is impossible to sail directly upwind, it is possible to sail directly
downwind but as shown in Fig. 3, with true wind speeds such as 5 m/s,
the optimum VMG occurs with a true wind angle of 150 degrees."

http://mapp1.de.unifi.it/persone/All...chards2001.pdf

BTW, its either jibe or gybe, not jybe. That's about as silly as saying "ded
reckoning."

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
It wasn't all about jybing downwind.


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...

Show me an America's cup where on a dead downwind leg boats are
jybing downwind and coming out ahead and I might give a little credence
to your nonsense. The races I've watched show these cutting edge vessels
running straight downwind and only turning slightly now and then to
keep boats upwind of them from blocking their wind.


This has got to be the dumbest thing you've said in, well, at least a few days.

Perhaps you will recall that they showed the downwind "laylines" - what do you
think
that
was about?

Never run downwind?
 

Like the author of "Cruising the Racer and Racing the Cruiser" says "the only
reason to buy a full keel boat is if you expect to be able to visit remote
islands and need to be able to lay it on it's side during low tide to paint the
bottom"
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
Trains are a winter sport

Never run downwind?
 

Simple,

Your statement is absolutely wrong and completely off the wall. It is
wrong in theory and it is wrong in actuality.

Neal, before you take this into a argument, please look at a copy of the
polar performance curve for mono hulls. You will see that for a wind
blowing 5 knts or less, your vessel cannot exceed the speed of the wind
going dead downwind. Neal, now look at the speed of the vessel sail at a
150 degree angle (30 deg delta) a pick up of a knt and a half. A .583%
increase in speed)

I picked the 30 Deg angle because it is easier to visualize. ( 30x60
triangle) Now visualize a unit of travel directly downwind and the
distance of the vessel at 150 for the same unit of time. You will see
that the vessel at 30 degrees off dead downwind traveled .593 times
farther. Now, I know the base of the triangle isn't quite equal to twice
the distance traveled but close enough for this old beached sailor. So,
the vessel off the wind is .093% farther downwind and time to gybe back
to course. Now sailing a course of 210 deg, traveling 1.593 times faster
and will be back on the original course 18% farther downwind than the
boat slogging along dead downwind.

Now if you had ever raced in the Cruising Class ( No Flying Sail) you
would know this to be true. I know you don't want to agree that a boat
can exceed the speed of the wind going downwind but you are DEAD WRONG.
I've tried before to tell you the things you can do to increase off wind
speed but I see you are still living in the dark about it.

Don't lead the newbees astray with your lack of knowledge and experience
but many,many times I've returned to the Leeward mark with large gains
over boats traveling dead downwind wing and wing.

Ole Thom

Never run downwind?
 

WHAT!!!??? ... you can't careen a fin keeler???.... Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha ha!

You fin keelers are so funny....... and insignificant!

CM

"SAIL LOCO" wrote in message
...
| Like the author of "Cruising the Racer and Racing the Cruiser" says "the
only
| reason to buy a full keel boat is if you expect to be able to visit remote
| islands and need to be able to lay it on it's side during low tide to
paint the
| bottom"
| S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
| Trains are a winter sport

Never run downwind?
 

I've careened my shoal draft fin-keeler many a time. Give me
four feet of tide and a good sandbar and I can slap a coat of
bottom paint on in no time.


"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message ...
WHAT!!!??? ... you can't careen a fin keeler???.... Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha ha!

You fin keelers are so funny....... and insignificant!

CM

"SAIL LOCO" wrote in message
...
| Like the author of "Cruising the Racer and Racing the Cruiser" says "the
only
| reason to buy a full keel boat is if you expect to be able to visit remote
| islands and need to be able to lay it on it's side during low tide to
paint the
| bottom"
| S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
| Trains are a winter sport

Never run downwind?
 

I'm talking spinnakers here big boy! Only a fool eschews a
spinnaker on a downwind run.


"Thomas Stewart" wrote in message ...
Simple,

Your statement is absolutely wrong and completely off the wall. It is
wrong in theory and it is wrong in actuality.

Neal, before you take this into a argument, please look at a copy of the
polar performance curve for mono hulls. You will see that for a wind
blowing 5 knts or less, your vessel cannot exceed the speed of the wind
going dead downwind. Neal, now look at the speed of the vessel sail at a
150 degree angle (30 deg delta) a pick up of a knt and a half. A .583%
increase in speed)

I picked the 30 Deg angle because it is easier to visualize. ( 30x60
triangle) Now visualize a unit of travel directly downwind and the
distance of the vessel at 150 for the same unit of time. You will see
that the vessel at 30 degrees off dead downwind traveled .593 times
farther. Now, I know the base of the triangle isn't quite equal to twice
the distance traveled but close enough for this old beached sailor. So,
the vessel off the wind is .093% farther downwind and time to gybe back
to course. Now sailing a course of 210 deg, traveling 1.593 times faster
and will be back on the original course 18% farther downwind than the
boat slogging along dead downwind.

Now if you had ever raced in the Cruising Class ( No Flying Sail) you
would know this to be true. I know you don't want to agree that a boat
can exceed the speed of the wind going downwind but you are DEAD WRONG.
I've tried before to tell you the things you can do to increase off wind
speed but I see you are still living in the dark about it.

Don't lead the newbees astray with your lack of knowledge and experience
but many,many times I've returned to the Leeward mark with large gains
over boats traveling dead downwind wing and wing.

Ole Thom

Never run downwind?
 

Give me
four feet of tide and a good sandbar and I can slap a coat of
bottom paint on in no time.

And right over the slime and brown furry stuff I'll bet.


S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
Trains are a winter sport

Never run downwind?
 

,but I still clean it with a little scrub brush
every two weeks just to retain that fine, competitive edge that
allows me to handily beat J/24s and stay even with most 50-
foot cruising boats.


LOL........... Stop!
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
Trains are a winter sport